I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
Ghere’s no question about that. None. They love to throw out first and foremost they’re Giants fans. Bullshit. Difference of opinions are what make forums tick. Still “holding out” with proof right in front of them, is totally about being right. Totally.
He always had elite talent. He’s not doing anything his season that we haven’t seen before. I would actually say that he’s just beginning to scratch the surface, and can be better than players like Allen or Burrow if we’re able to put a strong supporting cast around him.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
How sad must they be that being right on an anonymous message board would be that important to them. At least they had a 3 year run where they could pound their chest. Glad most of them left, the board is better with them gone.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
What a shitty way to live (imo). Must suck to not be able to enjoy watching our QB play well and develop. Imagine next year when he puts up bigger stats and the haters have nothing left to hate about (but they'll prolly carry on).
and certainly recognized the difficult circumstances he has had to start his career. Wanted to let it play out for the season.
Very proud of this young man for battling and keeping at it. Hoping for another big day Saturday.
I remember Strahan talking about Eli and how the outside sees the "ah schucks" side but on the field he was a stone cold killer and competitor. Young Daniel showing some of this imv.
RE: You can't silence Producer, you can only hope to contain him
I can't disagree that Jones looks better than ever the last 2-3 weeks. MAybe it's a combo of Hodgins and the WRs emerging and the OL...but whatever it is, you watch the replay of Sunday's game without the stress component, Jones looks like a super star in that game. I know the D sucks...he still looked like a super star. He runs like Cam Newton and his throws are virtually perfect. His pocket presence was otherworldly. The game REALLY slowed down for Jones on Sunday.
My god imagine he's this good...
RE: You can't silence Producer, you can only hope to contain him
I use the "Mute" browser extension to Edge. It suppresses all of Producer's comments so that they never even appear (unless copied by another poster in a comment).
Count me as a BBI person who never thought Daniel Jones
could reach this level. Even at mid season I wasn't convinced.
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
He always had elite talent. He’s not doing anything his season that we haven’t seen before. I would actually say that he’s just beginning to scratch the surface, and can be better than players like Allen or Burrow if we’re able to put a strong supporting cast around him.
He always had elite talent. He’s not doing anything his season that we haven’t seen before. I would actually say that he’s just beginning to scratch the surface, and can be better than players like Allen or Burrow if we’re able to put a strong supporting cast around him.
I love your optimism! Jones has certainly proved me wrong this season, but to say he’s always had elite talent would go against nearly every scouting report of Jones ever written. I’d say his running ability was always elite. Outside of that, I’d be curious to hear what features were always known to be elite.
RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
RE: Count me as a BBI person who never thought Daniel Jones
could reach this level. Even at mid season I wasn't convinced.
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
Well said. I feel the same way. Never a "hater," but definitely a "doubter." Very glad to be proven wrong.
RE: RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
In comment 16000783 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 16000754 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
Fair enough, so you are acknowledging that there was a significant progression from Jones. I agree with you, but then I also understand why people didn't see it and still need to see more. Jones playing at this level is still very new, it's not like he's been this good all season. The offense was very simple for the majority of the year.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I think the small steps, incremental improvement was there to see. Even under judge, I thought the movement in the pocket and reduction in turnovers was constantly improving. The processing stuff was harder to see. When I watched the all 22 The garrett judge offense was so bad. All the routes broke at the same time. There really was not a progression. Prople saw jones hold the ball or not throw on time and attributed that to whatever they were inclined to attribute that to. But really there was nobody open. Defense sat on our shitty curls and waited. When we did complete passes they were highly contested and tight as a drum. Every throw was tough and there was nothing schemed to be easy. So the accuracy was always impressive to me.
the coaching, play design, and play calling were really terrible. Coupled with how lacking we were in other areas i don't think anyone could have thrived in the situation. Coaching really matters. Also to some degree, what the offense looked like without Jones was very telling. Glenon is not great, but he had proven to be reasonably competent in several other stops. He was completely lost and the O was useless
After that, We all saw flashes. Consistency was mostly the issues. I think parcells said something to the effect if i have seen them do it, I know they can do it. I felt like it was in there.
Lastly, I know it is often downplayed, but the intangibles are top notch. The menatl and physical toughness is elite. The work ethic, coachability, leadership....all that was beyond reproach.
Then there was just a leap of faith.
full disclosure, i am fairly optimistic by nature. I also don't think anything short of mahommes as a qb is a failure.
RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I pointed it out 1st game preseason (I think it was the 1st?). Daboll has given Jones the greenlight to scramble. Make a one side of the field read and if things look muddy, just start scrambling without hesitation.
really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur only had DJ for his rookie year where he threw 25 TDs to 12 INT. Shurmur did a decent job with DJ but not with the team.
Then the Giants canned Shurmur and brought in Judge.
This is were DJ went down hill with no or horrible QB coaching the next two years. DJ had potential his rookie year that's why we were calling him Danny Dimes but Judge almost ruined him. With Daboll, he coached him up and we now see what DJ can do.
RE: RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I think the small steps, incremental improvement was there to see. Even under judge, I thought the movement in the pocket and reduction in turnovers was constantly improving. The processing stuff was harder to see. When I watched the all 22 The garrett judge offense was so bad. All the routes broke at the same time. There really was not a progression. Prople saw jones hold the ball or not throw on time and attributed that to whatever they were inclined to attribute that to. But really there was nobody open. Defense sat on our shitty curls and waited. When we did complete passes they were highly contested and tight as a drum. Every throw was tough and there was nothing schemed to be easy. So the accuracy was always impressive to me.
the coaching, play design, and play calling were really terrible. Coupled with how lacking we were in other areas i don't think anyone could have thrived in the situation. Coaching really matters. Also to some degree, what the offense looked like without Jones was very telling. Glenon is not great, but he had proven to be reasonably competent in several other stops. He was completely lost and the O was useless
After that, We all saw flashes. Consistency was mostly the issues. I think parcells said something to the effect if i have seen them do it, I know they can do it. I felt like it was in there.
Lastly, I know it is often downplayed, but the intangibles are top notch. The menatl and physical toughness is elite. The work ethic, coachability, leadership....all that was beyond reproach.
Then there was just a leap of faith.
full disclosure, i am fairly optimistic by nature. I also don't think anything short of mahommes as a qb is a failure.
Great post. The intangibles are top notch. He's such a great character guy to have lead your team. It's like our Favre to Rodgers, but its Eli to Jones.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
The emergence of a reliable WR, Hodgins, combined with the coaching staff opening up the playbook more. Passing more on first and second downs, has made a difference.
If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
I think Kafka, Daboll and Jones trust the receivers more now than they did earlier in the season, so the play calling is less conservative and Jones is letting it rip a little more into tight windows that he might've avoided earlier.
really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Shurmur wasn’t a great head coach, but his offense wasn’t that bad. Jones also made progress playing for him outside of turnovers which is not uncommon for a rookie. Shurmur’s biggest issue was Bettcher as DC. He was fucking horrible. He made Patrick Graham look like Belichick.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
Ghere’s no question about that. None. They love to throw out first and foremost they’re Giants fans. Bullshit. Difference of opinions are what make forums tick. Still “holding out” with proof right in front of them, is totally about being right. Totally.
Apologies if I’m reading this wrong, but are you implying that fans with a different opinion of Jones aren’t real giants fans?
RE: RE: RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
In comment 16000783 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
In comment 16000754 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
Fair enough, so you are acknowledging that there was a significant progression from Jones. I agree with you, but then I also understand why people didn't see it and still need to see more. Jones playing at this level is still very new, it's not like he's been this good all season. The offense was very simple for the majority of the year.
Actually, he HAS BEEN good all season. He’s been great of late..
really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Shurmur wasn’t a great head coach, but his offense wasn’t that bad. Jones also made progress playing for him outside of turnovers which is not uncommon for a rookie. Shurmur’s biggest issue was Bettcher as DC. He was fucking horrible. He made Patrick Graham look like Belichick.
Thats the best support system DJ and the offense had. Shurmur was a decent but not great offensive guy and the receivers were right about average. Still led the league in tight window throws which is sometimes an indictment on the talent and sometimes the passing concepts or both. This year with lesser talent at WR for much of the year the Daboll/Kafka concepts are getting guys open with a bit more frequency.
by the definition it fits - someone who doesn’t want to give someone else credit for something or that they disagree with. There’s a whole lot of people that fit this description.
RE: RE: Jones has convinced me that he's deserving of a contract.
These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
The emergence of a reliable WR, Hodgins, combined with the coaching staff opening up the playbook more. Passing more on first and second downs, has made a difference.
If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
I think Kafka, Daboll and Jones trust the receivers more now than they did earlier in the season, so the play calling is less conservative and Jones is letting it rip a little more into tight windows that he might've avoided earlier.
Let's not forget the pass pro has become much more consistent as well even though Neal is still struggling a bit.
by the definition it fits - someone who doesn’t want to give someone else credit for something or that they disagree with. There’s a whole lot of people that fit this description.
The “hate” for DJ and for “SB” stems from their conviction they shouldn’t have been drafted that high and they won’t BUDGE off that conviction. They can’t or won’t move beyond that. It’s one thing to not think where they were picked wasn’t the prudent move, it’s another to not move the needle on that conviction no matter how well they perform.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
He could win the next 10 Super Bowls and some of these schmucks will still say he's no good
Here's some fairly relevant advice no one asked for
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
Let's not forget the pass pro has become much more consistent as well even though Neal is still struggling a bit.
Pass pro has improved, but I think part of that is also the play calling. It's easier to pass protect on first and 2nd down, than it is on obvious passing 3rd downs.
The play calling has been much less predictable the last few games, which helps the OL.
for everyone who's crapping on him for not being able to change his opinion and obsessed with being right (which let's face it, is who most of you guys are referring to when you say "some people just want to be right all the time), consider that Terps was touting Jones earlier than almost everyone and... well, changed his opinion when Jones started playing poorly. Sell me on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Certainly this place is a lot less interesting and enjoyable without people like Terps, FMiC, and others.
for everyone who's crapping on him for not being able to change his opinion and obsessed with being right (which let's face it, is who most of you guys are referring to when you say "some people just want to be right all the time), consider that Terps was touting Jones earlier than almost everyone and... well, changed his opinion when Jones started playing poorly. Sell me on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Let’s go further to try to make the point: Even if Terps felt that DJ was greater than sliced bread way back when, what he has put many of us through on almost every thread, saying the same fucking thing almost daily for 2-3 years, made this forum unreadable and unenjoyable a bunch of the time.
Even when we wanted to read opinions of posters (pro and con) on a given thread, he was always friggin’ there and even if you tried to scroll past his comments, his bullshit almost always hit your eye on the way passed it..
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
That’s absolutely a priority. There are people whose initial reactions to a remarkable season of overachievement are to post call-put threads. That’s when you know you like arguing about the team more than the team itself!
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
RE: Count me as a BBI person who never thought Daniel Jones
could reach this level. Even at mid season I wasn't convinced.
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
Same, I saw it a few weeks before you, but this last stretch has made me REALLY confident in what I have seen.
That dressing down that Daboll gave him after he threw a careless pick in the endzone sure seemed like a definitive moment that, at the very least, indicated how Daboll was going to coach Jones.
I think the improvement is sustainable and not a hot streak. A lot of things have clicked, partly because the OL and receiving corps have all improved, too.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Nope, those people suck. But if it were me I would have handled it with Eric like a big boy. And if it were me I’d actually engage with other posters ideas and drop the act. He used to be a rational poster with good ideas but then he went full tilt on that persona and it ruined a lot of good discussion. Doesn’t mean he should be banned, but it does mean you’ll take a lot of shit.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
I guess it depends on the definition of toxicity or what kind of toxicity annoys you the most, because I still see a lot of the kind that makes me shake my head.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Nope, those people suck. But if it were me I would have handled it with Eric like a big boy. And if it were me I’d actually engage with other posters ideas and drop the act. He used to be a rational poster with good ideas but then he went full tilt on that persona and it ruined a lot of good discussion. Doesn’t mean he should be banned, but it does mean you’ll take a lot of shit.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
Agreed, well said. And for the record, he shouldn’t be banned. Torture isn’t a bannable offense
I personally miss the BBI where strong stances like Go Terps's view on Jones were the norm and not the exception.
There was a time on this site where his opinions wouldn't have registered on the radar of stubbornness. Oh well.
As far as Jones -- I think many undersell the personal growth and commitment he's displayed this year. The principals at the team sure didn't think it was a given, this no 5th year option.
I think among the group of sane posters you have BB56 on one end who was confident under Daboll could grow into this guy, and JonC on the other who was skeptical.
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
That’s already happened. And if Jones shits the bed on Saturday, then the haters will be back out. If you don’t believe that, then you haven’t been on BBI long.
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
That’s already happened. And if Jones shits the bed on Saturday, then the haters will be back out. If you don’t believe that, then you haven’t been on BBI long.
You’ve seen gloaters or just thrilled fans who believe they have their franchise guy and can now turn their attention to discussing holes that need to be filled or stitched?
RE: RE: RE: Go Terps has been pretty quiet lately.
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Certainly this place is a lot less interesting and enjoyable without people like Terps, FMiC, and others.
I miss those two guys as well, and it's not like I agreed with everything they said.
Every few years people claim this site isn't what it used to be, claim unpopular opinions get shut down, etc. Yet miraculously, people with negative or pessimistic opinions still get to post on this board without repercussions!
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
Every few years people claim this site isn't what it used to be, claim unpopular opinions get shut down, etc. Yet miraculously, people with negative or pessimistic opinions still get to post on this board without repercussions!
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
I’m sure you are well aware of how strongly I and others believed in DJ, especially when Dabes took over. I gave many reasons why I thought he could be a franchise QB and have a bunch of his flaws corrected with sustained coaching. STILL, even I stopped posting the same damn opinions ad nauseam as I felt there was nothing more to add and there wasn’t. I felt time would tell.
Every few years people claim this site isn't what it used to be, claim unpopular opinions get shut down, etc. Yet miraculously, people with negative or pessimistic opinions still get to post on this board without repercussions!
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
I’m sure you are well aware of how strongly I and others believed in DJ, especially when Dabes took over. I gave many reasons why I thought he could be a franchise QB and have a bunch of his flaws corrected with sustained coaching. STILL, even I stopped posting the same damn opinions ad nauseam as I felt there was nothing more to add and there wasn’t. I felt time would tell.
Absolutely. I think we know where (and with who) the extremes lie...
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
I didn’t know this about Terps but I know there is one mod here who sometimes goes overboard in this type of thing.
Its hard to bet on a quarterback becoming great when he doesn’t necessarily have an elite trait. Truth be told I flipped when the Giants picked him and watched 12-15 Duke games and talked myself into him. Thats certainly not gloating b/c I was off the wagon more than once.
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
Its hard to bet on a quarterback becoming great when he doesn’t necessarily have an elite trait. Truth be told I flipped when the Giants picked him and watched 12-15 Duke games and talked myself into him. Thats certainly not gloating b/c I was off the wagon more than once.
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
Danny Ice
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Have to admit, sounds dead on. If you were able to fake your handle I would have bought it.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Have to admit, sounds dead on. If you were able to fake your handle I would have bought it.
Well, when you see it every day, it's not too hard to replicate...
Its hard to bet on a quarterback becoming great when he doesn’t necessarily have an elite trait. Truth be told I flipped when the Giants picked him and watched 12-15 Duke games and talked myself into him. Thats certainly not gloating b/c I was off the wagon more than once.
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
IMO his uniqueness is that he runs and throws equally well. Some QBs rely on one or the other, but Jones seems to be truly a dual threat. Maybe his passing is like #12, and his running is like #3 (among QBs), but that is a good combo
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
I think you nailed it. Just need to add some condescension.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Wow, that was awesome and probably spot on..
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I do miss Terps -- the Terps of 10 years ago. He was opinionated and acerbic, but you could engage and debate with him. (And for the record, I was OK with the Giants letting OBJ go, even though I knew it would hurt us in the short term.)
Sometime during our recent run of futility, something snapped (fair enough, those Giants teams would drive anyone nuts), and he became a caricature of himself. Someone no better than a Skip Bayless, to be frank, shouting the same opinions from the rooftops over and over, contributing no forward momentum to any discussions, refusing to look at issues from even a slightly different angle.
So call us obsessed over Terps, if you want. Other posters on this thread miss him and want him back, are they also fixated on him? I do know that I miss the old Terps and wouldn't mind having him back.
He always had elite talent. He’s not doing anything his season that we haven’t seen before. I would actually say that he’s just beginning to scratch the surface, and can be better than players like Allen or Burrow if we’re able to put a strong supporting cast around him.
I love your optimism! Jones has certainly proved me wrong this season, but to say he’s always had elite talent would go against nearly every scouting report of Jones ever written. I’d say his running ability was always elite. Outside of that, I’d be curious to hear what features were always known to be elite.
I think there are four basic QB attributes. In order of importance:
1) Head.- handle the speed and read.
2) Heart. - work hard and play hard
3) Arm. - make all the throws with accuracy and pace
4) Legs. - move in the pocket (most important); make plays by running (more important than it used to be)
To be elite you have to be elite at the first two and at least very good at #3. You can skip running ability as long as you can move in the pocket.
DJ has, by all accounts, always had elite heart. His arm strength has always been good to very good, with excellent accuracy. check and check.
His running ability is elite but there was concern about his pocket movement. Until recently undecided. Looks elite or close to it now.
The only really big question was his "head". Always the hardest to figure out, since we don't know what the coaches are asking for. Watched the Minn game twice. Didn't see a single mental mistake. Made a number of throws off of more than one read or while on the run. Check?
Looks like he could be elite on all 4. The Giants have never had that in the Super Bowl era. And most of this was visible his entire career here.
People don't want to hear this, but he has already had the best first four seasons of any Giants QB in SB era, not counting the playoffs. While nothing short of a SB run will compare to Eli's 4th season playoffs, DJ's game on Sunday may have been the best game by a QB in Giants history. Better than Phil in the SB. Better than Eli in S.F. although very different than both. If you think Eli was elite, than DJ is absolutely looking like he will also be elite. If you think Eli was a top QB but not truly elite, then your definition is narrow enough to exclude DJ.
And this was predictable based on his past performances. Go back and watch last year's games. He played really well and was hampered by bad scheme and bad talent. I am not new to this bandwagon. I wanted to pick up his option and thought the only reason not to is if you thought he was still hurt. While Sunday was better than my expectations, it was not a surprise to see him play that way. And he was pretty clearly the best QB on wild card weekend or at least close.
Eh, I’m a ‘dance with the girl you brought to prom’ kinda guy. I think this current group of BBIers is sufficient to argue with :)
I hear you. BBI is like a bar, sometimes you reflect back on the guys who used to hang out here, and whatever his faults, Terps initiated some good discussions back in the day... but anyway, back to regularly scheduled programming.
I do miss Terps -- the Terps of 10 years ago. He was opinionated and acerbic, but you could engage and debate with him. (And for the record, I was OK with the Giants letting OBJ go, even though I knew it would hurt us in the short term.)
Sometime during our recent run of futility, something snapped (fair enough, those Giants teams would drive anyone nuts), and he became a caricature of himself. Someone no better than a Skip Bayless, to be frank, shouting the same opinions from the rooftops over and over, contributing no forward momentum to any discussions, refusing to look at issues from even a slightly different angle.
So call us obsessed over Terps, if you want. Other posters on this thread miss him and want him back, are they also fixated on him? I do know that I miss the old Terps and wouldn't mind having him back.
The old Terps “died” long ago. He was my favorite poster, or one of..The one I abhor (the online persona, not him as I do not know him personally) became ponderous, unreasonable and repetitive..Not the guy I loved interacting with, whether we disagreed at times or not..
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Yes... this was literally the only problem anyone had with Go Terps.
by the definition it fits - someone who doesn’t want to give someone else credit for something or that they disagree with. There’s a whole lot of people that fit this description.
The “hate” for DJ and for “SB” stems from their conviction they shouldn’t have been drafted that high and they won’t BUDGE off that conviction. They can’t or won’t move beyond that. It’s one thing to not think where they were picked wasn’t the prudent move, it’s another to not move the needle on that conviction no matter how well they perform.
I'm getting a bit tired of all the "DJ Haters" bullshit being thrown around lately.
All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. Mind you I'm not one of the "haters", I was sitting on the fence and didn't participate in those DJ wars, so I don't have a particular position to defend. I will admit I didn't like the pick, but felt he showed enough as a rookie that there might be some there there.
Almost every single person derided as a "Hater" has been praising Jones. Almost every single "Hater" has publicly changed their minds on him. Just because they aren't falling over themselves calling him the next coming, like many of the polyannas here, doesn't make them less happy about the progress. It just means that these are all steps. There is still more for Jones to prove. Can he do it against a top notch defense in a pressure game? We will find out in 3 days time. Can he do it next year after DCs have a year of tape on him? It is very legitimate to still have questions about him, but still be delighted with the progress and hopeful that he can continue to grow. Let's face nobody, but nobody saw this kind of growth coming this year.
What I see is a bunch of people who were dug in during all the Gettleman debates, who switched their allegiance to DJ. And no many of them have turned with a vengeance on those who dared to criticize Dave Get<thefuckouttahere>, accusing the critics of being dug in, when they themselves were far more dug in on DG, and far more wrong and even now won't admit it. They are gaslighting people by accusing them of not changing their position when it is really they who have not changed and never really admitted they were wrong. They are trying to use DJ as some sort of wedge to exonerate their awful take on DG. Get over it. DG was awful, terrible, and every other pejorative adjective. Even if he wasn't a disaster at the draft, his drafts were only ok... Not great.
From 2018 - Only Barkley is left, and I still don't think it was a good choice
2019 looks like it will turn out pretty damn good, but still had misses like Baker, but 3 1sts and stting near the top at #6
2020 He picked Thomas who was my first choice as well. McKinney has been good and some quality snaps from Holmes. Also looking like a good draft again sitting near the top at #4
2021 is looking like a bust of draft, KT is gone, Ojulari and most of the rest just can't stay healthy.
So 2 good ones, 2 bad ones. Meh. And he was always at the top of the draft... What makes his drafting worse, is the he had no plan for building a team. It was just random. He waited way to long to start picking OL for example.
So before you start pointing fingers and calling people haters, realize there are three more fingers pointing at yourself.
The reality, there are no Jones haters here. Even Producer praised his performance.
Nobody on this site who is by definition an extremely passionate Giants fan has ever hated Daniel Jones. Many of us doubted that he could ever lead us to a playoff victory. For some, like me, that was as recently as last week. He did it. Good for DJ. He deserves every bit of the praise coming his way now.
And every bit of financial reward. But to whom much is given, much is to be expected. And for the first time in his four years here, the expectations should now be high that DJ can perform at a commensurate level with these expectations. And I can think of no better test for a Giants quarterback than meeting in their building our arch-rival who happens to be the number one seed in the conference with the top passing defense in the league.
The Eagles will no doubt be geared to stop Barkley and will challenge DJ in the same way the Vikings did last week. So here again, DJ will need to rise up and meet the challenge. If he wins this game and performs well, my guess is there will be little debate about DJ going forward.
If he doesn't perform well, I suspect the debate on DJ will be litigated over and over again until he hoists the Lombardi. When he does well, he will be praised. When he does poorly he will be criticized. Why people on this site believe this is a bad thing, I have no idea. But the notion that the critics should remain silent cowering in the corner sucking their thumbs with shame that they ever doubted DJ when he performs poorly is comical silliness.
Ask the Cardinals, Broncos and Browns fans what they think about the contracts given to their quarterbacks these days in relation to their lack of success. I suspect they are screaming with fury more loudly than ever these days...
for everyone who's crapping on him for not being able to change his opinion and obsessed with being right (which let's face it, is who most of you guys are referring to when you say "some people just want to be right all the time), consider that Terps was touting Jones earlier than almost everyone and... well, changed his opinion when Jones started playing poorly. Sell me on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
Lol, and then he spent the next 3 years absolutely ripping the guy to shreds every single day on the message board.
We even had the owner of this site say “Terps was right” because Terps had done it so many times that he started to convince people that Jones was terrible.
The guy pretends to know stuff about football that other fans don’t, and he single handily was the worst poster on this website before he left. He made things less enjoyable, hijacked every single thread and made it about Jones somehow. He even said once that he really wanted to see what Jake Fromm could do and predicted that it wouldn’t be that much worse than Jones. He literally actually said that. Good riddance.
I took shit for years for defending Gettleman. I eventually got over it and said yeah, he’s bad.
It’s amazing to me that people just cannot accept the fact that they were absolutely dead wrong about Jones. Not only that, but the way you praise him now is so littered with “well he was great but let’s keep it up…” as if to say, I’m keeping this in my back pocket in case he sucks again.
All of you guys embarrassed yourselves over Jones. Stop pretending that you didn’t spend countless hours on this board shitting on him. Time to get over it. It’s fine. Nobody cares anymore - just move along.
Malik Willis can’t literally throw a football and yet Terps said it was embarrassing that the Giants wouldn’t take a chance on someone like him because clearly his upside “on a rookie deal” was so much better than Jones.
The guy was a terrible poster. And then he left, because of how terrible all his predictions ended up being. Couldn’t even face the music, which makes him even worse. Sorry, but true.
The worst!
Agreed, hijacked EVERY DJ thread for years.
That guy can go f&*k off.
Now he wants to be friends and drink hot coco and share s’mores.
😂
It’s one thing to post an opinion - but multiple times on nearly every thread for years is over the top.
Can you imagine sitting next to this guy at a giants game and he tells you 450,000 times how much Jones sucks for years. This guy is clueless.
The worst!
Agreed, hijacked EVERY DJ thread for years.
That guy can go f&*k off.
Now he wants to be friends and drink hot coco and share s’mores.
😂
It’s one thing to post an opinion - but multiple times on nearly every thread for years is over the top.
Can you imagine sitting next to this guy at a giants game and he tells you 450,000 times how much Jones sucks for years. This guy is clueless.
That's ok, mac. I don't want your fucking smores. I'm talking about civil discourse. I'm not looking to be your pal. I can tell from your unfunny, self-satisfied and presumptuous drivel, you're not my kinda guy either.
I will do my best to broker a deal with my wonderful friends in the DJFC and the BBI Monolith Society once this BBI Civial War ends with Daniel Jones... ;)
I took shit for years for defending Gettleman. I eventually got over it and said yeah, he’s bad.
It’s amazing to me that people just cannot accept the fact that they were absolutely dead wrong about Jones. Not only that, but the way you praise him now is so littered with “well he was great but let’s keep it up…” as if to say, I’m keeping this in my back pocket in case he sucks again.
All of you guys embarrassed yourselves over Jones. Stop pretending that you didn’t spend countless hours on this board shitting on him. Time to get over it. It’s fine. Nobody cares anymore - just move along.
I'm calling BS. You never got over being wrong about DG.
Just 2 days ago you were on here trying to relitigate his legacy saying he deserves credit for building this team through his drafts. Which is utter nonsense.
And you of all people to throw stones at people like bw, terps and producer when you do the exact same, just in the opposite direction.
I don't always agree with them (for example, I did think they were too harsh on Jones, I wasn't convinced one way or the other, there were flashes), but at least terps and bw try to bring some facts to the table, and try to be thoughtful. Rather than vomiting their completely unsupported nonsense opinions over and over just as often or even moreso.
McL, you and others need to read what I’ve been saying. Clearly, you don’t really care to remember or you just want to keep saying this “DG legacy” thing as if to have that in your pocket as some ding against me.
As I said a million fucking times, DG was bad. But he drafted some GREAT players, which we have now. But everything else was very bad. Get that opinion through your skull because that is what I’ve been saying.
And no, for the last time, Terps did not add “facts” to the discussion. All he added was “Jones is horrible and will always be horrible.” He was a horrific poster and this message board is better without him.
but I backed off for a while because of the insistency, the certainty, and the non-stop criticism by the DJ critics left no room to breath. Mind you - these were not criticisms that in any way were couched - they were only stated as FACTS.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
but I backed off for a while because of the insistency, the certainty, and the non-stop criticism by the DJ critics left no room to breath. Mind you - these were not criticisms that in any way were couched - they were only stated as FACTS.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
Dan - good to hear from you man. How you feeling about Saturday?
but I backed off for a while because of the insistency, the certainty, and the non-stop criticism by the DJ critics left no room to breath. Mind you - these were not criticisms that in any way were couched - they were only stated as FACTS.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
I also get tired of the idiocy of coming on football fan site for armchair fans and debating topics but infusing every debate point as the other party stating facts not opinions.
JFC
Get over yourself. With the exception a handful of insiders that have real inside information, there is nobody here, and I mean nobody that is doin anything but stating opinions. Pretty much everything you see here IS AN OPINION. Getting bent out of shape because it is stated with force is immature and intellectually dishonest.
I often got a accused of stating things as facts. One of the reasons I don't post here as much anymore. I will research a topic, present my opinion (always making it clear in was my opinion) but making a very strong case with backing evidence... People who held a different opinion and didn't want to give it up would constantly accuse me of stating my opinions as facts. Even though it was blatently false, and there in black and white.
Accusing people of stating opinions as fact is intellectually dishonest. It just means you are too lazy to go find the evidence that is going to support you opinion. So again, the next time you accuse somebody of stating opinion as fact, remember it is a message board, it is all opinion, and when you point htat finger there are 3 more point back at yourself!
One level of consistency on this forum is the lack of personal responsibility. Most criticism is pointed at others who then point right back at them, which seems quite common with a lot of topics. It is mostly everyone else’s fault, it’s them not me, etc. I think very very few times is anyone truly innocent when it gets nasty around here which is often. I certainly have been a part of it and have done my share of finger pointing while remaining quiet about my responsibilities.
I think it’s time to let him go guys. I know it’s hard. Maybe once a year, we can have a special day to remember him, and post our most hated memory. But it’s time to move forward. It’s what he would have wanted.
but I backed off for a while because of the insistency, the certainty, and the non-stop criticism by the DJ critics left no room to breath. Mind you - these were not criticisms that in any way were couched - they were only stated as FACTS.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
Great post and I’m done..As I said the other day, everything I’ve said about how awful Terps was, I said to his face and agreed to not discuss anything with each other again..
And Dan you’re 100% correct, their opinions were most often STATED AS FACTS, no matter what they try to couch now..
Again, I’m done with the vitriol and will just revel in the joy our franchise QB has brought to me and others
I personally miss the BBI where strong stances like Go Terps's view on Jones were the norm and not the exception.
There was a time on this site where his opinions wouldn't have registered on the radar of stubbornness. Oh well.
As far as Jones -- I think many undersell the personal growth and commitment he's displayed this year. The principals at the team sure didn't think it was a given, this no 5th year option.
I think among the group of sane posters you have BB56 on one end who was confident under Daboll could grow into this guy, and JonC on the other who was skeptical.
Both perfectly defendable views going into 2022.
terps posts were based on emotion...
... To be sure he backed them up with analytics... But they were angry emotion.
If that's not accurate then it was simply angry emotion towards anyone who did not believe the same way that he did.
One level of consistency on this forum is the lack of personal responsibility. Most criticism is pointed at others who then point right back at them, which seems quite common with a lot of topics. It is mostly everyone else’s fault, it’s them not me, etc. I think very very few times is anyone truly innocent when it gets nasty around here which is often. I certainly have been a part of it and have done my share of finger pointing while remaining quiet about my responsibilities.
That's ok, mac. I don't want your fucking smores. I'm talking about civil discourse. I'm not looking to be your pal. I can tell from your unfunny, self-satisfied and presumptuous drivel, you're not my kinda guy either.
Even the owner of the site has called you out for being an asshole.
People stopped posting here because of your constant heckling.
So, fuck off!
When this team wins nfc east titles and a super bowl with about 12 or so of his players. And those 12 all flirting in the elite player category. You know who they all are.
We just need to let some more time elapse. Give it 2-3 years. His players are finally starting to take off, albeit 1-2 years later than we had hoped. Coaching is king.
The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
And granted, DG was here a long time so he needed to have a few more singles and less big strike outs, and he doesn’t get pts for the head coaches hired here under his stewardship, but the legacy players (10 or so) sure will help.
The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
I agree with you BB56. They had no personal experience with him. No idea how he dealt with in game stress, how well he could learn new stuff, like their system.
Did you read the piece about how Daboll leaked the offensive plays to Wink in preseason so that they always had the right defense. Daboll wanted to see how he handled adversity.
They needed that up close personal touch with him to make a good decision.
I’ve come around to the view BW has always had — BBI is better when it’s a little heated.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
Exactly right, Christian. It is an opinion forum. The forum is best when every opinion is presented. I have become a much better student of the game because of BBI - both for the incredible expertise of many posters as well as the diversity of the many points of view. I don't understand why people complain about it getting heated. Isn't that why were here? Isn't that what makes compelling discussion - the free expression of different opinions on interesting football topics?
Whether you liked Terps or not, he was an interesting and knowledgable poster, challenged conventional wisdom and presented a balancing point of view. No one would remember him, let alone constantly bring him up on these threads, if that wasn't the case...
The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. .
It’s hard to believe you can say this with a straight face. It’s also a completely false statement. All those haters have just shifted their commentary to backhanded compliments. Please show me one example where one of those haters stated (or even insinuated) they were thrilled to death that DJ is playing well.
“DJ played well BUT it was against a bad team.”
“DJ played well BUT missed some spots.”
“DJ played well BUT………”
Better yet, instead of buying into DJ and giving credit where credit is due, they mostly just sidestep being called out and make a corny joke. You can clearly see it in this tread as well. It’s disingenuous. I’d respect it more if they just came out and said “I was wrong”. But that’s just not the world we live in today.
Not a DJ fan right off the bat? That’s okay. But logic indicates that QBs need time to develop even in the perfect environment. DJ was in the worst possible situation to develop his first three years year but still showed growth and improvement. A lot of the railing away from haters the past few years was void of logic but we all had to suffer through it.
For the large amount of fans that stayed the course and suffered through years of their bullshit…I’m fine with some gloating. They’ve earned the right to gloat. And it’s a lot less fucking annoying than the constant negative drivel we’ve had to put up with from these malcontents. Gloat away!
The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
I agree with you - it was absolutely the prudent thing to do. But it will now be viewed in hindsight as a massive error. Again, not his fault since the DJ we saw on Sunday is light years ahead of what he was his first three years...
I’ve come around to the view BW has always had — BBI is better when it’s a little heated.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
I agree with you, as I usually do. You’re a fantastic poster. The only problem is that there are some posters here that think they are football savants and don’t know shit about football. Some of them on this thread. It’s tough to have discussions and “learn” anything from arrogant assclowns that think they are the smartest guys in the room, no matter what room they’re in, but in actuality don’t know shit. They think they do. They try to convince me and you that they do, but they don’t. Arrogance is one of the worst traits to have in a human if you’re trying to have discussions and possibly change minds. The arrogant person will NEVER fold because they think they are better/smarter than the rest. Most of the time they’re just flaming fucking idiots.
the entire football community was ready for Schoen to draft DJs replacement (myself included) so how can anyone in the same breath say it was an error? It was the correct move and now we have a good problem on our hands. And we have the tag as a last resort.
RE: RE: RE: RE: “Haters” doesn’t actually mean hate
All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. .
It’s hard to believe you can say this with a straight face. It’s also a completely false statement. All those haters have just shifted their commentary to backhanded compliments. Please show me one example where one of those haters stated (or even insinuated) they were thrilled to death that DJ is playing well.
“DJ played well BUT it was against a bad team.”
“DJ played well BUT missed some spots.”
“DJ played well BUT………”
Better yet, instead of buying into DJ and giving credit where credit is due, they mostly just sidestep being called out and make a corny joke. You can clearly see it in this tread as well. It’s disingenuous. I’d respect it more if they just came out and said “I was wrong”. But that’s just not the world we live in today.
Not a DJ fan right off the bat? That’s okay. But logic indicates that QBs need time to develop even in the perfect environment. DJ was in the worst possible situation to develop his first three years year but still showed growth and improvement. A lot of the railing away from haters the past few years was void of logic but we all had to suffer through it.
For the large amount of fans that stayed the course and suffered through years of their bullshit…I’m fine with some gloating. They’ve earned the right to gloat. And it’s a lot less fucking annoying than the constant negative drivel we’ve had to put up with from these malcontents. Gloat away!
Who are you talking to?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site that is unhappy that DJ led our beloved team to a Playoff Victory?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site want DJ to fail miserably, and have the Giants mired in the swamp for more years to come?
Are you 100% positive DJ is a finished product and ready to challenge the entire league as one of th top, absolutely elite QBs in this league?
Is there still room for growth with DJ?
Has he proven everything that needs to be proven?
Has he defeated raging top 3 defense?
Has it done it multiple seasons? Can he?
Are you so sure you are willing to put your life on the line for it?
I thought not...
Look. Everybody here, and I mean EVERYBODY HERE, is thrilled that DJ looks like a keeper. But he still has more to prove. Getting the Giants to the playoffs, maybe the divisional round, may be his ceiling. I certainly hope not, but it may be. You cannot discount that possibility. There are some that are aware enough, and not blinded by homerism, to realize there there is more to prove. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It's crazy, I see these debates about how much to pay the guy, and I see the so called DJ Haters putting out the same numbers, sometimes even higher than the so called DJ supporters, and they are still accused of being a hater.
Some fans are just more rational about the path forward. They are still happy and enjoying the ride and rooting for the kid.
So he might think DG deserves more credit than he gets here. It's not my opinion, but if you buy into this team right now, it's a valid viewpoint, or at least defensible. The corps of this winning and surprising team are DG guys, and many are stars.
I don't think he deserves grief over it, even though I don't agree with it.
Cooper, if you go ahead and send me the list of BBIers who won the Daniel Jones debate, I’ll send them their Applebee’s gift cards.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
Apparently you need to be reminded of what you wrote...
Quote:
For the large amount of fans that stayed the course and suffered through years of their bullshit…I’m fine with some gloating. They’ve earned the right to gloat. And it’s a lot less fucking annoying than the constant negative drivel we’ve had to put up with from these malcontents. Gloat away!
There were plenty of posters who were rooting for losses throughout the Jones tenure so that Jones would not be viewed as the QB and so the Giants could take another QB. And actually - as recently as THIS YEAR we had posters rooting for losses so that Schoen wouldn’t think that Jones was good if they somehow started winning, because that would be false hope.
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
And yes, Gettleman should be “viewed better” because of these draft picks developing. To say otherwise is so disingenuous that you’re not actually viewing things rationally.
I’ve said a million times that Gettleman could identify talent actually pretty well. He was just awful at everything else unfortunately.
Eli Manning was a touted #1 overall pick. He had more “talent” than Daniel Jones did. And yet…throughout his entire career would you say how many seasons he actually played like a top 5 quarterback? Probably two times out of 15. 2008 and 2011. That’s it. He was god awful at times, shaky at times, an assassin at times, and overall, he was our QB, the Giants QB that everyone would go to war with.
People are expecting Jones go play like a top 5 QB every fucking week. It’s not realistic. You guys talk out of your ass about this it’s not even fun anymore.
And yes, Gettleman should be “viewed better” because of these draft picks developing. To say otherwise is so disingenuous that you’re not actually viewing things rationally.
I’ve said a million times that Gettleman could identify talent actually pretty well. He was just awful at everything else unfortunately.
Whoops...
You just couldn't do it....
You couldn't stick with Gettleman Sucks...
Say it with me - Gettleman SUCKED, NO IFS, ANDS, or BUTS!
There were plenty of posters who were rooting for losses throughout the Jones tenure so that Jones would not be viewed as the QB and so the Giants could take another QB. And actually - as recently as THIS YEAR we had posters rooting for losses so that Schoen wouldn’t think that Jones was good if they somehow started winning, because that would be false hope.
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
Name these people.
And if Terps is one of them, I have had enough conversations with him to know that he is thrilled.
There were plenty of posters who were rooting for losses throughout the Jones tenure so that Jones would not be viewed as the QB and so the Giants could take another QB. And actually - as recently as THIS YEAR we had posters rooting for losses so that Schoen wouldn’t think that Jones was good if they somehow started winning, because that would be false hope.
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
Bullshit. To say people wanted to be right about Jones and wanted a new QB is one thing. Everyone on this site (except for NINEster and maybe a few others) are Giants fans. No one is rooting for the Giants to lose hoping we will get a new QB.
In comment 16001579 .McL. said:
[
Who are you talking to?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site that is unhappy that DJ led our beloved team to a Playoff Victory?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site want DJ to fail miserably, and have the Giants mired in the swamp for more years to come?
Are you 100% positive DJ is a finished product and ready to challenge the entire league as one of th top, absolutely elite QBs in this league?
Is there still room for growth with DJ?
Has he proven everything that needs to be proven?
Has he defeated raging top 3 defense?
Has it done it multiple seasons? Can he?
Are you so sure you are willing to put your life on the line for it?
I thought not...
Look. Everybody here, and I mean EVERYBODY HERE, is thrilled that DJ looks like a keeper. But he still has more to prove. Getting the Giants to the playoffs, maybe the divisional round, may be his ceiling. I certainly hope not, but it may be. You cannot discount that possibility. There are some that are aware enough, and not blinded by homerism, to realize there there is more to prove. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It's crazy, I see these debates about how much to pay the guy, and I see the so called DJ Haters putting out the same numbers, sometimes even higher than the so called DJ supporters, and they are still accused of being a hater.
Some fans are just more rational about the path forward. They are still happy and enjoying the ride and rooting for the kid. [/quote]
I just don’t believe that we have been reading the same threads over the past few years. No, I don’t believe that EVERYBODY HERE thinks that DJ is a keeper. It doesn’t mean that they are rooting for him to fail, but they certainly don’t want him as our future QB.
It’s funny, I’ve watched the haters twist and turn cherry-picked stats to show over and over and over how DJ will NEVER be even a productive QB. “A pretty good backup QB” was his ceiling we were told. Making every thread absolutely miserable for years. Quick question - where was your soapbox lectures then about being rational fans? But your specific questions are dripping with doubt, even now, so I have a pretty good idea what why those lectures never happened. So spare me with your grandstanding now.
I believe that there are plenty of fans that enjoy the wins despite having DJ as our QB. They will relish in and take the rewards but NEVER admit they were wrong. Or that they “could” be wrong about him. Clearly there is more to prove. More to grow. But the arrow is pointing up - and all you do is question everything.
“Some fans are just more rational about the path forward.“ - This we can agree on. And this would be the many fans that supported DJ while understanding that improvements needed to be made. But saw something in the young QB that was worth going through the growing pains. Those rational fans. Not the haters that pegged him as a bust from day one and screamed it from the mountaintop every day. Having faith in DJ isn’t “homerism” and those fans all understood that there were/are areas to improve. The fact that is still your argument tells me that you aren’t listening.
But I’m glad that you can still enjoy the game given all of your uncertainty about our QB that has done nothing but carry the team the entire season.
NYG07, wrong, try again. Actual posts from actual posters here, citing reasons for wanting a QB/rebuild/better pick, etc, were actively rooting for the Giants to lose games and be terrible.
NYG07, wrong, try again. Actual posts from actual posters here, citing reasons for wanting a QB/rebuild/better pick, etc, were actively rooting for the Giants to lose games and be terrible.
Can you show me a post? There is no chance that at 5-1, people were like fuck this, fuck the playoffs. I hate Daniel Jones. I hope we lose out so we can get a new QB.
Can I show you a post? No, I can’t. Don’t really feel like spending the time honestly. Don’t need to do that to appease you just to prove something that every poster here knows is true.
NYG07, wrong, try again. Actual posts from actual posters here, citing reasons for wanting a QB/rebuild/better pick, etc, were actively rooting for the Giants to lose games and be terrible.
are people really denying that they weren't people who were more invested in seeing Jones fail than to see the team win?
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
NYG07, wrong, try again. Actual posts from actual posters here, citing reasons for wanting a QB/rebuild/better pick, etc, were actively rooting for the Giants to lose games and be terrible.
More fiction from BBI's permanent pledge.
That didn't happen.
Lol. Ok dude. Fuck right off. We had posters rooting for the Giants to lose games so they’d get higher picks ever since 2020, starting with the Chase Young thing. Which, wow, wouldn’t you know it, they were wrong about that too.
Posters literally have said, let’s not delay the inevitable here, if we go on a little run and win some games, then Schoen might thing Jones is actually good, and then well maybe Schoen isn’t actually who we all thought because he clearly can’t think for himself.
Mara will meddle if Jones starts to play well and that will be terrible.
“Mirage” of winning pointless games will only lead to the team kicking the fan down the road again another year.
Terps literally said, and I quote, “if Schoen is stupid enough to think that this team can win with Jones, well then he’s not the guy for the job that we all thought he is.” And some posters agreed with that.
I am not denying that any of those things were said. That doesn't mean that Giants fans were actively rooting for the team to lose because they wanted the team to move on from those players. You are taking, "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone" as "I hope the Giants lose"? Wanting them to be gone because there was no evidence the team could win anything of significance with them is different from hoping they lose.
It is not true. Everyone here is excited we are in the playoffs and have a chance to go to the Superbowl.
It really isn't something that should be up for debate. There have been many posters saying Jones would never be good, had never been good and we won't be good until he's gone.
It is fucking crazy that it's trying to be argued those discussions didn't take place. It's what caused me and several others to stop posting with regularity!!
Terps literally said, and I quote, “if Schoen is stupid enough to think that this team can win with Jones, well then he’s not the guy for the job that we all thought he is.” And some posters agreed with that.
Direct quote.
A direct quote that does not prove your point. This doesn't mean that Terps was actively rooting for the Giants to lose so Jones wouldn't be here next year. As someone said above who has talked to him, Terps is excited that the Giants are where they are.
are people really denying that they weren't people who were more invested in seeing Jones fail than to see the team win?
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
Fatman, we have a history. Let's not let that get in our way here...
Sure, there were people who after seeing not nearly enough from DJ that felt that he was not the future.
Certainly there were people who wanted to move on sooner rather than later.
Let's be clear, I was never one of those. I read the debates, but didn't participate because I was a fence sitter, and I personally hate when fence sitters jump into the fray for no good purpose, so I stayed out.
That said, there were some who wanted Jones and Barkley gone at time when they had not proven anything. FOR YEARS.
They wanted to move on. To be fair, what Jones is doing in highly unusual in this era of football. QBs with performances like his for 3 year are thrown onto the scrap heap. Witness Mayfield, Darnold, and dozens of thers over the past decade. It is unusual for a 4th year quarterback to have the light go on like DJ did. Hell, not only doesn;t the light go on, the switch is disconnected and they have no more chances. Now I get there there have been mitigating cricumstances. As I said, I saw some flashes, and we had bad OL, bad receivers, and bad coaching all as mitigating factors. That is why I sat on the fence.
If we are all intellectually honest about it, from the outside looking in, the odds did not favor a Jones revival. I think it is hardly a stretch to feel that it was time to move on. I wanted to give him one more shot, but I could certainly understand running out of patience and giving up on him.
However to take that and project that those people will be unhappy now is the gaslighting. I will say it again we are all Giant fans here. Having our favorite team win is worth more than any BS internet food fight.
Terps isn't here to say that he is happy. But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones. What else is there to say.
Theere is a group here that just wants a sick sort of revenge. They want anybody who doubted DJ, who doubt DG to be miserable that the Giants are winning. They seriously want that for people. I find that to be petty and an unworthy way of trating fellow Giant fans. Fellow fans who wanted nothing more than for the team to be winning. Just had a different opinion about how to get there.
Lets enjoy the ride. Lets celebrate together. There is plenty to debate with having to try to ruin the joy for other people, people who have been miserable with the state of this team for a decade. It's why we lose good posters. They just decide that the shit isn't worth it, they would rather just enjoy being a fan in private.
Its a sad case of being desperate to prove that they are somehow better at the cost of others. They want to take the fun and joy out this for everybody else. Not only sad, but immature.
Let me tell you all again. With a few exceptions of fans of other teams, there isn't a poster here now, that is unhappy the giants are winning. I will also guarantee you that Terp is happy right now.
Terps literally said, and I quote, “if Schoen is stupid enough to think that this team can win with Jones, well then he’s not the guy for the job that we all thought he is.” And some posters agreed with that.
Direct quote.
And so what, their opinion was wrong.
Do you want your Applebees giftcard in the mail or digital?
When this team wins nfc east titles and a super bowl with about 12 or so of his players. And those 12 all flirting in the elite player category. You know who they all are.
We just need to let some more time elapse. Give it 2-3 years. His players are finally starting to take off, albeit 1-2 years later than we had hoped. Coaching is king.
If you want proof that DJ is used as a proxy for the DG debates, here it is.
All those 100s of DJ threads, were really about DG.
They were wrong about DG and can't/won't admit it, and gaslight everybody else using DJ, when everybody is praising him and saying pay the man. They won't accept these people saying ok, I was wrong about DJ, because that doesn't satisfy their need to be right about DG. So no praise for DJ will ever be good enough until they can claim vicotry in the great DG debates.
djm, we can send you and Applebees giftcard as well.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
are people really denying that they weren't people who were more invested in seeing Jones fail than to see the team win?
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
Are we pretending today that you can discern people's "actual" intent, other than what they have specifically expressed, on an anonymous message board? Are we to think you are some kind of mind-reader? Quit bullying people and acting like you are the best Giants fan. I'm as good a Giants fan as you, probably better, and I've been one longer. Get off your high horse.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
I understand the logic of moving forward with Jones. I'm not convinced he's the guy, after 3 very strong games, great games. The playoff win was exceptional. I'd like to see him play at that level with more consistency.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
I understand the logic of moving forward with Jones. I'm not convinced he's the guy, after 3 very strong games, great games. The playoff win was exceptional. I'd like to see him play at that level with more consistency.
No doubt. Jones has more to prove. There is still room for growth, there is still a possibility of failure.
I would not bet my life on him being a success.
I think, and maybe I'm wrong, people have decided that he is worth giving another 3 years. A 3, 4, or 5 year deal, that has an out after 3. That seems to be constant across the board, the only question is what the amount should be.
Jones just had a phenomenal year, statistically ...
...It is not 1985. 15 passing touchdowns (22 total) is not statistically phenomenal. Jones had a good year. He has been great in his last three games. Lets hope he keeps it up and keeps improving.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
I'm just clarifying my thoughts. It's possible .McL misconstrued something I wrote. I am very positive about his recent play. I have doubts but he's been fantastic and if he were to give performances like this on a frequent basis, it would change my mind.
Hanging around the grill by the backyard pool telling everyone his opinion so forcefully that people roll their eyes and look for their chance to exit. The light boor. The lack of humility makes the person just an awful conversationalist. They don't see it and don't think much of those who slip away, perhaps because they're paying themselves in the back for being so right, perhaps because they never noticed the crowd dispersing away from them.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
Perhaps I am wrong about Producer, I thought I saw him suggesting contract for Jones.
Others have.
Quote:
One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
Hanging around the grill by the backyard pool telling everyone his opinion so forcefully that people roll their eyes and look for their chance to exit. The light boor. The lack of humility makes the person just an awful conversationalist. They don't see it and don't think much of those who slip away, perhaps because they're paying themselves in the back for being so right, perhaps because they never noticed the crowd dispersing away from them.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
Enjoy the game fellas!
Question is, based on what you wrote, are YOU that guy?
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
Perhaps I am wrong about Producer, I thought I saw him suggesting contract for Jones.
Others have.
Quote:
One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
He's getting a contract. What I think is immaterial. If I was in charge, yes I would likely give him a deal at this juncture.
Hanging around the grill by the backyard pool telling everyone his opinion so forcefully that people roll their eyes and look for their chance to exit. The light boor. The lack of humility makes the person just an awful conversationalist. They don't see it and don't think much of those who slip away, perhaps because they're paying themselves in the back for being so right, perhaps because they never noticed the crowd dispersing away from them.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
Enjoy the game fellas!
Question is, based on what you wrote, are YOU that guy?
I'certainly surprised and happy about Jones' transformation and what it means for the Giants going forward.
I am, however, very surprised that so many think this means the Jones debate is over. On the contrary, I think this means the Jones debate is just getting started.
There's no doubt in my mind Jones will get a contract >35 million AAV. From next year forward it will be on Jones to live up to that value every single game. To me, for now, there's no reason to assume he can't, but neither there's reason to assume he will.
It will still be an ongoing evaluation and like the Cardinals experience with Murray, the Raiders experience with Carr, the Browns experience with Watson, the Bronco's excperience with Wilson (and I could go on forever), it's not a foregone conclusion that Jones will live up to such a contract and the Giants will not live to regret it.
Like I said, as a Giants fan I very much hope he will. As a football fan I know there's no guarantee he will.
Look forward to a big game from Jones and I hope his team gives him enough opportunity to have a big impact.
Not only will they need a great coaching effort and performance from Jones they will need the OL to compete favorably. If this does not happen I think we see some of the same issues again that they did during the season slide. 1-5-1 in division. The LOS issue continued but at least for this one we have Williams back and hopefully a continued healthy Thomas.
I would expect some will consider all the circumstances that played out in the game and post accordingly. Others probably not but that is a smaller group. That group is creative and persistent in making its point however short sighted. Just have to look close enough to see the underlying intent. Just like most of the Jones discussion threads.
Some of you guessed right, and I guessed wrong. I wanted the Giants to move on from Jones, because I didn’t think he had it in him to compete for a championship. That clearly proved to be incorrect.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
Some of you guessed right, and I guessed wrong. I wanted the Giants to move on from Jones, because I didn’t think he had it in him to compete for a championship. That clearly proved to be incorrect.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
If I “want” anything, it’s a simple acknowledgement that opinions are not absolutes or facts (revisionists deny having done that)..MANY, not just some, stated their disdain for DJ as just that..
Certain posters here were on EVERY FUCKING JONES THREAD BASHING HIM For YEARS, along with DG. Non-stop nonsense.
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
Certain posters here were on EVERY FUCKING JONES THREAD BASHING HIM For YEARS, along with DG. Non-stop nonsense.
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
We can let your last paragraph slide as it is your belief and that’s ok..
As to the rest of your post, THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
There were just as many pro-DJ posts on the same very threads, so I don't really see how one side is worse or better than the other side on that front.
There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
So in all seriousness, who do you guys what these acknowledgements from? Is it the guy who doesn’t even post on this site any longer? Do you want him to come back and say sorry to you?
So in all seriousness, who do you guys what these acknowledgements from? Is it the guy who doesn’t even post on this site any longer? Do you want him to come back and say sorry to you?
How about, I shouldn’t have jumped the gun. I should have waited to see what Daboll can or cannot do with this guy, I’d like to see if stability (or lack thereof) with his revolving door of HCs and Coordinators was the problem or his injuries or his pathetic protection or all of the above.
I have always acknowledged where I have been incorrect or jumped the gun. It’s really very easy to do.
rehashing of the same EXACT points ad infinitum ad nauseam on every thread, how about giving reasons WHY he is not our guy? “He sucks, he’s at best a back-up, worst QB in the league,” etc., doesn’t cut it with me as a person who likes to debate/discuss with points, not poison. I suspect a bunch of others feel the same.
Why didn’t I have a problem with you, christian? Because even though we were
retty much at the opposite ends of the DJ pole, you ALWAYS gave your reasons.
REASONS, that’s all we ask. Those that did, I did not consider insufferable unless they repeated those reasons 50 times a day, every day for years. We’re not stupid, we GOT IT! You were not a fan of DJ, that’s fine. It was always just fine
There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
Some of you guessed right, and I guessed wrong. I wanted the Giants to move on from Jones, because I didn’t think he had it in him to compete for a championship. That clearly proved to be incorrect.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
If I “want” anything, it’s a simple acknowledgement that opinions are not absolutes or facts (revisionists deny having done that)..MANY, not just some, stated their disdain for DJ as just that..
C'mon Bruce, you are better than this. You see christian's statement above. He admits his assessment of DJ was wrong. This is an opinion message board. Nothing is more than opinion. To harp on the BS of opinion stated as fact is intellectually dishonest, because you are or were too lazy to find evidence to support your POV. Hurray for you, you happened to be right about one of your opinions. Do you need an Applebee's gift card as well. How many times has those who share your opinion stated something as fact? Just as often as the "other side" did I would wager. Just check ryan's posts on this thread. He flat out states that many of his fictitious claims are indeed FACT. Why are you not calling him out on those statements which are far more blatant?
Certain posters here were on EVERY FUCKING JONES THREAD BASHING HIM For YEARS, along with DG. Non-stop nonsense.
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
More proof that the DJ wars are a proxy for the DG wars!
And you think that "your side" hasn't done the same?
FOR YEARS!
And was and still is wrong about DG!
So in all seriousness, who do you guys what these acknowledgements from? Is it the guy who doesn’t even post on this site any longer? Do you want him to come back and say sorry to you?
How about, I shouldn’t have jumped the gun. I should have waited to see what Daboll can or cannot do with this guy, I’d like to see if stability (or lack thereof) with his revolving door of HCs and Coordinators was the problem or his injuries or his pathetic protection or all of the above.
I have always acknowledged where I have been incorrect or jumped the gun. It’s really very easy to do.
I posted a whole series of comments by critics admitting that they now believe in DJ.
Do you need a pint of blood?
The polyannas got 1 thing right over the past decade and about 99 things wrong.
And the pessimist are widely admitting they were wrong.
For god's sakes, you have the admissions!
Why are people on this thread still trying to push the Narrative that DG "deserves credit", DG is "vindicated", DG wasn't really bad. Seriously. Have a little self awareness.
you so crowd...there were legit concerns on DJ. I have stated my concerns numerous times - lack of completing drives with TDs and failure to make end game drives to tie or wins games. Jones seems to have corrected that, so I am back on the train.
Yes, those that were adamant about Jones lack of ability to be anything more than a backup or low tier starter because they deemed themselves to be QB gurus were no doubt annoying and thread derailers. But it appears that Daboll has been able to bring out Jones' ability. Many have accepted that Jones was better than they thought. A few hang on. There does not need to be a litany of "I told you so" threads.
Whatever happened to gracious in victory? Does there need to be derision for those that were wrong about Jones ability. No, there does not. Gloating is not necessary. And before we get to far along, let's see if DJ can maintain his recent successes.
It is best to ignore the obvious trolls and move on. BBI is better with some opposing POVs - or else it becomes boring.
Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
It's true that the DJFC crowd was pretty small, but so was the true 'hater' crowd. Think they were about the same size and about the same level of annoying.
There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
This entire reaction to my post proves my point really. Very thoughtful response.
One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
Nice job McL putting all those recent posts together on Daniel Jones on this topic before they reach the archives.
You-know-who joined this thread, and since he has a penchant to purposely alter posts from time to time to support his own gaslighting, abusive behavior you never what could happen next.
I’m not a big fan of posters jamming up the board with repetitive posts, especially when it doesn’t seem the intent is to actually debate. That’s not good for the community, no matter the perspective presented.
The whole value proposition on positive or negative is lame. So is the need for an apology or permission to gloat.
I’m still skeptical of giving Jones a big commitment off one good year. If the Giants do, and he fizzles, do any of you who disagree owe me an apology and should I gloat in your face? Of course not.
There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
It was "miserable" for you because others did not share your opinion, and either you could not, or were too lazy, to gather enough evidence to give your opinion enough weight.
I felt that the people you are railing against were being too harsh, and were not giving enough weight to the mitigating circumstances. I was glad that he would get one more shot under this set of coaches. I felt it was a decision that had no downside. The team needed a QB for the year, DJ was still cheap, and there were no other appealing choices. So, best thing to do was to give DJ one more chance. I never had a shred of evidence to support that opinion. So I stayed quiet. There was certainly evidence of 3 years of something less than good play from him. There is plenty of precedent that most QBs with that resume enting year 4 will either fail or be out of chances. Other than to say that the team did a lousy job of putting the pieces in place around him to help make him successful, what else is there. There is no evidence to say he will be good. It is a difficult argument to make with so little evidence.
Lastly, lets be clear about this. The fact that DJ has been having success under a new regime does not "vindicate" DG at all. It just further proves his incompetence at team building that he could not find a a group of good enough OL, receivers and coaches for 3 years to help make DJ successful. He spent invested the #6 pick in the draft for him, and nothing to help him.
Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
It's true that the DJFC crowd was pretty small, but so was the true 'hater' crowd. Think they were about the same size and about the same level of annoying.
Agree the hater crowd was pretty small. I find most pretty fair to the Jones debate and opinions can vary here. Some see faults more than others. Others see more around him being the biggest factors. This of course could change as seasons play out. Gamedays can bring out more emotion.
I was talking more in general with condescending tone from some which is also includes some who also like to use the DJFC.
I still think DJ's journey is far from over and can still go a lot of ways. In this franchise don't expect too many pats on the back till your standing at the end. Good play will only get you so far but pleased with a lot of steps he has made. It's going to take a really good team to give him the best chance.
both side have for the most part converged to the same opinion of DJ. Mostly.
He has done well recently. He is still not a top 5 QB, YET. There is still more to prove. There is still room for growth. He has played well enough to deserve a contract for a few more years.
I really don't see any serious opinions that differ significantly from that set. So what the hell are we debating here other than some people got their feelings hurt on an internet opinion message board. For christs sakes, my opinion was closer to yours coming into the season, and I find the whining and gloating more fucking annoying than any of the DJ debate threads.
There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable.
Cooper - how many years do you feel this went on making you miserable?
McL, again, you are not understanding the overarching point of all of this. Because you guys are so sensitive to being wrong about Jones, you can’t handle it when people call you out for your nonsense.
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
This is hands down your best contribution to the site, and an early candidate for post of the year.
Only a fool would take a statistical output (say number of rushes and yards per carry) and manufacture some causal or predictive value narrative, without understanding the circumstances around the data.
Never cared for and won’t ever care for I told you so threads/posts
they are lame. However, their number is small compared to the hordes of the opposite. Day after day it was the same threads with the same posts over and over. It was like being message board bludgeoned to death. It reached a point were I got numb to it and avoided them for the most part, just became and unproductive pissing match and a battle of whoever surprised the longest.
There’s some good advice above, I only wish people took that advice years ago and chilled out a bit, myself included at times. Enjoy DJ playing well, move on.
RE: Never cared for and won’t ever care for I told you so threads/posts
they are lame. However, their number is small compared to the hordes of the opposite. Day after day it was the same threads with the same posts over and over. It was like being message board bludgeoned to death. It reached a point were I got numb to it and avoided them for the most part, just became and unproductive pissing match and a battle of whoever surprised the longest.
There’s some good advice above, I only wish people took that advice years ago and chilled out a bit, myself included at times. Enjoy DJ playing well, move on.
And why I needed to take a Sabbatical the last few years. The insufferability (not differences of opinion) was insufferable..:)
UConn — I agree with the volume point. In retrospect, I think I was less annoyed by it, because it was a view I agreed with. If it were a view I didn’t agree with or was neutral on, I’d probably be annoyed. That’s a little hypocritical on my part.
Who declined DJ’s 5th year option while being fully aware of Jones’ work habits and character?
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
Who declined DJ’s 5th year option while being fully aware of Jones’ work habits and character?
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
No, that’s called a prudent move by a new GM who took on a cap mess and had no actual experience with the QB he inherited, nor did the coaching staff. And in the end he took a gamble on the 5th year option or the Tag which sure is costly but not really if he’s your guy.
As for Slayton he absolutely shit the bed in some big moments this year. That’s irrefutable. I never really saw anyone say Slayton drops are why Jones isn’t a top tier QB, rather, our WR corps as a whole is underwhelming and a larger reason for why the offense isn’t potent enough. You can add in Engram for years prior, his drops were catastrophic.
Two things can be true at the same time - DJ isn’t a top tier QB and the WR unit needs a big upgrade. I’m fairly certain this is where most “DJFC” people sit.
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
Again, wrong. Making up bullshit to prove an argument that doesn't exist. Can't speak for everyone else but I've supported Slayton through the years while realizing that he's a limited 3rd option who struggles to make contested catches and has some brutal drops a lot of the time. That being said, he's a good Giant and has put in the work. Doesn't change the fact that our WR group is towards the bottom of the league.
Just because that's a fact doesn't mean we are "throwing Slayton under the bus."
Would love to have Slayton back on this team, he's a guy that can really make a big difference with a #1 type option out there. But if you have to throw him the ball a lot, it is very up and down.
Schoen didn't pick up Jones' option. That was definitely the right move at the time.
That being said, if anyone was actually listening to anything he was saying in a lot of those interviews post his introduction as GM, you could tell he liked him a lot. He even named him specifically as a core player you can build around with. Let's not act like Jones magically reversed course and it came out of absolutely nowhere that he could play like this. Schoen and Daboll likely knew they could get really good play out of this guy.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
UConn — I agree with the volume point. In retrospect, I think I was less annoyed by it, because it was a view I agreed with. If it were a view I didn’t agree with or was neutral on, I’d probably be annoyed. That’s a little hypocritical on my part.
Thank you, that’s what I was offering as my chief complaint. Per usual, you said it more succinctly Than I did
cosmic, Gettleman signed Nate Solder to be Daniel Jones' left tackle, and then he actually moved him to right tackle which might have been even worse.
You might as well put me at left tackle and the performance would have been the same.
Anyone with a quarter of a brain would admit that the OL was an unmitigated disaster under Gettleman, and that Jones had next to no chance to be awesome right away, except the Thomas pick obviously which needed a year or two to really shine.
UConn — I agree with the volume point. In retrospect, I think I was less annoyed by it, because it was a view I agreed with. If it were a view I didn’t agree with or was neutral on, I’d probably be annoyed. That’s a little hypocritical on my part.
Thank you, that’s what I was offering as my chief complaint. Per usual, you said it more succinctly Than I did
Good lesson for all of us to self reflect time-to-time and make sure our intent and behavior is a positive contribution to the community.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
To me, kind of simple. Dex was a solid contributor an not an issue per se. DJ was looked at as a potential franchise guy, meriting a much closer look per my prior comments. Too, Dex would not be costing us a higher percentage of our cap moving forward. DJ potentially would cost nearly 4x what Dex would. Finding good DTs is not as hard as finding your next franchise QB
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Exactly right. The folks who love to berate everyone else for not using "facts" rationalize this away with asinine arguments like "Schoen really liked DJ and saw him as a core player" but needed to see more. Seriously? Can you imagine the outrage if Scheon hadn't exercised DL's option last year because he wanted to "see more"? It is unequivocal. Schoen had real concerns with DJ and his actions speak volumes more than anything he may have said to the press. But he is no more of a DJ hater than anyone else. Just a sensible GM doing sensible things.
And the cost consequence of not exercising DJ's option is monumental to this franchise. The argument that this approach was somehow just "part of his plan" is revisionist history. If he could go back in time, he would absolutely exercise that option. As would anyone else on this board.
McL, again, you are not understanding the overarching point of all of this. Because you guys are so sensitive to being wrong about Jones, you can’t handle it when people call you out for your nonsense.
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Have some self awareness ryan...
Isn't “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…" an admission that there was a flaw in their opinion? They thought these aspect would be better for whatever reasons...
You want absolutesself immolation, but you in turn cannot say DG was bad without a but...
Lol, you guys are “both sides-ing” the DJ debate now?? Wow, shocking.
Who the fuck is "you guys"?
My opinion was actually closer to yours, and I while I found the whole thing not worth my time to read through all the debate, when I did read stuff, I found both sides insufferable but your even more so. Your side would initiate the threads with stuff like "how long will it take for the DJ haters to come and say blah blah blah". You guys instigated and literally asked for it.
that just isn’t true. Not picking up his 5th year is not a monumental mistake - it was a calculated move where if the best case scenario happened (and it seems like it did) you’d have the tag to fall back on if a deal can’t be met. And you actually have two tag options as well.
A monumental mistake is what Carolina did with Darnold - they traded for him and a few weeks later picked up his 5th year option without ever seeing what he can do for them.
And if your sole argument is playing the go back in time game
then it’s just not something worth discussing. GMs don’t get that liberty and Schoens job was to mitigate future risk. He did just that and the Giants are better off for it. If they have to pay their franchise QB a bit more as a result, so be it. He won’t be paying him if he doesn’t think he can win with him.
Schoen didn't pick up Jones' option. That was definitely the right move at the time.
That being said, if anyone was actually listening to anything he was saying in a lot of those interviews post his introduction as GM, you could tell he liked him a lot. He even named him specifically as a core player you can build around with. Let's not act like Jones magically reversed course and it came out of absolutely nowhere that he could play like this. Schoen and Daboll likely knew they could get really good play out of this guy.
Seriously, what is Shoen going to say after making that decision.
"Yeah, I'm rolling with the guy because I don't have another reasonable choice, but the guy sucks!"? Of course he is going to say positive things, it means nothing.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
McL, again, you are not understanding the overarching point of all of this. Because you guys are so sensitive to being wrong about Jones, you can’t handle it when people call you out for your nonsense.
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
LOL. This is funny coming from you. You are throwing lies into this thread to exaggerate your point. I would call that nonsense.
I am still skeptical of giving Jones a huge contract. I hope he really has turned the corner. If Jones gets his $200M and sputters, are you going to admit you were wrong? Of course not, you will continue to blame everyone else on the team.
Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
This is hands down your best contribution to the site, and an early candidate for post of the year.
Only a fool would take a statistical output (say number of rushes and yards per carry) and manufacture some causal or predictive value narrative, without understanding the circumstances around the data.
But I understand the data and what it suggests. It tells me I am winning or at least favorably competing on the LOS and controlling the TOP battle. That I am ahead of the chains and this will help the QB, OL and WR's. Then they can dictate to the defense and not sit in those bad down/distance situations that seems to expose some of this teams vulnerable positions. Put a good defense on the other side and I am liking my chances.
You should consider also liking the Giants chances if it plays out this way Saturday night. Good chance the game is going to end no?
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
We battled about this back in 2018 and I have always appreciated your fact based disagreement on the Barkley pick. There is absolutely no "I told you so" here and I have in fact actually come to agree with your point of view on positional value, primarily because of the inherent injury risk of the position. The Risk/Reward and opportunity cost is unjustified and it really does screw up cap economics. You were right, I was wrong.
Just a lesson that you should always have the courage of your convictions and not back down irrespective of the head winds against you. Glad you are posting again.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
I disagree with all of the bellyaching by many of my thin-skinned friends.
Jones was selected as the 6th pick to replace a QB icon for a flagship franchise. And QB is arguably the most important position in team sports.
For three years, Jones's performance ran the spectrum: some good, some really bad, and a lot of mediocrity. So, in a sport where it's critical to get the position correct, especially with the economics factor of trying to leverage the benefit of a rookie contract, is it really any wonder the level of daily scrutiny that has occurred?
And if you are having a bad day with your mental health become the volume is so overwhelming, let me give you some advice - don't reply. Ignore the content. There is no requirement that you have to read or reply to something that you like or don't like.
JFC, it's just a god damn football conversation. We're not talking about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Yes, I did. You said "Barkley sucked until this year, I know thats not a popular opinion."
It may be an "opinion" but if you look at the sky and say its yellow instead of blue and hey thats just your opinion, everyone is going to think you're an idiot.
Saquon Barkley had over 2,000 total yards and was an all pro as a rookie, on a terrible team.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Well, I am not the only one with that opinion, and I have data points that support my opinion.
Further I have analysis that suggest that the data points that I am looking at correlate to winning football.
Also analysis to suggest that the data point (total yards) you are using has no effect on winning or losing.
There was a time when people said the world was flat. Those that said it was a sphere were called idiots.
There were people who said the heavens were fixed, and the Earth was the center of the universe. Those who said the sun was the center and it is a system held together by gravity were called idiots.
That puts me in the company of the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, and Newton... I'm good with that.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
The point of my post was that somebody said that those who have stood by their criticisms of Jones and Barkley are no longer here. My point was that I am still a critic of Brakley's first 4 years, and I am still here. Thus refuting the STATEMENT he was making.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
OL play especially regarding the tun wasn't as bad as many here suggest. Further, I believe that Barkley made them look worse.
There were plenty of examples of Barkley "dancing". From what I saw his dancing was a poor read on the blocks in front of him. As a RB you read the helmet of the defensive player on the other side of the block. Whichever side the helmet is on, go the OTHER way. Time and time again, Barkley either cut into the defenders leverage, or tried to reverse course. Either way it allowed the defender to shed the block and make the play. Had Barkley made the right read, there were yards to be gained.
He has been doing this much much better this year. The dancing has stopped, he takes the play to hole and then makes his cuts to make nearby defenders miss. If he fails, he still gets what was there. If he succeeds we get plays like the 28 yard TD.
Terps literally said, and I quote, “if Schoen is stupid enough to think that this team can win with Jones, well then he’s not the guy for the job that we all thought he is.” And some posters agreed with that.
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
When a player is personally responsible for 6 INTs because the ball banged off his hands, there is usually going to be some condemnation associated with it, along with dropping the game winning pass vs the Eagles a couple years back. That stuff does not normally sit well with fans.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Jones just put up points and production that people said couldn't happen because of his surroundings.
Jones' performances the past two games are on par with any QB in the league IMO. He looked different, made consistently tougher throws, imo.
I still think it's very much an open question what Jones ceiling is. If it were answered, I think we'd see a $50mm deal coming his way. The lesser debates, however have been answered.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
The point about Schoen not exercising Jones’ option
Schoen didn’t “hate” Jones. He came to an objective judgement that Jones’ performance was lacking, using a level of expertise none of us have.
If he either thought Jones was a franchise QB or would develop like he did in the last few games, you bet your bottom dollar he would have exercised the option.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
Please, show me all the posts that are not acknowledging that Jones has played extremely well down the stretch and deserves his share of the credit for leading us to the Divisional round of the playoffs.
Show me anybody that is saying we should not give Jones a contract.
Even Producer said we should give him a contract.
Quit making up BS narratives.
I posted a list of post that show quite the opposite above. I showed you mine, now you show me yours!
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
Not to mention that prior to this year Dex had been healthier than Daniel Jones and even if Dex did not develop as a pass rusher his run stuffing ability would have justified the 5th year option as a 1 year deal (maybe a slight overpay, but within the realm of what he would get on open market)
on his decision making under duress. Perhaps JS just wanted to add a little more pressure and not have any ties if things went a different way. He said it would be a good problem to have if Jones played well this year.
I liked the decision and still fully in agreement with it.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
+1
As I keep saying, we gotta pay the man, but there is more to prove.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
Thinking that Jones has "come out of nowhere" means to me that people are just conveniently forgetting his top performances throughout the years, some even last year.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
and Jon, you've doubted Jones' ability his entire career...no offense. So you're not the arbiter here of "we need to see continued success..."
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
One strong game in 2021, and a few in 2019 look more like outliers, prior to his last three games, not to mention different schemes, playcallers, etc. If you believe otherwise, good for you but it was a lot of hoping and hope is not a plan.
Your opinion of my football acumen carries no weight for me. You just sound like a chicken with its head cut off.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
Precisely. It's been three games, let's see how he performs versus top NFL defenses, and DCs who are going to focus as much as they need to on gameplanning to eliminate his strengths. Jones isn't the same passer without his running game activated, for example. Will he be able to throw the offense out of a defense rolling out Cover Two or other shell looks. He needs to hit those routes in the deep thirds to achieve it. Granted, he might not have the horses to do it right now either, but it doesn't mean he can. Prove it.
This sharp decline in turnovers and rushing totals were not expected. Nor was the huge uptick in red zone efficiency.
So, that was out of nowhere.
There is enough variation/out of nowhere in DJ's game versus the last few years and even a good bit of the beginning of this season to default to a franchise tag on him.
It may not be what Team Jones wants and may cost more in the end, but that's where his profile likely fits right now.
And as a critic that didn't typically see "franchise QB" in the predominate balance of most his seasons including this one, agreeing that he may have earned that tag level now is a pretty big step up.
Thinking that Jones has "come out of nowhere" means to me that people are just conveniently forgetting his top performances throughout the years, some even last year.
Jon acknowledged those "top performances" and rightfully called them outliers, because that's what they were.
Do you need "outliers" explained to you, little buddy?
Jon - I'm glad to hear my "football acumen" for you carries no weight, considering you've been dead wrong about this QB and roster, moreover. Maybe if you had been listening to what some of us were saying about Jones, you might not be as surprised.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Nope. Wrong again. Played great at New Orleans, played great at Washington, played well at home against Carolina, played pretty well on the road against KC, nearly led them to victory after a tough early pick. Played well at home against Philly.
Again, these were all games that he played in with a shitty coaching staff and leaky OL.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
Spot on..As I said, he threw a lot of shit against the wall, but wasn’t right about all that much, yet got credit for stuff most other posters never got credit for..
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
RE: Fact: DJ has had a solid year. He’s a good QB.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Not really. He’s proven himself a great deal. Philly and Dallas are better than we are. Doesn’t mean we can’t beat them. If he doesn’t get it done, so be it..Other good QBs have come up short as well
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
Now apply this logic directly to Jones and his critics prior to this break out final half of the season... The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
RE: RE: Fact: DJ has had a solid year. He’s a good QB.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Gotcha. As I’ve said, rankings don’t mean all that much, imv..Can he lead a team during crunch time, be it with his arm, legs or both? Sure. But like any good QB, it doesn’t mean he can’t shit the bed in any given game
Saquon Barkley had over 2,000 total yards and was an all pro as a rookie, on a terrible team.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Listen slugger, even the posters who share your opinions here don't take you seriously as a human being.
McL explained his point of view, and it's a perfectly reasonable one. Run success rate is as valid a metric as any, and you might find the discussion advanced by questioning that metric or offering your own viewpoint (other than just reciting awards). Instead, you take someone else's post out of context, ignore their explanation, and then make a broad claim about their character as a human being.
The next time you post something that adds value to BBI will be the first.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Nothing to trigger. We all know, even at his best, DJ may come up short against a superior Philly team..Has nothing to do with his worth
RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
RE: RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
Quote:
Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
He’s done it all year. Doesn’t mean he can’t have a bad game including some errors. Like any good Qb, He’s mot perfect. He’s had a helluva year, no matter what he does in Philly
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
They can still evaluate some aspects of his performance. It could be a wipeout for the whole offense, we'll see. I don't think it makes or changes their fundamental decision on Jones, I would think it's already been decided to retain him. The smoke was out there before the wildcard game. Perhaps it impacts terms slightly, eg Giants want 3 years, agent wants 4-5, but I'd expect him back in September.
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
Me? Depends on the level of bad game. If he throws a pick six with 3 INTS, a fumble and overall horrible decisions, that's problematic.
If he has a pick and just can't find the same rhythm as the Vikings game, I think most would conclude we were simply overmatched and couldn't carryover the momentum from the prior week.
I've been skeptical of Jones most of this season. Going into the last few weeks, I was fully convinced that he wasn't the guy. Then we opened up the playbook and looked like a legitimate offense. The people pumping their chest were wrong too. They said nobody can succeed with these WR's. Nobody can succeed with this OL. Jones needs help.
All of a sudden, the wr's are open. The OL is blocking well. It's like they were hiding their true offense until they were ready.
Lets say he has a game similar to Eli's first time playing Philly in
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
but it’s a silly prerequisite. Jones proved he can win a road playoff game, something that takes many QBs several tries at doing, or not at all. There’s nothing about his game that suggests he can’t beat either team, we just haven’t had this coaching staff until now and we are still short in the talent department by a pretty substantial margin.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
There are levels to performance, and Jones has stepped up a few in the past three wins as compared to the rest of 2022. Performances unlike the rest of the season, but reminiscient of a few positive outliers in past seasons. He needs to go up to the level where he plays really well against Philly, Dallas, the best of the conference. This is not a ding, this is a reality of progression.
You and I look at football (and most things) very differently. I'm a process and moving parts guy, I'm watching for different things, tho the end result of win or lose is the same for both of us.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
Simms included, same as Jones now. Take the next step!
RE: RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
FINALLY. Wtf?
I said this shit at 6-1. Done deal if we make the playoffs, more money and years for every postseason win. It seemed intuitive.
People said really stupid shit to me like:
"You don't know that, Schoen and Daboll might might want something different even if they win a playoff game."
Forget Jones shitting the bed. He is on a roll, we may very lose, it won't be Jones.
If he gets to championship game it will be impossible sell anything other than locking him up. Agree.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terps was a big loss for the site
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terps was a big loss for the site
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
Except OBJ skepticism didn’t last all that long..Jones has been 3 years..
The argument was on whether or not the Giants should sign OBJ.
terps argued that they shouldn't(obviously) because we would miss our window of being able to trade him. He argued that once signed, the best we'd get is a rd 3.
The other side of the argument was that we should sign OBJ because he's too talented to give up and if it doesn't work out, we can always trade him.
Well, Terps was right that OBJ never matured, but he was completely wrong about how the Giants should handle it. I think it worked out just fine.
Terps wasn't a trailblazer on that. Some of us said we need to take that risk because he's so talented and if it doesn't work out, you can trade him. Terps' stance was that he will be untradable once signed.
again, moving the goalposts. he has to beat philly and dallas now, even though 6 months ago you wanted him gone and thought the team would suck again.
i'm fine with "ongoing evaluation" of Jones. just don't move the posts after you all predicted that Jones was never going to be a good quarterback.
just because posters say a bunch of words doesn't mean they "talk ball" at a different level.
you won't like hearing this but "your level" of football included thinking Jones wasn't very good at all and the team wouldn't be good. well, they are 1 win away from the nfc championship largely due to Jones' play. "your level" of ball included laughing at others when they said stuff like Jones can be as good as some of the top passers like Herbert, or that we'd rather have Jones than Jackson, etc, and if he's just given a bit more to work with he could take off. welp, Jones played better than Herbert this year and not only is Jackson hurt again but it seems like the players are going in opposite directions.
so, yeah, i get it man. you know football. just don't act like your knowledge of the game is so far and away above and beyond others here.
jon, if you call yourself a process and moving parts guy, then how could it be possible that your evaluation of Jones was so off? a process and moving parts guy would have understood that the hand he was dealt early on on his career was one of the worst in the sport. and look now, better process, better moving parts like OL, a healthy barkley...and wow he's a lot better. i don't get that.
jon, if you call yourself a process and moving parts guy, then how could it be possible that your evaluation of Jones was so off? a process and moving parts guy would have understood that the hand he was dealt early on on his career was one of the worst in the sport. and look now, better process, better moving parts like OL, a healthy barkley...and wow he's a lot better. i don't get that.
Bottomline, a lot of people from respected analysts to your average fan, missed badly on Jones. However DG and the Maras did not. What Gettleman and the Front office missed badly on was getting the right coaching for him and properly addressing WR and the OL. Basically the top 3 things a QB needs to succeed.
I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Anything’s possible, we all know that and SAID SO..My money is on Daboll..Look what he did with Josh Allen..Look what he’s done with DJ..They should be here a long time, fingers crossed. Josh Allen is a top 5 QB, but truth be told, he has been more error prone without Daboll, even though
The Bills are one of the best teams in the league. DJ is no Josh Allen and may never be, but I sure wish he had a Diggs to open everything up..Maybe Schoen will hit the lottery in the draft.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Taking a step back, we still averaged fewer than 1 TD per game passing and had average offense output despite Barkley having a great year. Plowing big dollars into the core pieces of the 2022 offense worries me.
I was more surprised by Barkley's production than Jones' this season. I said that I don't think Jones could be a top ten passer or lead us to a top ten offense (frankly, I view all other discussions a waste of time - you rather have elite talent around you like the 49ers or you need a great QB - and we do not have a roster like the 49ers). Happily, recent games have made me significantly less confident in that recent view and I look forward to seeing Jones continue developing next season. But this year doesn't make me want to dish out a six year deal or something like that.
When the Giants decided to keep him, I said it then and I believe it now, he was always getting two years. I hope they franchise him, invest in the weapons, shore up the depth on the line, and go kick the doors down in 2023.
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
I believe a tag only happens if negotiations break down.
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
More TD passes are a product of the PC..When they’ve “opened” him up, he’s thrown for more TDs..I trust the process. If we can get a #1 burner with actual hands, I see an open O possibly similar to Buffalo’s
Otherwise I see them working out a nice contract with amortizations allowing them to pursue what they need. Schoen’s a sharp and savvy guy, imv
Sure, it just depends where each party draws their line.
Given the market, and the teams who need QBs, there is likely a team willing to give Jones 5/200M with 100M fully guaranteed. That team may very well be coached by Mike Kafka next year for instance.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many Giants fans seem intent on acting like you can't be critical of a player or management as a "real" fan.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
for practical purposes jones is basically already signed for 2x80m (tags).
so any 3 year deal is probably starting around 100m guaranteed.
4+ year deals increase from there, and the 4th year+ is where the nyg start benefiting "buying out" more than 1 free agent year.
5 year 200m with more than 50% guaranteed has made sense to me since the first minny game, basically a diet kyler deal, but the longer it goes do the nyg get a little more aggressive and try to get say 8 years of control?
the 2nd biggest fully guaranteed amount for any QB in history is russell wilson's 125m (total guaranteed was 165). Kyler is 3rd behind both of those.
do you go aggressive on the total guarantees and give jones a guarantee more in line with wilson's deal above kyler, but get more years at a lower AAV than kyler? if jones continues playing like he is that would end up being a steal, but he also obviously hedges himself with big guarantees (ideally in a preferable structure for nyg).
and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many Giants fans seem intent on acting like you can't be critical of a player or management as a "real" fan.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Great post and spot on. Glad you jumped into the deep waters ;)
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
RE: RE: Yes, I predicted Jones would not succeed with NYG
I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I'm not justifying my opinion, but I am giving up on trying to communicate with posters who just want sunshine and unicorns. There's no consistent in-depth football talk involved. I don't have the energy to waste. Besides, Dunk is much better at it and I'd rather read him.
tag being discussed? Hasn't it been pretty much been made known that a multi-year deal is settled, it's just a matter of how many years it'll be? I think him winning more playoff games this post-season will increase however many years they're talking right now.
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
Personally I think Brady will hang ‘em up. Jimmy G could be in play for Vegas and as well as back to NE. I assume Atlanta will be in the qb market (whether vet or draft is tbd). I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I thought the golden boy Willis was their long-term answer. ;-) Seriously though, I think holding on to Tannehill would only cost around $9 million more than cutting him, so I can see them rolling with him, Dobbs and Willis, and see how everything shakes out.
I didn't think about Tennessee. I could see them transitioning from Tannehill, especially if Rodgers worms his way out of Green Bay. Willis looked a long, long way off as a passer, so I'm not sure the training wheels can be removed yet.
Atlanta is definitely in QB Hell. The have the 8th pick in the draft, but I don't know if that gets them Young, Stroud or Levis...
got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Have you ever noticed that even among those who share your opinion, no legitimate regular ever comes to your defense? I suspect it's because even the people who agree with you, don't want to agree with YOU.
Beyond that, though, let's try to imagine a scenario (I know how much you love hypotheticals) where BBI is an actual physical place, like a village. And every day for five years, it rains. And every day, for five years, one of the village children steps outside of his hut and predicts that it's finally going to be sunny today. And this continues for a few years, with nothing but more rain and the village child's failed predictions.
One day, miraculously, after hundreds - if not thousands - of failed predictions of sunshine, the sun finally does come out, and the rain finally pushes off past the horizon. The villagers rejoice! The rain has ended and the sun returned. Better yet, the hope for sunny tomorrows has returned. Everyone in the village is excited... except for the village child who has been predicting sun for years.
One of the village elders approaches the child and asks him why he's upset if the sun finally came out. And the child replies, "why won't anyone give me credit? I'm the only one who has been predicting sun this whole time!"
There may be a few "haters", but most were just "skeptics" and we've had every right to be skeptics. Daniel Jones has done a great job so far of proving the skeptics, like myself, and haters wrong. He's not a finished product yet either which is exciting.
The Giants have done a great job of bringing Jones along and opening the playbook at the right time. It seems as though they understood that the season is a marathon and didn't need to throw everything at Jones right away. However, even as a skeptic, I knew that no decision had to be made in week 8, there's a whole season for Jones to prove his worth.....and he's done just that.
There are some amazing comparisons to Eli's career as well, the only big difference is the timeline(thanks Joe Judge). I'm excited to see what Jones can become.
were skeptics too by the way and I think they know the game a little bit.
This is beyond boring at this point, but I'm sure no one ever had a problem with healthy skepticism.
It was the mouth-breathing crowd that boo'd him from the moment he was drafted (failed IQ test #1) and never stopped. There were a few people on this message board (we all know who they are because it's impossible to forget) who went so ridiculously beyond that, and polluted the board.
If you were a healthy skeptic taking a wait and see approach, that's obviously fine. At best, people were taking a wait and see. Milton broke it down several times nicely last summer.
It's time to put this to bed. I'm sure any real Giants fans are happy with what they're seeing from Jones, and most of the people who were polluting this board the worst have organically disappeared.
It's time to move on and get back to discussing the entire team, that all the sudden has a bright future. IMO.
another important factor that hasn't been discussed much because it is relatively new is how a big contract might affect Jones.
His best year was with the lowest expectations. Under Judge he was seemingly under a lot of pressure and played tight often.
Undoubtably this coaching staff has helped with that but will a big deal and the lofty expectations of a huge media market change that dynamic? It is speculation either way, but most of these conversations seem to revolve around the clear step forward he has taken and his overall improved play in a vacuum. There are people that are changed by that next step up in income, I don't think that is him.
But if we are being honest about what we've seen, the guy isn't immune to pressure. And the contract he is going to get is going to turn it up a few notches.
but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I never once saw Eli look overwhelmed. I don't know where these comparisons come from. They are both cerebral tall southern men and people seemed to want to reach for it, even when it wasn't there. They're wired differently on the field, Eli would do things that seemed absent minded. Jones has done plenty of things where he looked flustered. It's quite different. Eli never ever looked flustered.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
He took over the franchise from a two time Super Bowl MVP whose number has since been retired and whose pictures are all over the building.
I doubt money adds any more pressure than understanding what expectations are for a QB of the NY Giants. He would have buckled already imv.
Now how that money impacts impacts things from a team perspective is a fair consideration but by all indications it seems they are going to keep costs down early.
My hope is they capitalize on that early in the deal.
you are basically saying that the pressure of succeeding Eli didn't get to him. But I'm not sure that is the best point. The body of work on his first 3 seasons was extremely disappointing. I'm not sure you can at all say he handled that succession pressure well.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
I never once saw Eli look overwhelmed. I don't know where these comparisons come from. They are both cerebral tall southern men and people seemed to want to reach for it, even when it wasn't there. They're wired differently on the field, Eli would do things that seemed absent minded. Jones has done plenty of things where he looked flustered. It's quite different. Eli never ever looked flustered.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I respectfully disagree right back lol. Remember when Jerry Reese said Eli had happy feet? Eli often got flustered early on and there were just as many skeptics.
The comparisons for me are easy:
-They are both very laid back and cool, calm collected.
-They both had a lot of skeptics from day 1
-They both went through a lot of ups and downs early in their careers.
-They both were very polarizing early in their careers where half of the fan base didn't believe in them.
The biggest difference is circumstances that they were drafted into.
Big part of being the QB of the giants is to have thick skin and never let anything bother you. Jones has that. He could have packed it in with the way things were going. Decided to step up his game and leadership in a huge way and look where we are. Let's fucking beat Philly.
you are basically saying that the pressure of succeeding Eli didn't get to him. But I'm not sure that is the best point. The body of work on his first 3 seasons was extremely disappointing. I'm not sure you can at all say he handled that succession pressure well.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
His body of work has been part him and part the team around him including coaches. You can debate which was greater and I stayed neutral because I felt those situation was terrible around him.
He has shown he can handle pressure because he has the internal makeup to overcome obstacles it until it got better around him as did his play. This on top of the pressure of following a legend.
I don't see money changing this other than what I stated from a team perspective.
Just because you did not achieve a desired result does not mean you could not handle pressure. There are many other factors to this outside the pressure component from both a individual and team perspective imv.
but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
Poised as you?
I always think Jones looks very stressed on the field.
to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
RE: I always think Jones looks very stressed on the field.
to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
This is one of those things where I just think you are again being too optimistic to state with any kind of assurance that a person that has spent a good deal of time in their NFL career looking overwhelmed is immune from that going forward.
I agree with you. I do wonder if he relaxes somewhat and gets more comfortable in the Daboll offense, he will start to process more naturally.
That construction of this offense has given Jones more easy throws this year than the three prior seasons combined. The misdirection, rolls, play action, etc have created a lot of straight forward throws inside ten yards for Jones. I think christian posted a stat recently - and I verified it on NextGen - that Jones was last in the league in average intended air yards. Which means he's throwing a lot of high % passes intended to make his job less complicated.
And to his credit, he's executed.
RE: RE: There aren’t many things harder for an athlete
to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
Which tools were misread, honest question? Your arm is your arm, your speed is your speed, mechanics are your mechanics. Most of the rest is between the ears, of which handling pressure is at the top of the list. Game pressure, outside noise, etc.
Darn old has all the tools to be successful in the NFL, it’s why he was drafted high and netted two seconds. But he’s routinely showed he can’t handle the pressure.
the last few years but has not looked that way at all to me this season.
2019-2021 doesn't apply anymore. Call me crazy. It doesn't matter. HE was a young player on a terrible team with terrible coaching. Where Jones is now as a player and team is a lifetime removed from 2021.
RE: RE: RE: There aren’t many things harder for an athlete
to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
Which tools were misread, honest question? Your arm is your arm, your speed is your speed, mechanics are your mechanics. Most of the rest is between the ears, of which handling pressure is at the top of the list. Game pressure, outside noise, etc.
Darn old has all the tools to be successful in the NFL, it’s why he was drafted high and netted two seconds. But he’s routinely showed he can’t handle the pressure.
The most important tool which is impossible to gauge....between the ears. The ability to process a much faster, much more complex game. Physical tools are easy to spot, that's why the guys that are 6'5" 220 lbs with strong arms are taken early.
They are like Gollum.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
Quote:
the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
Ghere’s no question about that. None. They love to throw out first and foremost they’re Giants fans. Bullshit. Difference of opinions are what make forums tick. Still “holding out” with proof right in front of them, is totally about being right. Totally.
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Quote:
the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
How sad must they be that being right on an anonymous message board would be that important to them. At least they had a 3 year run where they could pound their chest. Glad most of them left, the board is better with them gone.
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the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
What a shitty way to live (imo). Must suck to not be able to enjoy watching our QB play well and develop. Imagine next year when he puts up bigger stats and the haters have nothing left to hate about (but they'll prolly carry on).
Very proud of this young man for battling and keeping at it. Hoping for another big day Saturday.
I remember Strahan talking about Eli and how the outside sees the "ah schucks" side but on the field he was a stone cold killer and competitor. Young Daniel showing some of this imv.
That was very funny. Well done.
I can't disagree that Jones looks better than ever the last 2-3 weeks. MAybe it's a combo of Hodgins and the WRs emerging and the OL...but whatever it is, you watch the replay of Sunday's game without the stress component, Jones looks like a super star in that game. I know the D sucks...he still looked like a super star. He runs like Cam Newton and his throws are virtually perfect. His pocket presence was otherworldly. The game REALLY slowed down for Jones on Sunday.
My god imagine he's this good...
I use the "Mute" browser extension to Edge. It suppresses all of Producer's comments so that they never even appear (unless copied by another poster in a comment).
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
DJ feeds off of it.
DJ feeds off of it.
That's just not true, IMO. He's not that type of guy at all. He probably doesn't even pay attention to it.
Let's stay calm...
I love your optimism! Jones has certainly proved me wrong this season, but to say he’s always had elite talent would go against nearly every scouting report of Jones ever written. I’d say his running ability was always elite. Outside of that, I’d be curious to hear what features were always known to be elite.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
Well said. I feel the same way. Never a "hater," but definitely a "doubter." Very glad to be proven wrong.
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These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
Fair enough, so you are acknowledging that there was a significant progression from Jones. I agree with you, but then I also understand why people didn't see it and still need to see more. Jones playing at this level is still very new, it's not like he's been this good all season. The offense was very simple for the majority of the year.
DJ feeds off of it.
He's like a Sith. Hate makes him stronger.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I think the small steps, incremental improvement was there to see. Even under judge, I thought the movement in the pocket and reduction in turnovers was constantly improving. The processing stuff was harder to see. When I watched the all 22 The garrett judge offense was so bad. All the routes broke at the same time. There really was not a progression. Prople saw jones hold the ball or not throw on time and attributed that to whatever they were inclined to attribute that to. But really there was nobody open. Defense sat on our shitty curls and waited. When we did complete passes they were highly contested and tight as a drum. Every throw was tough and there was nothing schemed to be easy. So the accuracy was always impressive to me.
the coaching, play design, and play calling were really terrible. Coupled with how lacking we were in other areas i don't think anyone could have thrived in the situation. Coaching really matters. Also to some degree, what the offense looked like without Jones was very telling. Glenon is not great, but he had proven to be reasonably competent in several other stops. He was completely lost and the O was useless
After that, We all saw flashes. Consistency was mostly the issues. I think parcells said something to the effect if i have seen them do it, I know they can do it. I felt like it was in there.
Lastly, I know it is often downplayed, but the intangibles are top notch. The menatl and physical toughness is elite. The work ethic, coachability, leadership....all that was beyond reproach.
Then there was just a leap of faith.
full disclosure, i am fairly optimistic by nature. I also don't think anything short of mahommes as a qb is a failure.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I pointed it out 1st game preseason (I think it was the 1st?). Daboll has given Jones the greenlight to scramble. Make a one side of the field read and if things look muddy, just start scrambling without hesitation.
Shurmur only had DJ for his rookie year where he threw 25 TDs to 12 INT. Shurmur did a decent job with DJ but not with the team.
Then the Giants canned Shurmur and brought in Judge.
This is were DJ went down hill with no or horrible QB coaching the next two years. DJ had potential his rookie year that's why we were calling him Danny Dimes but Judge almost ruined him. With Daboll, he coached him up and we now see what DJ can do.
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These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
I think the small steps, incremental improvement was there to see. Even under judge, I thought the movement in the pocket and reduction in turnovers was constantly improving. The processing stuff was harder to see. When I watched the all 22 The garrett judge offense was so bad. All the routes broke at the same time. There really was not a progression. Prople saw jones hold the ball or not throw on time and attributed that to whatever they were inclined to attribute that to. But really there was nobody open. Defense sat on our shitty curls and waited. When we did complete passes they were highly contested and tight as a drum. Every throw was tough and there was nothing schemed to be easy. So the accuracy was always impressive to me.
the coaching, play design, and play calling were really terrible. Coupled with how lacking we were in other areas i don't think anyone could have thrived in the situation. Coaching really matters. Also to some degree, what the offense looked like without Jones was very telling. Glenon is not great, but he had proven to be reasonably competent in several other stops. He was completely lost and the O was useless
After that, We all saw flashes. Consistency was mostly the issues. I think parcells said something to the effect if i have seen them do it, I know they can do it. I felt like it was in there.
Lastly, I know it is often downplayed, but the intangibles are top notch. The menatl and physical toughness is elite. The work ethic, coachability, leadership....all that was beyond reproach.
Then there was just a leap of faith.
full disclosure, i am fairly optimistic by nature. I also don't think anything short of mahommes as a qb is a failure.
Great post. The intangibles are top notch. He's such a great character guy to have lead your team. It's like our Favre to Rodgers, but its Eli to Jones.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
The emergence of a reliable WR, Hodgins, combined with the coaching staff opening up the playbook more. Passing more on first and second downs, has made a difference.
If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
I think Kafka, Daboll and Jones trust the receivers more now than they did earlier in the season, so the play calling is less conservative and Jones is letting it rip a little more into tight windows that he might've avoided earlier.
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really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Shurmur wasn’t a great head coach, but his offense wasn’t that bad. Jones also made progress playing for him outside of turnovers which is not uncommon for a rookie. Shurmur’s biggest issue was Bettcher as DC. He was fucking horrible. He made Patrick Graham look like Belichick.
studying Willis rookie year tape
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In comment 16000513 Victor in CT said:
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the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
Ghere’s no question about that. None. They love to throw out first and foremost they’re Giants fans. Bullshit. Difference of opinions are what make forums tick. Still “holding out” with proof right in front of them, is totally about being right. Totally.
Apologies if I’m reading this wrong, but are you implying that fans with a different opinion of Jones aren’t real giants fans?
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In comment 16000754 Kmed6000 said:
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These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
Three things, in my not-so-humble opinion, have made the difference. DJ's comfort with/knowledge of the offense; the addition of Isaiah Hodgins; improved OL play. It took most of the season for the OL to gel and for DJ to develop confidence in the offense. Hodgins' contribution is quite clear.
Fair enough, so you are acknowledging that there was a significant progression from Jones. I agree with you, but then I also understand why people didn't see it and still need to see more. Jones playing at this level is still very new, it's not like he's been this good all season. The offense was very simple for the majority of the year.
Actually, he HAS BEEN good all season. He’s been great of late..
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In comment 16000545 ryanmkeane said:
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really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Shurmur wasn’t a great head coach, but his offense wasn’t that bad. Jones also made progress playing for him outside of turnovers which is not uncommon for a rookie. Shurmur’s biggest issue was Bettcher as DC. He was fucking horrible. He made Patrick Graham look like Belichick.
Thats the best support system DJ and the offense had. Shurmur was a decent but not great offensive guy and the receivers were right about average. Still led the league in tight window throws which is sometimes an indictment on the talent and sometimes the passing concepts or both. This year with lesser talent at WR for much of the year the Daboll/Kafka concepts are getting guys open with a bit more frequency.
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These past 3 or so games, he's been in complete control. I don't like calling people not sold on Jones "haters" because there is a large portion of fans that just need to see more and it's understandable.
To the Jones lovers who have been defending him for the past 3 years straight, I have a question....how do you explain Jones looking completely different these past few weeks? When fans said he needed to do more, the argument was that his WR's and OL suck. Is it just that they are now good or is it something else? How do you explain this recent surge in his ability?
The emergence of a reliable WR, Hodgins, combined with the coaching staff opening up the playbook more. Passing more on first and second downs, has made a difference.
If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
I think Kafka, Daboll and Jones trust the receivers more now than they did earlier in the season, so the play calling is less conservative and Jones is letting it rip a little more into tight windows that he might've avoided earlier.
Let's not forget the pass pro has become much more consistent as well even though Neal is still struggling a bit.
The “hate” for DJ and for “SB” stems from their conviction they shouldn’t have been drafted that high and they won’t BUDGE off that conviction. They can’t or won’t move beyond that. It’s one thing to not think where they were picked wasn’t the prudent move, it’s another to not move the needle on that conviction no matter how well they perform.
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really shows just how bad shurmur and judge were as head coaches
Shurmur was at least an aggressive OC, just a really shitty head coach. Judge... well nothing really good to say about him.
Let's not forget to include Jason Garrett in this evaluation either.
Could you imagine what Jason Garrett would be calling with guys like Hodgins and James?? Good God, I shudder to think.
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the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
He could win the next 10 Super Bowls and some of these schmucks will still say he's no good
It's a stressful, aggravating way to live.
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here:
Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
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In comment 16000754 Kmed6000 said:
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If you look at stats, every QB has a higher comp% on first and 2nd downs vs. 3rd, bc they're much less predictable (to the D) than 3rd down. The Giants weren't passing much on early downs (compared to other teams) earlier in the season.
Let's not forget the pass pro has become much more consistent as well even though Neal is still struggling a bit.
Pass pro has improved, but I think part of that is also the play calling. It's easier to pass protect on first and 2nd down, than it is on obvious passing 3rd downs.
The play calling has been much less predictable the last few games, which helps the OL.
Sell me on Daniel Jones - ( New Window )
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Where’s he been?
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Certainly this place is a lot less interesting and enjoyable without people like Terps, FMiC, and others.
Let’s go further to try to make the point: Even if Terps felt that DJ was greater than sliced bread way back when, what he has put many of us through on almost every thread, saying the same fucking thing almost daily for 2-3 years, made this forum unreadable and unenjoyable a bunch of the time.
Even when we wanted to read opinions of posters (pro and con) on a given thread, he was always friggin’ there and even if you tried to scroll past his comments, his bullshit almost always hit your eye on the way passed it..
I hope he never returns
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the only ones left are here.
I have come to the conclusion that the possibility really does exist the priority for some it is to be proven right on bbi
Guess I m naive but I really thought Daniel ‘s reaching a level of play they seemed to think would never happen, would have convinced them he s the guy.
That’s absolutely a priority. There are people whose initial reactions to a remarkable season of overachievement are to post call-put threads. That’s when you know you like arguing about the team more than the team itself!
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
IMO his improvement in pre snap reads, setting protections, moving in the pocket, throwing on the run, post snap reads is off the charts in the last month. I thought the things he struggled with were "intangible" not something that could be taught/coached. Looks like I was totally wrong.
I give credit to Daboll and Kafka for seeing what Jones could do well, who the other 10 guys he's playing with are and designing/running an offense he could win with.
But Daniel Jones gets 100% credit for executing the offense better than I ever imagined. I think the Giants are going to sign him to very big 2nd contract and add better players on offense in the off season. Hopefully he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
Jones beat Cousins straight up in his FIRST playoff game.
"Pay that man his money" says, Teddy KGB
I think the improvement is sustainable and not a hot streak. A lot of things have clicked, partly because the OL and receiving corps have all improved, too.
Next: accurate long range passing.
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Taylor can’t do for $6m”, lol.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Nope, those people suck. But if it were me I would have handled it with Eric like a big boy. And if it were me I’d actually engage with other posters ideas and drop the act. He used to be a rational poster with good ideas but then he went full tilt on that persona and it ruined a lot of good discussion. Doesn’t mean he should be banned, but it does mean you’ll take a lot of shit.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
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In comment 16000931 UConn4523 said:
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Taylor can’t do for $6m”, lol.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
I guess it depends on the definition of toxicity or what kind of toxicity annoys you the most, because I still see a lot of the kind that makes me shake my head.
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In comment 16000931 UConn4523 said:
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Taylor can’t do for $6m”, lol.
Sure, and that's something the podcast guys were discussing too. Does that really constitute "ranting and raving" that should cause people to take time out of their day to write to a mod because they just can't stomach it?
Absolutely bizarre to me.
Nope, those people suck. But if it were me I would have handled it with Eric like a big boy. And if it were me I’d actually engage with other posters ideas and drop the act. He used to be a rational poster with good ideas but then he went full tilt on that persona and it ruined a lot of good discussion. Doesn’t mean he should be banned, but it does mean you’ll take a lot of shit.
Is it any coincidence that without him and a few of the awful trolls that plagued the board that threads have been less toxic? Maybe the Giants winning plays a role too but still, not sifting through garbage every day is nice.
Agreed, well said. And for the record, he shouldn’t be banned. Torture isn’t a bannable offense
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
Haven’t seen much if any gloating at all. Just a lot of happy, relieved and grateful fans
There was a time on this site where his opinions wouldn't have registered on the radar of stubbornness. Oh well.
As far as Jones -- I think many undersell the personal growth and commitment he's displayed this year. The principals at the team sure didn't think it was a given, this no 5th year option.
I think among the group of sane posters you have BB56 on one end who was confident under Daboll could grow into this guy, and JonC on the other who was skeptical.
Both perfectly defendable views going into 2022.
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
That’s already happened. And if Jones shits the bed on Saturday, then the haters will be back out. If you don’t believe that, then you haven’t been on BBI long.
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I have always liked Jones and seen progress...
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
That’s already happened. And if Jones shits the bed on Saturday, then the haters will be back out. If you don’t believe that, then you haven’t been on BBI long.
You’ve seen gloaters or just thrilled fans who believe they have their franchise guy and can now turn their attention to discussing holes that need to be filled or stitched?
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In comment 16000869 Tittle 9 20 64 said:
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Where’s he been?
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Certainly this place is a lot less interesting and enjoyable without people like Terps, FMiC, and others.
I miss those two guys as well, and it's not like I agreed with everything they said.
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
I said I thought he had a chance to become top 10 qb down the road.
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
I’m sure you are well aware of how strongly I and others believed in DJ, especially when Dabes took over. I gave many reasons why I thought he could be a franchise QB and have a bunch of his flaws corrected with sustained coaching. STILL, even I stopped posting the same damn opinions ad nauseam as I felt there was nothing more to add and there wasn’t. I felt time would tell.
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Every few years people claim this site isn't what it used to be, claim unpopular opinions get shut down, etc. Yet miraculously, people with negative or pessimistic opinions still get to post on this board without repercussions!
I remember people back in the day claiming Mark Sanchez's run in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs outclassed Eli's 2007 run. I've read opinions where Tom Coughlin was judged to be inferior to Jim Fassel, even after a Super Bowl win. People have always had wild opinions. That hasn't changed.
What I will say is this: when you see that someone is posting in a thread about a hot topic like Daniel Jones, and you know exactly what that poster is going to say before you even read it, and that poster says the same thing over and over in multiple threads every day, it can get a bit tiring.
I’m sure you are well aware of how strongly I and others believed in DJ, especially when Dabes took over. I gave many reasons why I thought he could be a franchise QB and have a bunch of his flaws corrected with sustained coaching. STILL, even I stopped posting the same damn opinions ad nauseam as I felt there was nothing more to add and there wasn’t. I felt time would tell.
Absolutely. I think we know where (and with who) the extremes lie...
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Where’s he been?
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
I didn’t know this about Terps but I know there is one mod here who sometimes goes overboard in this type of thing.
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
Danny Ice
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
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Would love his thoughts on this run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Wow, that was awesome and probably spot on..
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Would love his thoughts on this run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Have to admit, sounds dead on. If you were able to fake your handle I would have bought it.
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In comment 16001140 Sean said:
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Would love his thoughts on this run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Have to admit, sounds dead on. If you were able to fake your handle I would have bought it.
Well, when you see it every day, it's not too hard to replicate...
I’m starting to think his elite trait is his toughness/competitiveness which was there at Duke. Playing less than two weeks after breaking his collarbone. I understand why Gettleman liked him, you need a certain make up to play in NY. He has it. He’s quiet but has a tenacity when it comes to his game.
The national media really forgets he had some strong moments his rookie year when he had a competent offensive coach. The 4 TD game against the Lions comes to mind. He was excellent in the red zone that year as well.
The added muscle has strengthened his arm. He has serious zip now.
IMO his uniqueness is that he runs and throws equally well. Some QBs rely on one or the other, but Jones seems to be truly a dual threat. Maybe his passing is like #12, and his running is like #3 (among QBs), but that is a good combo
...but it would be a shame to replace the haters on BBI with the gloaters...
Thought we were all Giants fans.
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Would love his thoughts on this run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
I think you nailed it. Just need to add some condescension.
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In comment 16001140 Sean said:
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Would love his thoughts on this run.
I'm sure he'd gush over Daboll and staff. He wouldn't mention how he advocated jettisoning the entire roster after 2021 and going full tank for 2022, or that he would take the "under" on re-signing more than 2 of our recent draft picks to second contracts. He would give Jones zero credit for his improvement, calling it "fool's gold." He would grouse about how we're mortgaging the future and extending Jones's "scholarship" based on a fluky playoff run.
See, anyone can write a Terps post!
Wow, that was awesome and probably spot on..
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
Sometime during our recent run of futility, something snapped (fair enough, those Giants teams would drive anyone nuts), and he became a caricature of himself. Someone no better than a Skip Bayless, to be frank, shouting the same opinions from the rooftops over and over, contributing no forward momentum to any discussions, refusing to look at issues from even a slightly different angle.
So call us obsessed over Terps, if you want. Other posters on this thread miss him and want him back, are they also fixated on him? I do know that I miss the old Terps and wouldn't mind having him back.
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He always had elite talent. He’s not doing anything his season that we haven’t seen before. I would actually say that he’s just beginning to scratch the surface, and can be better than players like Allen or Burrow if we’re able to put a strong supporting cast around him.
I love your optimism! Jones has certainly proved me wrong this season, but to say he’s always had elite talent would go against nearly every scouting report of Jones ever written. I’d say his running ability was always elite. Outside of that, I’d be curious to hear what features were always known to be elite.
I think there are four basic QB attributes. In order of importance:
1) Head.- handle the speed and read.
2) Heart. - work hard and play hard
3) Arm. - make all the throws with accuracy and pace
4) Legs. - move in the pocket (most important); make plays by running (more important than it used to be)
To be elite you have to be elite at the first two and at least very good at #3. You can skip running ability as long as you can move in the pocket.
DJ has, by all accounts, always had elite heart. His arm strength has always been good to very good, with excellent accuracy. check and check.
His running ability is elite but there was concern about his pocket movement. Until recently undecided. Looks elite or close to it now.
The only really big question was his "head". Always the hardest to figure out, since we don't know what the coaches are asking for. Watched the Minn game twice. Didn't see a single mental mistake. Made a number of throws off of more than one read or while on the run. Check?
Looks like he could be elite on all 4. The Giants have never had that in the Super Bowl era. And most of this was visible his entire career here.
People don't want to hear this, but he has already had the best first four seasons of any Giants QB in SB era, not counting the playoffs. While nothing short of a SB run will compare to Eli's 4th season playoffs, DJ's game on Sunday may have been the best game by a QB in Giants history. Better than Phil in the SB. Better than Eli in S.F. although very different than both. If you think Eli was elite, than DJ is absolutely looking like he will also be elite. If you think Eli was a top QB but not truly elite, then your definition is narrow enough to exclude DJ.
And this was predictable based on his past performances. Go back and watch last year's games. He played really well and was hampered by bad scheme and bad talent. I am not new to this bandwagon. I wanted to pick up his option and thought the only reason not to is if you thought he was still hurt. While Sunday was better than my expectations, it was not a surprise to see him play that way. And he was pretty clearly the best QB on wild card weekend or at least close.
I hear you. BBI is like a bar, sometimes you reflect back on the guys who used to hang out here, and whatever his faults, Terps initiated some good discussions back in the day... but anyway, back to regularly scheduled programming.
Sometime during our recent run of futility, something snapped (fair enough, those Giants teams would drive anyone nuts), and he became a caricature of himself. Someone no better than a Skip Bayless, to be frank, shouting the same opinions from the rooftops over and over, contributing no forward momentum to any discussions, refusing to look at issues from even a slightly different angle.
So call us obsessed over Terps, if you want. Other posters on this thread miss him and want him back, are they also fixated on him? I do know that I miss the old Terps and wouldn't mind having him back.
The old Terps “died” long ago. He was my favorite poster, or one of..The one I abhor (the online persona, not him as I do not know him personally) became ponderous, unreasonable and repetitive..Not the guy I loved interacting with, whether we disagreed at times or not..
Diehard — I agree with your observation. I’m guilty of reminiscing of BBIers of years past as well.
Diehard — I agree with your observation. I’m guilty of reminiscing of BBIers of years past as well.
No thanks, one is more than enough..😎
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Where’s he been?
He left. There was a thread about Jones' potential contract situation from back in October, Terps had the temerity to post a podcast about it from the Athletic and say he thought it had good points, and a mod told him he was ranting and raving and people were complaining, and then he was basically like, "screw this" and left.
It's all right here: Bucky Brooks - ( New Window )
Yes... this was literally the only problem anyone had with Go Terps.
He made Eeyore look like an incurable optimist.
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by the definition it fits - someone who doesn’t want to give someone else credit for something or that they disagree with. There’s a whole lot of people that fit this description.
The “hate” for DJ and for “SB” stems from their conviction they shouldn’t have been drafted that high and they won’t BUDGE off that conviction. They can’t or won’t move beyond that. It’s one thing to not think where they were picked wasn’t the prudent move, it’s another to not move the needle on that conviction no matter how well they perform.
I'm getting a bit tired of all the "DJ Haters" bullshit being thrown around lately.
All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. Mind you I'm not one of the "haters", I was sitting on the fence and didn't participate in those DJ wars, so I don't have a particular position to defend. I will admit I didn't like the pick, but felt he showed enough as a rookie that there might be some there there.
Almost every single person derided as a "Hater" has been praising Jones. Almost every single "Hater" has publicly changed their minds on him. Just because they aren't falling over themselves calling him the next coming, like many of the polyannas here, doesn't make them less happy about the progress. It just means that these are all steps. There is still more for Jones to prove. Can he do it against a top notch defense in a pressure game? We will find out in 3 days time. Can he do it next year after DCs have a year of tape on him? It is very legitimate to still have questions about him, but still be delighted with the progress and hopeful that he can continue to grow. Let's face nobody, but nobody saw this kind of growth coming this year.
What I see is a bunch of people who were dug in during all the Gettleman debates, who switched their allegiance to DJ. And no many of them have turned with a vengeance on those who dared to criticize Dave Get<thefuckouttahere>, accusing the critics of being dug in, when they themselves were far more dug in on DG, and far more wrong and even now won't admit it. They are gaslighting people by accusing them of not changing their position when it is really they who have not changed and never really admitted they were wrong. They are trying to use DJ as some sort of wedge to exonerate their awful take on DG. Get over it. DG was awful, terrible, and every other pejorative adjective. Even if he wasn't a disaster at the draft, his drafts were only ok... Not great.
From 2018 - Only Barkley is left, and I still don't think it was a good choice
2019 looks like it will turn out pretty damn good, but still had misses like Baker, but 3 1sts and stting near the top at #6
2020 He picked Thomas who was my first choice as well. McKinney has been good and some quality snaps from Holmes. Also looking like a good draft again sitting near the top at #4
2021 is looking like a bust of draft, KT is gone, Ojulari and most of the rest just can't stay healthy.
So 2 good ones, 2 bad ones. Meh. And he was always at the top of the draft... What makes his drafting worse, is the he had no plan for building a team. It was just random. He waited way to long to start picking OL for example.
So before you start pointing fingers and calling people haters, realize there are three more fingers pointing at yourself.
The reality, there are no Jones haters here. Even Producer praised his performance.
I just got fed up at that point in this thread.
We're winning and seeing good football lately. I don't understand attacking fellow posters. Isn't winning reward enough?
And every bit of financial reward. But to whom much is given, much is to be expected. And for the first time in his four years here, the expectations should now be high that DJ can perform at a commensurate level with these expectations. And I can think of no better test for a Giants quarterback than meeting in their building our arch-rival who happens to be the number one seed in the conference with the top passing defense in the league.
The Eagles will no doubt be geared to stop Barkley and will challenge DJ in the same way the Vikings did last week. So here again, DJ will need to rise up and meet the challenge. If he wins this game and performs well, my guess is there will be little debate about DJ going forward.
If he doesn't perform well, I suspect the debate on DJ will be litigated over and over again until he hoists the Lombardi. When he does well, he will be praised. When he does poorly he will be criticized. Why people on this site believe this is a bad thing, I have no idea. But the notion that the critics should remain silent cowering in the corner sucking their thumbs with shame that they ever doubted DJ when he performs poorly is comical silliness.
Ask the Cardinals, Broncos and Browns fans what they think about the contracts given to their quarterbacks these days in relation to their lack of success. I suspect they are screaming with fury more loudly than ever these days...
Lol, and then he spent the next 3 years absolutely ripping the guy to shreds every single day on the message board.
We even had the owner of this site say “Terps was right” because Terps had done it so many times that he started to convince people that Jones was terrible.
The guy pretends to know stuff about football that other fans don’t, and he single handily was the worst poster on this website before he left. He made things less enjoyable, hijacked every single thread and made it about Jones somehow. He even said once that he really wanted to see what Jake Fromm could do and predicted that it wouldn’t be that much worse than Jones. He literally actually said that. Good riddance.
It’s amazing to me that people just cannot accept the fact that they were absolutely dead wrong about Jones. Not only that, but the way you praise him now is so littered with “well he was great but let’s keep it up…” as if to say, I’m keeping this in my back pocket in case he sucks again.
All of you guys embarrassed yourselves over Jones. Stop pretending that you didn’t spend countless hours on this board shitting on him. Time to get over it. It’s fine. Nobody cares anymore - just move along.
The guy was a terrible poster. And then he left, because of how terrible all his predictions ended up being. Couldn’t even face the music, which makes him even worse. Sorry, but true.
Agreed, hijacked EVERY DJ thread for years.
That guy can go f&*k off.
Now he wants to be friends and drink hot coco and share s’mores.
😂
It’s one thing to post an opinion - but multiple times on nearly every thread for years is over the top.
Can you imagine sitting next to this guy at a giants game and he tells you 450,000 times how much Jones sucks for years. This guy is clueless.
Agreed, hijacked EVERY DJ thread for years.
That guy can go f&*k off.
Now he wants to be friends and drink hot coco and share s’mores.
😂
It’s one thing to post an opinion - but multiple times on nearly every thread for years is over the top.
Can you imagine sitting next to this guy at a giants game and he tells you 450,000 times how much Jones sucks for years. This guy is clueless.
That's ok, mac. I don't want your fucking smores. I'm talking about civil discourse. I'm not looking to be your pal. I can tell from your unfunny, self-satisfied and presumptuous drivel, you're not my kinda guy either.
I will do my best to broker a deal with my wonderful friends in the DJFC and the BBI Monolith Society once this BBI Civial War ends with Daniel Jones... ;)
It’s amazing to me that people just cannot accept the fact that they were absolutely dead wrong about Jones. Not only that, but the way you praise him now is so littered with “well he was great but let’s keep it up…” as if to say, I’m keeping this in my back pocket in case he sucks again.
All of you guys embarrassed yourselves over Jones. Stop pretending that you didn’t spend countless hours on this board shitting on him. Time to get over it. It’s fine. Nobody cares anymore - just move along.
I'm calling BS. You never got over being wrong about DG.
Just 2 days ago you were on here trying to relitigate his legacy saying he deserves credit for building this team through his drafts. Which is utter nonsense.
And you of all people to throw stones at people like bw, terps and producer when you do the exact same, just in the opposite direction.
I don't always agree with them (for example, I did think they were too harsh on Jones, I wasn't convinced one way or the other, there were flashes), but at least terps and bw try to bring some facts to the table, and try to be thoughtful. Rather than vomiting their completely unsupported nonsense opinions over and over just as often or even moreso.
As I said a million fucking times, DG was bad. But he drafted some GREAT players, which we have now. But everything else was very bad. Get that opinion through your skull because that is what I’ve been saying.
And no, for the last time, Terps did not add “facts” to the discussion. All he added was “Jones is horrible and will always be horrible.” He was a horrific poster and this message board is better without him.
I literally just said, I got over it. I admitted it, multiple times, throughout this year and most of last.
So, yeah, what else do you want me to say or do to get it through your head?
I literally just said, I got over it. I admitted it, multiple times, throughout this year and most of last.
So, yeah, what else do you want me to say or do to get it through your head?
The problem with you when it come to DG is that you are not believable. You say this:
"DG was bad. But he drafted some GREAT players, which we have now."
Always a BUT...
DG was BAD... FULL STOP... No mitigations.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
Dan - good to hear from you man. How you feeling about Saturday?
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
I also get tired of the idiocy of coming on football fan site for armchair fans and debating topics but infusing every debate point as the other party stating facts not opinions.
JFC
Get over yourself. With the exception a handful of insiders that have real inside information, there is nobody here, and I mean nobody that is doin anything but stating opinions. Pretty much everything you see here IS AN OPINION. Getting bent out of shape because it is stated with force is immature and intellectually dishonest.
I often got a accused of stating things as facts. One of the reasons I don't post here as much anymore. I will research a topic, present my opinion (always making it clear in was my opinion) but making a very strong case with backing evidence... People who held a different opinion and didn't want to give it up would constantly accuse me of stating my opinions as facts. Even though it was blatently false, and there in black and white.
Accusing people of stating opinions as fact is intellectually dishonest. It just means you are too lazy to go find the evidence that is going to support you opinion. So again, the next time you accuse somebody of stating opinion as fact, remember it is a message board, it is all opinion, and when you point htat finger there are 3 more point back at yourself!
I notice you still can't say that DG sucked. No BUTS.
The arguments were old, stale, and tiresome. I wondered how those posters never got tired of their own opinions, because I sure grew tired of them.
I am mostly happy that the Giants are playing good ball and that the arrow is clearly pointed up right now. But I am also happy that coming on BBI and hearing from certain posters NON-STOP the same crap.
Great post and I’m done..As I said the other day, everything I’ve said about how awful Terps was, I said to his face and agreed to not discuss anything with each other again..
And Dan you’re 100% correct, their opinions were most often STATED AS FACTS, no matter what they try to couch now..
Again, I’m done with the vitriol and will just revel in the joy our franchise QB has brought to me and others
There was a time on this site where his opinions wouldn't have registered on the radar of stubbornness. Oh well.
As far as Jones -- I think many undersell the personal growth and commitment he's displayed this year. The principals at the team sure didn't think it was a given, this no 5th year option.
I think among the group of sane posters you have BB56 on one end who was confident under Daboll could grow into this guy, and JonC on the other who was skeptical.
Both perfectly defendable views going into 2022.
... To be sure he backed them up with analytics... But they were angry emotion.
If that's not accurate then it was simply angry emotion towards anyone who did not believe the same way that he did.
You are waxing poetic about b*******
+1
Even the owner of the site has called you out for being an asshole.
People stopped posting here because of your constant heckling.
So, fuck off!
We just need to let some more time elapse. Give it 2-3 years. His players are finally starting to take off, albeit 1-2 years later than we had hoped. Coaching is king.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
A sad day that was.
There is a first time for everything.
First time you said without a BUT.
Not on you, but of course we have djm just above touting DG vindication... And you wonder why other posters fire back with such force at you guys.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
words to live post by
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The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
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I’ve come around to the view BW has always had — BBI is better when it’s a little heated.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
words to live post by
Happy New Year amigo!
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In comment 16001489 christian said:
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I’ve come around to the view BW has always had — BBI is better when it’s a little heated.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
words to live post by
Happy New Year amigo!
Always a pleasure...
Happy new your to you. And Happy Giants Jan 21st!
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
That phrase should be the BBI's version of All The News That's Fit to Print. And placed at the top of the page underneath The Corner Forum.
I literally just said, I got over it. I admitted it, multiple times, throughout this year and most of last.
So, yeah, what else do you want me to say or do to get it through your head?
You have created posts in the last month or so saying Gettleman should actually be looked upon more favorably.
So your over being wrong twice?
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In comment 16001403 ryanmkeane said:
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The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
I agree with you BB56. They had no personal experience with him. No idea how he dealt with in game stress, how well he could learn new stuff, like their system.
Did you read the piece about how Daboll leaked the offensive plays to Wink in preseason so that they always had the right defense. Daboll wanted to see how he handled adversity.
They needed that up close personal touch with him to make a good decision.
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
Exactly right, Christian. It is an opinion forum. The forum is best when every opinion is presented. I have become a much better student of the game because of BBI - both for the incredible expertise of many posters as well as the diversity of the many points of view. I don't understand why people complain about it getting heated. Isn't that why were here? Isn't that what makes compelling discussion - the free expression of different opinions on interesting football topics?
Whether you liked Terps or not, he was an interesting and knowledgable poster, challenged conventional wisdom and presented a balancing point of view. No one would remember him, let alone constantly bring him up on these threads, if that wasn't the case...
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There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
That phrase should be the BBI's version of All The News That's Fit to Print. And placed at the top of the page underneath The Corner Forum.
It should be the banner at the top of every thread. Big bold letters.
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In comment 16001403 ryanmkeane said:
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The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
Good post BB.
All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. .
It’s hard to believe you can say this with a straight face. It’s also a completely false statement. All those haters have just shifted their commentary to backhanded compliments. Please show me one example where one of those haters stated (or even insinuated) they were thrilled to death that DJ is playing well.
“DJ played well BUT it was against a bad team.”
“DJ played well BUT missed some spots.”
“DJ played well BUT………”
Better yet, instead of buying into DJ and giving credit where credit is due, they mostly just sidestep being called out and make a corny joke. You can clearly see it in this tread as well. It’s disingenuous. I’d respect it more if they just came out and said “I was wrong”. But that’s just not the world we live in today.
Not a DJ fan right off the bat? That’s okay. But logic indicates that QBs need time to develop even in the perfect environment. DJ was in the worst possible situation to develop his first three years year but still showed growth and improvement. A lot of the railing away from haters the past few years was void of logic but we all had to suffer through it.
For the large amount of fans that stayed the course and suffered through years of their bullshit…I’m fine with some gloating. They’ve earned the right to gloat. And it’s a lot less fucking annoying than the constant negative drivel we’ve had to put up with from these malcontents. Gloat away!
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In comment 16001403 ryanmkeane said:
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The Mike, you’re full of shit. Just like Terps is. He absolutely did hate Daniel Jones, as did you.
I literally stated in my post that I have doubted for years what DJ was able to accomplish on Sunday. I never shit on the guy. In fact, I have never admired the character of a Giants player in my fifty years of fandom as much as I do that of DJ. I have simply doubted his ceiling as a passer. Which has been a legitimate issue for years until Brian Daboll came along.
Joe Schoen obviously doubted DJ's ceiling as well since he concluded that the prudent course of action last year was to not pick up DJ's fifth year option. I can only assume you think Schoen is full of shit and a DJ hater too...
Schoen and Daboll DID NOT doubt DJ one way or the other. They knew nothing about him personally or professionally other than from some film..
I have been as big a DJ supporter as anyone and Felt not picking up his option was the right thing to do. They needed to see upclose and personal what they had..
Nothing to do with DJ’s ceiling and more to do about doing the prudent thing.
I agree with you - it was absolutely the prudent thing to do. But it will now be viewed in hindsight as a massive error. Again, not his fault since the DJ we saw on Sunday is light years ahead of what he was his first three years...
Personally, my only line is just tell the truth.
Don’t make up facts, don’t misrepresent what you or others have posted, and stick by what you’ve said.
There’s no prize for being right on BBI. The prize is debating and hopefully learning something about football.
I agree with you, as I usually do. You’re a fantastic poster. The only problem is that there are some posters here that think they are football savants and don’t know shit about football. Some of them on this thread. It’s tough to have discussions and “learn” anything from arrogant assclowns that think they are the smartest guys in the room, no matter what room they’re in, but in actuality don’t know shit. They think they do. They try to convince me and you that they do, but they don’t. Arrogance is one of the worst traits to have in a human if you’re trying to have discussions and possibly change minds. The arrogant person will NEVER fold because they think they are better/smarter than the rest. Most of the time they’re just flaming fucking idiots.
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All the people who are accused of being haters are thrilled to death that DJ is playing well. .
It’s hard to believe you can say this with a straight face. It’s also a completely false statement. All those haters have just shifted their commentary to backhanded compliments. Please show me one example where one of those haters stated (or even insinuated) they were thrilled to death that DJ is playing well.
“DJ played well BUT it was against a bad team.”
“DJ played well BUT missed some spots.”
“DJ played well BUT………”
Better yet, instead of buying into DJ and giving credit where credit is due, they mostly just sidestep being called out and make a corny joke. You can clearly see it in this tread as well. It’s disingenuous. I’d respect it more if they just came out and said “I was wrong”. But that’s just not the world we live in today.
Not a DJ fan right off the bat? That’s okay. But logic indicates that QBs need time to develop even in the perfect environment. DJ was in the worst possible situation to develop his first three years year but still showed growth and improvement. A lot of the railing away from haters the past few years was void of logic but we all had to suffer through it.
For the large amount of fans that stayed the course and suffered through years of their bullshit…I’m fine with some gloating. They’ve earned the right to gloat. And it’s a lot less fucking annoying than the constant negative drivel we’ve had to put up with from these malcontents. Gloat away!
Who are you talking to?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site that is unhappy that DJ led our beloved team to a Playoff Victory?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site want DJ to fail miserably, and have the Giants mired in the swamp for more years to come?
Are you 100% positive DJ is a finished product and ready to challenge the entire league as one of th top, absolutely elite QBs in this league?
Is there still room for growth with DJ?
Has he proven everything that needs to be proven?
Has he defeated raging top 3 defense?
Has it done it multiple seasons? Can he?
Are you so sure you are willing to put your life on the line for it?
I thought not...
Look. Everybody here, and I mean EVERYBODY HERE, is thrilled that DJ looks like a keeper. But he still has more to prove. Getting the Giants to the playoffs, maybe the divisional round, may be his ceiling. I certainly hope not, but it may be. You cannot discount that possibility. There are some that are aware enough, and not blinded by homerism, to realize there there is more to prove. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It's crazy, I see these debates about how much to pay the guy, and I see the so called DJ Haters putting out the same numbers, sometimes even higher than the so called DJ supporters, and they are still accused of being a hater.
Some fans are just more rational about the path forward. They are still happy and enjoying the ride and rooting for the kid.
I don't think he deserves grief over it, even though I don't agree with it.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
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Cooper, if you go ahead and send me the list of BBIers who won the Daniel Jones debate, I’ll send them their Applebee’s gift cards.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
Apparently you need to be reminded of what you wrote...
Gloating? Gloating about what pray tell?
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
I’ve said a million times that Gettleman could identify talent actually pretty well. He was just awful at everything else unfortunately.
Eli Manning was a touted #1 overall pick. He had more “talent” than Daniel Jones did. And yet…throughout his entire career would you say how many seasons he actually played like a top 5 quarterback? Probably two times out of 15. 2008 and 2011. That’s it. He was god awful at times, shaky at times, an assassin at times, and overall, he was our QB, the Giants QB that everyone would go to war with.
People are expecting Jones go play like a top 5 QB every fucking week. It’s not realistic. You guys talk out of your ass about this it’s not even fun anymore.
I’ve said a million times that Gettleman could identify talent actually pretty well. He was just awful at everything else unfortunately.
Whoops...
You just couldn't do it....
You couldn't stick with Gettleman Sucks...
Say it with me - Gettleman SUCKED, NO IFS, ANDS, or BUTS!
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
Name these people.
And if Terps is one of them, I have had enough conversations with him to know that he is thrilled.
Again, I am calling BS. You're projecting.
Those posters are no longer here, because they don’t like the fact that the Giants are winning with Jones. Because they still think that ultimately it’s not the right decision to have him as the quarterback.
These things are not opinion, they are actual things that people posted.
Bullshit. To say people wanted to be right about Jones and wanted a new QB is one thing. Everyone on this site (except for NINEster and maybe a few others) are Giants fans. No one is rooting for the Giants to lose hoping we will get a new QB.
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Cooper, if you go ahead and send me the list of BBIers who won the Daniel Jones debate, I’ll send them their Applebee’s gift cards.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
For all those sufferers, who haven’t gotten a sufficient apology from Jones critics, I just want to make sure they get a little something.
[
Who are you talking to?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site that is unhappy that DJ led our beloved team to a Playoff Victory?
Do you think there is a single Giants fan on this site want DJ to fail miserably, and have the Giants mired in the swamp for more years to come?
Are you 100% positive DJ is a finished product and ready to challenge the entire league as one of th top, absolutely elite QBs in this league?
Is there still room for growth with DJ?
Has he proven everything that needs to be proven?
Has he defeated raging top 3 defense?
Has it done it multiple seasons? Can he?
Are you so sure you are willing to put your life on the line for it?
I thought not...
Look. Everybody here, and I mean EVERYBODY HERE, is thrilled that DJ looks like a keeper. But he still has more to prove. Getting the Giants to the playoffs, maybe the divisional round, may be his ceiling. I certainly hope not, but it may be. You cannot discount that possibility. There are some that are aware enough, and not blinded by homerism, to realize there there is more to prove. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
It's crazy, I see these debates about how much to pay the guy, and I see the so called DJ Haters putting out the same numbers, sometimes even higher than the so called DJ supporters, and they are still accused of being a hater.
Some fans are just more rational about the path forward. They are still happy and enjoying the ride and rooting for the kid. [/quote]
I just don’t believe that we have been reading the same threads over the past few years. No, I don’t believe that EVERYBODY HERE thinks that DJ is a keeper. It doesn’t mean that they are rooting for him to fail, but they certainly don’t want him as our future QB.
It’s funny, I’ve watched the haters twist and turn cherry-picked stats to show over and over and over how DJ will NEVER be even a productive QB. “A pretty good backup QB” was his ceiling we were told. Making every thread absolutely miserable for years. Quick question - where was your soapbox lectures then about being rational fans? But your specific questions are dripping with doubt, even now, so I have a pretty good idea what why those lectures never happened. So spare me with your grandstanding now.
I believe that there are plenty of fans that enjoy the wins despite having DJ as our QB. They will relish in and take the rewards but NEVER admit they were wrong. Or that they “could” be wrong about him. Clearly there is more to prove. More to grow. But the arrow is pointing up - and all you do is question everything.
“Some fans are just more rational about the path forward.“ - This we can agree on. And this would be the many fans that supported DJ while understanding that improvements needed to be made. But saw something in the young QB that was worth going through the growing pains. Those rational fans. Not the haters that pegged him as a bust from day one and screamed it from the mountaintop every day. Having faith in DJ isn’t “homerism” and those fans all understood that there were/are areas to improve. The fact that is still your argument tells me that you aren’t listening.
But I’m glad that you can still enjoy the game given all of your uncertainty about our QB that has done nothing but carry the team the entire season.
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In comment 16001575 christian said:
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Cooper, if you go ahead and send me the list of BBIers who won the Daniel Jones debate, I’ll send them their Applebee’s gift cards.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
For all those sufferers, who haven’t gotten a sufficient apology from Jones critics, I just want to make sure they get a little something.
Ahhh, that’s cute. Please let me know where you perform. I bet your show is hilarious.
Can you show me a post? There is no chance that at 5-1, people were like fuck this, fuck the playoffs. I hate Daniel Jones. I hope we lose out so we can get a new QB.
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In comment 16001575 christian said:
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Cooper, if you go ahead and send me the list of BBIers who won the Daniel Jones debate, I’ll send them their Applebee’s gift cards.
Where did I mention anything about “winning the Daniel Jones debate”? Not sure what your point is.
For all those sufferers, who haven’t gotten a sufficient apology from Jones critics, I just want to make sure they get a little something.
Haha...nice.
Lol. Is this actually happening right now?
More fiction from BBI's permanent pledge.
That didn't happen.
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
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NYG07, wrong, try again. Actual posts from actual posters here, citing reasons for wanting a QB/rebuild/better pick, etc, were actively rooting for the Giants to lose games and be terrible.
More fiction from BBI's permanent pledge.
That didn't happen.
Lol. Ok dude. Fuck right off. We had posters rooting for the Giants to lose games so they’d get higher picks ever since 2020, starting with the Chase Young thing. Which, wow, wouldn’t you know it, they were wrong about that too.
Posters literally have said, let’s not delay the inevitable here, if we go on a little run and win some games, then Schoen might thing Jones is actually good, and then well maybe Schoen isn’t actually who we all thought because he clearly can’t think for himself.
Mara will meddle if Jones starts to play well and that will be terrible.
“Mirage” of winning pointless games will only lead to the team kicking the fan down the road again another year.
This all happened. Stop saying it didn’t.
Direct quote.
These people are delusional
These people will just evaporate
These people will just evaporate
Guess I can’t help himself. I’m fired up about this team!
It is not true. Everyone here is excited we are in the playoffs and have a chance to go to the Superbowl.
These people are delusional
I just don't get it.
It really isn't something that should be up for debate. There have been many posters saying Jones would never be good, had never been good and we won't be good until he's gone.
It is fucking crazy that it's trying to be argued those discussions didn't take place. It's what caused me and several others to stop posting with regularity!!
Direct quote.
A direct quote that does not prove your point. This doesn't mean that Terps was actively rooting for the Giants to lose so Jones wouldn't be here next year. As someone said above who has talked to him, Terps is excited that the Giants are where they are.
So again... hyperbole. Stop being dramatic.
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
Fatman, we have a history. Let's not let that get in our way here...
Sure, there were people who after seeing not nearly enough from DJ that felt that he was not the future.
Certainly there were people who wanted to move on sooner rather than later.
Let's be clear, I was never one of those. I read the debates, but didn't participate because I was a fence sitter, and I personally hate when fence sitters jump into the fray for no good purpose, so I stayed out.
That said, there were some who wanted Jones and Barkley gone at time when they had not proven anything. FOR YEARS.
They wanted to move on. To be fair, what Jones is doing in highly unusual in this era of football. QBs with performances like his for 3 year are thrown onto the scrap heap. Witness Mayfield, Darnold, and dozens of thers over the past decade. It is unusual for a 4th year quarterback to have the light go on like DJ did. Hell, not only doesn;t the light go on, the switch is disconnected and they have no more chances. Now I get there there have been mitigating cricumstances. As I said, I saw some flashes, and we had bad OL, bad receivers, and bad coaching all as mitigating factors. That is why I sat on the fence.
If we are all intellectually honest about it, from the outside looking in, the odds did not favor a Jones revival. I think it is hardly a stretch to feel that it was time to move on. I wanted to give him one more shot, but I could certainly understand running out of patience and giving up on him.
However to take that and project that those people will be unhappy now is the gaslighting. I will say it again we are all Giant fans here. Having our favorite team win is worth more than any BS internet food fight.
Terps isn't here to say that he is happy. But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones. What else is there to say.
Theere is a group here that just wants a sick sort of revenge. They want anybody who doubted DJ, who doubt DG to be miserable that the Giants are winning. They seriously want that for people. I find that to be petty and an unworthy way of trating fellow Giant fans. Fellow fans who wanted nothing more than for the team to be winning. Just had a different opinion about how to get there.
Lets enjoy the ride. Lets celebrate together. There is plenty to debate with having to try to ruin the joy for other people, people who have been miserable with the state of this team for a decade. It's why we lose good posters. They just decide that the shit isn't worth it, they would rather just enjoy being a fan in private.
Its a sad case of being desperate to prove that they are somehow better at the cost of others. They want to take the fun and joy out this for everybody else. Not only sad, but immature.
Let me tell you all again. With a few exceptions of fans of other teams, there isn't a poster here now, that is unhappy the giants are winning. I will also guarantee you that Terp is happy right now.
Direct quote.
And so what, their opinion was wrong.
Do you want your Applebees giftcard in the mail or digital?
We just need to let some more time elapse. Give it 2-3 years. His players are finally starting to take off, albeit 1-2 years later than we had hoped. Coaching is king.
If you want proof that DJ is used as a proxy for the DG debates, here it is.
All those 100s of DJ threads, were really about DG.
They were wrong about DG and can't/won't admit it, and gaslight everybody else using DJ, when everybody is praising him and saying pay the man. They won't accept these people saying ok, I was wrong about DJ, because that doesn't satisfy their need to be right about DG. So no praise for DJ will ever be good enough until they can claim vicotry in the great DG debates.
djm, we can send you and Applebees giftcard as well.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
You can go back to last year and early this season were there were posts saying "I can't wait until Jones and Barkley are gone". What other possible meaning can that have??
Please stop gaslighting everyone acting like Jones wasn't called a career backup, never good at any level, as good as gone when his option wasn't picked up and the rest of horseshit flung at him for three seasons.
It happened - to say otherwise is trying to just minimize the moronic takes.
Are we pretending today that you can discern people's "actual" intent, other than what they have specifically expressed, on an anonymous message board? Are we to think you are some kind of mind-reader? Quit bullying people and acting like you are the best Giants fan. I'm as good a Giants fan as you, probably better, and I've been one longer. Get off your high horse.
And I say this respectfully.
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But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
I understand the logic of moving forward with Jones. I'm not convinced he's the guy, after 3 very strong games, great games. The playoff win was exceptional. I'd like to see him play at that level with more consistency.
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But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
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In comment 16001653 .McL. said:
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But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
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In comment 16001653 .McL. said:
Quote:
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
I understand the logic of moving forward with Jones. I'm not convinced he's the guy, after 3 very strong games, great games. The playoff win was exceptional. I'd like to see him play at that level with more consistency.
No doubt. Jones has more to prove. There is still room for growth, there is still a possibility of failure.
I would not bet my life on him being a success.
I think, and maybe I'm wrong, people have decided that he is worth giving another 3 years. A 3, 4, or 5 year deal, that has an out after 3. That seems to be constant across the board, the only question is what the amount should be.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/lowest-interception-percentage-2022-season#:~:text=Daniel%20Jones%20has%20averaged%20the,season%2C%20with%201.0%20per%20hundred.
Eighth best TD/Int ratio in the NFL - 3.0
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=best+touchdown%2F+interception+ratio+from+a+qb+2022
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/lowest-interception-percentage-2022-season#:~:text=Daniel%20Jones%20has%20averaged%20the,season%2C%20with%201.0%20per%20hundred.
Eighth best TD/Int ratio in the NFL - 3.0
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=best+touchdown%2F+interception+ratio+from+a+qb+2022
...It is not 1985. 15 passing touchdowns (22 total) is not statistically phenomenal. Jones had a good year. He has been great in his last three games. Lets hope he keeps it up and keeps improving.
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In comment 16001658 CooperDash said:
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In comment 16001653 .McL. said:
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But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
I'm just clarifying my thoughts. It's possible .McL misconstrued something I wrote. I am very positive about his recent play. I have doubts but he's been fantastic and if he were to give performances like this on a frequent basis, it would change my mind.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
Enjoy the game fellas!
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In comment 16001658 CooperDash said:
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In comment 16001653 .McL. said:
Quote:
But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
Perhaps I am wrong about Producer, I thought I saw him suggesting contract for Jones.
Others have.
One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
When christian said this he is referring to 2 and 3...
I have seen nothing but praise from all quarters.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
Enjoy the game fellas!
Question is, based on what you wrote, are YOU that guy?
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In comment 16001666 .McL. said:
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In comment 16001658 CooperDash said:
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In comment 16001653 .McL. said:
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But GD, TTH, christian, bw, Producer, ajr, and a crapload of others are here. THey have admitted they were wrong. They admitted they want to move forward with Jones.
Did this actually happen? Serious question. Since you are speaking for them, were those words actually written by them?
Yes indeed. I have seen all of the project what they think a contract going forward should look like.
Many have said they have changed their minds about him. But those statements are ignored, and ripped with sarcastic responses and dredging up past opinions.
Look at the recent threads discussing his contract.
Yeah, um, Producer’s comments just now contradict what you just said. So I highly doubt that those posters said those words.
Perhaps I am wrong about Producer, I thought I saw him suggesting contract for Jones.
Others have.
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One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
He's getting a contract. What I think is immaterial. If I was in charge, yes I would likely give him a deal at this juncture.
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Hanging around the grill by the backyard pool telling everyone his opinion so forcefully that people roll their eyes and look for their chance to exit. The light boor. The lack of humility makes the person just an awful conversationalist. They don't see it and don't think much of those who slip away, perhaps because they're paying themselves in the back for being so right, perhaps because they never noticed the crowd dispersing away from them.
BBI is a community of fans discussing topics just like that backyard party. We don't screen everyone here. You better believe some of those guys make their way over here. Having been an active participant in this site for over twenty years I can tell you that many great Giants fans have wandered away because the quality of discussion has been reduced to conversations dominated by a few of those guys.
These are not fun discussions for most people, but I'll admit some people absolutely live for this kind of back and forth.
I've said more than I care to in the topic, so I'll end with this:
Don't be that guy.
On another topic and in answer to an earlier question, I think the Giants have a shot this weekend. I think Philly deserves to be favored and probably will win, but I have rationalized why this could be a close game and I'm going this is the case.
Either way, win or lose, I'm going to be an anxious wreck all the way to the final whistle.
Enjoy the game fellas!
Question is, based on what you wrote, are YOU that guy?
You beat me to it.... That was my first thought.
Link - ( New Window )
I am, however, very surprised that so many think this means the Jones debate is over. On the contrary, I think this means the Jones debate is just getting started.
There's no doubt in my mind Jones will get a contract >35 million AAV. From next year forward it will be on Jones to live up to that value every single game. To me, for now, there's no reason to assume he can't, but neither there's reason to assume he will.
It will still be an ongoing evaluation and like the Cardinals experience with Murray, the Raiders experience with Carr, the Browns experience with Watson, the Bronco's excperience with Wilson (and I could go on forever), it's not a foregone conclusion that Jones will live up to such a contract and the Giants will not live to regret it.
Like I said, as a Giants fan I very much hope he will. As a football fan I know there's no guarantee he will.
Not only will they need a great coaching effort and performance from Jones they will need the OL to compete favorably. If this does not happen I think we see some of the same issues again that they did during the season slide. 1-5-1 in division. The LOS issue continued but at least for this one we have Williams back and hopefully a continued healthy Thomas.
I would expect some will consider all the circumstances that played out in the game and post accordingly. Others probably not but that is a smaller group. That group is creative and persistent in making its point however short sighted. Just have to look close enough to see the underlying intent. Just like most of the Jones discussion threads.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
If I “want” anything, it’s a simple acknowledgement that opinions are not absolutes or facts (revisionists deny having done that)..MANY, not just some, stated their disdain for DJ as just that..
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
We can let your last paragraph slide as it is your belief and that’s ok..
As to the rest of your post, THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
That’s EXACTLY what happened..EXACTLY.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
How about, I shouldn’t have jumped the gun. I should have waited to see what Daboll can or cannot do with this guy, I’d like to see if stability (or lack thereof) with his revolving door of HCs and Coordinators was the problem or his injuries or his pathetic protection or all of the above.
I have always acknowledged where I have been incorrect or jumped the gun. It’s really very easy to do.
Why didn’t I have a problem with you, christian? Because even though we were
retty much at the opposite ends of the DJ pole, you ALWAYS gave your reasons.
REASONS, that’s all we ask. Those that did, I did not consider insufferable unless they repeated those reasons 50 times a day, every day for years. We’re not stupid, we GOT IT! You were not a fan of DJ, that’s fine. It was always just fine
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
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Some of you guessed right, and I guessed wrong. I wanted the Giants to move on from Jones, because I didn’t think he had it in him to compete for a championship. That clearly proved to be incorrect.
If some of you need a formal apology, post your details. I’m sure we can come up with something to make you feel better.
If I “want” anything, it’s a simple acknowledgement that opinions are not absolutes or facts (revisionists deny having done that)..MANY, not just some, stated their disdain for DJ as just that..
C'mon Bruce, you are better than this. You see christian's statement above. He admits his assessment of DJ was wrong. This is an opinion message board. Nothing is more than opinion. To harp on the BS of opinion stated as fact is intellectually dishonest, because you are or were too lazy to find evidence to support your POV. Hurray for you, you happened to be right about one of your opinions. Do you need an Applebee's gift card as well. How many times has those who share your opinion stated something as fact? Just as often as the "other side" did I would wager. Just check ryan's posts on this thread. He flat out states that many of his fictitious claims are indeed FACT. Why are you not calling him out on those statements which are far more blatant?
Some of you act like, so they had an opinion and they were wrong. NO. They were annoying as FUCK and were Relentless with their BS OPINION. Stating an opinion is fine. NON STOP over the top nonsense over and over again is complete HORSESHIT and those posters should be roasted. They acted like they were some sort of expert and had to correct every other poster on how wrong they were on Jones. Please stop defending those annoying as fuck posters.
That said, DJ is certainly NOT a top 5 QB in this league. He has a long way and a lot to prove before that conversation. Extreme, over the top, threads are so annoying.
More proof that the DJ wars are a proxy for the DG wars!
And you think that "your side" hasn't done the same?
FOR YEARS!
And was and still is wrong about DG!
Grow up!
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So in all seriousness, who do you guys what these acknowledgements from? Is it the guy who doesn’t even post on this site any longer? Do you want him to come back and say sorry to you?
How about, I shouldn’t have jumped the gun. I should have waited to see what Daboll can or cannot do with this guy, I’d like to see if stability (or lack thereof) with his revolving door of HCs and Coordinators was the problem or his injuries or his pathetic protection or all of the above.
I have always acknowledged where I have been incorrect or jumped the gun. It’s really very easy to do.
I posted a whole series of comments by critics admitting that they now believe in DJ.
Do you need a pint of blood?
The polyannas got 1 thing right over the past decade and about 99 things wrong.
And the pessimist are widely admitting they were wrong.
For god's sakes, you have the admissions!
Why are people on this thread still trying to push the Narrative that DG "deserves credit", DG is "vindicated", DG wasn't really bad. Seriously. Have a little self awareness.
Yes, those that were adamant about Jones lack of ability to be anything more than a backup or low tier starter because they deemed themselves to be QB gurus were no doubt annoying and thread derailers. But it appears that Daboll has been able to bring out Jones' ability. Many have accepted that Jones was better than they thought. A few hang on. There does not need to be a litany of "I told you so" threads.
Whatever happened to gracious in victory? Does there need to be derision for those that were wrong about Jones ability. No, there does not. Gloating is not necessary. And before we get to far along, let's see if DJ can maintain his recent successes.
It is best to ignore the obvious trolls and move on. BBI is better with some opposing POVs - or else it becomes boring.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
It's true that the DJFC crowd was pretty small, but so was the true 'hater' crowd. Think they were about the same size and about the same level of annoying.
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There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
This entire reaction to my post proves my point really. Very thoughtful response.
Others have.
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One: 3 yrs, $35-38M per, around $70M guaranteed; 4 yrs & more $ if he beats Eagles
2nd: 2yr, $21-23M per yr bridge deal
3rd: Deals like Kyler Murray’s ($46.1M per, $160M g’d) make it hard to keep price down
...
christian : 1/18/2023 11:00 am : link : reply
I'm confused. Did the ex-GMs come up with those options?
- He is clearly talking about 1 and 3.
If so, I have a feeling I know why at least 2 are ex-GMs.
Right now, it's probably #1 ballpark
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:07 am : link : reply
Recent performance, a playoff win, and Murray's contract will all push Jones' value higher.
Patterson
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:09 am : link : reply
Agreed, what ever happens Saturday won’t lower the price. There is only upside.
After the last three wins
JonC : 1/18/2023 11:11 am : link : reply
and Jones' performance, I don't see how you put the toothpaste back in the tube with his agent and try to secure a bridge deal. That ship has very likely sailed.
It's no secret...
bw in dc : 1/18/2023 11:16 am : link : reply
I have been very critical of Jones's play, but if I put my business cap on, there is NFW that Team Jones should sign a multi-year deal that is < $35M AAV. They know they have that already in the non-EFT.
The guy looks like he's morphing into one of the top dual threats QBs in the league. That running ability is plus-plus right now.
So, from a pure business standpoint, I wouldn't sign a contract unless it's an AAV of $40M and $100-$150M guaranteed. In other words, I can't see a bridge deal here...
RE: It's no secret...
ajr2456 : 1/18/2023 11:19 am : link : reply
That’s why I think it ends up at 3 years, $70 million guaranteed. Basically guarantees two tag years, and if this is the Jones we see next year they’re ripping that third year up and signing a a deal that keeps him a Giant until he’s in his mid 30s.
RE: RE: I think people forgot that
allstarjim : 1/18/2023 12:10 pm : link : reply
This would have been an unthinkable discussion for me 6 weeks or so ago, but if you go the exclusive rights franchise tag, we're talking about a 1-year deal in the neighborhood of $45 million, right?
<snipped>
All-in-all, DJ's recent play has elevated what his cost will be, which will likely effect the approach to Saquon.
RE: RE: RE: ...
chick310 : 1/18/2023 2:02 pm : link : reply
No, we hope the Giants win and Jones is one of the reasons why.
<snipped>
those are all quotes just from 1 thread today.
There have been others where GD, TTH and Produce have praised Jones.
Nice job McL putting all those recent posts together on Daniel Jones on this topic before they reach the archives.
You-know-who joined this thread, and since he has a penchant to purposely alter posts from time to time to support his own gaslighting, abusive behavior you never what could happen next.
The whole value proposition on positive or negative is lame. So is the need for an apology or permission to gloat.
I’m still skeptical of giving Jones a big commitment off one good year. If the Giants do, and he fizzles, do any of you who disagree owe me an apology and should I gloat in your face? Of course not.
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There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable. Now that their whole thought process is unraveling and they’re being called out, they can’t handle it. So now we get soapbox lectures from some of you telling us to.” just enjoy the team” or “ let’s not get carried away” or “ we are all fans of the same team”. Or he’ll just make unfunny jokes or cry and ask” what do you want, an apology?” Again where were all of these lectures from some of you over the past three years of bullshit? Oh, yeah, you were the ones causing it.
I’ll tell you this much, these haters are a sensitive bunch of fucks.
It was "miserable" for you because others did not share your opinion, and either you could not, or were too lazy, to gather enough evidence to give your opinion enough weight.
I felt that the people you are railing against were being too harsh, and were not giving enough weight to the mitigating circumstances. I was glad that he would get one more shot under this set of coaches. I felt it was a decision that had no downside. The team needed a QB for the year, DJ was still cheap, and there were no other appealing choices. So, best thing to do was to give DJ one more chance. I never had a shred of evidence to support that opinion. So I stayed quiet. There was certainly evidence of 3 years of something less than good play from him. There is plenty of precedent that most QBs with that resume enting year 4 will either fail or be out of chances. Other than to say that the team did a lousy job of putting the pieces in place around him to help make him successful, what else is there. There is no evidence to say he will be good. It is a difficult argument to make with so little evidence.
Lastly, lets be clear about this. The fact that DJ has been having success under a new regime does not "vindicate" DG at all. It just further proves his incompetence at team building that he could not find a a group of good enough OL, receivers and coaches for 3 years to help make DJ successful. He spent invested the #6 pick in the draft for him, and nothing to help him.
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Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
It's true that the DJFC crowd was pretty small, but so was the true 'hater' crowd. Think they were about the same size and about the same level of annoying.
Agree the hater crowd was pretty small. I find most pretty fair to the Jones debate and opinions can vary here. Some see faults more than others. Others see more around him being the biggest factors. This of course could change as seasons play out. Gamedays can bring out more emotion.
I was talking more in general with condescending tone from some which is also includes some who also like to use the DJFC.
I still think DJ's journey is far from over and can still go a lot of ways. In this franchise don't expect too many pats on the back till your standing at the end. Good play will only get you so far but pleased with a lot of steps he has made. It's going to take a really good team to give him the best chance.
He has done well recently. He is still not a top 5 QB, YET. There is still more to prove. There is still room for growth. He has played well enough to deserve a contract for a few more years.
I really don't see any serious opinions that differ significantly from that set. So what the hell are we debating here other than some people got their feelings hurt on an internet opinion message board. For christs sakes, my opinion was closer to yours coming into the season, and I find the whining and gloating more fucking annoying than any of the DJ debate threads.
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There were many, many, many 'iN bE4 TeRpS CoMeS iN bAsHiNg JoNeS hurdurdur' posts before Terps or other 'haters' were even commenting in every thread about DJ as well.
The DJFC crowd can gloat to a certain extend. Fair enough. But they are definitely should not be throwing stones about 'civil discourse' or anything like that.
Oh, I’m so glad that you say that the DJFC crowd can gloat to a “certain extent”. Lol, what a condescending common.
But let me get this straight - you feel that the posts supporting our QB are equally as annoying as the droves of emotional, irrational, void of logic, negative posts about our QB?
The reality is that a lot of these haters spent years railing away and making this place miserable.
Cooper - how many years do you feel this went on making you miserable?
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
This is hands down your best contribution to the site, and an early candidate for post of the year.
Only a fool would take a statistical output (say number of rushes and yards per carry) and manufacture some causal or predictive value narrative, without understanding the circumstances around the data.
There’s some good advice above, I only wish people took that advice years ago and chilled out a bit, myself included at times. Enjoy DJ playing well, move on.
There’s some good advice above, I only wish people took that advice years ago and chilled out a bit, myself included at times. Enjoy DJ playing well, move on.
And why I needed to take a Sabbatical the last few years. The insufferability (not differences of opinion) was insufferable..:)
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
No, that’s called a prudent move by a new GM who took on a cap mess and had no actual experience with the QB he inherited, nor did the coaching staff. And in the end he took a gamble on the 5th year option or the Tag which sure is costly but not really if he’s your guy.
As for Slayton he absolutely shit the bed in some big moments this year. That’s irrefutable. I never really saw anyone say Slayton drops are why Jones isn’t a top tier QB, rather, our WR corps as a whole is underwhelming and a larger reason for why the offense isn’t potent enough. You can add in Engram for years prior, his drops were catastrophic.
Two things can be true at the same time - DJ isn’t a top tier QB and the WR unit needs a big upgrade. I’m fairly certain this is where most “DJFC” people sit.
And about the pro DJ side, what’s really annoying about then is their willingness to throw all other players under the bus to justify their view. Slayton is a Giant, too. There was a scent of idolatry about the whole thing that really rubbed me the wrong way.
Again, wrong. Making up bullshit to prove an argument that doesn't exist. Can't speak for everyone else but I've supported Slayton through the years while realizing that he's a limited 3rd option who struggles to make contested catches and has some brutal drops a lot of the time. That being said, he's a good Giant and has put in the work. Doesn't change the fact that our WR group is towards the bottom of the league.
Just because that's a fact doesn't mean we are "throwing Slayton under the bus."
That being said, if anyone was actually listening to anything he was saying in a lot of those interviews post his introduction as GM, you could tell he liked him a lot. He even named him specifically as a core player you can build around with. Let's not act like Jones magically reversed course and it came out of absolutely nowhere that he could play like this. Schoen and Daboll likely knew they could get really good play out of this guy.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Next stop: debate his contract.
Let’s beat the Eagles!
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Thank you, that’s what I was offering as my chief complaint. Per usual, you said it more succinctly Than I did
2. Dex, while not top tier at the time, was clearly a keeper at that price.
3. To date Jones didn’t earn $22m guaranteed or whatever it was, certainly not before Daboll was able to work with him for a season.
4. It’s infinitely more difficult to find out what you have a QB than any other position, so the comparison doesn’t make much sense.
5. It sends a message to DJ that he’s got to step up if he wants another contract.
I feel like you know all this already though, why fake it?
Shocked to see FMIC allowed on.
Guess you can falsify another person's posts and ridicule them with little consequence on this site. Not surprised he would return as he has no shame.
You might as well put me at left tackle and the performance would have been the same.
Anyone with a quarter of a brain would admit that the OL was an unmitigated disaster under Gettleman, and that Jones had next to no chance to be awesome right away, except the Thomas pick obviously which needed a year or two to really shine.
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UConn — I agree with the volume point. In retrospect, I think I was less annoyed by it, because it was a view I agreed with. If it were a view I didn’t agree with or was neutral on, I’d probably be annoyed. That’s a little hypocritical on my part.
Thank you, that’s what I was offering as my chief complaint. Per usual, you said it more succinctly Than I did
Good lesson for all of us to self reflect time-to-time and make sure our intent and behavior is a positive contribution to the community.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
To me, kind of simple. Dex was a solid contributor an not an issue per se. DJ was looked at as a potential franchise guy, meriting a much closer look per my prior comments. Too, Dex would not be costing us a higher percentage of our cap moving forward. DJ potentially would cost nearly 4x what Dex would. Finding good DTs is not as hard as finding your next franchise QB
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Exactly right. The folks who love to berate everyone else for not using "facts" rationalize this away with asinine arguments like "Schoen really liked DJ and saw him as a core player" but needed to see more. Seriously? Can you imagine the outrage if Scheon hadn't exercised DL's option last year because he wanted to "see more"? It is unequivocal. Schoen had real concerns with DJ and his actions speak volumes more than anything he may have said to the press. But he is no more of a DJ hater than anyone else. Just a sensible GM doing sensible things.
And the cost consequence of not exercising DJ's option is monumental to this franchise. The argument that this approach was somehow just "part of his plan" is revisionist history. If he could go back in time, he would absolutely exercise that option. As would anyone else on this board.
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Have some self awareness ryan...
Isn't “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…" an admission that there was a flaw in their opinion? They thought these aspect would be better for whatever reasons...
You want absolutesself immolation, but you in turn cannot say DG was bad without a but...
Who the fuck is "you guys"?
My opinion was actually closer to yours, and I while I found the whole thing not worth my time to read through all the debate, when I did read stuff, I found both sides insufferable but your even more so. Your side would initiate the threads with stuff like "how long will it take for the DJ haters to come and say blah blah blah". You guys instigated and literally asked for it.
A monumental mistake is what Carolina did with Darnold - they traded for him and a few weeks later picked up his 5th year option without ever seeing what he can do for them.
That being said, if anyone was actually listening to anything he was saying in a lot of those interviews post his introduction as GM, you could tell he liked him a lot. He even named him specifically as a core player you can build around with. Let's not act like Jones magically reversed course and it came out of absolutely nowhere that he could play like this. Schoen and Daboll likely knew they could get really good play out of this guy.
Seriously, what is Shoen going to say after making that decision.
"Yeah, I'm rolling with the guy because I don't have another reasonable choice, but the guy sucks!"? Of course he is going to say positive things, it means nothing.
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The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
If you don’t want to be called out for posting stuff on a message board that ends up being categorically incorrect, don’t post on a message board.
It’s like if you picked the Packers to win the Super Bowl this year and they ended up being pretty bad. Most of us are going to say “well hey that was pretty fucking stupid wasn’t it?” And you’d say things like “well the offensive line and defense really let them down…” instead of admitting that you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
LOL. This is funny coming from you. You are throwing lies into this thread to exaggerate your point. I would call that nonsense.
I am still skeptical of giving Jones a huge contract. I hope he really has turned the corner. If Jones gets his $200M and sputters, are you going to admit you were wrong? Of course not, you will continue to blame everyone else on the team.
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Other liked to project the term onto others considered in it but to me it came with a condescending tone from some. They use statistical analysis and data to form a narrative with little consideration to circumstances around that data. Unfortunately football is a real time contact sport whose variables can change play to play. Coaching matters. Personnel around the QB matter. Match up and competition should be considered. This often is left out of the assumption crowd.
Hoping for a big game Saturday. Like Daboll said "Strength in Team".
This is hands down your best contribution to the site, and an early candidate for post of the year.
Only a fool would take a statistical output (say number of rushes and yards per carry) and manufacture some causal or predictive value narrative, without understanding the circumstances around the data.
But I understand the data and what it suggests. It tells me I am winning or at least favorably competing on the LOS and controlling the TOP battle. That I am ahead of the chains and this will help the QB, OL and WR's. Then they can dictate to the defense and not sit in those bad down/distance situations that seems to expose some of this teams vulnerable positions. Put a good defense on the other side and I am liking my chances.
You should consider also liking the Giants chances if it plays out this way Saturday night. Good chance the game is going to end no?
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In comment 16001859 cosmicj said:
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The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
We battled about this back in 2018 and I have always appreciated your fact based disagreement on the Barkley pick. There is absolutely no "I told you so" here and I have in fact actually come to agree with your point of view on positional value, primarily because of the inherent injury risk of the position. The Risk/Reward and opportunity cost is unjustified and it really does screw up cap economics. You were right, I was wrong.
Just a lesson that you should always have the courage of your convictions and not back down irrespective of the head winds against you. Glad you are posting again.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Jones was selected as the 6th pick to replace a QB icon for a flagship franchise. And QB is arguably the most important position in team sports.
For three years, Jones's performance ran the spectrum: some good, some really bad, and a lot of mediocrity. So, in a sport where it's critical to get the position correct, especially with the economics factor of trying to leverage the benefit of a rookie contract, is it really any wonder the level of daily scrutiny that has occurred?
And if you are having a bad day with your mental health become the volume is so overwhelming, let me give you some advice - don't reply. Ignore the content. There is no requirement that you have to read or reply to something that you like or don't like.
JFC, it's just a god damn football conversation. We're not talking about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling.
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
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"Barkley sucked until this year."
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Yes, I did. You said "Barkley sucked until this year, I know thats not a popular opinion."
It may be an "opinion" but if you look at the sky and say its yellow instead of blue and hey thats just your opinion, everyone is going to think you're an idiot.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Another candidate for post of the year.
Yes, there is a good chance the game will end.
If the game went on forever, that would be weird.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Well, I am not the only one with that opinion, and I have data points that support my opinion.
Further I have analysis that suggest that the data points that I am looking at correlate to winning football.
Also analysis to suggest that the data point (total yards) you are using has no effect on winning or losing.
There was a time when people said the world was flat. Those that said it was a sphere were called idiots.
There were people who said the heavens were fixed, and the Earth was the center of the universe. Those who said the sun was the center and it is a system held together by gravity were called idiots.
That puts me in the company of the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, and Newton... I'm good with that.
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You should consider also liking the Giants chances if it plays out this way Saturday night. Good chance the game is going to end no?
Another candidate for post of the year.
Yes, there is a good chance the game will end.
If the game went on forever, that would be weird.
to "the" end.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
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He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
If people disappeared because of takes that wound up being wrong, you'd have vanished into thin air while you were still in diapers. Can it.
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Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
The point of my post was that somebody said that those who have stood by their criticisms of Jones and Barkley are no longer here. My point was that I am still a critic of Brakley's first 4 years, and I am still here. Thus refuting the STATEMENT he was making.
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The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
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In comment 16001940 UConn4523 said:
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He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
OL play especially regarding the tun wasn't as bad as many here suggest. Further, I believe that Barkley made them look worse.
There were plenty of examples of Barkley "dancing". From what I saw his dancing was a poor read on the blocks in front of him. As a RB you read the helmet of the defensive player on the other side of the block. Whichever side the helmet is on, go the OTHER way. Time and time again, Barkley either cut into the defenders leverage, or tried to reverse course. Either way it allowed the defender to shed the block and make the play. Had Barkley made the right read, there were yards to be gained.
He has been doing this much much better this year. The dancing has stopped, he takes the play to hole and then makes his cuts to make nearby defenders miss. If he fails, he still gets what was there. If he succeeds we get plays like the 28 yard TD.
Direct quote.
Your obsession with Terps is frightening.
Can you cite your "direct quote," kiddo?
OL play especially regarding the RUN
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
When a player is personally responsible for 6 INTs because the ball banged off his hands, there is usually going to be some condemnation associated with it, along with dropping the game winning pass vs the Eagles a couple years back. That stuff does not normally sit well with fans.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Jones just put up points and production that people said couldn't happen because of his surroundings.
Jones' performances the past two games are on par with any QB in the league IMO. He looked different, made consistently tougher throws, imo.
I still think it's very much an open question what Jones ceiling is. If it were answered, I think we'd see a $50mm deal coming his way. The lesser debates, however have been answered.
2. Dex, while not top tier at the time, was clearly a keeper at that price.
3. To date Jones didn’t earn $22m guaranteed or whatever it was, certainly not before Daboll was able to work with him for a season.
4. It’s infinitely more difficult to find out what you have a QB than any other position, so the comparison doesn’t make much sense.
5. It sends a message to DJ that he’s got to step up if he wants another contract.
I feel like you know all this already though, why fake it?
All of these tie into cosmic's point about relative performance, though.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
If he either thought Jones was a franchise QB or would develop like he did in the last few games, you bet your bottom dollar he would have exercised the option.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
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In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
Please, show me all the posts that are not acknowledging that Jones has played extremely well down the stretch and deserves his share of the credit for leading us to the Divisional round of the playoffs.
Show me anybody that is saying we should not give Jones a contract.
Even Producer said we should give him a contract.
Quit making up BS narratives.
I posted a list of post that show quite the opposite above. I showed you mine, now you show me yours!
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
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and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
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In comment 16002117 UConn4523 said:
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and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
Not to mention that prior to this year Dex had been healthier than Daniel Jones and even if Dex did not develop as a pass rusher his run stuffing ability would have justified the 5th year option as a 1 year deal (maybe a slight overpay, but within the realm of what he would get on open market)
I liked the decision and still fully in agreement with it.
IMO comparing the 5th year on the two players is apples to oranges, just completely different in just about every way imaginable.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
IMO comparing the 5th year on the two players is apples to oranges, just completely different in just about every way imaginable.
Could not agree more. I never understood why he wasn't playing the Nose. That seemed obvious to me.
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Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
+1
As I keep saying, we gotta pay the man, but there is more to prove.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
One strong game in 2021, and a few in 2019 look more like outliers, prior to his last three games, not to mention different schemes, playcallers, etc. If you believe otherwise, good for you but it was a lot of hoping and hope is not a plan.
Your opinion of my football acumen carries no weight for me. You just sound like a chicken with its head cut off.
So, that was out of nowhere.
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Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
Precisely. It's been three games, let's see how he performs versus top NFL defenses, and DCs who are going to focus as much as they need to on gameplanning to eliminate his strengths. Jones isn't the same passer without his running game activated, for example. Will he be able to throw the offense out of a defense rolling out Cover Two or other shell looks. He needs to hit those routes in the deep thirds to achieve it. Granted, he might not have the horses to do it right now either, but it doesn't mean he can. Prove it.
So, that was out of nowhere.
There is enough variation/out of nowhere in DJ's game versus the last few years and even a good bit of the beginning of this season to default to a franchise tag on him.
It may not be what Team Jones wants and may cost more in the end, but that's where his profile likely fits right now.
And as a critic that didn't typically see "franchise QB" in the predominate balance of most his seasons including this one, agreeing that he may have earned that tag level now is a pretty big step up.
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Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
If people disappeared because of takes that wound up being wrong, you'd have vanished into thin air while you were still in diapers. Can it.
This just feels like a prietty good candidate for post of January and a darkhouse for post of the year.
Jon acknowledged those "top performances" and rightfully called them outliers, because that's what they were.
Do you need "outliers" explained to you, little buddy?
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Nope. Wrong again. Played great at New Orleans, played great at Washington, played well at home against Carolina, played pretty well on the road against KC, nearly led them to victory after a tough early pick. Played well at home against Philly.
Again, these were all games that he played in with a shitty coaching staff and leaky OL.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Lol, spot on
Oh get over yourself.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
That was pretty funny...
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
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you should really give up, junior. Plenty of other posters you can talk ball at your level.
Oh get over yourself.
You'll be alright, spider.
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But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
Spot on..As I said, he threw a lot of shit against the wall, but wasn’t right about all that much, yet got credit for stuff most other posters never got credit for..
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Not really. He’s proven himself a great deal. Philly and Dallas are better than we are. Doesn’t mean we can’t beat them. If he doesn’t get it done, so be it..Other good QBs have come up short as well
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I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
Now apply this logic directly to Jones and his critics prior to this break out final half of the season... The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
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The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Gotcha. As I’ve said, rankings don’t mean all that much, imv..Can he lead a team during crunch time, be it with his arm, legs or both? Sure. But like any good QB, it doesn’t mean he can’t shit the bed in any given game
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Listen slugger, even the posters who share your opinions here don't take you seriously as a human being.
McL explained his point of view, and it's a perfectly reasonable one. Run success rate is as valid a metric as any, and you might find the discussion advanced by questioning that metric or offering your own viewpoint (other than just reciting awards). Instead, you take someone else's post out of context, ignore their explanation, and then make a broad claim about their character as a human being.
The next time you post something that adds value to BBI will be the first.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Nothing to trigger. We all know, even at his best, DJ may come up short against a superior Philly team..Has nothing to do with his worth
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
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In comment 16002418 Sean said:
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
He’s done it all year. Doesn’t mean he can’t have a bad game including some errors. Like any good Qb, He’s mot perfect. He’s had a helluva year, no matter what he does in Philly
They can still evaluate some aspects of his performance. It could be a wipeout for the whole offense, we'll see. I don't think it makes or changes their fundamental decision on Jones, I would think it's already been decided to retain him. The smoke was out there before the wildcard game. Perhaps it impacts terms slightly, eg Giants want 3 years, agent wants 4-5, but I'd expect him back in September.
Me? Depends on the level of bad game. If he throws a pick six with 3 INTS, a fumble and overall horrible decisions, that's problematic.
If he has a pick and just can't find the same rhythm as the Vikings game, I think most would conclude we were simply overmatched and couldn't carryover the momentum from the prior week.
All of a sudden, the wr's are open. The OL is blocking well. It's like they were hiding their true offense until they were ready.
59% completion
160 yards
2 td's
1 int
Loss.
115 yards
3 INT's
Imagine the giants moved on from Eli after that.
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
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in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
You and I look at football (and most things) very differently. I'm a process and moving parts guy, I'm watching for different things, tho the end result of win or lose is the same for both of us.
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In comment 16002553 UConn4523 said:
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in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
Simms included, same as Jones now. Take the next step!
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In comment 16002418 Sean said:
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
I said this shit at 6-1. Done deal if we make the playoffs, more money and years for every postseason win. It seemed intuitive.
People said really stupid shit to me like:
"You don't know that, Schoen and Daboll might might want something different even if they win a playoff game."
Forget Jones shitting the bed. He is on a roll, we may very lose, it won't be Jones.
If he gets to championship game it will be impossible sell anything other than locking him up. Agree.
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But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
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In comment 16001294 santacruzom said:
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But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
Except OBJ skepticism didn’t last all that long..Jones has been 3 years..
The other side of the argument was that we should sign OBJ because he's too talented to give up and if it doesn't work out, we can always trade him.
Well, Terps was right that OBJ never matured, but he was completely wrong about how the Giants should handle it. I think it worked out just fine.
Terps was not right about OBJ.
i'm fine with "ongoing evaluation" of Jones. just don't move the posts after you all predicted that Jones was never going to be a good quarterback.
just because posters say a bunch of words doesn't mean they "talk ball" at a different level.
you won't like hearing this but "your level" of football included thinking Jones wasn't very good at all and the team wouldn't be good. well, they are 1 win away from the nfc championship largely due to Jones' play. "your level" of ball included laughing at others when they said stuff like Jones can be as good as some of the top passers like Herbert, or that we'd rather have Jones than Jackson, etc, and if he's just given a bit more to work with he could take off. welp, Jones played better than Herbert this year and not only is Jackson hurt again but it seems like the players are going in opposite directions.
so, yeah, i get it man. you know football. just don't act like your knowledge of the game is so far and away above and beyond others here.
got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Now I'm being lectured about Jones development. That's rich.
Bottomline, a lot of people from respected analysts to your average fan, missed badly on Jones. However DG and the Maras did not. What Gettleman and the Front office missed badly on was getting the right coaching for him and properly addressing WR and the OL. Basically the top 3 things a QB needs to succeed.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Anything’s possible, we all know that and SAID SO..My money is on Daboll..Look what he did with Josh Allen..Look what he’s done with DJ..They should be here a long time, fingers crossed. Josh Allen is a top 5 QB, but truth be told, he has been more error prone without Daboll, even though
The Bills are one of the best teams in the league. DJ is no Josh Allen and may never be, but I sure wish he had a Diggs to open everything up..Maybe Schoen will hit the lottery in the draft.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Taking a step back, we still averaged fewer than 1 TD per game passing and had average offense output despite Barkley having a great year. Plowing big dollars into the core pieces of the 2022 offense worries me.
I was more surprised by Barkley's production than Jones' this season. I said that I don't think Jones could be a top ten passer or lead us to a top ten offense (frankly, I view all other discussions a waste of time - you rather have elite talent around you like the 49ers or you need a great QB - and we do not have a roster like the 49ers). Happily, recent games have made me significantly less confident in that recent view and I look forward to seeing Jones continue developing next season. But this year doesn't make me want to dish out a six year deal or something like that.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
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I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Allen signed his extension after his third year (keep in mind this was the first year he was eligible for an extension).
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
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I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
More TD passes are a product of the PC..When they’ve “opened” him up, he’s thrown for more TDs..I trust the process. If we can get a #1 burner with actual hands, I see an open O possibly similar to Buffalo’s
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Right before the 2021 season began. Right before his fourth season.
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In comment 16002800 christian said:
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I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Allen signed his extension after his third year (keep in mind this was the first year he was eligible for an extension).
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
Thanks. So JA’s first breakout year under Daboll, he threw 5 more TDs than DJ
Sure, it just depends where each party draws their line.
Given the market, and the teams who need QBs, there is likely a team willing to give Jones 5/200M with 100M fully guaranteed. That team may very well be coached by Mike Kafka next year for instance.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
Thanks. So JA’s first breakout year under Daboll, he threw 5 more TDs than DJ
Yup. And then he took a big step up. This is the model I’d like to see the Giants follow. Pay Jones big money, when he takes that next step.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
Anything less than a multi-year contract deal with an AAV < $35M means:
+ Denton is a piss poor agent, or...
+ Jones gives the team a discount to help add infantry.
If it's the discount, that is a helluva gesture despite the team not exercising the 5th year option.
That is funny.
I think the big difference between any negotiations after the regular season vs. after the post season will be the full guarantees.
Denton is ripping himself and Jones off, if he doesn’t get Kyler Murray money - 100M fully guaranteed.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
so any 3 year deal is probably starting around 100m guaranteed.
4+ year deals increase from there, and the 4th year+ is where the nyg start benefiting "buying out" more than 1 free agent year.
5 year 200m with more than 50% guaranteed has made sense to me since the first minny game, basically a diet kyler deal, but the longer it goes do the nyg get a little more aggressive and try to get say 8 years of control?
the 2nd biggest fully guaranteed amount for any QB in history is russell wilson's 125m (total guaranteed was 165). Kyler is 3rd behind both of those.
do you go aggressive on the total guarantees and give jones a guarantee more in line with wilson's deal above kyler, but get more years at a lower AAV than kyler? if jones continues playing like he is that would end up being a steal, but he also obviously hedges himself with big guarantees (ideally in a preferable structure for nyg).
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Great post and spot on. Glad you jumped into the deep waters ;)
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
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I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I'm not justifying my opinion, but I am giving up on trying to communicate with posters who just want sunshine and unicorns. There's no consistent in-depth football talk involved. I don't have the energy to waste. Besides, Dunk is much better at it and I'd rather read him.
prematurely, that's a thought-provoking post.
I would recommend Kevlar from this point forward... ;)
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If I had to guess:
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
Personally I think Brady will hang ‘em up. Jimmy G could be in play for Vegas and as well as back to NE. I assume Atlanta will be in the qb market (whether vet or draft is tbd). I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I thought the golden boy Willis was their long-term answer. ;-) Seriously though, I think holding on to Tannehill would only cost around $9 million more than cutting him, so I can see them rolling with him, Dobbs and Willis, and see how everything shakes out.
Atlanta is definitely in QB Hell. The have the 8th pick in the draft, but I don't know if that gets them Young, Stroud or Levis...
Rex Ryan apparently has always like Jones, even coming out of college. Starts on about 1:00 min...
Get Up - ( New Window )
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That was very funny. Well done.
LMAO
Tannehill looks cooked to me. Titans are probably entering rebuild mode shortly.
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got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Have you ever noticed that even among those who share your opinion, no legitimate regular ever comes to your defense? I suspect it's because even the people who agree with you, don't want to agree with YOU.
Beyond that, though, let's try to imagine a scenario (I know how much you love hypotheticals) where BBI is an actual physical place, like a village. And every day for five years, it rains. And every day, for five years, one of the village children steps outside of his hut and predicts that it's finally going to be sunny today. And this continues for a few years, with nothing but more rain and the village child's failed predictions.
One day, miraculously, after hundreds - if not thousands - of failed predictions of sunshine, the sun finally does come out, and the rain finally pushes off past the horizon. The villagers rejoice! The rain has ended and the sun returned. Better yet, the hope for sunny tomorrows has returned. Everyone in the village is excited... except for the village child who has been predicting sun for years.
One of the village elders approaches the child and asks him why he's upset if the sun finally came out. And the child replies, "why won't anyone give me credit? I'm the only one who has been predicting sun this whole time!"
That's you. You're the child.
The Giants have done a great job of bringing Jones along and opening the playbook at the right time. It seems as though they understood that the season is a marathon and didn't need to throw everything at Jones right away. However, even as a skeptic, I knew that no decision had to be made in week 8, there's a whole season for Jones to prove his worth.....and he's done just that.
There are some amazing comparisons to Eli's career as well, the only big difference is the timeline(thanks Joe Judge). I'm excited to see what Jones can become.
This is beyond boring at this point, but I'm sure no one ever had a problem with healthy skepticism.
It was the mouth-breathing crowd that boo'd him from the moment he was drafted (failed IQ test #1) and never stopped. There were a few people on this message board (we all know who they are because it's impossible to forget) who went so ridiculously beyond that, and polluted the board.
If you were a healthy skeptic taking a wait and see approach, that's obviously fine. At best, people were taking a wait and see. Milton broke it down several times nicely last summer.
It's time to put this to bed. I'm sure any real Giants fans are happy with what they're seeing from Jones, and most of the people who were polluting this board the worst have organically disappeared.
It's time to move on and get back to discussing the entire team, that all the sudden has a bright future. IMO.
His best year was with the lowest expectations. Under Judge he was seemingly under a lot of pressure and played tight often.
Undoubtably this coaching staff has helped with that but will a big deal and the lofty expectations of a huge media market change that dynamic? It is speculation either way, but most of these conversations seem to revolve around the clear step forward he has taken and his overall improved play in a vacuum. There are people that are changed by that next step up in income, I don't think that is him.
But if we are being honest about what we've seen, the guy isn't immune to pressure. And the contract he is going to get is going to turn it up a few notches.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I doubt money adds any more pressure than understanding what expectations are for a QB of the NY Giants. He would have buckled already imv.
Now how that money impacts impacts things from a team perspective is a fair consideration but by all indications it seems they are going to keep costs down early.
My hope is they capitalize on that early in the deal.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I respectfully disagree right back lol. Remember when Jerry Reese said Eli had happy feet? Eli often got flustered early on and there were just as many skeptics.
The comparisons for me are easy:
-They are both very laid back and cool, calm collected.
-They both had a lot of skeptics from day 1
-They both went through a lot of ups and downs early in their careers.
-They both were very polarizing early in their careers where half of the fan base didn't believe in them.
The biggest difference is circumstances that they were drafted into.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
His body of work has been part him and part the team around him including coaches. You can debate which was greater and I stayed neutral because I felt those situation was terrible around him.
He has shown he can handle pressure because he has the internal makeup to overcome obstacles it until it got better around him as did his play. This on top of the pressure of following a legend.
I don't see money changing this other than what I stated from a team perspective.
Just because you did not achieve a desired result does not mean you could not handle pressure. There are many other factors to this outside the pressure component from both a individual and team perspective imv.
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but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
Poised as you?
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
I actually think he's looked less stressed this year, especially the last month.
But the prior three years? Jones looked like he was getting ready to get off a Higgins boat on Omaha Beach...
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
This is one of those things where I just think you are again being too optimistic to state with any kind of assurance that a person that has spent a good deal of time in their NFL career looking overwhelmed is immune from that going forward.
That construction of this offense has given Jones more easy throws this year than the three prior seasons combined. The misdirection, rolls, play action, etc have created a lot of straight forward throws inside ten yards for Jones. I think christian posted a stat recently - and I verified it on NextGen - that Jones was last in the league in average intended air yards. Which means he's throwing a lot of high % passes intended to make his job less complicated.
And to his credit, he's executed.
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to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
Which tools were misread, honest question? Your arm is your arm, your speed is your speed, mechanics are your mechanics. Most of the rest is between the ears, of which handling pressure is at the top of the list. Game pressure, outside noise, etc.
Darn old has all the tools to be successful in the NFL, it’s why he was drafted high and netted two seconds. But he’s routinely showed he can’t handle the pressure.
Its what Daboll said he would be evaluation Jones under before the season.
Making decisions and executing under duress.
2019-2021 doesn't apply anymore. Call me crazy. It doesn't matter. HE was a young player on a terrible team with terrible coaching. Where Jones is now as a player and team is a lifetime removed from 2021.
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In comment 16003371 UConn4523 said:
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to overcome than reading and hearing how much you suck on a daily basis, and for years on end. I think Jones can handle whatever’s thrown at him.
Conversely, look at Darnold. Same situation, same pressure, but had more tools coming in. Didn’t matter, he folded like a lawn chair in NY and then again with Carolina.
Or maybe the NFL misread Darnolds tools. There is a ton of projecting going from college to the NFL and teams are often wrong. That doesnt mean one guy handles pressure better than the other, although that certainly could be a part of it.
Which tools were misread, honest question? Your arm is your arm, your speed is your speed, mechanics are your mechanics. Most of the rest is between the ears, of which handling pressure is at the top of the list. Game pressure, outside noise, etc.
Darn old has all the tools to be successful in the NFL, it’s why he was drafted high and netted two seconds. But he’s routinely showed he can’t handle the pressure.
The most important tool which is impossible to gauge....between the ears. The ability to process a much faster, much more complex game. Physical tools are easy to spot, that's why the guys that are 6'5" 220 lbs with strong arms are taken early.