The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
We battled about this back in 2018 and I have always appreciated your fact based disagreement on the Barkley pick. There is absolutely no "I told you so" here and I have in fact actually come to agree with your point of view on positional value, primarily because of the inherent injury risk of the position. The Risk/Reward and opportunity cost is unjustified and it really does screw up cap economics. You were right, I was wrong.
Just a lesson that you should always have the courage of your convictions and not back down irrespective of the head winds against you. Glad you are posting again.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
I disagree with all of the bellyaching by many of my thin-skinned friends.
Jones was selected as the 6th pick to replace a QB icon for a flagship franchise. And QB is arguably the most important position in team sports.
For three years, Jones's performance ran the spectrum: some good, some really bad, and a lot of mediocrity. So, in a sport where it's critical to get the position correct, especially with the economics factor of trying to leverage the benefit of a rookie contract, is it really any wonder the level of daily scrutiny that has occurred?
And if you are having a bad day with your mental health become the volume is so overwhelming, let me give you some advice - don't reply. Ignore the content. There is no requirement that you have to read or reply to something that you like or don't like.
JFC, it's just a god damn football conversation. We're not talking about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Yes, I did. You said "Barkley sucked until this year, I know thats not a popular opinion."
It may be an "opinion" but if you look at the sky and say its yellow instead of blue and hey thats just your opinion, everyone is going to think you're an idiot.
Saquon Barkley had over 2,000 total yards and was an all pro as a rookie, on a terrible team.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Well, I am not the only one with that opinion, and I have data points that support my opinion.
Further I have analysis that suggest that the data points that I am looking at correlate to winning football.
Also analysis to suggest that the data point (total yards) you are using has no effect on winning or losing.
There was a time when people said the world was flat. Those that said it was a sphere were called idiots.
There were people who said the heavens were fixed, and the Earth was the center of the universe. Those who said the sun was the center and it is a system held together by gravity were called idiots.
That puts me in the company of the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, and Newton... I'm good with that.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
The point of my post was that somebody said that those who have stood by their criticisms of Jones and Barkley are no longer here. My point was that I am still a critic of Brakley's first 4 years, and I am still here. Thus refuting the STATEMENT he was making.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
OL play especially regarding the tun wasn't as bad as many here suggest. Further, I believe that Barkley made them look worse.
There were plenty of examples of Barkley "dancing". From what I saw his dancing was a poor read on the blocks in front of him. As a RB you read the helmet of the defensive player on the other side of the block. Whichever side the helmet is on, go the OTHER way. Time and time again, Barkley either cut into the defenders leverage, or tried to reverse course. Either way it allowed the defender to shed the block and make the play. Had Barkley made the right read, there were yards to be gained.
He has been doing this much much better this year. The dancing has stopped, he takes the play to hole and then makes his cuts to make nearby defenders miss. If he fails, he still gets what was there. If he succeeds we get plays like the 28 yard TD.
Terps literally said, and I quote, “if Schoen is stupid enough to think that this team can win with Jones, well then he’s not the guy for the job that we all thought he is.” And some posters agreed with that.
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
When a player is personally responsible for 6 INTs because the ball banged off his hands, there is usually going to be some condemnation associated with it, along with dropping the game winning pass vs the Eagles a couple years back. That stuff does not normally sit well with fans.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Jones just put up points and production that people said couldn't happen because of his surroundings.
Jones' performances the past two games are on par with any QB in the league IMO. He looked different, made consistently tougher throws, imo.
I still think it's very much an open question what Jones ceiling is. If it were answered, I think we'd see a $50mm deal coming his way. The lesser debates, however have been answered.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
The point about Schoen not exercising Jones’ option
Schoen didn’t “hate” Jones. He came to an objective judgement that Jones’ performance was lacking, using a level of expertise none of us have.
If he either thought Jones was a franchise QB or would develop like he did in the last few games, you bet your bottom dollar he would have exercised the option.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
Please, show me all the posts that are not acknowledging that Jones has played extremely well down the stretch and deserves his share of the credit for leading us to the Divisional round of the playoffs.
Show me anybody that is saying we should not give Jones a contract.
Even Producer said we should give him a contract.
Quit making up BS narratives.
I posted a list of post that show quite the opposite above. I showed you mine, now you show me yours!
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
Not to mention that prior to this year Dex had been healthier than Daniel Jones and even if Dex did not develop as a pass rusher his run stuffing ability would have justified the 5th year option as a 1 year deal (maybe a slight overpay, but within the realm of what he would get on open market)
on his decision making under duress. Perhaps JS just wanted to add a little more pressure and not have any ties if things went a different way. He said it would be a good problem to have if Jones played well this year.
I liked the decision and still fully in agreement with it.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
+1
As I keep saying, we gotta pay the man, but there is more to prove.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
Thinking that Jones has "come out of nowhere" means to me that people are just conveniently forgetting his top performances throughout the years, some even last year.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
and Jon, you've doubted Jones' ability his entire career...no offense. So you're not the arbiter here of "we need to see continued success..."
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
One strong game in 2021, and a few in 2019 look more like outliers, prior to his last three games, not to mention different schemes, playcallers, etc. If you believe otherwise, good for you but it was a lot of hoping and hope is not a plan.
Your opinion of my football acumen carries no weight for me. You just sound like a chicken with its head cut off.
Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
Precisely. It's been three games, let's see how he performs versus top NFL defenses, and DCs who are going to focus as much as they need to on gameplanning to eliminate his strengths. Jones isn't the same passer without his running game activated, for example. Will he be able to throw the offense out of a defense rolling out Cover Two or other shell looks. He needs to hit those routes in the deep thirds to achieve it. Granted, he might not have the horses to do it right now either, but it doesn't mean he can. Prove it.
This sharp decline in turnovers and rushing totals were not expected. Nor was the huge uptick in red zone efficiency.
So, that was out of nowhere.
There is enough variation/out of nowhere in DJ's game versus the last few years and even a good bit of the beginning of this season to default to a franchise tag on him.
It may not be what Team Jones wants and may cost more in the end, but that's where his profile likely fits right now.
And as a critic that didn't typically see "franchise QB" in the predominate balance of most his seasons including this one, agreeing that he may have earned that tag level now is a pretty big step up.
Thinking that Jones has "come out of nowhere" means to me that people are just conveniently forgetting his top performances throughout the years, some even last year.
Jon acknowledged those "top performances" and rightfully called them outliers, because that's what they were.
Do you need "outliers" explained to you, little buddy?
Quote:
In comment 16001859 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him. It was ungenerous. Everyone on the 2021 Giants was being dragged down by a dysfunctional environment. Thomas, Slayton, Barkley. Everyone.
You do realize that Thomas and Barkley are all pros right? What are you talking about? The only idiots who thought Thomas and Barkley sucked are no longer posting here.
Barkley sucked until this year. I know that i not a popular opinion, but that is mine and I am still here.
My criteria for being a "good" RB is different from most here. Mine starts with not getting stuffed so many times.
But, hey most disagree, that's life.
I'm still here and I have said, and will continue to say that Barkley had an excellent season. By far his best. He deserves the accolades for what he has done this year.
We battled about this back in 2018 and I have always appreciated your fact based disagreement on the Barkley pick. There is absolutely no "I told you so" here and I have in fact actually come to agree with your point of view on positional value, primarily because of the inherent injury risk of the position. The Risk/Reward and opportunity cost is unjustified and it really does screw up cap economics. You were right, I was wrong.
Just a lesson that you should always have the courage of your convictions and not back down irrespective of the head winds against you. Glad you are posting again.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Jones was selected as the 6th pick to replace a QB icon for a flagship franchise. And QB is arguably the most important position in team sports.
For three years, Jones's performance ran the spectrum: some good, some really bad, and a lot of mediocrity. So, in a sport where it's critical to get the position correct, especially with the economics factor of trying to leverage the benefit of a rookie contract, is it really any wonder the level of daily scrutiny that has occurred?
And if you are having a bad day with your mental health become the volume is so overwhelming, let me give you some advice - don't reply. Ignore the content. There is no requirement that you have to read or reply to something that you like or don't like.
JFC, it's just a god damn football conversation. We're not talking about the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling.
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
Quote:
"Barkley sucked until this year."
Yeah, except in 2018 where he was the rookie of the year and all pro, and 2019 where he amassed 1500 total years while basically missing 4 games.
Yeah, he really sucked.
Did you read what I wrote?
Yes, I did. You said "Barkley sucked until this year, I know thats not a popular opinion."
It may be an "opinion" but if you look at the sky and say its yellow instead of blue and hey thats just your opinion, everyone is going to think you're an idiot.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Another candidate for post of the year.
Yes, there is a good chance the game will end.
If the game went on forever, that would be weird.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Well, I am not the only one with that opinion, and I have data points that support my opinion.
Further I have analysis that suggest that the data points that I am looking at correlate to winning football.
Also analysis to suggest that the data point (total yards) you are using has no effect on winning or losing.
There was a time when people said the world was flat. Those that said it was a sphere were called idiots.
There were people who said the heavens were fixed, and the Earth was the center of the universe. Those who said the sun was the center and it is a system held together by gravity were called idiots.
That puts me in the company of the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, and Newton... I'm good with that.
Quote:
You should consider also liking the Giants chances if it plays out this way Saturday night. Good chance the game is going to end no?
Another candidate for post of the year.
Yes, there is a good chance the game will end.
If the game went on forever, that would be weird.
to "the" end.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
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He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
If people disappeared because of takes that wound up being wrong, you'd have vanished into thin air while you were still in diapers. Can it.
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Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
There are more here than Terps... I think Mike above was swayed eventually...
I think you might be surprised how many here actually share this opinion.
That said, Barkley has been litigated to death and I am not interested in relitigating it here and now and with you.
The point of my post was that somebody said that those who have stood by their criticisms of Jones and Barkley are no longer here. My point was that I am still a critic of Brakley's first 4 years, and I am still here. Thus refuting the STATEMENT he was making.
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The defense of DJ has always involved criticizing everyone else around him.
No one has been hating the WRs or OL. Simply pointing out the fact that poor pass protection negatively affects a QBs performance isn't hating the OLmen.
Simply stating that our WRs were bottom of the league, is not hating. It's a fact that the guy who's now probably our #1, Hodgins, was not on an NFL roster about 11 weeks ago (31 other teams had the chance to take him, either while he was on PS or waived). I love the guy, glad he's stepping up and think he's part of the future.
It's a fact that Slayton was barely on our roster at the beginning of the year. He had to take a massive paycut to league minimum to make the roster and was a healthy scratch the first couple weeks.
It's a fact that Richie James was a late 7th rd pick, who was not resigned by his original team (despite being only 26 yrs old at the time) and was signed by us for league minimum as WR depth, but largely for punt returns.
No one hates these guys and it was only in response to the Jones critics, that the reality of our WRs is mentioned. It shouldn't have been necessary, but the Jones critics refused to consider that WR talent affects QB performance.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
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In comment 16001940 UConn4523 said:
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He was great in 2018 and really good in 2019, then missed 2020. If he sucked in 2018/19 then so did just about every RB in the league. What a strange stance.
Barkley was essentially last in the league in what I consider the most important stat. Run Success Rate.
When you believe a stat is the most important measure, and a player is last in that stat, then you are likely to say he sucked.
As I said, I have different criteria for measuring RBs. I stick by my criteria. You can stick by yours. I will ask though, if Barkley was so great, how come the Giants only won 9 games during that time span. Yeah, lots of reasons. Then I will ask why is the team playing well and winning this year... Yeah lots of reasons. I would suggest that Barkley's play mirrored/contributed to final results in all the years in question.
I’m not challenging your criteria. I’m trying to understand why you left so much out, like our OL play which, if I’m not mistaken was ranked in the 30’s from 2019-2021. And why we didn’t win more? There’s multiple reasons - Bad coaching, poor OL, poor QB play, bad defense.
It’s strange to apply team success on 1 player, especially when that one player relies heavily on what happens in front of him. Barkley was a really good running back on a bad team with poor leadership and no real direction. He’s running now like he did in 2018/19, but more people are doing their jobs too so the wins are accumulating. This is one of the easier equations IMO.
We aren’t too far off from multiple threads per week about people wanting “hard yards” from Wayne Gallman. We aren’t in the playoffs let alone winning a game with that strategy.
OL play especially regarding the tun wasn't as bad as many here suggest. Further, I believe that Barkley made them look worse.
There were plenty of examples of Barkley "dancing". From what I saw his dancing was a poor read on the blocks in front of him. As a RB you read the helmet of the defensive player on the other side of the block. Whichever side the helmet is on, go the OTHER way. Time and time again, Barkley either cut into the defenders leverage, or tried to reverse course. Either way it allowed the defender to shed the block and make the play. Had Barkley made the right read, there were yards to be gained.
He has been doing this much much better this year. The dancing has stopped, he takes the play to hole and then makes his cuts to make nearby defenders miss. If he fails, he still gets what was there. If he succeeds we get plays like the 28 yard TD.
Direct quote.
Your obsession with Terps is frightening.
Can you cite your "direct quote," kiddo?
OL play especially regarding the RUN
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
When a player is personally responsible for 6 INTs because the ball banged off his hands, there is usually going to be some condemnation associated with it, along with dropping the game winning pass vs the Eagles a couple years back. That stuff does not normally sit well with fans.
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
And if Schoen didn’t exercise the option because he had to get to know Jones better, why did he exercise Dexter’s?
Occam’s razor: Dex flashed ability, but Schoen had real issues with Jones’ performance.
Jones just put up points and production that people said couldn't happen because of his surroundings.
Jones' performances the past two games are on par with any QB in the league IMO. He looked different, made consistently tougher throws, imo.
I still think it's very much an open question what Jones ceiling is. If it were answered, I think we'd see a $50mm deal coming his way. The lesser debates, however have been answered.
2. Dex, while not top tier at the time, was clearly a keeper at that price.
3. To date Jones didn’t earn $22m guaranteed or whatever it was, certainly not before Daboll was able to work with him for a season.
4. It’s infinitely more difficult to find out what you have a QB than any other position, so the comparison doesn’t make much sense.
5. It sends a message to DJ that he’s got to step up if he wants another contract.
I feel like you know all this already though, why fake it?
All of these tie into cosmic's point about relative performance, though.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
If he either thought Jones was a franchise QB or would develop like he did in the last few games, you bet your bottom dollar he would have exercised the option.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
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In comment 16001920 Dr. D said:
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
What exactly does criticism of Engram have to do with the fact that some Jones critics still refuse to accept that Jones is pretty good, that he's led us to the conference final 4 in his first playoff and that he's most likely going to get a multi-year contract and be our franchise QB, possibly for at least the next 5 years?
Is there a Giant fan who thinks Engram was wrongly criticized? Like it wasn't his fault he dropped and deflected so many passes that hit him in the hands?
The Engram critics saw him be not resigned by the Giants and have to sign a 1 yr prove it deal with another team. The Jones critics are going to find the Giants are going to sign him to a pretty big extension and build the team around him.
Please, show me all the posts that are not acknowledging that Jones has played extremely well down the stretch and deserves his share of the credit for leading us to the Divisional round of the playoffs.
Show me anybody that is saying we should not give Jones a contract.
Even Producer said we should give him a contract.
Quit making up BS narratives.
I posted a list of post that show quite the opposite above. I showed you mine, now you show me yours!
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
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and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
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In comment 16002117 UConn4523 said:
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and it’s relatively easy to see what you have in Dex (DTs as a whole) than it is a QB who your guru HC/OC combo hasn’t worked with yet. I backed not picking up the option because it made fiscal sense - in the event Jones outperformed it it would be a good thing, which it is.
Neither Dexter nor DJ had lived up to their draft status as of this off-season. Picking up a 5th-year option indicated that Daboll and Schoen saw a clear pathway to improving them. They saw it with Dex. They weren’t sufficiently confident about it with DJ.
I think we’re agreeing with each other, UConn.
While in general I agree, there is also the financial commitment which is much smaller for the 17th pick than it is for the 6th.
Not to mention that prior to this year Dex had been healthier than Daniel Jones and even if Dex did not develop as a pass rusher his run stuffing ability would have justified the 5th year option as a 1 year deal (maybe a slight overpay, but within the realm of what he would get on open market)
I liked the decision and still fully in agreement with it.
IMO comparing the 5th year on the two players is apples to oranges, just completely different in just about every way imaginable.
Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
IMO comparing the 5th year on the two players is apples to oranges, just completely different in just about every way imaginable.
Could not agree more. I never understood why he wasn't playing the Nose. That seemed obvious to me.
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Conclusion: criticism of Jones before his improvement this year was evidence based and shared by at least one high-level professional. The improvement we have seen was unexpected to Schoen and Daboll.
That’s the thesis.
Logical and smart, and Jones' recent performance has literally come out of nowhere. They could have believed Jones had it in him, as many fans did. But, proof has to be in the pudding when you're talking about the financial commitment the QB position requires in today's NFL. He still has to continue to demonstrate the passer aspect is going to continue versus better defenses too. It could (should) be the difference between both sides compromising on a 3 year deal at money closer to the Tag, and a 4-5 year deal at $40M+ AAV.
Too many getting emotional and heads twisted over posters being grounded in looking for continued success in outlining the above.
+1
As I keep saying, we gotta pay the man, but there is more to prove.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
That's obvious. When it comes from you it just sounds like you are still so shocked that its happening that you can't believe it.
One strong game in 2021, and a few in 2019 look more like outliers, prior to his last three games, not to mention different schemes, playcallers, etc. If you believe otherwise, good for you but it was a lot of hoping and hope is not a plan.
Your opinion of my football acumen carries no weight for me. You just sound like a chicken with its head cut off.
So, that was out of nowhere.
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Jon, that's where we disagree. Jones' recent performance has not "come out of nowhere." He displayed numerous times in his career the ability to put up big time numbers. Hell he had 5 touchdowns against Washington as a rookie. Plenty of good performances scattered throughout average/below average.
He didn't just suck and then all of a sudden become this great dual threat.
I saw the flashes. I know what you are talking about. It had me on the fence.
But lots of QBs have flashed. Do you remember Kevin Kolb. Throw for over 300 in his first 2 starts. Then what... Pffft. Not much.
The question isn't whether he flashed. The question is whether it is repeatable, sustainable, and consistent, including against top notch defenses. DJ checked none of those boxes. Frankly, he still hasn't... He has shown enough that there is a reasonable expectation that he will, but he still needs to prove it.
Precisely. It's been three games, let's see how he performs versus top NFL defenses, and DCs who are going to focus as much as they need to on gameplanning to eliminate his strengths. Jones isn't the same passer without his running game activated, for example. Will he be able to throw the offense out of a defense rolling out Cover Two or other shell looks. He needs to hit those routes in the deep thirds to achieve it. Granted, he might not have the horses to do it right now either, but it doesn't mean he can. Prove it.
So, that was out of nowhere.
There is enough variation/out of nowhere in DJ's game versus the last few years and even a good bit of the beginning of this season to default to a franchise tag on him.
It may not be what Team Jones wants and may cost more in the end, but that's where his profile likely fits right now.
And as a critic that didn't typically see "franchise QB" in the predominate balance of most his seasons including this one, agreeing that he may have earned that tag level now is a pretty big step up.
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Terps was another one who said Barkley sucked and was "not a football player" and someone who "didn't affect the game."
Really shocking that this same guy disappeared off the face of the earth.
If people disappeared because of takes that wound up being wrong, you'd have vanished into thin air while you were still in diapers. Can it.
This just feels like a prietty good candidate for post of January and a darkhouse for post of the year.
Jon acknowledged those "top performances" and rightfully called them outliers, because that's what they were.
Do you need "outliers" explained to you, little buddy?