Jon - I'm glad to hear my "football acumen" for you carries no weight, considering you've been dead wrong about this QB and roster, moreover. Maybe if you had been listening to what some of us were saying about Jones, you might not be as surprised.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Nope. Wrong again. Played great at New Orleans, played great at Washington, played well at home against Carolina, played pretty well on the road against KC, nearly led them to victory after a tough early pick. Played well at home against Philly.
Again, these were all games that he played in with a shitty coaching staff and leaky OL.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Because I figured it was just another Daniel Jones "I told you so" thread. Then It got up to 300 posts I was like, hey there must be something more to this.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
Spot on..As I said, he threw a lot of shit against the wall, but wasn’t right about all that much, yet got credit for stuff most other posters never got credit for..
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
RE: Fact: DJ has had a solid year. He’s a good QB.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Not really. He’s proven himself a great deal. Philly and Dallas are better than we are. Doesn’t mean we can’t beat them. If he doesn’t get it done, so be it..Other good QBs have come up short as well
I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
Now apply this logic directly to Jones and his critics prior to this break out final half of the season... The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
RE: RE: Fact: DJ has had a solid year. He’s a good QB.
The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Gotcha. As I’ve said, rankings don’t mean all that much, imv..Can he lead a team during crunch time, be it with his arm, legs or both? Sure. But like any good QB, it doesn’t mean he can’t shit the bed in any given game
Saquon Barkley had over 2,000 total yards and was an all pro as a rookie, on a terrible team.
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Listen slugger, even the posters who share your opinions here don't take you seriously as a human being.
McL explained his point of view, and it's a perfectly reasonable one. Run success rate is as valid a metric as any, and you might find the discussion advanced by questioning that metric or offering your own viewpoint (other than just reciting awards). Instead, you take someone else's post out of context, ignore their explanation, and then make a broad claim about their character as a human being.
The next time you post something that adds value to BBI will be the first.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Nothing to trigger. We all know, even at his best, DJ may come up short against a superior Philly team..Has nothing to do with his worth
RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
RE: RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
Quote:
Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
He’s done it all year. Doesn’t mean he can’t have a bad game including some errors. Like any good Qb, He’s mot perfect. He’s had a helluva year, no matter what he does in Philly
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
They can still evaluate some aspects of his performance. It could be a wipeout for the whole offense, we'll see. I don't think it makes or changes their fundamental decision on Jones, I would think it's already been decided to retain him. The smoke was out there before the wildcard game. Perhaps it impacts terms slightly, eg Giants want 3 years, agent wants 4-5, but I'd expect him back in September.
so Jones goes out and has a bad game. Similar to Eli's first playoff game against the Eagles. We can't get the offense going and the game is uncompetitive. What do you do with DJ?
Me? Depends on the level of bad game. If he throws a pick six with 3 INTS, a fumble and overall horrible decisions, that's problematic.
If he has a pick and just can't find the same rhythm as the Vikings game, I think most would conclude we were simply overmatched and couldn't carryover the momentum from the prior week.
I've been skeptical of Jones most of this season. Going into the last few weeks, I was fully convinced that he wasn't the guy. Then we opened up the playbook and looked like a legitimate offense. The people pumping their chest were wrong too. They said nobody can succeed with these WR's. Nobody can succeed with this OL. Jones needs help.
All of a sudden, the wr's are open. The OL is blocking well. It's like they were hiding their true offense until they were ready.
Lets say he has a game similar to Eli's first time playing Philly in
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
but it’s a silly prerequisite. Jones proved he can win a road playoff game, something that takes many QBs several tries at doing, or not at all. There’s nothing about his game that suggests he can’t beat either team, we just haven’t had this coaching staff until now and we are still short in the talent department by a pretty substantial margin.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
There are levels to performance, and Jones has stepped up a few in the past three wins as compared to the rest of 2022. Performances unlike the rest of the season, but reminiscient of a few positive outliers in past seasons. He needs to go up to the level where he plays really well against Philly, Dallas, the best of the conference. This is not a ding, this is a reality of progression.
You and I look at football (and most things) very differently. I'm a process and moving parts guy, I'm watching for different things, tho the end result of win or lose is the same for both of us.
in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
Simms included, same as Jones now. Take the next step!
RE: RE: RE: Cutting through all the bullshit of the thread
There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
FINALLY. Wtf?
I said this shit at 6-1. Done deal if we make the playoffs, more money and years for every postseason win. It seemed intuitive.
People said really stupid shit to me like:
"You don't know that, Schoen and Daboll might might want something different even if they win a playoff game."
Forget Jones shitting the bed. He is on a roll, we may very lose, it won't be Jones.
If he gets to championship game it will be impossible sell anything other than locking him up. Agree.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terps was a big loss for the site
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Terps was a big loss for the site
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
Except OBJ skepticism didn’t last all that long..Jones has been 3 years..
The argument was on whether or not the Giants should sign OBJ.
terps argued that they shouldn't(obviously) because we would miss our window of being able to trade him. He argued that once signed, the best we'd get is a rd 3.
The other side of the argument was that we should sign OBJ because he's too talented to give up and if it doesn't work out, we can always trade him.
Well, Terps was right that OBJ never matured, but he was completely wrong about how the Giants should handle it. I think it worked out just fine.
Terps wasn't a trailblazer on that. Some of us said we need to take that risk because he's so talented and if it doesn't work out, you can trade him. Terps' stance was that he will be untradable once signed.
again, moving the goalposts. he has to beat philly and dallas now, even though 6 months ago you wanted him gone and thought the team would suck again.
i'm fine with "ongoing evaluation" of Jones. just don't move the posts after you all predicted that Jones was never going to be a good quarterback.
just because posters say a bunch of words doesn't mean they "talk ball" at a different level.
you won't like hearing this but "your level" of football included thinking Jones wasn't very good at all and the team wouldn't be good. well, they are 1 win away from the nfc championship largely due to Jones' play. "your level" of ball included laughing at others when they said stuff like Jones can be as good as some of the top passers like Herbert, or that we'd rather have Jones than Jackson, etc, and if he's just given a bit more to work with he could take off. welp, Jones played better than Herbert this year and not only is Jackson hurt again but it seems like the players are going in opposite directions.
so, yeah, i get it man. you know football. just don't act like your knowledge of the game is so far and away above and beyond others here.
jon, if you call yourself a process and moving parts guy, then how could it be possible that your evaluation of Jones was so off? a process and moving parts guy would have understood that the hand he was dealt early on on his career was one of the worst in the sport. and look now, better process, better moving parts like OL, a healthy barkley...and wow he's a lot better. i don't get that.
jon, if you call yourself a process and moving parts guy, then how could it be possible that your evaluation of Jones was so off? a process and moving parts guy would have understood that the hand he was dealt early on on his career was one of the worst in the sport. and look now, better process, better moving parts like OL, a healthy barkley...and wow he's a lot better. i don't get that.
Bottomline, a lot of people from respected analysts to your average fan, missed badly on Jones. However DG and the Maras did not. What Gettleman and the Front office missed badly on was getting the right coaching for him and properly addressing WR and the OL. Basically the top 3 things a QB needs to succeed.
I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Nope. Wrong again. Played great at New Orleans, played great at Washington, played well at home against Carolina, played pretty well on the road against KC, nearly led them to victory after a tough early pick. Played well at home against Philly.
Again, these were all games that he played in with a shitty coaching staff and leaky OL.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
Lol, spot on
Oh get over yourself.
Turns out I should have trusted my first instict.
That was pretty funny...
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
Quote:
you should really give up, junior. Plenty of other posters you can talk ball at your level.
Oh get over yourself.
You'll be alright, spider.
Quote:
But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
Spot on..As I said, he threw a lot of shit against the wall, but wasn’t right about all that much, yet got credit for stuff most other posters never got credit for..
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Not really. He’s proven himself a great deal. Philly and Dallas are better than we are. Doesn’t mean we can’t beat them. If he doesn’t get it done, so be it..Other good QBs have come up short as well
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I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the other teams left in the playoffs, they all have receivers who are considered to be quite a lot higher quality than ours. It's not personal.
The eagles traded up to take D. Smith in the 1st rd. They traded 2 picks including a 1st rd pick for AJ Brown. Sound like our WRs?
Are we trying to ignore the hate Engram got? Turned out this year he was part of organizational failings as much as Jones was.
As the hardcore Jones critics would say, (they don't "hate" Jones), the criticism of Engram wasn't personal or hate, at least not from me. But he deserved all the criticism he got, as a player.
He had pretty terrible hands, while here. That's not an opinion. Stats back that up. The eye test backed that up. His drops directly led to stalled drives; his deflections directly led to multiple INTs.
Most likely Kafka and Daboll would've used him better. But if there was such a thing as plus/minus for NFL players, there's no question he was a negative player overall while here.
Now apply this logic directly to Jones and his critics prior to this break out final half of the season... The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.
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The last 3 games, I think he’s been a great QB..More weapons, solidify the OL and he should continue to be solid. He’s done it all this year, against good Ds, decent Ds and bad Ds, just like every other good QB.
Agree with you, Jones has been great the past few games. I have put myself in the Jones skeptic camp the past couple years and couldn't be happier. He has really stepped up. Is this what he will be the next few years? I don't know. But the elite game in big moments have me excited.
I went into this year thinking there was a 20% chance he would be back. I think it's over 90% now.
I'm still not sure Jones is a top ten QB or will be. But it's nice the debate has moved on from what it was in August.
Gotcha. As I’ve said, rankings don’t mean all that much, imv..Can he lead a team during crunch time, be it with his arm, legs or both? Sure. But like any good QB, it doesn’t mean he can’t shit the bed in any given game
You are the only person on planet earth who would say "he sucked."
In all seriousness. This is why most posters here do not take you seriously as a human being.
Listen slugger, even the posters who share your opinions here don't take you seriously as a human being.
McL explained his point of view, and it's a perfectly reasonable one. Run success rate is as valid a metric as any, and you might find the discussion advanced by questioning that metric or offering your own viewpoint (other than just reciting awards). Instead, you take someone else's post out of context, ignore their explanation, and then make a broad claim about their character as a human being.
The next time you post something that adds value to BBI will be the first.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
You're going to trigger emotions.
Nothing to trigger. We all know, even at his best, DJ may come up short against a superior Philly team..Has nothing to do with his worth
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
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In comment 16002418 Sean said:
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
That's been a big part of the debate, they'll need to make a decision perhaps before some crucial evidence is provided. It's not moving goal posts, it's following a logical process of development relative to future cost. Now, Jones can perform up to a spec in this game where he doesn't have to win the game, just play it the right way as required by Daboll. Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
Protect the ball, be clean in the pocket, make the right decisions, hit the plays that present themselves, and pull the trigger. Don't beat yourself.
He’s done it all year. Doesn’t mean he can’t have a bad game including some errors. Like any good Qb, He’s mot perfect. He’s had a helluva year, no matter what he does in Philly
They can still evaluate some aspects of his performance. It could be a wipeout for the whole offense, we'll see. I don't think it makes or changes their fundamental decision on Jones, I would think it's already been decided to retain him. The smoke was out there before the wildcard game. Perhaps it impacts terms slightly, eg Giants want 3 years, agent wants 4-5, but I'd expect him back in September.
Me? Depends on the level of bad game. If he throws a pick six with 3 INTS, a fumble and overall horrible decisions, that's problematic.
If he has a pick and just can't find the same rhythm as the Vikings game, I think most would conclude we were simply overmatched and couldn't carryover the momentum from the prior week.
All of a sudden, the wr's are open. The OL is blocking well. It's like they were hiding their true offense until they were ready.
59% completion
160 yards
2 td's
1 int
Loss.
115 yards
3 INT's
Imagine the giants moved on from Eli after that.
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
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in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
You and I look at football (and most things) very differently. I'm a process and moving parts guy, I'm watching for different things, tho the end result of win or lose is the same for both of us.
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In comment 16002553 UConn4523 said:
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in a 17 game season. I care about Jones and the Giants getting 10+ wins per year and I don’t care who it’s against. That’s a silly prerequisite especially with the talent gap between the two teams right now.
Parcells on the plane after losing to the Bears in 1985 said “we gotta figure out how to beat this team.” The Giants need to ultimately beat Philly & Dallas. It’s a huge opportunity for them Saturday night.
But as with the Bears (I was at that game, btw), they weren’t quite ready to take that step-until the following year.
Simms included, same as Jones now. Take the next step!
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In comment 16002418 Sean said:
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There is another threshold this franchise still needs to achieve: beating a full strength Philly & Dallas team when it matters most. Jones still needs to prove this.
Yeah, but the issue is...you need to make a decision before you are able to get answers to those questions. What are you suggesting? We need to beat Philly before you sign Jones? You won't sign Jones until he beats those teams?
You have to admit that we are at a talent deficit regarding this game, so expecting him to go into Philly and win seems a little unfair. So he can't really prove this yet.
I think there's a beyond-comprehension awful game outcome that could potentially sour some of what DJ has built up this season, but it's really remote and would have to be really awful - like worse than Collins in SB XXXV level bad.
So taking that out of the mix because it's so unlikely, DJ really only has upside going into this weekend. As you note, the Giants are at a talent deficit vs. the Eagles; I expect that Schoen and co. will do their best to contextualize every aspect of their roster evaluations, this week's game is no different. But even at a talent deficit, it's still possible for DJ to add another exclamation point to his season with another standout performance en route to victory.
I don't think DJ needs to win Saturday night to validate his season. But I do think if he does pull off the upset, it probably continues to add to his contract. I assume the AAV is at or approaching $40M right now, regardless of this weekend, but part of the reason why it's still a small notch below the top QB tier is the lack of success against the top teams in the division. It's effectively already baked into that price, even with the AAV as high as it is.
If DJ puts up another game like last weekend and the Giants find themselves in the NFCCG? How would that NOT result in him getting even more money (and more of it guaranteed)? Every playoff round advanced is another bit of leverage for Denton, IMO. That's how I'd approach it in his shoes, anyway.
The irony is that with each additional win, the Giants are presumably even more motivated to reach a deal with DJ on a contract, while the comparative value of the franchise tag becomes a larger and larger bargain for the Giants. How many more wins before the y1 cap hit in a massive multiyear contract starts to go even higher than the non-exclusive franchise tag value?
Economically, as soon as that happens, the tag should be a no-brainer. But I think the scenario where that happens (probably involves winning at least the conference) makes tagging DJ almost impossible to sell. If DJ takes this team to the Super Bowl, you're just hoping that Jim Denton buys you dinner first at that point, because that's about as close to a blank check as any player could possibly ask for.
I said this shit at 6-1. Done deal if we make the playoffs, more money and years for every postseason win. It seemed intuitive.
People said really stupid shit to me like:
"You don't know that, Schoen and Daboll might might want something different even if they win a playoff game."
Forget Jones shitting the bed. He is on a roll, we may very lose, it won't be Jones.
If he gets to championship game it will be impossible sell anything other than locking him up. Agree.
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But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
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In comment 16001294 santacruzom said:
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But you guys are clearly just bitter that he was right about OBJ at a time when nearly everyone else was defending him.
(I realize that's assigning a motive and position to you but that seems to be fair around here, right?)
I hate peeing on someones grave when they aren't here to defend themselves, but TERPS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT OBJ. PEOPLE ARE REWRITING HISTORY. Let me explain....
Terps was right that OBJ was a headcase that wasn't going to mature, but his whole argument was that we can't sign him because we will never trade him. He said we missed our window to trade him and once we signed him, the best we'd get is a 3rd rounder for him. Well, he was wrong.
The Giants signed him because you want to give elite talent every chance in the world and then when they realized it wouldn't work, they traded him and got a great haul....welcome sexy dexy.
So no, Terps wasn't right about how the giants should handle obj.
I don't remember the particulars of what round draft pick we'd get for OBJ and honestly, I don't really care about predicting a detail like that incorrectly. The more significant thing was he and a few (VERY few) others pegged OBJ as more trouble than he's worth well before everyone else did, and many people reacted to their anti-OBJ positions just the way they do toward their Jones skepticism.
Except OBJ skepticism didn’t last all that long..Jones has been 3 years..
The other side of the argument was that we should sign OBJ because he's too talented to give up and if it doesn't work out, we can always trade him.
Well, Terps was right that OBJ never matured, but he was completely wrong about how the Giants should handle it. I think it worked out just fine.
Terps was not right about OBJ.
i'm fine with "ongoing evaluation" of Jones. just don't move the posts after you all predicted that Jones was never going to be a good quarterback.
just because posters say a bunch of words doesn't mean they "talk ball" at a different level.
you won't like hearing this but "your level" of football included thinking Jones wasn't very good at all and the team wouldn't be good. well, they are 1 win away from the nfc championship largely due to Jones' play. "your level" of ball included laughing at others when they said stuff like Jones can be as good as some of the top passers like Herbert, or that we'd rather have Jones than Jackson, etc, and if he's just given a bit more to work with he could take off. welp, Jones played better than Herbert this year and not only is Jackson hurt again but it seems like the players are going in opposite directions.
so, yeah, i get it man. you know football. just don't act like your knowledge of the game is so far and away above and beyond others here.
got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Now I'm being lectured about Jones development. That's rich.
Bottomline, a lot of people from respected analysts to your average fan, missed badly on Jones. However DG and the Maras did not. What Gettleman and the Front office missed badly on was getting the right coaching for him and properly addressing WR and the OL. Basically the top 3 things a QB needs to succeed.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.