I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Anything’s possible, we all know that and SAID SO..My money is on Daboll..Look what he did with Josh Allen..Look what he’s done with DJ..They should be here a long time, fingers crossed. Josh Allen is a top 5 QB, but truth be told, he has been more error prone without Daboll, even though
The Bills are one of the best teams in the league. DJ is no Josh Allen and may never be, but I sure wish he had a Diggs to open everything up..Maybe Schoen will hit the lottery in the draft.
I believe the Giants will sign Jones to a lucrative multi-year deal after the season, and ownership on down will be onboard.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Taking a step back, we still averaged fewer than 1 TD per game passing and had average offense output despite Barkley having a great year. Plowing big dollars into the core pieces of the 2022 offense worries me.
I was more surprised by Barkley's production than Jones' this season. I said that I don't think Jones could be a top ten passer or lead us to a top ten offense (frankly, I view all other discussions a waste of time - you rather have elite talent around you like the 49ers or you need a great QB - and we do not have a roster like the 49ers). Happily, recent games have made me significantly less confident in that recent view and I look forward to seeing Jones continue developing next season. But this year doesn't make me want to dish out a six year deal or something like that.
When the Giants decided to keep him, I said it then and I believe it now, he was always getting two years. I hope they franchise him, invest in the weapons, shore up the depth on the line, and go kick the doors down in 2023.
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
I believe a tag only happens if negotiations break down.
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
More TD passes are a product of the PC..When they’ve “opened” him up, he’s thrown for more TDs..I trust the process. If we can get a #1 burner with actual hands, I see an open O possibly similar to Buffalo’s
Otherwise I see them working out a nice contract with amortizations allowing them to pursue what they need. Schoen’s a sharp and savvy guy, imv
Sure, it just depends where each party draws their line.
Given the market, and the teams who need QBs, there is likely a team willing to give Jones 5/200M with 100M fully guaranteed. That team may very well be coached by Mike Kafka next year for instance.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many Giants fans seem intent on acting like you can't be critical of a player or management as a "real" fan.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
for practical purposes jones is basically already signed for 2x80m (tags).
so any 3 year deal is probably starting around 100m guaranteed.
4+ year deals increase from there, and the 4th year+ is where the nyg start benefiting "buying out" more than 1 free agent year.
5 year 200m with more than 50% guaranteed has made sense to me since the first minny game, basically a diet kyler deal, but the longer it goes do the nyg get a little more aggressive and try to get say 8 years of control?
the 2nd biggest fully guaranteed amount for any QB in history is russell wilson's 125m (total guaranteed was 165). Kyler is 3rd behind both of those.
do you go aggressive on the total guarantees and give jones a guarantee more in line with wilson's deal above kyler, but get more years at a lower AAV than kyler? if jones continues playing like he is that would end up being a steal, but he also obviously hedges himself with big guarantees (ideally in a preferable structure for nyg).
and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many Giants fans seem intent on acting like you can't be critical of a player or management as a "real" fan.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Great post and spot on. Glad you jumped into the deep waters ;)
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
RE: RE: Yes, I predicted Jones would not succeed with NYG
I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I'm not justifying my opinion, but I am giving up on trying to communicate with posters who just want sunshine and unicorns. There's no consistent in-depth football talk involved. I don't have the energy to waste. Besides, Dunk is much better at it and I'd rather read him.
tag being discussed? Hasn't it been pretty much been made known that a multi-year deal is settled, it's just a matter of how many years it'll be? I think him winning more playoff games this post-season will increase however many years they're talking right now.
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
Personally I think Brady will hang ‘em up. Jimmy G could be in play for Vegas and as well as back to NE. I assume Atlanta will be in the qb market (whether vet or draft is tbd). I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I thought the golden boy Willis was their long-term answer. ;-) Seriously though, I think holding on to Tannehill would only cost around $9 million more than cutting him, so I can see them rolling with him, Dobbs and Willis, and see how everything shakes out.
I didn't think about Tennessee. I could see them transitioning from Tannehill, especially if Rodgers worms his way out of Green Bay. Willis looked a long, long way off as a passer, so I'm not sure the training wheels can be removed yet.
Atlanta is definitely in QB Hell. The have the 8th pick in the draft, but I don't know if that gets them Young, Stroud or Levis...
got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Have you ever noticed that even among those who share your opinion, no legitimate regular ever comes to your defense? I suspect it's because even the people who agree with you, don't want to agree with YOU.
Beyond that, though, let's try to imagine a scenario (I know how much you love hypotheticals) where BBI is an actual physical place, like a village. And every day for five years, it rains. And every day, for five years, one of the village children steps outside of his hut and predicts that it's finally going to be sunny today. And this continues for a few years, with nothing but more rain and the village child's failed predictions.
One day, miraculously, after hundreds - if not thousands - of failed predictions of sunshine, the sun finally does come out, and the rain finally pushes off past the horizon. The villagers rejoice! The rain has ended and the sun returned. Better yet, the hope for sunny tomorrows has returned. Everyone in the village is excited... except for the village child who has been predicting sun for years.
One of the village elders approaches the child and asks him why he's upset if the sun finally came out. And the child replies, "why won't anyone give me credit? I'm the only one who has been predicting sun this whole time!"
There may be a few "haters", but most were just "skeptics" and we've had every right to be skeptics. Daniel Jones has done a great job so far of proving the skeptics, like myself, and haters wrong. He's not a finished product yet either which is exciting.
The Giants have done a great job of bringing Jones along and opening the playbook at the right time. It seems as though they understood that the season is a marathon and didn't need to throw everything at Jones right away. However, even as a skeptic, I knew that no decision had to be made in week 8, there's a whole season for Jones to prove his worth.....and he's done just that.
There are some amazing comparisons to Eli's career as well, the only big difference is the timeline(thanks Joe Judge). I'm excited to see what Jones can become.
were skeptics too by the way and I think they know the game a little bit.
This is beyond boring at this point, but I'm sure no one ever had a problem with healthy skepticism.
It was the mouth-breathing crowd that boo'd him from the moment he was drafted (failed IQ test #1) and never stopped. There were a few people on this message board (we all know who they are because it's impossible to forget) who went so ridiculously beyond that, and polluted the board.
If you were a healthy skeptic taking a wait and see approach, that's obviously fine. At best, people were taking a wait and see. Milton broke it down several times nicely last summer.
It's time to put this to bed. I'm sure any real Giants fans are happy with what they're seeing from Jones, and most of the people who were polluting this board the worst have organically disappeared.
It's time to move on and get back to discussing the entire team, that all the sudden has a bright future. IMO.
another important factor that hasn't been discussed much because it is relatively new is how a big contract might affect Jones.
His best year was with the lowest expectations. Under Judge he was seemingly under a lot of pressure and played tight often.
Undoubtably this coaching staff has helped with that but will a big deal and the lofty expectations of a huge media market change that dynamic? It is speculation either way, but most of these conversations seem to revolve around the clear step forward he has taken and his overall improved play in a vacuum. There are people that are changed by that next step up in income, I don't think that is him.
But if we are being honest about what we've seen, the guy isn't immune to pressure. And the contract he is going to get is going to turn it up a few notches.
but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I never once saw Eli look overwhelmed. I don't know where these comparisons come from. They are both cerebral tall southern men and people seemed to want to reach for it, even when it wasn't there. They're wired differently on the field, Eli would do things that seemed absent minded. Jones has done plenty of things where he looked flustered. It's quite different. Eli never ever looked flustered.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
He took over the franchise from a two time Super Bowl MVP whose number has since been retired and whose pictures are all over the building.
I doubt money adds any more pressure than understanding what expectations are for a QB of the NY Giants. He would have buckled already imv.
Now how that money impacts impacts things from a team perspective is a fair consideration but by all indications it seems they are going to keep costs down early.
My hope is they capitalize on that early in the deal.
you are basically saying that the pressure of succeeding Eli didn't get to him. But I'm not sure that is the best point. The body of work on his first 3 seasons was extremely disappointing. I'm not sure you can at all say he handled that succession pressure well.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
but Daniel Jones has some eli in him. I don't think he's phased by these outside pressures. He just seems so cool, calm, collected and professional. It's not a concern of mine, that's for sure.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
I never once saw Eli look overwhelmed. I don't know where these comparisons come from. They are both cerebral tall southern men and people seemed to want to reach for it, even when it wasn't there. They're wired differently on the field, Eli would do things that seemed absent minded. Jones has done plenty of things where he looked flustered. It's quite different. Eli never ever looked flustered.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I respectfully disagree right back lol. Remember when Jerry Reese said Eli had happy feet? Eli often got flustered early on and there were just as many skeptics.
The comparisons for me are easy:
-They are both very laid back and cool, calm collected.
-They both had a lot of skeptics from day 1
-They both went through a lot of ups and downs early in their careers.
-They both were very polarizing early in their careers where half of the fan base didn't believe in them.
The biggest difference is circumstances that they were drafted into.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Anything’s possible, we all know that and SAID SO..My money is on Daboll..Look what he did with Josh Allen..Look what he’s done with DJ..They should be here a long time, fingers crossed. Josh Allen is a top 5 QB, but truth be told, he has been more error prone without Daboll, even though
The Bills are one of the best teams in the league. DJ is no Josh Allen and may never be, but I sure wish he had a Diggs to open everything up..Maybe Schoen will hit the lottery in the draft.
As a fan, I'd like them to be more conservative in the approach. Drawing big conclusions and making big commitments based on short spans of success, often leads to bad outcomes. I don't think books are written on 5 good games.
I remember a lot of the same posters on this site with a mouth full of Joe Judge after the last 5 games in 2020.
I'd prefer he do it again -- in the scenario so many BBIers envision. Better pass pro, better weapons, second year in the system. If his trajectory holds, he’ll be a top tier guy. Good for him, good for us. Pay the man. Better to pay him more off an MVP type season in 2023, than pay less now and he fizzles.
But if he fizzles this weekend or he proves to be more Nick Foles or Blake Bortles next year — I promise you won’t see me looking for an apology.
Taking a step back, we still averaged fewer than 1 TD per game passing and had average offense output despite Barkley having a great year. Plowing big dollars into the core pieces of the 2022 offense worries me.
I was more surprised by Barkley's production than Jones' this season. I said that I don't think Jones could be a top ten passer or lead us to a top ten offense (frankly, I view all other discussions a waste of time - you rather have elite talent around you like the 49ers or you need a great QB - and we do not have a roster like the 49ers). Happily, recent games have made me significantly less confident in that recent view and I look forward to seeing Jones continue developing next season. But this year doesn't make me want to dish out a six year deal or something like that.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
Quote:
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Allen signed his extension after his third year (keep in mind this was the first year he was eligible for an extension).
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
Quote:
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
He has to throw for more TD’s no doubt. He’s had a great year, but franchising him and getting a legit number 1 WR makes sense. Boost up the IOL and go for it.
More TD passes are a product of the PC..When they’ve “opened” him up, he’s thrown for more TDs..I trust the process. If we can get a #1 burner with actual hands, I see an open O possibly similar to Buffalo’s
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Right before the 2021 season began. Right before his fourth season.
Quote:
In comment 16002800 christian said:
Quote:
I’m a big fan of how Buffalo brought Allen and along and the milestones he hit before they paid him.
My preference is the Giants wait to make that huge dollar commitment until Jones shows year-over-year growth.
When did they sign JA to that contract? After his breakout year or second season after that?
Allen signed his extension after his third year (keep in mind this was the first year he was eligible for an extension).
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
Thanks. So JA’s first breakout year under Daboll, he threw 5 more TDs than DJ
Sure, it just depends where each party draws their line.
Given the market, and the teams who need QBs, there is likely a team willing to give Jones 5/200M with 100M fully guaranteed. That team may very well be coached by Mike Kafka next year for instance.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
- His 2nd year they were 10-6, Allen was 20TD/9INT/3K
- His 3rd year they were 13-3, 37/10/4.5K
Thanks. So JA’s first breakout year under Daboll, he threw 5 more TDs than DJ
Yup. And then he took a big step up. This is the model I’d like to see the Giants follow. Pay Jones big money, when he takes that next step.
If Jim Denton holds that line with Schoen (and why wouldn’t he if that’s market value), and Schoen disagrees, we could easily a tag.
Anything less than a multi-year contract deal with an AAV < $35M means:
+ Denton is a piss poor agent, or...
+ Jones gives the team a discount to help add infantry.
If it's the discount, that is a helluva gesture despite the team not exercising the 5th year option.
That is funny.
I think the big difference between any negotiations after the regular season vs. after the post season will be the full guarantees.
Denton is ripping himself and Jones off, if he doesn’t get Kyler Murray money - 100M fully guaranteed.
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
so any 3 year deal is probably starting around 100m guaranteed.
4+ year deals increase from there, and the 4th year+ is where the nyg start benefiting "buying out" more than 1 free agent year.
5 year 200m with more than 50% guaranteed has made sense to me since the first minny game, basically a diet kyler deal, but the longer it goes do the nyg get a little more aggressive and try to get say 8 years of control?
the 2nd biggest fully guaranteed amount for any QB in history is russell wilson's 125m (total guaranteed was 165). Kyler is 3rd behind both of those.
do you go aggressive on the total guarantees and give jones a guarantee more in line with wilson's deal above kyler, but get more years at a lower AAV than kyler? if jones continues playing like he is that would end up being a steal, but he also obviously hedges himself with big guarantees (ideally in a preferable structure for nyg).
Some are so starved for success and being wrong about Giant optimism that you are playing out your hurt feelings into outsized weighting of the wins you've been yearning for.
It's ironic. The reason some may be "right" about Jones is the same reason they were wrong about so much. They preferred their feelings and loyalty to the team over data. Growth is not a straight line. Both of Jones best games have been against the Vikings D. How can people be so confident we will get a certain Jones when in this his best season we've had plenty of games that would make him look like poor value based on the salary he will get.
Playing well against the Eagles would go a long way. But maybe the "told you so" people should take a lesson from their own history. If you are going to default to the most optimistic take all the time (or pessimistic) you are going to be wrong more often than people using other frameworks. So if you insist on using the optimism framework maybe focus less on the whose right thing?
Because it seems to have the same outcome regardless. Either your optimism proves misplaced and your feelings are hurt that you are wrong. Or your optimism was well placed and your feelings seem hurt because there is no amount of retribution sufficient. It is because you aren't upset about DJ critiques you are upset about how often YOU were wrong.
Great post and spot on. Glad you jumped into the deep waters ;)
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
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I get stuff wrong plenty over 28 years on BBI, and never said otherwise. I'd still wager my batting average is just fine, and I'm still knowledgeable about what Jones still has to do moving forward. That's not moving goal posts, that's the process and demonstrating progress. We all make mistakes and never did I proclaim otherwise.
Jones had to reach THIS stage in order to try and tackle the next stage. It's fucking logic.
This is ridiculous. You shouldn't feel you have to justify having an opinion. I'm sorry for the board they are doing this. Of course, we will all have opinions that will turn out right and wrong. This witch hunt is totally ludicrous. Especially where we are with Jones, you'd think he already won the Super Bowl, or went 5000/35/5. He's not Aaron Rodgers - just yet.
I'm not justifying my opinion, but I am giving up on trying to communicate with posters who just want sunshine and unicorns. There's no consistent in-depth football talk involved. I don't have the energy to waste. Besides, Dunk is much better at it and I'd rather read him.
prematurely, that's a thought-provoking post.
I would recommend Kevlar from this point forward... ;)
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If I had to guess:
Lamar Jackson — BAL
Tom Brady — LAV
Jimmy Garoppolo — NYJ
Derek Carr — TB
Reportedly Ron Rivera is telling OC candidates that Sam Howell will be the starter, this includes our old friend Pat Shurmur.
So that leaves Carolina as a prime candidate. Do other teams view Jones as a product of Daboll or a legit carry the franchise QB?
This isn’t a slight towards DJ, he should absolutely be back. But, these are legit questions when assessing his market.
I wouldn't rule out New Orleans. And with his kids on the east coast, I don't see Brady going to LV.
I wouldn't rule out New England, Miami or Houston.
Carolina is a weird one because they have struck out with Darnold and Mayfield. And two years ago, Mayfield won a playoff game and had a very good year.
I can't begin to imagine how the market views Jones's sudden success. It could go both ways in my eyes - Daboll is a QB Whisperer and he's done it again...or Jones is on a long leash and Daboll/Kafka are the offensive Svengalies...
Personally I think Brady will hang ‘em up. Jimmy G could be in play for Vegas and as well as back to NE. I assume Atlanta will be in the qb market (whether vet or draft is tbd). I also have no idea what Tennessee is going to do. Do they roll with Tannehill for one more year? He certainly seems to be in decline and their window is closing fast.
I thought the golden boy Willis was their long-term answer. ;-) Seriously though, I think holding on to Tannehill would only cost around $9 million more than cutting him, so I can see them rolling with him, Dobbs and Willis, and see how everything shakes out.
Atlanta is definitely in QB Hell. The have the 8th pick in the draft, but I don't know if that gets them Young, Stroud or Levis...
Rex Ryan apparently has always like Jones, even coming out of college. Starts on about 1:00 min...
Get Up - ( New Window )
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That was very funny. Well done.
LMAO
Tannehill looks cooked to me. Titans are probably entering rebuild mode shortly.
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got it. thanks man, your contributions are so great here.
Have you ever noticed that even among those who share your opinion, no legitimate regular ever comes to your defense? I suspect it's because even the people who agree with you, don't want to agree with YOU.
Beyond that, though, let's try to imagine a scenario (I know how much you love hypotheticals) where BBI is an actual physical place, like a village. And every day for five years, it rains. And every day, for five years, one of the village children steps outside of his hut and predicts that it's finally going to be sunny today. And this continues for a few years, with nothing but more rain and the village child's failed predictions.
One day, miraculously, after hundreds - if not thousands - of failed predictions of sunshine, the sun finally does come out, and the rain finally pushes off past the horizon. The villagers rejoice! The rain has ended and the sun returned. Better yet, the hope for sunny tomorrows has returned. Everyone in the village is excited... except for the village child who has been predicting sun for years.
One of the village elders approaches the child and asks him why he's upset if the sun finally came out. And the child replies, "why won't anyone give me credit? I'm the only one who has been predicting sun this whole time!"
That's you. You're the child.
The Giants have done a great job of bringing Jones along and opening the playbook at the right time. It seems as though they understood that the season is a marathon and didn't need to throw everything at Jones right away. However, even as a skeptic, I knew that no decision had to be made in week 8, there's a whole season for Jones to prove his worth.....and he's done just that.
There are some amazing comparisons to Eli's career as well, the only big difference is the timeline(thanks Joe Judge). I'm excited to see what Jones can become.
This is beyond boring at this point, but I'm sure no one ever had a problem with healthy skepticism.
It was the mouth-breathing crowd that boo'd him from the moment he was drafted (failed IQ test #1) and never stopped. There were a few people on this message board (we all know who they are because it's impossible to forget) who went so ridiculously beyond that, and polluted the board.
If you were a healthy skeptic taking a wait and see approach, that's obviously fine. At best, people were taking a wait and see. Milton broke it down several times nicely last summer.
It's time to put this to bed. I'm sure any real Giants fans are happy with what they're seeing from Jones, and most of the people who were polluting this board the worst have organically disappeared.
It's time to move on and get back to discussing the entire team, that all the sudden has a bright future. IMO.
His best year was with the lowest expectations. Under Judge he was seemingly under a lot of pressure and played tight often.
Undoubtably this coaching staff has helped with that but will a big deal and the lofty expectations of a huge media market change that dynamic? It is speculation either way, but most of these conversations seem to revolve around the clear step forward he has taken and his overall improved play in a vacuum. There are people that are changed by that next step up in income, I don't think that is him.
But if we are being honest about what we've seen, the guy isn't immune to pressure. And the contract he is going to get is going to turn it up a few notches.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I doubt money adds any more pressure than understanding what expectations are for a QB of the NY Giants. He would have buckled already imv.
Now how that money impacts impacts things from a team perspective is a fair consideration but by all indications it seems they are going to keep costs down early.
My hope is they capitalize on that early in the deal.
You can certainly say he didn't have the right environment to handle it, but handling the pressure would mean playing much better than he did.
I can buy some of that. The comparisons, however, between Eli and DJ in terms of how they play QB are what I find absurd. They are two completely different QBs.
But, but...Eli has been under pressure since he decided to play football at Isidore Newman HS following in the footsteps of Peyton and Cooper. And then he had the balls to go to Ole Miss where his father was a football legend. And then he went #1 in the draft, after he, Archie, and Condon manipulated the draft, and took on even more pressure...
So, Eli was under national scrutiny for over half his life and handled it with great poise.
The biggest point that absolutely shows he does feel the pressure is that he has flashed elite accuracy now in various stretches. Even in this season it has been fairly absent for the majority of entire games. The only logical explanation for what is happening there is between the ears.
Eli's incompletions were much more related to taking shots down the field which DJ does substantially less. Their styles as QBs are so different, not sure why it comes up time and time again.
They are just tall, smart and southern but you could throw Bill Clinton in there with them. And the step up from Bill Clinton's rushing ability to Eli's is probably just as close as Eli to Jones.
I respectfully disagree right back lol. Remember when Jerry Reese said Eli had happy feet? Eli often got flustered early on and there were just as many skeptics.
The comparisons for me are easy:
-They are both very laid back and cool, calm collected.
-They both had a lot of skeptics from day 1
-They both went through a lot of ups and downs early in their careers.
-They both were very polarizing early in their careers where half of the fan base didn't believe in them.
The biggest difference is circumstances that they were drafted into.