Is it time the NFL distinguishes between " "roughing the passer" 15 yd. personal foul, and " running into the passer" like they do with kickers?
The roughing the passer can really effect the game and is very difficult to adhere to in such a high speed all out game of football.
Running into the passer doesn't seem like an issue. They only want to flag the egregious stuff anyway. They flagged Dex because they thought it was more egregious than it actually was.
I doubt it. I think the ref behind the play threw the flag, and he couldn’t see that kind of glancing blow from the front from where he was positioned.
I do not think it was the hand glancing off the helmet. I think it was being flung around...
I do not think it was the hand glancing off the helmet. I think it was being flung around...
I think the angle you viewed that play in real time could affect whether or not you threw a flag there. It clearly was not roughing if you watch the play from the one side or behind the line of scrimmage (or obviously on instant replay).
But if you watch it from a few other angles it almost looks like he is flinging him on his head. I hate bad calls as much as anyone, but there is an element of human error when watching some of these plays at full speed.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
That BS call could have easily cost the Giants the game.
Tampa got TWO wins due to BS roughing calls.
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Because his hand hit the QB’s helmet before taking him to the ground.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
It is a penalty to hit the QBs helmet. The ref on the broadcast said it shouldn't have been called but it is a penalty. With that said, we don't know what the ref in the field called. All he said was roughing the passer. Usually if it is something where the defender his the QB's head, they will follow up the rough8ng the passer verbiage with blow to the head. The ref never said that so we are all left scratching our head. If the ref said blow to the head then I get it because I have seen way worse called on a QB with a finger grazing his facemask. On the other side of that, we have seen a handful of times here that a normal tackle is also called roughing the passer.
I know people say that you have to use discretion but I disagree. The rules should be written in a way that they are black and white. A ref's job is hard enough. The action moves fast, they dont have the benefit of replay, they don't have all the angles we have. Error will happen. It's natural but it should happen because of the things I stated, not because one refs interprets a rule different than another ref.
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In comment 16003005 Giant John said:
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Because his hand hit the QB’s helmet before taking him to the ground.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
It is a penalty to hit the QBs helmet. The ref on the broadcast said it shouldn't have been called but it is a penalty. With that said, we don't know what the ref in the field called. All he said was roughing the passer. Usually if it is something where the defender his the QB's head, they will follow up the rough8ng the passer verbiage with blow to the head. The ref never said that so we are all left scratching our head. If the ref said blow to the head then I get it because I have seen way worse called on a QB with a finger grazing his facemask. On the other side of that, we have seen a handful of times here that a normal tackle is also called roughing the passer.
I know people say that you have to use discretion but I disagree. The rules should be written in a way that they are black and white. A ref's job is hard enough. The action moves fast, they dont have the benefit of replay, they don't have all the angles we have. Error will happen. It's natural but it should happen because of the things I stated, not because one refs interprets a rule different than another ref.
No, you are wrong. It's NOT a penalty to graze the helmet. You see it ALL the time and there are no flags thrown.
I would change the rule as follows:
Rewind the clock to what the rules were for tackling the QB back to 1990 when it comes to tackling/hitting the QB above the waist.
Below the waste, I would keep the current rules in place. I would want to discourage going after the knee.
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In comment 16003019 ZogZerg said:
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In comment 16003005 Giant John said:
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Because his hand hit the QB’s helmet before taking him to the ground.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
It is a penalty to hit the QBs helmet. The ref on the broadcast said it shouldn't have been called but it is a penalty. With that said, we don't know what the ref in the field called. All he said was roughing the passer. Usually if it is something where the defender his the QB's head, they will follow up the rough8ng the passer verbiage with blow to the head. The ref never said that so we are all left scratching our head. If the ref said blow to the head then I get it because I have seen way worse called on a QB with a finger grazing his facemask. On the other side of that, we have seen a handful of times here that a normal tackle is also called roughing the passer.
I know people say that you have to use discretion but I disagree. The rules should be written in a way that they are black and white. A ref's job is hard enough. The action moves fast, they dont have the benefit of replay, they don't have all the angles we have. Error will happen. It's natural but it should happen because of the things I stated, not because one refs interprets a rule different than another ref.
No, you are wrong. It's NOT a penalty to graze the helmet. You see it ALL the time and there are no flags thrown.
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RULE 12 SECTION 2 ARTICLE 11
ROUGHING THE PASSER
RULE SUMMARY
VIEW OFFICIAL RULE
ROUGHING THE PASSER
Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical acts against a player who is in a passing posture (i.e. before, during, or after a pass) which, in the Referee’s judgment, are unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided by the following principles:
Roughing will be called if, in the Referee’s judgment, a pass rusher clearly should have known that the ball had already left the passer’s hand before contact was made; pass rushers are responsible for being aware of the position of the ball in passing situations; the Referee will use the release of the ball from the passer’s hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected; once a pass has been released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through the rusher’s first step after such release (prior to second step hitting the ground); thereafter the rusher must be making an attempt to avoid contact and must not continue to “drive through” or otherwise forcibly contact the passer; incidental or inadvertent contact by a player who is easing up or being blocked into the passer will not be considered significant.
A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.
In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area (see also the other unnecessary roughness rules covering these subjects).
Link - ( New Window )
I understand that but what is the definition of forcibly? What does the view look like to the ref. It is illegal to hit a QB in the head. The discretion is up to the ref.
Jihad Ward with a forcible hit to the head - ( New Window )
Every single quarterback sack shown would be called roughing today.
I get protecting the quarterback, but phantom roughing the passer has come at critical times altering many games this season; almost happened in last week’s game.
It has to be revisited and a more common sense approach has to be found.
That BS call could have easily cost the Giants the game.
Tampa got TWO wins due to BS roughing calls.
+1
That BS call could have easily cost the Giants the game.
Tampa got TWO wins due to BS roughing calls.
+1
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A directive was issued to the officials that mere grazing or glancing contact is not forcible and does not meet the complete definition of Roughing the Passer
I understand that but what is the definition of forcibly? What does the view look like to the ref. It is illegal to hit a QB in the head. The discretion is up to the ref. Jihad Ward with a forcible hit to the head - ( New Window )
Same ref (Adrian Hill). I will say from at least from one angle it looked like Ward had him around the neck and brought him to the turf that way which would meet the definition.
When that is specifically called, the ref usually indicates that a blow to the head was the reasoning. Adrian Hill did not, I think it was how he spun him, which was absurd considering he had him wrapped before Cousins got the ball away. Dex was finishing his tackle.
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In comment 16003005 Giant John said:
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Because his hand hit the QB’s helmet before taking him to the ground.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
It is a penalty to hit the QBs helmet. The ref on the broadcast said it shouldn't have been called but it is a penalty. With that said, we don't know what the ref in the field called. All he said was roughing the passer. Usually if it is something where the defender his the QB's head, they will follow up the rough8ng the passer verbiage with blow to the head. The ref never said that so we are all left scratching our head. If the ref said blow to the head then I get it because I have seen way worse called on a QB with a finger grazing his facemask. On the other side of that, we have seen a handful of times here that a normal tackle is also called roughing the passer.
Is it, or isn't it. If it is, than it should be, if it shouldn't be, it isn't.
Exactly! Wouldn’t Jones hit to the head on the sneak a penalty? Or is he considered a runner…. Which they don’t allow anyway😳.
So, NFL which is it - protecting QBs in the pocket but alls fair on sneaks?!!
F U B A R!
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Is truly with the QB getting hit in the head wouldn't they outlaw the QB sneak?
Exactly! Wouldn’t Jones hit to the head on the sneak a penalty? Or is he considered a runner…. Which they don’t allow anyway😳.
So, NFL which is it - protecting QBs in the pocket but alls fair on sneaks?!!
F U B A R!
Additionally, defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer WITH ALL OR MOST OF HIS BODY WEIGHT! ( now ref has to calculate is that 100% of Dex body weight or only 50%)WTF!!
In covering the passer position, Referees will be particularly alert to fouls in which defenders impermissibly use the helmet and/or facemask to hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer forcibly in the head or neck area .. nothing about glancing contact with helmet.
Just give QB flags like flag football . So there’s no question!
That BS call could have easily cost the Giants the game.
Tampa got TWO wins due to BS roughing calls.
Totally agree. The bar on what is considered roughing the passer is ridiculous right now. Anything more than a step post-throw should be a penalty, unless the rusher TRIES to stop.
The same ref in the sky that does the expedited review would stop the game to initiate the review by the ref.
(Assuming of course that it shouldn't have been called.)
Every single quarterback sack shown would be called roughing today.
I get protecting the quarterback, but phantom roughing the passer has come at critical times altering many games this season; almost happened in last week’s game.
It has to be revisited and a more common sense approach has to be found.
Indeed. Can you imagine what Joe Montana and Dan Marino think about this new era?
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In comment 16003019 ZogZerg said:
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In comment 16003005 Giant John said:
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Because his hand hit the QB’s helmet before taking him to the ground.
That's not a penalty. The ref during the broadcast said so.
It is a penalty to hit the QBs helmet. The ref on the broadcast said it shouldn't have been called but it is a penalty. With that said, we don't know what the ref in the field called. All he said was roughing the passer. Usually if it is something where the defender his the QB's head, they will follow up the rough8ng the passer verbiage with blow to the head. The ref never said that so we are all left scratching our head. If the ref said blow to the head then I get it because I have seen way worse called on a QB with a finger grazing his facemask. On the other side of that, we have seen a handful of times here that a normal tackle is also called roughing the passer.
I know people say that you have to use discretion but I disagree. The rules should be written in a way that they are black and white. A ref's job is hard enough. The action moves fast, they dont have the benefit of replay, they don't have all the angles we have. Error will happen. It's natural but it should happen because of the things I stated, not because one refs interprets a rule different than another ref.
No, you are wrong. It's NOT a penalty to graze the helmet. You see it ALL the time and there are no flags thrown.
In the refs opinion that day, Dex did not graze his helmet.
It's obviously a judgement call.
I think you can make a case either way - but IMO - you avoid that call at that time.
Running into the passer doesn't seem like an issue. They only want to flag the egregious stuff anyway. They flagged Dex because they thought it was more egregious than it actually was.
Making it reviewable is a great idea, I think they should do that for all PF penalties. Using the roughing/running into distinction is an interesting idea as well, although my fear is that refs would then call running into the passer more often.
I do not think it was the hand glancing off the helmet. I think it was being flung around...
Pisses me off all the time when they call unnecessary roughness and never explain what it was.
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that we were never told what was the real cause of that flag. None of the beats asked Daboll what he was told. And, I do not think DL was fined.
I do not think it was the hand glancing off the helmet. I think it was being flung around...
I think the angle you viewed that play in real time could affect whether or not you threw a flag there. It clearly was not roughing if you watch the play from the one side or behind the line of scrimmage (or obviously on instant replay).
But if you watch it from a few other angles it almost looks like he is flinging him on his head. I hate bad calls as much as anyone, but there is an element of human error when watching some of these plays at full speed.
But isn't that why the refs huddle, especially with a last minute game changing call?
Someone with a better angle should have spoken up.
DL, LW,, or KT lightly hit JH AS he’s passing: RTP.
Refs want to get out of Philly alive.
They are a multi multi billion dollar consortium and still do the weirdest shit like having insurance salesmen referee the biggest games in the sport as a part-time gig. How about a full-time squad of officials, use the XFL as and USFL as a feeder league where NFL ref prospects can get game refs.
They should take the physical and mental training of full-time refs as a serious project. Keep them sharp year round, have minimum fitness requirements etc.