NFT: NHL All-Star Rosters and General Discussion

- the Habs odds just got greater for Bedard with Cole Caufield out for the year with a shoulder injury.

Odd timing since he seemed fine. They hinted he has played through it.

Habs have been decimated the past couple years (seems like Habs and Giants in the same boat if someone shows me a stat about the Mets being among the most injured I'm going to start thinking it could be me):

Quote:

Man-Games Lost NHL @ManGamesLostNHL · 1h I don't typically call out individual teams, but the Montreal Canadiens need to take a critical look at their therapy team and strength and conditioning crew.

only have 5 All-star appearances and McDavid already has 6 and Gaudreau has 7.

seems off, especially Gaudreau unless you just figure it's a function of the idiotic one player per team (minimum) rule and the Pens had other options like Malkin, MAF, Letang, etc. and the Flames usually didn't.

Don't seem correct

In comment 16004395 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

only have 5 All-star appearances and McDavid already has 6 and Gaudreau has 7. seems off, especially Gaudreau unless you just figure it's a function of the idiotic one player per team (minimum) rule and the Pens had other options like Malkin, MAF, Letang, etc. and the Flames usually didn't.

This is Crosby’s ninth all star game.

In comment 16004413 Dang Man said:

Quote:

In comment 16004395 pjcas18 said: Quote: only have 5 All-star appearances and McDavid already has 6 and Gaudreau has 7. seems off, especially Gaudreau unless you just figure it's a function of the idiotic one player per team (minimum) rule and the Pens had other options like Malkin, MAF, Letang, etc. and the Flames usually didn't. This is Crosby’s ninth all star game.

5 didn't sound right - here is the link to the nhl.com story...maybe it's "appearances" vs selections and Crosby maybe didn't appear due to injury or something.
link - ( New Window )

that Rangers and Islanders have multiple all stars and Devils don’t.

But then again, the NHL ASG has been a joke for years, and now that the Pro Bowl is no more it is the absolutely most pointless.

Bratt?

got one player and then fans voted for the other 3 players per division, so yeah it's a joke, but it just means Rangers and Islanders fans voted more than the other fans in the metro.

In comment 16004460 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Bratt?

Nico. He deserves it more than Panarin but say la vi. The fans voted and that's that. I was pulling for another Devil to make it and them or the Canes definitely deserved it but in the end who cares, it's an exhibition game. More interested in games that count and making the playoffs...

should have made it too, but now that doesn't matter obviously being out for the year. Accolades and recognition do matter in some cases, so it should be treated a little seriously and not just a run some bots on a website and get a player elected method of selection. but not a big deal IMO.

If my team was in contention I'd just assume players get a couple days of rest instead of attending this event.

but I will say the NHL skills competition is the most fun all-star event of all the major sports.

We'll see how the NFL "pro-bowl" turns out this year since it will be more of that now, and I think that's a lot more interesting than the actual games.

.

In comment 16004511 gtt350 said:

Quote:

.

COL is in the Central. MacKinnon is on there.

has a torn Achilles (again).

Played 5 games this year, had 3 goals and who knows how long he's out now.

One of my favorite players in his early years, he was basically a 65 point per year, two-way player. One of those team leaders (hence wearing the C in MTL), the fact he was on CAR was kind of an embarrassment of riches. No tears for the Canes, but hope Max recovers.

In comment 16004556 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

has a torn Achilles (again). Played 5 games this year, had 3 goals and who knows how long he's out now. One of my favorite players in his early years, he was basically a 65 point per year, two-way player. One of those team leaders (hence wearing the C in MTL), the fact he was on CAR was kind of an embarrassment of riches. No tears for the Canes, but hope Max recovers.

That absolutely sucks.

struggling to finish, should even out IMO. If Zach Hyman was 0 he'd be leading the league in goals.

going above and beyond....

you need to ask yourself why EDM? Why can't you get a goalie. wasting McDavid and Draisaitl primes.

fan vote for All-star with no 1 per team requirement.

fired in VAN. Tocchet named HC.

Maybe the floodgates open now for trades - they hold a few cards. Boeser, Horvat, maybe Miller (if anyone wants to take on that contract). Maybe Hughes.

I've read only Pettersson is untouchable (and he only has one year left after this one before RFA)

In comment 16004458 regischarlotte said:

Quote:

that Rangers and Islanders have multiple all stars and Devils don’t. But then again, the NHL ASG has been a joke for years, and now that the Pro Bowl is no more it is the absolutely most pointless.

Why cause the are 1 place higher in the metro than the Rangers? Short lived. What have they done the last 5 years? Sorry. It is what it is. Grab your crying towel.

In comment 16004475 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

should have made it too, but now that doesn't matter obviously being out for the year. Accolades and recognition do matter in some cases, so it should be treated a little seriously and not just a run some bots on a website and get a player elected method of selection. but not a big deal IMO. If my team was in contention I'd just assume players get a couple days of rest instead of attending this event. but I will say the NHL skills competition is the most fun all-star event of all the major sports. We'll see how the NFL "pro-bowl" turns out this year since it will be more of that now, and I think that's a lot more interesting than the actual games.

Not sure how I missed it but not only is Cole Caufield out for the season, Slafkovsky is too.

Not a great rookie season, but flashed some good things.

Canadiens are a dumpster fire.

Petterson jumped of the bench a few steps early for a 2 on 1 and scored but you could clearly hear the whistle before the shot. I could see giving a few steps, but the replay showed guy coming off was by the blueline. Devs won it on the ensuing PP with a Dougie bomb. Tough break for the Pens but I feel like I'm fair on these calls and it was the right call. He left early.

In comment 16008752 Stu11 said:

Quote:

Petterson jumped of the bench a few steps early for a 2 on 1 and scored but you could clearly hear the whistle before the shot. I could see giving a few steps, but the replay showed guy coming off was by the blueline. Devs won it on the ensuing PP with a Dougie bomb. Tough break for the Pens but I feel like I'm fair on these calls and it was the right call. He left early.

I saw that - right call IMO. I like the "vicinity rule" with too many men as long as its called consistently. Habs vs Rangers they called MTL for too many in OT and it was ridiculous the guy was 3 feet away from the bench before the replacement came on the ice.

I think coaches, players, fans, etc. just want consistency in how the rules are applied.

In comment 16008026 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

fired in VAN. Tocchet named HC. Maybe the floodgates open now for trades - they hold a few cards. Boeser, Horvat, maybe Miller (if anyone wants to take on that contract). Maybe Hughes. I've read only Pettersson is untouchable (and he only has one year left after this one before RFA)

People seemed really pissed at the treatment Boudreau got, but I'm a little confused at what VAN did that was so bad?

In comment 16008907 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 16008026 pjcas18 said: Quote: fired in VAN. Tocchet named HC. Maybe the floodgates open now for trades - they hold a few cards. Boeser, Horvat, maybe Miller (if anyone wants to take on that contract). Maybe Hughes. I've read only Pettersson is untouchable (and he only has one year left after this one before RFA) People seemed really pissed at the treatment Boudreau got, but I'm a little confused at what VAN did that was so bad?

From what I've heard on NHL radio they've have basically let rumors slip out he's gonna be fired for weeks and felt he was a good professional that deserved more. Also like I said last week the Gm Rutherford has made public comments all season meanwhile it's the team he put together. I agree though they've underachieved and sooner or later the HC takes the fall. Boudreau has been around he knows it.

and I have been noticing these systemic defensive failures some teams experiences and I don't know why, maybe it's effort, maybe it's system, but it's inconsistent from one year to the next. While I do think someone like Jonathan Quick is probably two years past retirement, John Gibson and Thatcher Demko probably aren't.

Either way, IMO this is why Boudreau is no longer the coach. and like I said above, once again we will be wondering why EDM can't get a goalie. or is it Darnell Nurse and co that make their goalie look bad.

I personally feel they tell the story much better for Hockey than most sports. IMHO saves vs. expected goals against really tells the story with winning and losing in hockey.

In comment 16009530 Stu11 said:

Quote:

I personally feel they tell the story much better for Hockey than most sports. IMHO saves vs. expected goals against really tells the story with winning and losing in hockey.

agree. I am kind of a laggard accepting them (lol). If you look at some (especially the xgf/xga like stats) they will help explain what happened but won't necessarily predict what will happen if you know what I mean.

In comment 16009579 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 16009530 Stu11 said: Quote: I personally feel they tell the story much better for Hockey than most sports. IMHO saves vs. expected goals against really tells the story with winning and losing in hockey. agree. I am kind of a laggard accepting them (lol). If you look at some (especially the xgf/xga like stats) they will help explain what happened but won't necessarily predict what will happen if you know what I mean.

Yeah that's the struggle with advanced stats weighing predicting what's gonna happen as opposed to what happened. Goalies tend to be like hitters in baseball with hot and cold streaks. I think one offensive stat- controlled zone entry seems to have been a good predictor. Jack Hughes was too 5 in that the past few seasons and we see how he's taken off this year.

from 32 Thoughts.

I'd love Larkin if as Friedman wonders, if DET is in on Horvat, maybe means Larkin is available. I doubt they want to lose him for nothing (if he'd waive his NTC).


NHL Watcher
@NHL_Watcher
·
3m
Friedman on 32TP talking Devils/Horvat/Myers: "I think (Tyler) Myers is more likely the New Jersey's target than Horvat but I think they've kind've been around it"

NHL Watcher
@NHL_Watcher
·
48s
Friedman on 32TP talking Horvat rumours: "You know the team I really wonder about here and this is just my opinion, if it's true because Steve Yzerman doesn't say anything, that Larkin and the Red Wings are having trouble closing the deal, I wonder if Detroit's in this at all".

out for the year. Only played a few games, maybe came back too soon.

I like him, good player, big loss.

Man the Sens have been up there with Vancouver as well as Columbus as the biggest disappointments in hockey this season. I thought the Devs were going to have a hard enough time jumping past them before they could even contemplate competing for a playoff spot. Giroux and DeBrincat have been underwhelming and with Norris basically missing the season, they really have struggled. Talbot has actually been decent in net, Forsberg has been a complete sieve though. They have great young talent in Stutzle, Tkatchuk, Batherson and Sanderson. Maybe if they get the goaltending straightened out they could be a year or 2 behind the Devils breakout especially if they get lottery luck this year. Columbus is a complete unadulterated mess though. Minus 60 goal differential. Have fun there Johnny Hockey. Enjoy the next 7 years or so in that wonderful oasis of a city.

when trotz got fired it was an absolute gut punch and it has proven to be yet another example of how important good coaching is in all pro sports. the fact that lamoriello is probably the only gms in pro sports history to twice rehire coaches he fired is about the only hope left for this season.

Quote:

Chris Botta @ChrisBottaNHL 12h At Ottawa, then home to Detroit and Vegas. The Trotz firing by Lamoriello was a massive mistake. If #Isles fail to win 2 of these 3 before the long break (two vs not-good teams), the clock starts on the Prez/GM making another coaching change. Chris Botta @ChrisBottaNHL 12h Trotz and Lamoriello speak at least once a week. Trotz is still under contract. He would be a candidate. Barry is under no obligation to return. He’s likely better off taking over a new team this summer, but you never know. Trotz likes Lou and Scott Malkin, and Trotz is loyal. ChrisBottaNHL's avatar Chris Botta @ChrisBottaNHL 12h There are no other great candidates out there. No one better than Trotz. In NJ, Lamoriello twice fired coaches (Lemaire, Robinson) and re-hired them. Lou has fired coaches for less.

has been carrying the Islanders to an extent. I didn't watch last night to see what happened there, but to this point, he's the MVP.

Without Sorokin the NYI are a net negative as a team. as it is they are +2 goal differential.

can't wait. Definitely going to hit some games in the 2nd half and hopefully playoffs. It really is a great venue to watch a hockey game. I think the Metro is starting to separate, with the clear top 3 of Car/NJD/NYR. Pitt and Wash can make the playoffs but they're probably both on the back 9 of their windows. Still dangerous enough to give the top 3 a rough time and maybe beat them in a playoff series especialy with their experience over the Devils, but their cup contention days are probably done. Don't look now but the Sabres are hot, off a great OT win in Dallas last night they can make a run at a playoff spot.

In comment 16011750 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

has been carrying the Islanders to an extent. I didn't watch last night to see what happened there, but to this point, he's the MVP. Without Sorokin the NYI are a net negative as a team. as it is they are +2 goal differential.

he has been a flat out stud and they still can't stop giving up 4-5 goals against good teams. and those games are including several miraculous saves.

it is almost unthinkable how much their structure and defense has gone to crap. in a million years never would have expected lou lamoriello to get rid of a defensive system/coach in favor of such a calamitous outcome. if he made a worse decision in his whole career than firing trotz im not sure what it was. it may have been the worst decision of any nhl team since washington let him go post-cup.

In comment 16012452 Stu11 said:

Quote:

can't wait. Definitely going to hit some games in the 2nd half and hopefully playoffs. It really is a great venue to watch a hockey game. I think the Metro is starting to separate, with the clear top 3 of Car/NJD/NYR. Pitt and Wash can make the playoffs but they're probably both on the back 9 of their windows. Still dangerous enough to give the top 3 a rough time and maybe beat them in a playoff series especialy with their experience over the Devils, but their cup contention days are probably done. Don't look now but the Sabres are hot, off a great OT win in Dallas last night they can make a run at a playoff spot.

And it's with star talent in BUF.

Dahlin is proving worth the #1 overall pick.

People talk Norris and name Fox or Makar or Karlsson or Morrissey - I take Dahlin easily right now. He is playing a legit 2-way game.

Tage Thompson makes every team who has a big man prospect who has struggled early on rethink their opinion. If there is a better big man in the league right now I haven't seen him.

And Cozens, Tuch, a revitalized Skinner, etc.

Every year I say BUF has a lot of talent and then every year they disappoint, and they probably will this year too, but they're a fun team to watch with a good system, I think there is a chance they will hang around. Still need a few pieces, but I like what they're doing right now.

In comment 16012452 Stu11 said:

Quote:

can't wait. Definitely going to hit some games in the 2nd half and hopefully playoffs. It really is a great venue to watch a hockey game. I think the Metro is starting to separate, with the clear top 3 of Car/NJD/NYR. Pitt and Wash can make the playoffs but they're probably both on the back 9 of their windows. Still dangerous enough to give the top 3 a rough time and maybe beat them in a playoff series especialy with their experience over the Devils, but their cup contention days are probably done. Don't look now but the Sabres are hot, off a great OT win in Dallas last night they can make a run at a playoff spot.

Man did you pick a hell of a game to go to.

how or why Dougie Hamilton is on his 4th team.

I remember reading how he is a little quirky, but he's perennially just below Norris level (maybe one day he will be Norris level I'd say between 5 and 15 in voting many years), and that consistency is important for a blue line.

Yeah PJ I was going to come in and write about Dougie today. I looked through the advanced stats. He, Dahlin and obviously Karllson who's having a Paul Coffey like season are all absolutely off the charts in the offensive cats for Dmen. Dougie is probably the best Dman in the league at hitting the net with his shot. I said Nico was probably the biggest Devil All Star snub but it's a Shame Dougie won't be there because I'd love to see him in the hardest shot competition. The guy has an absolute bomb when he gets it tee'd up. Unbelievable feed from Jack on the game winner, he was plastered into the boards and made a perfect pass from flat on his stomach.
Great night in the league last night. 4 OT games, including a wild 7-6 Florida-Pitt game Letang returns from a month or so away with 4 points and the gwg in OT. Sabres with another nice win in STL. They really may just have the staying power with the top notch talent they have in Dahlin, Thompson and Tuck. ESPN mentioned they just may be in on Kane too if they think they have a shot at the playoffs.

guy so that would be a cool story IMO.

but definitely did not expect to see Chabot or Power this high. Or Orlov (he's not bereft of offense I just think of him as more defense).

He covered the Devil's for years for the Athletic as well. He's gonna write articles for all of the teams where Timo Meier fits and come up with trade scenarios. He's an excellent writer and has intimate knowledge of both the Devs and Sharks organizations so he started there today. The article is behind the Athletic's paywall but if you have it it's a good read. I'm interested to hear Jay's opinion. I'd obviously love Meier and frankly none of the scenarios he mentions were an overpay for me. Basically I can summarize his scenarios -
1. Dawson Mercer, 2023 or 24 top 2 protected #1 and a middling prospect
2. Holtz, same picks plus another top prospect like Shak Makhamadullin
He feels the Devs would say no to #2 but they could tweak the 2nd guy into a Kevin Bahl type.

My opinion is Mercer would be a big gulp for me but I'd probably do it. I'd be more into #2 and I'd even do Shak with Holtz. With Nemec, Hughes and Seamus Casey. Bahl profiles as a decent bottom pairing/7th Dman. I don't think the Devs would be inclined to do Mercer in the deal.
He also mentioned maybe including one of the young goalies like Dawes or Schmid as the 2nd prospect.
I think Meier is just the type of power fwd the Devs need. They have to upgrade their top 6. Much of the year Tatar and Haula have been next to Jack. That's a criminal waste of his talent. I know we have to pay Bratt, but otherwise most of the core is taken care of for the next 3 seasons or so. Meier is the perfect fit. Bratt makes 5.5 mill now any way so it's not like his raise will be crippling. Meier has that poison pill 10 mill quali offer due but if the Devs are going to give up a ton they'd probably work something long term out.
Link - ( New Window )

Masisak correctly pointed out they could get teams like SJ to port half the hit and they have guys like Andreas Johnnson and even Tatar that they could move back in the deal that are impending UFA to free up the room.

I am a big Meier fan but I am torn about what I would give up for him. I would prefer to give up Holtz, Mukhamadullin, Wood (to create cap room for Meier), Bahl/Walsh, and a 2nd. Hughes and Nemec are untouchable obviously but I know SJ will ask for either at first.

Also I don't want to trade Seamus Casey or Gritsyuk.

This site breaks down how the Devils can afford both Meier and Bratt extensions if they have an AAV of $8.5 million. The problem for me though is that the Devils will have an issue when the ELC's for Mercer, Hughes, and Nemec expire. If they aren't willing to sign a bridge deal then things can get tricky.

forgot link
Link - ( New Window )

As good as Meier is nobody will give up a top 3 pick for him plus other pieces. I mean if it was Nemec for him straight up I'd consider it. outside of those 2, Jack and Nico I'd consider most anyone in a package. I really like Mercer and the overall game he brings with the way he also fits the speed system we have but I agree you have to give to get. Either way we need to have a legit NHL top 6 fwd to put next to Jack. It's criminal the garbage they've put next to him all season. I know there's a good chance they'll have to let both Severson and Graves walk this summer but I'll tell you I would be fine re-signing Severson. The guy is underrated. yeah he has the ocassional mind boggling breakdown, but otherwise he's a real solid 2 way dman and maybe the best stretch passer in the league and thats such a big part of our attack.

In comment 16015718 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

This site breaks down how the Devils can afford both Meier and Bratt extensions if they have an AAV of $8.5 million. The problem for me though is that the Devils will have an issue when the ELC's for Mercer, Hughes, and Nemec expire. If they aren't willing to sign a bridge deal then things can get tricky.

Yeah but thats 3 years down the road. We can worry about that when we get there. What I like is with Vanacek and Shmid or Dawes we have the potential of very affordable solid goaltending for the foreseeable future. Who knows we may have only one year left with Bratt any ways.

Dach beat the snot out of Andrew Copp last night. Not a heavyweight bout, but I was surprised I hadn't seen Dach snap yet.

I like his game, I hope he sticks with the Habs.

He's healthy and found a role - and can play W or C.

trade talk I think will heat up during the AS break.

from hockeyfights.com

Dach pummels Copp.

lol, one person voted Copp the winner and another called it a draw. The other 43 voters got it right.
link - ( New Window )

lose Matthews for 3 weeks. Huge.

Wonder if this effects their trade strategy. and they don't have much cap space ($1.1M).

I think the bye week/AS game will shed some light on things.

trade deadline is not until March 3, but it gets here before you know it.

In comment 16015731 Stu11 said:

Quote:

Yeah but thats 3 years down the road. We can worry about that when we get there. What I like is with Vanacek and Shmid or Dawes we have the potential of very affordable solid goaltending for the foreseeable future. Who knows we may have only one year left with Bratt any ways.

The Devils need to make a decision with Bratt before the start of next season. If he refuses to sign an extension then the Devils would be wise to move him this offseason to get a fair return rather than lose him via free agency. If the Devils already know that he won't re-sign with them then he should be offered for Meier.

did not comment on Provorov, but I will mention his jersey sold out within a day of the "incident" without any other commentary.

In comment 16016155 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

did not comment on Provorov, but I will mention his jersey sold out within a day of the "incident" without any other commentary.

Yeah I'll keep my thoughts to myself on that one.

In comment 16016111 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 16015731 Stu11 said: Quote: Yeah but thats 3 years down the road. We can worry about that when we get there. What I like is with Vanacek and Shmid or Dawes we have the potential of very affordable solid goaltending for the foreseeable future. Who knows we may have only one year left with Bratt any ways. The Devils need to make a decision with Bratt before the start of next season. If he refuses to sign an extension then the Devils would be wise to move him this offseason to get a fair return rather than lose him via free agency. If the Devils already know that he won't re-sign with them then he should be offered for Meier.

Yeah I agree. They'll probably not let that one leak into next season. It's really strange. Basically every other young player on the team has had a seamless negotiation on an extension but it's really been tough with Bratt. I do think the Devs will make multiple moves at the deadline. They're gonna try real hard to get a top 6 fwd and I bet they try and add to the bottom 6 as well.

In comment 16016370 Stu11 said:

Quote:

Yeah I agree. They'll probably not let that one leak into next season. It's really strange. Basically every other young player on the team has had a seamless negotiation on an extension but it's really been tough with Bratt. I do think the Devs will make multiple moves at the deadline. They're gonna try real hard to get a top 6 fwd and I bet they try and add to the bottom 6 as well.

As you know I was hard on Fitzgerald last offseason because of his decision to bring back Ruff and for not signing Bratt to a long term deal.

I now have a bad feeling that Bratt wants to test free agency.

If that's true then I hope the Devils can work out a trade for a top 6 forward like Meier.

generational talent fans expect every #1 overall pick to be.

Whatever franchise gets him immediately is a lot farther in their rebuild than before (captain obvious?)

NHL Watcher
@NHL_Watcher
·
4h
Connor Bedard is on a personal 32 game points streak, has been held pointless in just 1 game this season, that was the first game of the season. @WHLPats

In comment 16016616 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 16016370 Stu11 said: Quote: Yeah I agree. They'll probably not let that one leak into next season. It's really strange. Basically every other young player on the team has had a seamless negotiation on an extension but it's really been tough with Bratt. I do think the Devs will make multiple moves at the deadline. They're gonna try real hard to get a top 6 fwd and I bet they try and add to the bottom 6 as well. As you know I was hard on Fitzgerald last offseason because of his decision to bring back Ruff and for not signing Bratt to a long term deal. I now have a bad feeling that Bratt wants to test free agency. If that's true then I hope the Devils can work out a trade for a top 6 forward like Meier.

Well when Fitz is able to lock up every other core guy in including Jack to solid deals you can't blame him on Bratt. I think it's the other side here. I think Bratt's camp thinks his best play is ahead and they've been scared of signing a Jack type deal that looks worse the better he plays. I think they feel as is always the case their best path to getting the most $ is UFA. That's fine and it's more than his prerogative, but as Johnny Hockey found out that big pay day can easily end up in a wasteland like Columbus. Bratt or no Bratt I think Fitz is hunting for a top 6 fwd at the deadline. He was surprisingly candid about it this week. They want a guy like Meier who is not just a rental. He was clear that they have assets they're willing to move. Honestly if they go thr rental route Horvat is an interesting fit. Yes he's a C and they're deep there, but they have mainly been playing Haula much of the season with Jack because he's solid at faceoffs and Jack is not. Horvat is great at FO's so he'd fit next to Jack in that roll.

with a 4 goal game last night against Penn State. Michigan trailed 3-0 but with Hughes heroics they won 5-4. Man I can't wait until their season ends so he finishes the year in NJ.

is loaded (as usual lately).

Besides Hughes they have

Adam Fantilli (2023 draft)
Gavin Brindley (2023 draft)
Rutger McGroarty (2022 1st round pick - WIN)
Dylan Duke (2021 4th round pick - TBL)
Seamus Casey (2022 2nd round pick - NJD)
Frankie Nazar (2022 1st round pick - CHI)
Mackie Samoskevich (2021 1st round pick - FLA)

Hughes obviously 2021 #4 overall

and more like Jacob Truscott (2020 5th round pick - VAN) or Eric Portillo (I think he's still there - 2019 3rd - BUF)

And that doesn't even consider players like Owen Power, Matty Beniers, Kent Johnson, Thomas Bordeleau, Brendan Brisson, etc. who turned pro but could still be playing.

Quinnipiac, by comparison, has 3 player drafted - all in the 6th or 7th round.

They have been absolutely loaded over the past two years but they still failed to win a National Championship last year and they were just the 7th ranked team in the nation going into last nights game.

Last year I was rooting for Michigan to win it all. Selfishly I am rooting for their season to end as soon as possible so that Luke can join NJ.

week/AS break and trade discussion should heat up. Deadline is March 3.

Standings at this time:

Metro (GP, PTS, ROW):
CAR 48 70 28
NJD 49 68 31
NYR 49 62 25

Atlantic (GP, PTS, ROW)
BOS 49 81 36
TOR 50 68 30
TBL 48 65 31

East Wild card (GP, PTS, ROW)
WAS 51 58 25
PIT 49 57 23
BUF 49 56 25
NYI 52 55 25
FLA 52 54 23

Central (GP, PTS, ROW)
DAL 51 66 27
WIN 51 63 31
MIN 48 58 23

Pacific (GP, PTS, ROW)
SEA 49 63 29
LVG 51 62 26
LAK 52 62 24

West Wild Card (GP, PTS, ROW)
EDM 50 60 28
COL 48 57 23
CAL 50 57 23
NSH 48 54 23

Most teams beyond there are a severe longshot.

My prediction, the only change is FLA or BUF knock out WAS from the playoffs - all the other teams currently in playoff position stay that way.

In comment 16017286 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

They have been absolutely loaded over the past two years but they still failed to win a National Championship last year and they were just the 7th ranked team in the nation going into last nights game. Last year I was rooting for Michigan to win it all. Selfishly I am rooting for their season to end as soon as possible so that Luke can join NJ.

Yeah, they beat Quinnipiac last year (Rand Pecknold pulled the goalie with like 6 minutes left in the 3rd), but that Denver Michigan game to eliminate Michigan (in OT) was awesome.

I love the frozen four, but there is a lot of luck with winning that tournament - most of these teams can beat each other with some breaks. Such a hard tournament to win.

In the NHL. You need to get out of the gate in playoff position or close to it. I agree on Washington being in the shakiest position. Pittsburgh has been un-inspiring lately, but you have to figure with their vet talent and Sullivan behind the bench they'll make it. Buffalo has been hot and you have to figure the Isles who have been so bad lately but hanging around can maybe get hot and make it interesting. Florida has played better as of late too. The one x factor with Pitt is Jarry. If he can't get healthy they may have to go looking for a goalie. DeSmith is not that good.
The Pacific division is a dog fight. One bad week and you can go from 1st or 2nd to fighting for your playoff life.

In comment 16018496 Stu11 said:

Quote:

In the NHL. You need to get out of the gate in playoff position or close to it. I agree on Washington being in the shakiest position. Pittsburgh has been un-inspiring lately, but you have to figure with their vet talent and Sullivan behind the bench they'll make it. Buffalo has been hot and you have to figure the Isles who have been so bad lately but hanging around can maybe get hot and make it interesting. Florida has played better as of late too. The one x factor with Pitt is Jarry. If he can't get healthy they may have to go looking for a goalie. DeSmith is not that good. The Pacific division is a dog fight. One bad week and you can go from 1st or 2nd to fighting for your playoff life.

I think Jarry is back after the break.

The x-factor with WAS is if they get healthy - they played so long without Backstrom and Wilson - and even Oshie, but I think FLA is just too good to keep losing - and that game yesterday vs BOS was awesome (though I was conflicted because I want FLA to lose b/c MTL has their 1st round pick unprotected this year but I can't root for BOS under any circumstances) FLA tied it up with 10 seconds left and won in OT.

Bruins losing again today. they lost 2 (?) in a row for the first time all season maybe or at least in a long time.

In comment 16018513 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 16018496 Stu11 said: Quote: In the NHL. You need to get out of the gate in playoff position or close to it. I agree on Washington being in the shakiest position. Pittsburgh has been un-inspiring lately, but you have to figure with their vet talent and Sullivan behind the bench they'll make it. Buffalo has been hot and you have to figure the Isles who have been so bad lately but hanging around can maybe get hot and make it interesting. Florida has played better as of late too. The one x factor with Pitt is Jarry. If he can't get healthy they may have to go looking for a goalie. DeSmith is not that good. The Pacific division is a dog fight. One bad week and you can go from 1st or 2nd to fighting for your playoff life. I think Jarry is back after the break. The x-factor with WAS is if they get healthy - they played so long without Backstrom and Wilson - and even Oshie, but I think FLA is just too good to keep losing - and that game yesterday vs BOS was awesome (though I was conflicted because I want FLA to lose b/c MTL has their 1st round pick unprotected this year but I can't root for BOS under any circumstances) FLA tied it up with 10 seconds left and won in OT. Bruins losing again today. they lost 2 (?) in a row for the first time all season maybe or at least in a long time.

That is 2 in a row for the B's......tough stretch to end the break and they were due to go thru a lull.

BTW, FL tied it with ONE second left yesterday.

In comment 16018590 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 16018513 pjcas18 said: Quote: In comment 16018496 Stu11 said: Quote: In the NHL. You need to get out of the gate in playoff position or close to it. I agree on Washington being in the shakiest position. Pittsburgh has been un-inspiring lately, but you have to figure with their vet talent and Sullivan behind the bench they'll make it. Buffalo has been hot and you have to figure the Isles who have been so bad lately but hanging around can maybe get hot and make it interesting. Florida has played better as of late too. The one x factor with Pitt is Jarry. If he can't get healthy they may have to go looking for a goalie. DeSmith is not that good. The Pacific division is a dog fight. One bad week and you can go from 1st or 2nd to fighting for your playoff life. I think Jarry is back after the break. The x-factor with WAS is if they get healthy - they played so long without Backstrom and Wilson - and even Oshie, but I think FLA is just too good to keep losing - and that game yesterday vs BOS was awesome (though I was conflicted because I want FLA to lose b/c MTL has their 1st round pick unprotected this year but I can't root for BOS under any circumstances) FLA tied it up with 10 seconds left and won in OT. Bruins losing again today. they lost 2 (?) in a row for the first time all season maybe or at least in a long time. That is 2 in a row for the B's......tough stretch to end the break and they were due to go thru a lull. BTW, FL tied it with ONE second left yesterday.

yeah, lol, it was awesome (no offense). My wife and kids are Bruins fans and had the game on last night while I was watching Habs Sens. I was only half paying attention to the Bruins but that was a disaster.

had Owen Beck make his debut 2- games ago as an emergency call up.

I was a little surprised it was him, at just 18 years old, I felt like someone from Laval (AHL) was probably a better choice, but he will be a good player IMO.

MTL has had 10 players under 24 play for them this year - not including Cayden Primeau (goalie). 8 of them under 23.

/Cam Robinson/
@Hockey_Robinson
·
19h
Connor Bedard has 40 goals and 83 points in his last 27 hockey games.

• 1.48 goals per game
• 3.07 points per game
• 6.85 shots per game

New York Islanders
@NYIslanders
#Isles News: The New York Islanders have acquired Bo Horvat from the Vancouver Canucks, in exchange for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a conditional first round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft.

In comment 16020250 Anakim said:

Quote:

New York Islanders @NYIslanders #Isles News: The New York Islanders have acquired Bo Horvat from the Vancouver Canucks, in exchange for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a conditional first round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft.

Great get for the Islanders. They needed to add scoring and they added one of the best available players on the market. Now they just need to get him signed long term.

In comment 16020251 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 16020250 Anakim said: Quote: New York Islanders @NYIslanders #Isles News: The New York Islanders have acquired Bo Horvat from the Vancouver Canucks, in exchange for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a conditional first round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft. Great get for the Islanders. They needed to add scoring and they added one of the best available players on the market. Now they just need to get him signed long term.

good player but at this rate the isles will have no good prospects because lou just traded his top prospect AND a 1st in a supposed deep draft

In comment 16020250 Anakim said:

Quote:

New York Islanders @NYIslanders #Isles News: The New York Islanders have acquired Bo Horvat from the Vancouver Canucks, in exchange for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a conditional first round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft.

Great trade for NYI IMO. Beauvillier never developed and Raty is a good prospect, but not ready to contribute (and he may bust).

1st round pick is protected.

NYI has a road to travel to make it, but if Sorokin plays well and they can add some scoring they have a shot. WAS is vulnerable IMO and PIT is to an extent.

I heard it was Top 12 protected

In comment 16020251 Jay on the Island said:

Quote:

In comment 16020250 Anakim said: Quote: New York Islanders @NYIslanders #Isles News: The New York Islanders have acquired Bo Horvat from the Vancouver Canucks, in exchange for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty and a conditional first round selection in the 2023 NHL Draft. Great get for the Islanders. They needed to add scoring and they added one of the best available players on the market. Now they just need to get him signed long term.

Yep definitely great move for the Isles. He's in the midst of a career year but he's a legit scorer. Don't know much about Raty, but the price doesn't seem exorbitant even for a rental. Especially the teams on the border of the playoffs are definitely not giving away unconditional #1's for this year with Bedard hanging out there.

now im crossing my fingers barry trotz has always wanted to coach bo horvat.

even if not, not much downside if they can get him extended. pick shouldn't be a lotto pick, Raty's best case is that he's horvat and that's unlikely, and beau was more about saving money at this point than anything else.

wow. was not expecting that to be the breaking isles news over the break.

Lou is going to hand out a monster extension to a player off a career year he will never replicate.

This group hit it's head on their ceiling like Goose hit the cockpit in Top Gun. Thanks for the conf runs but it's over. The majority of the lineup is in decline phase.

- They're getting Vezina goaltending and they can't even hold a wild card spot.

-The defense is a dumpster fire that can't break the puck out. This system can't work with this roster. There's a good reason the Hall of Fame coach played tight low event hockey, it was the only way to compete with this group.

I don't hate losing Beau or Raty. Raty has skills and the puck finds him, but he can't skate and unless it improves he can't play top 6.

In comment 16020294 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

Lou is going to hand out a monster extension to a player off a career year he will never replicate. This group hit it's head on their ceiling like Goose hit the cockpit in Top Gun. Thanks for the conf runs but it's over. The majority of the lineup is in decline phase. - They're getting Vezina goaltending and they can't even hold a wild card spot. -The defense is a dumpster fire that can't break the puck out. This system can't work with this roster. There's a good reason the Hall of Fame coach played tight low event hockey, it was the only way to compete with this group. I don't hate losing Beau or Raty. Raty has skills and the puck finds him, but he can't skate and unless it improves he can't play top 6.

they need to go back playing tight low event hockey. they have a proven top pair and vez goalie, if they commit to playing defense maybe horvat gives them enough offense to get over the hump?

In comment 16020297 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16020294 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: Lou is going to hand out a monster extension to a player off a career year he will never replicate. This group hit it's head on their ceiling like Goose hit the cockpit in Top Gun. Thanks for the conf runs but it's over. The majority of the lineup is in decline phase. - They're getting Vezina goaltending and they can't even hold a wild card spot. -The defense is a dumpster fire that can't break the puck out. This system can't work with this roster. There's a good reason the Hall of Fame coach played tight low event hockey, it was the only way to compete with this group. I don't hate losing Beau or Raty. Raty has skills and the puck finds him, but he can't skate and unless it improves he can't play top 6. they need to go back playing tight low event hockey. they have a proven top pair and vez goalie, if they commit to playing defense maybe horvat gives them enough offense to get over the hump?

I can't see it. There are too many problems to be solved by one deal for a center on a lucky shooting % streak. Peterson isn't hear to feed him dimes on the PP

-

top line center can actually change the outlook for a team.

Horvat is a beast on the dots, he's gritty, and he's scoring at a high rate (this year).

It changes everyone's role.

Even if his scoring regresses to his career norms I love the trade.

I like Horvat's game. He's a reliable 55-point player with upside. plays a 2-way game and can be on all specials units. He has 3 freaking SH goals this year.

You can say its shuffling deck chairs, but it's a huge talent upgrade especially if is extended.

No one ever accused an NHL team of having too many centers.

In comment 16020334 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

No one ever accused an NHL team of having too many centers.

I completely agree with you here, I'm always in favor of stacking centermen. To that point, one of the ways this could work is Lambert using the Nelson/Lee/Barzal line. It has been dominant in short stretches.

have a lot of issues, one of them is their league worst power play.

I watch every single habs game and I would estimate 95% of all power plays start with a lost face off and clear down the ice.

it shaves easily 20 seconds off the PP. Suzuki is one of my favorite young players, but he struggles with face offs like a lot of younger players. And I believe he will improve.

but that has such an effect because if you struggle with zone entries (like the habs also do, lol) you wind up with basically a fraction of the zone time on the PP, and as we all know today's power play is all about getting the goalie moving side to side and one-timing the shot.

it is so frustrating. I don't know if the Islanders have this issue, but if they do, Horvat can help - worst case having two players on the ice who can take a face off is such a smart strategy on the PP. left and right as well as guys getting tossed from the circle.

In comment 16020307 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020297 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16020294 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: Lou is going to hand out a monster extension to a player off a career year he will never replicate. This group hit it's head on their ceiling like Goose hit the cockpit in Top Gun. Thanks for the conf runs but it's over. The majority of the lineup is in decline phase. - They're getting Vezina goaltending and they can't even hold a wild card spot. -The defense is a dumpster fire that can't break the puck out. This system can't work with this roster. There's a good reason the Hall of Fame coach played tight low event hockey, it was the only way to compete with this group. I don't hate losing Beau or Raty. Raty has skills and the puck finds him, but he can't skate and unless it improves he can't play top 6. they need to go back playing tight low event hockey. they have a proven top pair and vez goalie, if they commit to playing defense maybe horvat gives them enough offense to get over the hump? I can't see it. There are too many problems to be solved by one deal for a center on a lucky shooting % streak. Peterson isn't hear to feed him dimes on the PP

there were many many more problems 4.5 years ago when they went to low event hockey in the first place. they've had more breakdowns this year than the 4.5 combined and they are still just barely + in goal differential. Lane was Trotz' assistant for 14 years and yet for some reason he seems unable to come close to replicating the structure of trotz system.

last year and is besting it this year. and he is coming into his prime years. Theres no reason to think it doesnt continue

In comment 16020416 KDubbs said:

Quote:

last year and is besting it this year. and he is coming into his prime years. Theres no reason to think it doesnt continue

he's very similar to (but better than) nelson. they have the exact same career shooting % at 14%, and their best year's were also almost exactly the same at 21.6% (nelson last year, horvat this year). he's going to get paid but they are going to have 4 really solid centers locked in.

In comment 16020416 KDubbs said:

Quote:

last year and is besting it this year. and he is coming into his prime years. Theres no reason to think it doesnt continue

Yeah I'm sure he'll continue to shoot at a 22% clip. Seems totally sustainable.

In comment 16020423 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020416 KDubbs said: Quote: last year and is besting it this year. and he is coming into his prime years. Theres no reason to think it doesnt continue Yeah I'm sure he'll continue to shoot at a 22% clip. Seems totally sustainable.

he scored 31 last year shooting much closer to his career rate.

brock nelson shot 22% last year and even though he's almost half that (and under his career average) this year he's still a good player no?

In comment 16020434 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16020423 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: In comment 16020416 KDubbs said: Quote: last year and is besting it this year. and he is coming into his prime years. Theres no reason to think it doesnt continue Yeah I'm sure he'll continue to shoot at a 22% clip. Seems totally sustainable. he scored 31 last year shooting much closer to his career rate. brock nelson shot 22% last year and even though he's almost half that (and under his career average) this year he's still a good player no?

The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down.

In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down.

the age of the roster is mostly on the bottom.

barzal (25), pelech (28), pulock (28), sorokin (27), dobson (23) is the median core and horvat (27) joins that. i think dobson is the only 1 of those 6 who hasn't made an asg.

pageau (30), mayfield (30), nelson (31), lee (32), palmieri (31) are aging but not ancient (and they've mostly produced this year).

that's the core of the top 9/top 4 and most of the players who logged the biggest minutes vs tb in the b2b ecf (and beat wsh, pitt, bos).

the biggest missing piece is behind the bench right now. with sorokin they should be leaning into the low event style. way too many careless breakdowns reminiscent of the doug weight days.

In comment 16020463 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down. the age of the roster is mostly on the bottom. barzal (25), pelech (28), pulock (28), sorokin (27), dobson (23) is the median core and horvat (27) joins that. i think dobson is the only 1 of those 6 who hasn't made an asg. pageau (30), mayfield (30), nelson (31), lee (32), palmieri (31) are aging but not ancient (and they've mostly produced this year). that's the core of the top 9/top 4 and most of the players who logged the biggest minutes vs tb in the b2b ecf (and beat wsh, pitt, bos). the biggest missing piece is behind the bench right now. with sorokin they should be leaning into the low event style. way too many careless breakdowns reminiscent of the doug weight days.

No offense but I don't know what you watch when you make these analyses.

Everybody in your second group is in decline save Brock. Lee is not the same post acl. Still good net front, lost a lot of skating and positional strength.
Pageau suffered nerve damage with that wrist injury against Boston in the playoffs. He can't break glass with his shot now.
Palmieri is nicked and missing chunks of games for two years.
Mayfield is about to enter pylon phase.

What is the plan here? Squeak in and hope Sorokin upsets the B's or Canes? Lol

In comment 16020348 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

have a lot of issues, one of them is their league worst power play. I watch every single habs game and I would estimate 95% of all power plays start with a lost face off and clear down the ice. it shaves easily 20 seconds off the PP. Suzuki is one of my favorite young players, but he struggles with face offs

As I said earlier in the thread the Devils have played half the season with Eric Haula a guy who could shoot a puck from the edge of the boat and miss the ocean because he's good on faceoffs and Jack as the C on the line isn't. Faceoffs are huge and as you said Horvat is real good at them. Is he a 50 goal scorer like this year? No. However he scored 31 last year and the going rate for a very good 2 way 30 goal guy who does the little things. Yes petterson is a stud playmaker but last time I checked Barzal is a 50 assist guy in his own right.
Interesting All Star question. Horvat is a Pacific div all star. Is he still gonna play with them or will they replace his spot?

I think he may drop out so he can move, but if he doesn't he probably still plays for the west.

but I do think he drops out if I had to guess.

In comment 16020468 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020463 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down. the age of the roster is mostly on the bottom. barzal (25), pelech (28), pulock (28), sorokin (27), dobson (23) is the median core and horvat (27) joins that. i think dobson is the only 1 of those 6 who hasn't made an asg. pageau (30), mayfield (30), nelson (31), lee (32), palmieri (31) are aging but not ancient (and they've mostly produced this year). that's the core of the top 9/top 4 and most of the players who logged the biggest minutes vs tb in the b2b ecf (and beat wsh, pitt, bos). the biggest missing piece is behind the bench right now. with sorokin they should be leaning into the low event style. way too many careless breakdowns reminiscent of the doug weight days. No offense but I don't know what you watch when you make these analyses. Everybody in your second group is in decline save Brock. Lee is not the same post acl. Still good net front, lost a lot of skating and positional strength. Pageau suffered nerve damage with that wrist injury against Boston in the playoffs. He can't break glass with his shot now. Palmieri is nicked and missing chunks of games for two years. Mayfield is about to enter pylon phase. What is the plan here? Squeak in and hope Sorokin upsets the B's or Canes? Lol

What move would you prefer/would you have preferred Lou made?

should go all in at this point.

They have the core in place to make a run. and by going all in I mean adding Karlsson or Kane for example.

Sorokin has been Vezina level good.

Just right the ship around him and they can gain some momentum.

In comment 16020577 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

should go all in at this point. They have the core in place to make a run.

They absolutely do not. The two conference finals runs were fantastic, I thoroughly enjoyed this group, but it's over.

Every skater not named Nelson or Dobson is a worse player today than they were two seasons ago. Lee, Pageau, Palmieri, and Bailey have all suffered career altering injuries and will not be what they were.

Trotz is gone.

Toews and Leddy were top 15 every year in zone exits/entries with possession. Nobody on the roster is replicating that, it's been one of the biggest issues the last two years.

This strategy is just hopium that a bunch of dead wood is going to turn back the clock and Sorokin goes Roy '86 or Hasek' 99.

In comment 16020468 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020463 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down. the age of the roster is mostly on the bottom. barzal (25), pelech (28), pulock (28), sorokin (27), dobson (23) is the median core and horvat (27) joins that. i think dobson is the only 1 of those 6 who hasn't made an asg. pageau (30), mayfield (30), nelson (31), lee (32), palmieri (31) are aging but not ancient (and they've mostly produced this year). that's the core of the top 9/top 4 and most of the players who logged the biggest minutes vs tb in the b2b ecf (and beat wsh, pitt, bos). the biggest missing piece is behind the bench right now. with sorokin they should be leaning into the low event style. way too many careless breakdowns reminiscent of the doug weight days. No offense but I don't know what you watch when you make these analyses. Everybody in your second group is in decline save Brock. Lee is not the same post acl. Still good net front, lost a lot of skating and positional strength. Pageau suffered nerve damage with that wrist injury against Boston in the playoffs. He can't break glass with his shot now. Palmieri is nicked and missing chunks of games for two years. Mayfield is about to enter pylon phase. What is the plan here? Squeak in and hope Sorokin upsets the B's or Canes? Lol

"in decline" ≠ not productive.

Is Nelson on pace for a career year follow-up to his career year last year (despite not maintaining his 21% shooting%)?

are both he and lee on pace for 30 goals?

is JGP on pace for his best year as an islander?

the devils are the only team in the metro who don't rely on some players over 30. panarin/kreider are 31, zibanajed/trocheck turn 30 this year. the caps/pens basically have nobody under 30.

In comment 16020577 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

should go all in at this point. They have the core in place to make a run. and by going all in I mean adding Karlsson or Kane for example. Sorokin has been Vezina level good. Just right the ship around him and they can gain some momentum.

totally agree the big question is do they have a coach who can minimally pass a competence test?

their breakdown in structure this year has been doug weight-esque and would look unspeakably bad if sorokin wasnt sorokin. they've sold out for offense and even doing so the offense has regressed (especially the PP). they have been getting worse over the year not better.

in some ways they are like the 2021 mets in august with rojas. the pieces are there so they have enough to go all in if they want to do so. except they stupidly fired their buck and replaced him with rojas instead of the other way around and you can just tell something is off with the way they cant hold leads and show up flat way too often.

for the life of me i will never understand how mr trap lou lamoriello chose to give up a HOF defense first coach for an unknown rookie coach to add more offense instead of just signing someone like gaudreau.

In comment 16020733 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16020468 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: In comment 16020463 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down. the age of the roster is mostly on the bottom. barzal (25), pelech (28), pulock (28), sorokin (27), dobson (23) is the median core and horvat (27) joins that. i think dobson is the only 1 of those 6 who hasn't made an asg. pageau (30), mayfield (30), nelson (31), lee (32), palmieri (31) are aging but not ancient (and they've mostly produced this year). that's the core of the top 9/top 4 and most of the players who logged the biggest minutes vs tb in the b2b ecf (and beat wsh, pitt, bos). the biggest missing piece is behind the bench right now. with sorokin they should be leaning into the low event style. way too many careless breakdowns reminiscent of the doug weight days. No offense but I don't know what you watch when you make these analyses. Everybody in your second group is in decline save Brock. Lee is not the same post acl. Still good net front, lost a lot of skating and positional strength. Pageau suffered nerve damage with that wrist injury against Boston in the playoffs. He can't break glass with his shot now. Palmieri is nicked and missing chunks of games for two years. Mayfield is about to enter pylon phase. What is the plan here? Squeak in and hope Sorokin upsets the B's or Canes? Lol "in decline" ≠ not productive. Is Nelson on pace for a career year follow-up to his career year last year (despite not maintaining his 21% shooting%)? are both he and lee on pace for 30 goals? is JGP on pace for his best year as an islander? the devils are the only team in the metro who don't rely on some players over 30. panarin/kreider are 31, zibanajed/trocheck turn 30 this year. the caps/pens basically have nobody under 30.

You keep listing ages like a number matters more than their physical condition.

Their injuries have made them lesser players and its not going to get better. Do you watch games? This is one of the slowest teams in the league and they just got slower.

In comment 16020729 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020577 pjcas18 said: Quote: should go all in at this point. They have the core in place to make a run. They absolutely do not. The two conference finals runs were fantastic, I thoroughly enjoyed this group, but it's over. Every skater not named Nelson or Dobson is a worse player today than they were two seasons ago. Lee, Pageau, Palmieri, and Bailey have all suffered career altering injuries and will not be what they were. Trotz is gone. Toews and Leddy were top 15 every year in zone exits/entries with possession. Nobody on the roster is replicating that, it's been one of the biggest issues the last two years. This strategy is just hopium that a bunch of dead wood is going to turn back the clock and Sorokin goes Roy '86 or Hasek' 99.

I mean a Vezina caliber goalie and strength up the middle. If you get good specials play you can win in the playoffs. Goalies cover a lot of warts

Obviously extenuating circumstances but the habs rode Price, Danault, and timely scoring to the SCF. Hard to rebuild while moving so may as well go for it even if a long shot

In comment 16020739 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

You keep listing ages like a number matters more than their physical condition. Their injuries have made them lesser players and its not going to get better. Do you watch games? This is one of the slowest teams in the league and they just got slower.

right back at ya with the 'do you watch the games'. and to be more specific, "did you watch the games" over the last 4 years when they went from an all time bad defensive team to one of the best in hockey and right back again with basically all the same players?

did beau suck this year because his legs slowed down at...25?

it's amazing nelson is on pace for his best year ever on slow legs. that's quite an accomplishment.

sorry but from my pov the team has looked like crap because they have no structure. they are trying to play a free wheeling up and down style that doesn't fit the personnel they have and when they make mistakes they give up odd man rushes or get pinned in their own zone chasing. some periods they look great but more often they are on their heels while sorokin gets pelted. they have no showed against teams who they are clearly more talented than (AZ, SEA, OTT).

how often did that happen when trotz was here? do you think the reason that wasnt happening more often because of uber speedsters like komorov, flippula, brassard, eberle, andy greene?

In comment 16020768 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 16020739 Diversify yo bonds said: Quote: You keep listing ages like a number matters more than their physical condition. Their injuries have made them lesser players and its not going to get better. Do you watch games? This is one of the slowest teams in the league and they just got slower. right back at ya with the 'do you watch the games' how often did that happen when trotz was here? do you think the reason that wasnt happening more often because of uber speedsters like komorov, flippula, brassard, eberle, andy greene?

You won't find a bigger Trotz fan than me. He's the best thing that happened to the team in decades.
He's not coming back. Lambert isn't going anywhere. I don't know what your argument is.

My argument is that this roster is irreparably damaged. The path would be to retool around Sorokin, Barzal, and Dobson.

Taking this tack only serves to deepen the coming abyss

In comment 16020789 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

You won't find a bigger Trotz fan than me. He's the best thing that happened to the team in decades. He's not coming back. Lambert isn't going anywhere. I don't know what your argument is. My argument is that this roster is irreparably damaged. The path would be to retool around Sorokin, Barzal, and Dobson. Taking this tack only serves to deepen the coming abyss

my argument is the coach has been a huge downgrade, bordering on incompetent, and incompetent coaches get fired all the time. I think most assume Lane has already been on the hot seat and if the team continues to underperform its only going to get hotter. i dont buy baghdad botta's report that there's a chance trotz comes back even though i've been hoping for that possibility since the day they fired him. if i owned the team id give him a blank check.

as far as the roster being "irreparably damaged" i think that's moronic. the majority of their cap is tied up in the under 30 players i mentioned. 9m barzal, 5.7m pelech, 6.1m pulock, 9m on goalies (which is currently split 5m/4m but soon to be all for sorokin), dobson 4m, and seemingly soon to be another 8-9m on horvat with the space they now have. that's more than half of the cap with the players i (and i think just about anyone who watches hockey) would consider to be quality core players.

after the vegas game. varlamov was the only reason they got 1 point out of it and barzal's fluky shot in OT got them the 2nd.

they got outshot by like 15 in the 3rd period. they gave up 5 high danger chances in that period and had 0 for themselves.

i think he saved his job sneaking into the break winning that back to back and if it were up to me i probably would have fired him over the break.

i obviously dont know what vancouvers timing was on the trade and if it was now or never im not sure how that would have impacted my decision to fire him. maybe id have held off for a week to give him 1 last chance (and to take 1 last run at trotz when he gets back from his eurotrip).

In comment 16020810 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

as far as the roster being "irreparably damaged" i think that's moronic. the majority of their cap is tied up in the under 30 players i mentioned. 9m barzal, 5.7m pelech, 6.1m pulock, 9m on goalies (which is currently split 5m/4m but soon to be all for sorokin), dobson 4m, and seemingly soon to be another 8-9m on horvat with the space they now have. that's more than half of the cap with the players i (and i think just about anyone who watches hockey) would consider to be quality core players.

Refer to my 10:28 yesterday. Take those players plus Bailey(shoulders) and the TB4LiH(everything) . This isn't opinion, they actually have sustained these injuries Do players with career altering injuries all of a sudden return to form? Or do you accept reality where they are in and out of the lineup in a diminished state until they hang it up?

Your quality core is essentially the same as mine, plus P and P. So we agree there. My point is extending their playoff window is dependent on changing out the dead wood surrounding them with younger, healthier players.

We agree on the coaching transition disaster. I just disagree that anything will change in that regard this season.

that's 7% of the cap in total, with 2% (clutter) of that likely destined for LTIR. like boychuk he has had enough surgeries he will end up there whenever he decides he's had enough. further they can waive any of the 3 and save $1m per player buried as TB4LIbridgeport to reclaim 3m of the 5.7m. they could do that today if they wanted to. so the cap impact of TB4LIH is about as close to 0 as you can get. if they sign horvat to an 8.5m deal they still have 7.7m free for FA this summer with 18/21 players signed (tb4lih included).

bailey sucks but like ladd was an inherited contract and there's just nothing you can do about it unless you want to give up a first round pick just to make him disappear. im sure they tried to pawn him off instead of beau and if there's another big trade in them they will probably try to do so again. getting another possible core player with Horvat was a better use of a first round pick than dumping bailey imo.

as far as nelson, lee, palmieri go every team has a few players in their 30's "in decline". ondrej palat is about to turn 32 for the devils and has 8 points in 17 games. he makes 6m. kreider and panarin are 31 and kreider's shooting% is down to 13% after putting up a 20% year last year. the pens and wash cores are basically entirely 35+ while also paying guys "in decline" like zucker, petry, oshie, orlov 5m+. no team's cap table is perfect.

None of this recognizes that the current team is at best a bubble team.

The organizational plan is goalie hopium.

Have a good day. Go isles.

In comment 16020881 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

None of this recognizes that the current team is at best a bubble team. The organizational plan is goalie hopium. Have a good day. Go isles.

legitimate contenders whose playoff records vs this team without horvat (and sorokin) were what over the prior 4 years? hopium or reality?

Trotz is gone.
Their puck moving D are gone.
The only wing who ever had chemistry with 13 is gone.
Half of their forwards are diminished.
None of this production has been replaced.

Enjoy the memories of the playoff runs, it's over.

Hopefully they sign Horvat and prune the roster properly this summer.

In comment 16020916 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

Trotz is gone. Their puck moving D are gone. The only wing who ever had chemistry with 13 is gone. Half of their forwards are diminished. None of this production has been replaced. Enjoy the memories of the playoff runs, it's over. Hopefully they sign Horvat and prune the roster properly this summer.

"their puck moving d are gone". loleddy? who scored half as much as dobson has the past couple years? Toews was traded before the 2020 season (second ECF run) and also never produced here what dobson has.

your entire argument is "diminished forwards" meanwhile they have more points this year than the seasons when they won those series. and they added sorokin.

trotz is the only meaningful loss on that list.

I don't mean to come off condescending but we don't look at the sport the same way. You're focused on production and scoring without accounting for the styles of play and how those teams generated offense.

This current iteration is not viable and Trotz isn't walking through the door. Hope to be wrong.

What's the downside of adding the talent? This is not basketball. Outside of Boston who in the East looks like a world beater? Carolina is a good team but the Rangers took them out last year in a game 7 where anything can happen. Hockey history is littered with teams who were looked at at this point in the season as barely playoff contenders and then got behind a hot goaltender, one hot line and the others filling roles and went to the finals. You have the elite goaltender. I don't care why you say about your defense, when your goalie's gaa is a bit above 2.30 with a save % in the .920's you're keeping the puck out of the net. You add some scoring and anything can happen. Yeah you want to stay out of the WC2 spot vs Boston, but Pittsburgh is well within reach. Out of the current WC teams and contenders- Wash, Pitt, Buff and Florida the Isles have the best goaltending. What's the other option? Tearing it down and rebuilding? Realize the Devils have made the playoffs once in the last 10 years and that's with winning the lottery twice. Rebuilding can take a long time in hockey. With the lottery being more like the NBA now and the NHL draft being the least predictable of all leagues, rebuilding can be real tough.

In comment 16020977 Stu11 said:

Quote:

What's the downside of adding the talent? This is not basketball. Outside of Boston who in the East looks like a world beater? Carolina is a good team but the Rangers took them out last year in a game 7 where anything can happen. Hockey history is littered with teams who were looked at at this point in the season as barely playoff contenders and then got behind a hot goaltender, one hot line and the others filling roles and went to the finals. You have the elite goaltender. I don't care why you say about your defense, when your goalie's gaa is a bit above 2.30 with a save % in the .920's you're keeping the puck out of the net. You add some scoring and anything can happen. Yeah you want to stay out of the WC2 spot vs Boston, but Pittsburgh is well within reach. Out of the current WC teams and contenders- Wash, Pitt, Buff and Florida the Isles have the best goaltending. What's the other option? Tearing it down and rebuilding? Realize the Devils have made the playoffs once in the last 10 years and that's with winning the lottery twice. Rebuilding can take a long time in hockey. With the lottery being more like the NBA now and the NHL draft being the least predictable of all leagues, rebuilding can be real tough.

Nothing wrong with acquiring Horvat. Nothing wrong with giving a Vezina contender a shot in short series.

The negative is the low percentage of success given their current play. This syle is unsustainable.

In the larger picture it increases the likelihood of a post Lou abyss. I'm completely with you Stu on the crap shoot of tank rebuilding. I've spent the majority of my fanhood that way.
That's why I would prefer a middle path re tool around the current core, surrendering assets if need be to move out the chaff and add a LD and two wings minimum. Then regroup with a better coach.

I thought you were in tear it down mode.

Would they potentially move Batherson? What would a price look like?

In comment 16020967 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

I don't mean to come off condescending but we don't look at the sport the same way. You're focused on production and scoring without accounting for the styles of play and how those teams generated offense. This current iteration is not viable and Trotz isn't walking through the door. Hope to be wrong.

the feeling is likewise as i similarly view you as a good poster, but also not to sound condescending there's simply nothing statistical to back up your observations that aside from the 6 player core we agree on there's a critical mass of forwards on the roster who are irredeemably "diminished".

here's how Dom Luszczyszyn's model (which has never been kind to the isles) values these guys as of the start of the break 2 days ago:







so you seem to misunderstand my point because i am almost entirely focused on style of play, i just have a hard time blaming the players since they don't make that choice management does. and they are individually producing in the style of play they are apparently being coached to play.

so imo the style they are trying to play is simply the wrong one. trotz' defensive style was the right one for a team whose strength is quality defense and goaltending, and it's even more true now with Sorokin. I agree Trotz is probably not coming through that door but there are other quality head coaches out there who won't be learning on the job like lane. his primary qualification was spending 14 years with trotz and yet his team has 0 resemblance to what made the trotz teams successful.

In comment 16020994 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

In comment 16020977 Stu11 said: Quote: What's the downside of adding the talent? This is not basketball. Outside of Boston who in the East looks like a world beater? Carolina is a good team but the Rangers took them out last year in a game 7 where anything can happen. Hockey history is littered with teams who were looked at at this point in the season as barely playoff contenders and then got behind a hot goaltender, one hot line and the others filling roles and went to the finals. You have the elite goaltender. I don't care why you say about your defense, when your goalie's gaa is a bit above 2.30 with a save % in the .920's you're keeping the puck out of the net. You add some scoring and anything can happen. Yeah you want to stay out of the WC2 spot vs Boston, but Pittsburgh is well within reach. Out of the current WC teams and contenders- Wash, Pitt, Buff and Florida the Isles have the best goaltending. What's the other option? Tearing it down and rebuilding? Realize the Devils have made the playoffs once in the last 10 years and that's with winning the lottery twice. Rebuilding can take a long time in hockey. With the lottery being more like the NBA now and the NHL draft being the least predictable of all leagues, rebuilding can be real tough. Nothing wrong with acquiring Horvat. Nothing wrong with giving a Vezina contender a shot in short series. The negative is the low percentage of success given their current play. This syle is unsustainable. In the larger picture it increases the likelihood of a post Lou abyss. I'm completely with you Stu on the crap shoot of tank rebuilding. I've spent the majority of my fanhood that way. That's why I would prefer a middle path re tool around the current core, surrendering assets if need be to move out the chaff and add a LD and two wings minimum. Then regroup with a better coach.

you're first post in the thread was "deck chairs on titantic" so perhaps we all just misunderstood your definition of middle path?

also you may want to have a word with this guy who earlier in the thread didn't seem to agree that there's "nothing wrong with acquiring horvat"

In comment 16020423 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

Yeah I'm sure he'll continue to shoot at a 22% clip. Seems totally sustainable.

In comment 16020438 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

The point is not to hand out 9 million to a 50 point forward. Especially when the cupboard is bare and 60% of your roster is in decline and physically breaking down.

Horvat is a good player who fits the group and helps the PP.

Horvat is having an outlier season, and the resulting overpay will hinder the multiple roster moves that are needed.

In comment 16021053 Diversify yo bonds said:

Quote:

Horvat is a good player who fits the group and helps the PP. Horvat is having an outlier season, and the resulting overpay will hinder the multiple roster moves that are needed.

they have 11.5m more under the cap to spend this year.

they project to have about 16m free to spend under cap in the offseason with 17/21 active skaters under contract (horvat extension will likely eat up more than half of that).

horvat is probably the best and one of the youngest players lined up for UFA this summer, and had someone else traded for him and extended him they may never have gotten a shot at him. the same may end up true of meier. so if you want younger better forwards to retool around this core im not sure who/how you envisioned doing that.