This was a great season. The fact that we got an overhaul of the front office and new coaching staff was the first step. Then, to qualify for the playoffs and win a road playoff game was huge. Imagine saying that in January of 2022? It was a great first season for Schoen & Daboll.
With that said, this loss adds some important clarity:
1. This team went 9-7-1 with a -6 point differential. Usually a season like that leads to regression the following year.
2. Jones had a very good year, but his best games were against the Vikings defense and Colts.
3. Barkley has durability concerns.
4. This team is still very far from Dallas & Philly.
Losing 38-7 to Philly in the divisional round to cap off a 0-5 season against Dallas & Philly eliminates any false hope. No one can fool themselves in the building about the reality here.
Tough decisions are ahead and there is a lot of work to do. I trust the right people are in charge to get it done.
Also keeps things in perspective. The eagles are significantly more talented and the Giants should now know how they need to build to beat that team.
V.E.R.Y.
that Jones gets a big money extension. He still might but I don’t think it’s a certainty. It’s going to be a long offseason with some tough decisions to be made.
I take it year by year. Heck we won SB 46 and proceeded to miss the playoffs. Yeah this season was a pleasant surprise, but there’s no guarantee that this team will simply improve and be back in the playoffs.
#2: This talking point is asinine. They don’t have good enough receivers, nor do they pass block well enough to throw for 300 yards every week. It’s not a failing of the QB. There’s not a single QB in the sport tearing up good defenses with this type of supporting cast. Literally not one.
#2: This talking point is asinine. They don’t have good enough receivers, nor do they pass block well enough to throw for 300 yards every week. It’s not a failing of the QB. There’s not a single QB in the sport tearing up good defenses with this type of supporting cast. Literally not one.
Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
But he was off target with his throws and made some inexplicably bad decisions. Like running out of bounds for a four yard loss on second and 2 rather than just throwing the ball away.
That made it third and six instead of third and two. And that was the series where Daboll punted it away on 4th and 6. Probably goes for it if its 4th and 2.
Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
The quarterback that you want to perform well with this supporting cast against an extremely talented team DOES NOT EXIST. No QB in the league is doing that. Not a single one.
Justin Herbert is extremely talented. When Mike Williams doesn’t play, he’s a decent QB. When Mike Williams and Keenan Allen don’t play, he’s a bad QB. Joe Burrow isn’t “elevating” anyone. He’s playing with a group of really talented skill position players. Josh Allen’s numbers before Buffalo acquired Stefon Diggs looked… exactly like Daniel Jones’ passing numbers this season. In fact, he never threw for 300 yards in a game until they got Diggs. When Pat Mahomes started his first NFL game, Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce were already established stars. Trevor Lawrence’s rookie numbers were almost entirely across the board worse than Daniel Jones’ rookie numbers. Do you know what the Jags did? They didn’t hire a special teams coach and a loser to be the OC. They hired a Super Bowl winning coach and signed 2 starting receivers and a tight end.
If you know the name of a QB who’s never going to miss a throw, let Joe Schoen know so he can get the guy.
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Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
The quarterback that you want to perform well with this supporting cast against an extremely talented team DOES NOT EXIST. No QB in the league is doing that. Not a single one.
Justin Herbert is extremely talented. When Mike Williams doesn’t play, he’s a decent QB. When Mike Williams and Keenan Allen don’t play, he’s a bad QB. Joe Burrow isn’t “elevating” anyone. He’s playing with a group of really talented skill position players. Josh Allen’s numbers before Buffalo acquired Stefon Diggs looked… exactly like Daniel Jones’ passing numbers this season. In fact, he never threw for 300 yards in a game until they got Diggs. When Pat Mahomes started his first NFL game, Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce were already established stars. Trevor Lawrence’s rookie numbers were almost entirely across the board worse than Daniel Jones’ rookie numbers. Do you know what the Jags did? They didn’t hire a special teams coach and a loser to be the OC. They hired a Super Bowl winning coach and signed 2 starting receivers and a tight end.
If you know the name of a QB who’s never going to miss a throw, let Joe Schoen know so he can get the guy.
Great post.
BBI for one reason or another has a hard time looking around the league and comparing talent to ours. I mean it’s legit NO comparison who other top QBs have to throw to vs jones
It’s actually quite sad how little he has around him
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Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
The quarterback that you want to perform well with this supporting cast against an extremely talented team DOES NOT EXIST. No QB in the league is doing that. Not a single one.
Justin Herbert is extremely talented. When Mike Williams doesn’t play, he’s a decent QB. When Mike Williams and Keenan Allen don’t play, he’s a bad QB. Joe Burrow isn’t “elevating” anyone. He’s playing with a group of really talented skill position players. Josh Allen’s numbers before Buffalo acquired Stefon Diggs looked… exactly like Daniel Jones’ passing numbers this season. In fact, he never threw for 300 yards in a game until they got Diggs. When Pat Mahomes started his first NFL game, Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce were already established stars. Trevor Lawrence’s rookie numbers were almost entirely across the board worse than Daniel Jones’ rookie numbers. Do you know what the Jags did? They didn’t hire a special teams coach and a loser to be the OC. They hired a Super Bowl winning coach and signed 2 starting receivers and a tight end.
If you know the name of a QB who’s never going to miss a throw, let Joe Schoen know so he can get the guy.
He has performed well with this group at times...just not against strong opponents. Trevor Lawrence is not relevant to DJ's evaluation. There were a lot of bad plays from DJ tonight. He missed 5 throws off the top of my head, plus didn't take shots when he should have, he held the ball too long on at least two occasions, he ran out of bounds when he could've just thrown it out of bounds, turning a 3rd and 1 into a 3rd and 6.
He played terribly, regardless of the supporting cast. It's almost as if when he plays well it's because he's so great, and when he doesn't it's because of everybody else. This seems to be a disingenuous argument. Nobody is arguing that there is a lot of room to improve the pieces around him.
The argument is if you give him better pieces, can he take this team over the top and beat some of the better teams in the NFL. That's a fair question, because he hasn't answered it yet with his play on the field. You want to see some signs in a big game like tonight that he can, and he didn't show those signs. He was not good. He missed throws all night long, when receivers were open, or at least when they were open enough.
And Justin Herbert played two games this year without Williams and Allen, and he wasn't as bad as this, in fact, he still looked really good in one of those games, and the other, against SF, the #1 defense in the NFL this year, he was OK, definitely not as bad as DJ was tonight, noticeably better. I don't know what the obsession is with DJ vs Herbert arguments here.
Herbert has already shown definitively that he is one of the better franchise QBs in the league, in a much shorter span of time than DJ. Everybody wants to talk about how Herbert looked this year, and nobody talks about how he played for 6 weeks or so with fractured rib cartilage.
I don't want to go down this Justin Herbert pointless debate. He's a very good QB. DJ doesn't need to be better than Herbert. He has to be a lot better than what he showed tonight.
You are correct that every QB is going to miss a throw here and there. Tonight was not that. He missed and missed and missed, threw a bad INT, didn't manage game situations well, on top of the running out of bounds for a 5-yard loss on 2nd and 1.
This isn't one missed throw we're discussing. His performance was about the worst-case scenario you could've imagined going into this game.
If you say give him better receivers and some improvements on the line, that's great. As I've said, you pay QBs that can make plays against good teams when everything isn't perfect...because that's how it's going to be in the NFL. Players get hurt all the time. If you're constantly going to scapegoat he didn't get good play from the RG or the WRs aren't good enough, well, there's going to be plenty of that in his career, because the NFL is partly a game of attrition. You have to play well when everything isn't perfect, because perfect conditions doesn't happen too often in the NFL.
And if the litmus test is he can win when you have a great OL and receivers, well, Brock Purdy is playing well with a great OL and receivers. All we have to do is get a collection of stars and draft Mr. Irrelevant apparently. That's not what you pay a franchise QB premium money for.
My question is how good is he going to be even if you give him all that talent? Because when the talent was open tonight, he missed a lot of opportunities. I don't care if Daniel Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, but when he's open on a 4-yard out route and you miss him badly, that's not because Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, you just missed the throw. And again, we're not talking one play here.
If you believe he's a stud and just needs more around him, that's great you have that confidence in DJ. But here we are just finishing up year 4, and I still don't know definitely if he can perform at an elite level against a good team or not. He hasn't done that yet, so you're just hoping he can, without him ever showing that on the field.
Yes, he looked outstanding against the Vikings and Colts. Those are bad teams. You know who else looked great against the Vikings this year? Jared Goff. Tore the Vikings a new one. You know who else looked good against the Colts? Davis Mills.
If he's not better than the Jared Goffs of the world, then this team is going to be capped with how far they can go, irrespective of how good the Eagles and Cowboys are, but considering the Giants are chasing them, prepare to be also-rans in perpetuity unless DJ is as good as you think he is or they get someone who is. And the thing is, he hasn't yet shown that in his time yet. You can give me every reason why that hasn't happened. And I'll agree with all those reasons...bad coaching prior to this year, not good enough of a supporting cast, etc. But it doesn't mean that he's who you think he is, either. He could just be one of those good or decent QBs that will never be able to take a team to the next level.
And that's the juncture this team finds itself. I'm not looking for the franchise QB to take the Giants to a bunch of 7 to 10 win seasons and early exits from the playoffs. I'm looking for the franchise QB that other teams fear and one that puts the Giants' offense to score at least 30 points in a game more often than not. A QB that can lead the team to the playoffs year after year.
Again, not saying DJ can't do that, but tonight wasn't a game I can say the Giants have found that guy. I have no idea if this guy is the next Steve Young or the next Ryan Tannehill. That's a problem. But if you're asking me to guess, right now I'd guess he's closer to Ryan Tannehill, and that would be on the positive side of potential outcomes.
I am taking notes from both sides.
I am taking notes from both sides.
Agreed!
that Jones gets a big money extension. He still might but I don’t think it’s a certainty. It’s going to be a long offseason with some tough decisions to be made.
It is a foregone conclusion that DJ gets either a big money contract or plays on the tag. Not clear that the K is with the Giants.
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In comment 16006967 allstarjim said:
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Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight.
You are correct that every QB is going to miss a throw here and there. Tonight was not that. He missed and missed and missed, threw a bad INT, didn't manage game situations well, on top of the running out of bounds for a 5-yard loss on 2nd and 1.
Jim, I agree with much of what you wrote.
He did not play well tonight, and he hasn't played well against very good defenses in general. Running out of bounds instead of throwing it away was a huge brain fart. really makes you question his state of mind in this game.
That said though. I didn't think his play was quite as bad as you are making it out to be. The OL was terrible. Neal was a revolving door. The interior was constantly pushed into Jones' face, and even Thomas played poorly. Normally when things break down, Jones has somewhere to escape to. There was no escape in this game,
His receivers were not getting open.
And the Giants have relied way too much on the short passing game. The INT was a result of good defensive design getting a blitzer with a free run, and Bradbury reading the hot receiver and know the Giants will throw underneath. So he was able to aggressively drive on the ball. Jones saw the free blitzer and was getting it off to the hot receiver like he should. Sometimes you just have to tip your hat to the other guy.
In general, the Eagles proved they are a well coached team with far superior talent. One the game was out of hand, it becomes very tough to come back when you are one dimensional.
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#1: I don’t fear regression. It’s difficult to imagine that this team will be LESS (or equally) talented along the offensive line, wide receiver, or linebacker positions. I’m fact, in those areas, this is as bad as it gets. They’ll have cap space and picks.
#2: This talking point is asinine. They don’t have good enough receivers, nor do they pass block well enough to throw for 300 yards every week. It’s not a failing of the QB. There’s not a single QB in the sport tearing up good defenses with this type of supporting cast. Literally not one.
Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
DJ haters will always have a reason to hate.. He wasn't going to have the same game against the Eagles regardless, their defense is too good up front. This game was never about DJ. He moved them early in first drive then Neal gets driven back and DJ almost slips away bu Thomas steps into him as he is making his escape.
Once the Oline failed there our D gave up another too drive for points. Now any semblance of last week was gone and we were playing catch-up with basically no threats outside..
This idea that Jones best games came against bad defenses ignores that we used to control the clock and keep the passing game to a minimum. Instead we had to become a passing team with no viable outside threats. Blame the QB but I don't care if you put Lamar Jackson, Herbert, Mahomes etc out there, they weren't winning that game.
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#1: I don’t fear regression. It’s difficult to imagine that this team will be LESS (or equally) talented along the offensive line, wide receiver, or linebacker positions. I’m fact, in those areas, this is as bad as it gets. They’ll have cap space and picks.
#2: This talking point is asinine. They don’t have good enough receivers, nor do they pass block well enough to throw for 300 yards every week. It’s not a failing of the QB. There’s not a single QB in the sport tearing up good defenses with this type of supporting cast. Literally not one.
Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
I mean come on, you said it yourself, the supporting cast wasn’t good enough. Honestly, which quarterback in the league is elevating an offense with Hodgins, Slayton and Richie James any further than where Jones did this year? Nobody expected this team to be competitive this year, and Jones not only elevated them enough to get to the playoffs, but actually won a postseason game!
Nobody is elevating a team with those receivers, a turnstile at RT, and a traffic cone at center any further than they went this year. Luckily for us, nobody has to as you can bet your ass the front office is going to upgrade the talent on this roster during the off-season. I am looking forward to what Jones can do with a better team around him next season.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to unsee what we saw yesterday. We won't know the full story until we see how the Eagles playoff run unfolds, but I suspect they will actually be tested by good quarterback play in the next game or two. We'll see.
Eager to see Sy's review.
It will be interesting to see what JS does here with him and the rest of the team this offseason. As Sean mentioned its clear we are still a ways behind the upper tier teams in the division/conference.
Most are nice regular season QB's who also show deficiencies come playoff team.
Solution? You build a better team starting with the fronts.
Jones proved he is good enough for now. Now the Giants have to understand him and build a team accordingly around him on both sides imv.
Deal you can get out of in 2-3 years (which has been suggested) or tag.
The issue is finding this "magical QB". They mostly all have flaws and you also have to be in position where both one is available in the draft and in position or can get in position to get him.
But the real fan base that felt the Eagles were running up the score on the Giants last night do?
100%.
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In comment 16006967 allstarjim said:
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Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
The quarterback that you want to perform well with this supporting cast against an extremely talented team DOES NOT EXIST. No QB in the league is doing that. Not a single one.
Justin Herbert is extremely talented. When Mike Williams doesn’t play, he’s a decent QB. When Mike Williams and Keenan Allen don’t play, he’s a bad QB. Joe Burrow isn’t “elevating” anyone. He’s playing with a group of really talented skill position players. Josh Allen’s numbers before Buffalo acquired Stefon Diggs looked… exactly like Daniel Jones’ passing numbers this season. In fact, he never threw for 300 yards in a game until they got Diggs. When Pat Mahomes started his first NFL game, Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce were already established stars. Trevor Lawrence’s rookie numbers were almost entirely across the board worse than Daniel Jones’ rookie numbers. Do you know what the Jags did? They didn’t hire a special teams coach and a loser to be the OC. They hired a Super Bowl winning coach and signed 2 starting receivers and a tight end.
If you know the name of a QB who’s never going to miss a throw, let Joe Schoen know so he can get the guy.
He has performed well with this group at times...just not against strong opponents. Trevor Lawrence is not relevant to DJ's evaluation. There were a lot of bad plays from DJ tonight. He missed 5 throws off the top of my head, plus didn't take shots when he should have, he held the ball too long on at least two occasions, he ran out of bounds when he could've just thrown it out of bounds, turning a 3rd and 1 into a 3rd and 6.
He played terribly, regardless of the supporting cast. It's almost as if when he plays well it's because he's so great, and when he doesn't it's because of everybody else. This seems to be a disingenuous argument. Nobody is arguing that there is a lot of room to improve the pieces around him.
The argument is if you give him better pieces, can he take this team over the top and beat some of the better teams in the NFL. That's a fair question, because he hasn't answered it yet with his play on the field. You want to see some signs in a big game like tonight that he can, and he didn't show those signs. He was not good. He missed throws all night long, when receivers were open, or at least when they were open enough.
And Justin Herbert played two games this year without Williams and Allen, and he wasn't as bad as this, in fact, he still looked really good in one of those games, and the other, against SF, the #1 defense in the NFL this year, he was OK, definitely not as bad as DJ was tonight, noticeably better. I don't know what the obsession is with DJ vs Herbert arguments here.
Herbert has already shown definitively that he is one of the better franchise QBs in the league, in a much shorter span of time than DJ. Everybody wants to talk about how Herbert looked this year, and nobody talks about how he played for 6 weeks or so with fractured rib cartilage.
I don't want to go down this Justin Herbert pointless debate. He's a very good QB. DJ doesn't need to be better than Herbert. He has to be a lot better than what he showed tonight.
You are correct that every QB is going to miss a throw here and there. Tonight was not that. He missed and missed and missed, threw a bad INT, didn't manage game situations well, on top of the running out of bounds for a 5-yard loss on 2nd and 1.
This isn't one missed throw we're discussing. His performance was about the worst-case scenario you could've imagined going into this game.
If you say give him better receivers and some improvements on the line, that's great. As I've said, you pay QBs that can make plays against good teams when everything isn't perfect...because that's how it's going to be in the NFL. Players get hurt all the time. If you're constantly going to scapegoat he didn't get good play from the RG or the WRs aren't good enough, well, there's going to be plenty of that in his career, because the NFL is partly a game of attrition. You have to play well when everything isn't perfect, because perfect conditions doesn't happen too often in the NFL.
And if the litmus test is he can win when you have a great OL and receivers, well, Brock Purdy is playing well with a great OL and receivers. All we have to do is get a collection of stars and draft Mr. Irrelevant apparently. That's not what you pay a franchise QB premium money for.
My question is how good is he going to be even if you give him all that talent? Because when the talent was open tonight, he missed a lot of opportunities. I don't care if Daniel Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, but when he's open on a 4-yard out route and you miss him badly, that's not because Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, you just missed the throw. And again, we're not talking one play here.
If you believe he's a stud and just needs more around him, that's great you have that confidence in DJ. But here we are just finishing up year 4, and I still don't know definitely if he can perform at an elite level against a good team or not. He hasn't done that yet, so you're just hoping he can, without him ever showing that on the field.
Yes, he looked outstanding against the Vikings and Colts. Those are bad teams. You know who else looked great against the Vikings this year? Jared Goff. Tore the Vikings a new one. You know who else looked good against the Colts? Davis Mills.
If he's not better than the Jared Goffs of the world, then this team is going to be capped with how far they can go, irrespective of how good the Eagles and Cowboys are, but considering the Giants are chasing them, prepare to be also-rans in perpetuity unless DJ is as good as you think he is or they get someone who is. And the thing is, he hasn't yet shown that in his time yet. You can give me every reason why that hasn't happened. And I'll agree with all those reasons...bad coaching prior to this year, not good enough of a supporting cast, etc. But it doesn't mean that he's who you think he is, either. He could just be one of those good or decent QBs that will never be able to take a team to the next level.
And that's the juncture this team finds itself. I'm not looking for the franchise QB to take the Giants to a bunch of 7 to 10 win seasons and early exits from the playoffs. I'm looking for the franchise QB that other teams fear and one that puts the Giants' offense to score at least 30 points in a game more often than not. A QB that can lead the team to the playoffs year after year.
Again, not saying DJ can't do that, but tonight wasn't a game I can say the Giants have found that guy. I have no idea if this guy is the next Steve Young or the next Ryan Tannehill. That's a problem. But if you're asking me to guess, right now I'd guess he's closer to Ryan Tannehill, and that would be on the positive side of potential outcomes.
Well said.
So it’s the same discussion as all season long, are we going to upgrade the talent or not and how much will that allow Jones to take the next step? Guess we’ll find out.
But he was off target with his throws and made some inexplicably bad decisions. Like running out of bounds for a four yard loss on second and 2 rather than just throwing the ball away.
That made it third and six instead of third and two. And that was the series where Daboll punted it away on 4th and 6. Probably goes for it if its 4th and 2.
+1 What disappointed me is not the loss but how DJ played mentally. He has to lead the team regardless of what is happening to the team or his teammates. He has to hold his composure and think straight when everything around him is imploding. If he can't physically make the throw or run because of the better defense then that fine but to make mental mistakes like the 2nd and 2 play where he had plenty of time to throw it away instead he runs out of bounds to take a 4 yard loss is ridicules. The INT he threw which he could have thrown it to an open Saquon instead. He can look good against bad teams but the real deal is to perform mentally well against good teams when your team is not performing well. Can he lead and put the team on his shoulder against a good team regardless if they win. Yesterday, being a leader that he should be as being the QB he was like the rest of his teammates. I was totally disappointed. I expected more from him regardless if we loss. Now is he the QB with and has the mental fortitude to lead a football team?
What a surprise. I guess you didn't see how closely his receivers were covered when Philly played man coverage. Hodgins wasn't open all night. The only time Slayton was open was on that deep ball that was slightly underthrown. But a semi-physical receiver would have caught that ball.
And then there's Philly's pass rush. When you can get pressure with 4 you can cover with 7. And with no one to stretch the field the area those 7 need to cover is condensed, almost as if you're always in the red zone.
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Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
It's not asinine. It's a fact that DJ's big performances were against bad defenses. He was not good tonight. He missed a lot of throws, had a terrible mental gaffe. He came up small in a game that demanded the opposite. Can he take the next step up? Sure. If he has improvements will he likely play better? I think so. How much better is the question. This is an enormous question mark. How the Giants answer this question going forward and how DJ responds will determine if the Giants can go from also-rans to division favorites.
After tonight, it's a fair question and his contract SHOULD reflect the risk involved, which is significant.
The quarterback that you want to perform well with this supporting cast against an extremely talented team DOES NOT EXIST. No QB in the league is doing that. Not a single one.
Justin Herbert is extremely talented. When Mike Williams doesn’t play, he’s a decent QB. When Mike Williams and Keenan Allen don’t play, he’s a bad QB. Joe Burrow isn’t “elevating” anyone. He’s playing with a group of really talented skill position players. Josh Allen’s numbers before Buffalo acquired Stefon Diggs looked… exactly like Daniel Jones’ passing numbers this season. In fact, he never threw for 300 yards in a game until they got Diggs. When Pat Mahomes started his first NFL game, Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce were already established stars. Trevor Lawrence’s rookie numbers were almost entirely across the board worse than Daniel Jones’ rookie numbers. Do you know what the Jags did? They didn’t hire a special teams coach and a loser to be the OC. They hired a Super Bowl winning coach and signed 2 starting receivers and a tight end.
If you know the name of a QB who’s never going to miss a throw, let Joe Schoen know so he can get the guy.
well put!
Absolutely correct. We got an old fashioned ass whipping from a deeper, more talented and much more physical team.
Once the OL at least holds their own then the skills players can show what they can do. This is why they look so much better when they are not playing Philly or Dallas, because those teams are cremating our OL.
Why people continue to place blame on QB and RB, and not look at where it all starts, is beyond me. The OL doesn't need to be "good", just functioning. Last night they were not. 63% of the time your QB is under pressure is pathetic
Two things can be true at once. DJ's supporting cast isn't strong enough, and he might not be good enough to elevate this offense to ultimately where they need to go.
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Let's say DJ is as good as Hurts? Will the giants get enough really good players, at reasonable contracts, along with hitting on pretty much every draft pick, to even compete with a team like the current Eagles any time soon? Even if it's not the Eagles, some team in the NFL will be (or seem) that good every year.
I really think some FA's (moderately talented at least) come to a team on a bit friendlier deal, if they think it is a winning org and they might get a SB. Hoping we start being recognized as an org on the way up, but that would still be several years away, to be seen as that consistently, by FA's. Will that hamper us in the next 2-3 years from getting those last couple FA's pieces, for somewhat friendly cap deals? I think it will, even if we do/hit on everything else 100% right.
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Because most of this fann base doesn't deserve a good QB.
But the real fan base that felt the Eagles were running up the score on the Giants last night do?
So you have been a fan for how long? We have 4 SB’s since 1986. I waited 20 years for that. The instant gratification group puts so much stock in the QB position. We have won 4 SB’s and our QB’s were not elite. Won on defense. The GM gets paid to figure it out.
He has performed well with this group at times...just not against strong opponents. Trevor Lawrence is not relevant to DJ's evaluation. There were a lot of bad plays from DJ tonight. He missed 5 throws off the top of my head, plus didn't take shots when he should have, he held the ball too long on at least two occasions, he ran out of bounds when he could've just thrown it out of bounds, turning a 3rd and 1 into a 3rd and 6.
He played terribly, regardless of the supporting cast. It's almost as if when he plays well it's because he's so great, and when he doesn't it's because of everybody else. This seems to be a disingenuous argument. Nobody is arguing that there is a lot of room to improve the pieces around him.
The argument is if you give him better pieces, can he take this team over the top and beat some of the better teams in the NFL. That's a fair question, because he hasn't answered it yet with his play on the field. You want to see some signs in a big game like tonight that he can, and he didn't show those signs. He was not good. He missed throws all night long, when receivers were open, or at least when they were open enough.
And Justin Herbert played two games this year without Williams and Allen, and he wasn't as bad as this, in fact, he still looked really good in one of those games, and the other, against SF, the #1 defense in the NFL this year, he was OK, definitely not as bad as DJ was tonight, noticeably better. I don't know what the obsession is with DJ vs Herbert arguments here.
Herbert has already shown definitively that he is one of the better franchise QBs in the league, in a much shorter span of time than DJ. Everybody wants to talk about how Herbert looked this year, and nobody talks about how he played for 6 weeks or so with fractured rib cartilage.
I don't want to go down this Justin Herbert pointless debate. He's a very good QB. DJ doesn't need to be better than Herbert. He has to be a lot better than what he showed tonight.
You are correct that every QB is going to miss a throw here and there. Tonight was not that. He missed and missed and missed, threw a bad INT, didn't manage game situations well, on top of the running out of bounds for a 5-yard loss on 2nd and 1.
This isn't one missed throw we're discussing. His performance was about the worst-case scenario you could've imagined going into this game.
If you say give him better receivers and some improvements on the line, that's great. As I've said, you pay QBs that can make plays against good teams when everything isn't perfect...because that's how it's going to be in the NFL. Players get hurt all the time. If you're constantly going to scapegoat he didn't get good play from the RG or the WRs aren't good enough, well, there's going to be plenty of that in his career, because the NFL is partly a game of attrition. You have to play well when everything isn't perfect, because perfect conditions doesn't happen too often in the NFL.
And if the litmus test is he can win when you have a great OL and receivers, well, Brock Purdy is playing well with a great OL and receivers. All we have to do is get a collection of stars and draft Mr. Irrelevant apparently. That's not what you pay a franchise QB premium money for.
My question is how good is he going to be even if you give him all that talent? Because when the talent was open tonight, he missed a lot of opportunities. I don't care if Daniel Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, but when he's open on a 4-yard out route and you miss him badly, that's not because Bellinger isn't Travis Kelce, you just missed the throw. And again, we're not talking one play here.
If you believe he's a stud and just needs more around him, that's great you have that confidence in DJ. But here we are just finishing up year 4, and I still don't know definitely if he can perform at an elite level against a good team or not. He hasn't done that yet, so you're just hoping he can, without him ever showing that on the field.
Yes, he looked outstanding against the Vikings and Colts. Those are bad teams. You know who else looked great against the Vikings this year? Jared Goff. Tore the Vikings a new one. You know who else looked good against the Colts? Davis Mills.
If he's not better than the Jared Goffs of the world, then this team is going to be capped with how far they can go, irrespective of how good the Eagles and Cowboys are, but considering the Giants are chasing them, prepare to be also-rans in perpetuity unless DJ is as good as you think he is or they get someone who is. And the thing is, he hasn't yet shown that in his time yet. You can give me every reason why that hasn't happened. And I'll agree with all those reasons...bad coaching prior to this year, not good enough of a supporting cast, etc. But it doesn't mean that he's who you think he is, either. He could just be one of those good or decent QBs that will never be able to take a team to the next level.
And that's the juncture this team finds itself. I'm not looking for the franchise QB to take the Giants to a bunch of 7 to 10 win seasons and early exits from the playoffs. I'm looking for the franchise QB that other teams fear and one that puts the Giants' offense to score at least 30 points in a game more often than not. A QB that can lead the team to the playoffs year after year.
Again, not saying DJ can't do that, but tonight wasn't a game I can say the Giants have found that guy. I have no idea if this guy is the next Steve Young or the next Ryan Tannehill. That's a problem. But if you're asking me to guess, right now I'd guess he's closer to Ryan Tannehill, and that would be on the positive side of potential outcomes.
I’ll try to respond point by point.
Did you watch the Jaguars versus the Titans 3 weeks ago? Trevor Lawrence missed three throws badly to the end zone, including one to a receiver who was so wide open that anything in the field of play would’ve been a TD. Instead, he threw it ten yards out of the end zone. He underthrew another receiver in the end zone who was behind the defender. The interesting thing is he did these exact same things in the Jags’ Week 1 loss to WASH. He missed several throws to players, including a pair to open receivers in the end zone. The point is people miss throws and make bad decisions, especially as a result of pass rush. If they didn’t, there would be no need to get pass rushers. As has been mentioned in other places, the Giants pass protection in the first half was one of the three worst performances in a half of a postseason game in nearly the past 15 years (since those stats have been recorded). To give further context, both previous instances were by the Seahawks with Russell Wilson in 2015 and 2016. Do you know how many points the Seahawks scored combined in those two halves with horrendous pass protection? ZERO. No one is overcoming that.
Justin Herbert, the guy with the great arm, averaged 5.65 YPA with more interceptions and fumbles than TDs when Keenan Allen and Mike Williams were both out of the lineup. Over a full season, that YPA would be the worst number in the NFL by a wide margin. I would characterize that play as “bad”. Are we to believe that Herbert’s arm isn’t as strong with less talent at receiver? Of course not. The surrounding cast matters. Herbert and Daniel Jones played the “bad” Colts defense just 6 days apart late in the season. Who do you think played better? It was Daniel Jones by a WIDE margin. That certainly doesn’t mean Jones is better. Of course not, but it shows the foolishness of reducing everything to whether the opponent was “good or “bad”.
I truly don’t know how to respond to the idea that it doesn’t matter who the supporting cast is. None of the QBs you like are being asked to win a postseason game against a good team with Darius Slayton, the Giants most targeted receiver in Daniel Jones two best seasons. I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to understand why. Talented skill position players get open. They make plays when they’re not open, as evidenced by the amount of TDs Jalen Hurts threw this season to double covered AJ Brown and Devonte Smith. They give better effort on the underthrown deep ball by Jones to Slayton. And they sure as hell don’t lead the NFL in drop percentage the way Slayton did this season.
And the litmus test shouldn’t be whether Daniel Jones needs the Niners skill position talent to win. But intelligent people also wouldn’t use Jones’ inability to play well against an excellent defense with a bottom three offensive line in the league (according to PFF) and a group of receivers and tight ends who wouldn’t start on a single one of the teams playing this weekend. Not a single one. Do you know why? As I said in my original post, no one else is doing it. Why would we expect Daniel Jones to? It makes no sense.
To use the Jared Goff example, do you know when Sean McVay decided that Goff wasn’t good enough? He actually watched him with an in their primes Robert Woods and Cooper Kupp. According to PFF, the Rams had the third best offensive line in the NFL in Goff’s final season there. He didn’t base it on missing Daniel Bellinger on an out pattern. Even Ryan Tannehill had Mike Wallace and Jarvis Landry in Miami, then AJ Brown when he moved to Tennessee. When he didn’t have those guys this season, Tannehill was worse than Daniel Jones in QBR, DYAR, and several other measurements.
As I’ve said numerous times, I’ve never once advocated re-signing Daniel Jones. Not once. And I actually like him. He was bad last night. Here’s the thing… everyone else was too with the exception of Richie James (maybe), Saquon Barkley (maybe) and Matt Breida. Literally everyone else stunk. But the idea that Daniel Jones should’ve “elevated” the guys he was playing with last night against an opponent the caliber of Philadelphia is preposterous. Watch today’s games. The difference in skill position talent will be Grand Canyon-esque. This matters in how you develop and evaluate a QB.