Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
Bringing in this GM and Coach was the most important decision since drafting Eli.
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
is more important. That's where the gulf in class was
This is overly simplistic. It was just as much in playmakers. They had two solid CBs, pass rushers up and down first and second levels on defense, and two Pro Bowl caliber WRs and RB depth three deep.
Sometimes you need to let things develop. Just look at the Eagles line.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
Agree, he did not help himself at all - but that is more about years and gtd money. Bad outing.
I think we needed more out of the HC, DC and OC, too(last night only). That was some smelly mess on both sides of the ball
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
LoS, chick is Googs dupe.
Right. And let me guess, you're Inspector Clouseau?
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
Still a lot to do on Offense and Defense.
Interior OL could use more investment and doesn't always have to be Day 1&2 picks. Our rookie class was decimated with injuries and Neal will most certainly develop more in Yr 2.
Hopefully Schoen keeps churning the roster and doesn't get caught up in thinking there are that many core players here and he needs to open up checkbook for everybody.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
What makes you think that isn’t in progress here? They added three draftees and two short term FA fits. We can’t keep spending high (1st/2nd round) draft capital on OL year after year. Guys have to be given a chance and evaluated. We are only at Year one of a new regime who inherited a cap and roster mess. Some talents yes, but overall a mess of a cap and poor depth everywhere.
Dunk, you talk a lot of shit and are generally just an asshole, all of the time.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
“All young players do have to develop. I do think he’s developed. Is he going to be our long term left tackle? We don’t know that, but if you look at him compared to a lot of left tackles around the National Football League, there’s a bunch of comparables around,” general manager Jerry Reese said on Tues “I do think that he gets pointed out unfairly a little bit at times,” Reese said. “Ereck is a big boy and there’s been guys that have been picked higher than him in the offensive line who have struggled. Different positions struggle at different times and I do think he’s working hard and I do think he’s improving and we’ll continue to support him and hopefully he’ll continue to improve and be a good player.”
Yup, wait on players not up to snuff because of draft position.
It does not matter where they are picked. What matters is results.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I never said that they have to be high picks. I just saw the results this year. That is for JS to evaluate. I just want it to be a honest and accurate one and not based on hope or because assets were already committed. If he is comfortable then the results should show better soon. If not take action.
...is our two best players are unrestricted and probably calling for expensive deals.
How the Giants will handle this is important because we aren't a upper echelon team. They don't want to get hamstrung by investing in both guys while limiting how the rest of the team can be built.
I think Jones is the more important piece. I'd like to get him signed to a deal that works for both sides in the 3-4 year range, while keeping their options open to drafting another QB if they see it (like KC did with Alex Smith and Mahomes).
Barkley is a RB and I'd be very careful with handing out money to him on second contract cosidering the beating NFL running backs take and his injury history. I just feel the draft or free agency could get a back very similar in production at a lower cost, esp if you improve the interior OL (and overall general offensive personnel).
Bottom line - gotta trust the new regime to plot our course and I am pretty sure they aren't going to subject to the ebb and flow that this message board does with players from week to week!
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
I like your post and agree about SB. It may depend how JS can work the financial aspect but I would not want a big investment in him if it hamstrings addressing other critical areas.
Dunk, you talk a lot of shit and are generally just an asshole, all of the time.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Negative That's just someone who likes posting Reese pictures and has a agenda protecting him at all costs. I'm just someone who understands a future HOF coach.
What helped with coming to part of my thoughts is when Pugh was drafted Gilbride spilled the beans that he was so happy as they had been telling the front office for a while to get some OL in here. That was telling at Gilbride was the first to be scapegoated at season's end. It was not TC as you have recently suggested. Another of many marks you miss.
What is interesting in addition to Reese backing Flowers posted above McAdoo also was on the message but certainly liked throwing Eli under the bus (or Clock for you). After being fired McAdoo then said Flowers can't play left tackle and I even think right as well. HC's have to tell the truth.
TC told the truth to Ernie and he had Wellington's back early. I am sure you recognize how much Welly loved TC right? He had waited for him for over ten years. Sure, TC would not have a big say......okay.
The truth. Isn't this what you asked from posters? I'm not seeing much truth from you tbh.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
That’s a lot of words, when it’s a true or false question.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
after so many games in which Jones definitely showed improvement over his previous seasons but I feel like we're in a similar same spot as we were at the beginning of last season: is there enough evidence yet to show that he's the answer, or is signing him long-term still based mostly on faith?
That’s a lot of words, when it’s a true or false question.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
Yes the foundation of the fronts were set and it proved to be a good assessment. Then you build outside. They also still did add some OL. Boothe was a key waiver wire pickup.
Ready for the truth? Big men should have the ability to reevaluate a position. You have called quite a few little men so I will make a assumption (which I don't like) and assume you are one. Reese pictures or the truth. Again you decide. Unless of course you believed the OL of 2011 was going to be around. I mean you did suggest last week that you wished Reese didn't draft OL and doubled down on more WR's during the great destruction (2013-17). True right?
According to your timeline, when Coughlin was in charge of the draft, the Giants neglected the offensive line. When the players from the Super Bowl runs aged and injuried out — the Giants were left with no developmental talent. This is your timeline and your set of facts dude. Own it and accept it amigo.
According to your timeline, when Coughlin was in charge of the draft, the Giants neglected the offensive line. When the players from the Super Bowl runs aged and injuried out — the Giants were left with no developmental talent. This is your timeline and your set of facts dude. Own it and accept it amigo.
Negative. What I said when TC came in it became the highest priority. Controlling the LOS. The moves to follow show this. Go back and listen to his intro. Wellington even said it was music to his ears. That's my truth.
Reese did great work in carrying his part of it out. As did Dave. This after EA left.
Now later Reese......what a disaster that backend part of his tenure. Sad with a two time SB MVP QB who was a pocket passer. This is also my truth.
You have yours. History will decide who told it correctly.
Hope you don't slam TC and Eli when they go the HOF. I will wish Reese good luck if he gets another chance but seems odd he has not been hired already......or not.
My guess is Coughlin and Reese collaborated well in the beginning. Reese had an excellent record as a college scouting director.
Coughlin was a true disciple of the Erhardt-Perkins approach, and as a former WR coach understood the best way to open up the vertical game was play action and putting his offense in favorable down and distances. But he also wanted top pedigree WRs and spent cap and draft capital to put together that group.
The Giants had two really big strokes of luck on the offensive line: David Diehl proved to be a competent LT, and Rich Seubert recovered from his injury. The midrange investment of O’Hara, Boothe, and Baas worked out well for a short period. The big investment in McKenzie worked out perfectly.
As a product of low draft investment and bad luck with injuries, the offensive line fell off a cliff in 2013. Coughlin and Reese are both to blame.
Keep in mind Snee, Baas, and Beatty were all effectively shot by the age of 30. That’s bad luck. But they didn’t invest in the line in any significant way during the glory years.
By the time they got serious in investing, Mara was vocally creating rifts between the staff and management. There were clear power struggles, and during that period of time they spent a bunch of premium picks on lineman who failed.
First though lets not educate me on TC. Simple truth.
Agree some power struggles which TC ultimately lost. That is truth. TC surely contributed to it. Truth. Now you said some time ago that Reese should have been sent away with TC. That's not the truth from you but agree he should have been gone with TC.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
Last night may have been the worst possible outcome re: Jones
After Indy and last night, I think most people were finally more or less in sync on bringing Jones back. He was our QB and showed he can win.
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
Last week, some were ready to go up to $40M if that's what got it done and many who were not on board previously, were at least resigned to the fact that Jones would likely be back and likely be paid big time. Last night, though, allowed questions to creep back to the forefront because this was a good D and he did nothing.
Would I still like him back? Yes. That hasn't changed. But, my initial thoughts that I wouldn't pay him $35M+ returned. I'm not sure how low I think he should get, but I know that's my ceiling and I think it's more than generous.
The real question is what are Schoen's floor and ceiling for Jones.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
What the flying fuck are you continuing to babble about? “Or more Reese picks”? Wtf? This regime had two 1st round picks in the first draft. What positions did they draft? Yep, that’s right, OL and DL. Trenches.
They didn't ignore it. They just whiffed on virtually every pick and FA after 2011. They spent high picks on Hernandez, Richburg, and FLowers in consecutive years. They all sucked. They spent money on tons of FAs who all sucked.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
No, no little pants on fire.
You made up something I didn’t say, and don’t have the integrity to admit. That makes you a liar.
I challenged you on this thread to accept the logical inferences you were making, based on timing and Coughlin’s role. You said it not me.
I’m just gonna start calling you The Track, because I love running circles around you.
Until next time indeed!
RE: Last night may have been the worst possible outcome re: Jones
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
That's where I was, too. I know Philly has a high-end D, but a high-end QB will figure out more than DJ did last. So, I expected a much better effort.
Yet, he did not look the franchise QB part at all. That robotic nature to his game crept back in. And that's disappointing because it seemed - or it was hoped - the light finally went on for good the last few weeks.
Seen you like to come on strong with posters. Some good stuff from you but some not the case.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
RE: I'm tired of the notion that they ignored the OL
They didn't ignore it. They just whiffed on virtually every pick and FA after 2011. They spent high picks on Hernandez, Richburg, and FLowers in consecutive years. They all sucked. They spent money on tons of FAs who all sucked.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
The Reese/Coughlin/Gettleman group hit on all the OL moves for a long period of time. It was a hell of a run. And you can't under appreciate the job Pat Flaherty did as well.
Seen you like to come on strong with posters. Some good stuff from you but some not the case.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
Yes, please save the clown talk for someone else or yourself! We're here to discuss fictional phone calls between Schoen and Parcells, BBS. Nothing else will be tolerated.
Bingo and it starts with acknowledgement and then following the truth for actions that need or don't need to happen.
Haha. When does Parcell also break it to Joe that Daboll should have run the ball 30 times last night...next week's call?
No, no. George Young will call from the grave to avail that wisdom.
Quote:
...2022 was a fun ride.
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
During which they went what? 4-6-1?
Quote:
is more important. That's where the gulf in class was
Bingo and it starts with acknowledgement and then following the truth for actions that need or don't need to happen.
What's the acknowledge look like to you? How will we know that the acknowledgement has happened so we can track the subsequent following of the truth?
Quote:
Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
Bringing in this GM and Coach was the most important decision since drafting Eli.
This is overly simplistic. It was just as much in playmakers. They had two solid CBs, pass rushers up and down first and second levels on defense, and two Pro Bowl caliber WRs and RB depth three deep.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
Bingo.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
Quote:
column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
Agree, he did not help himself at all - but that is more about years and gtd money. Bad outing.
I think we needed more out of the HC, DC and OC, too(last night only). That was some smelly mess on both sides of the ball
Quote:
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
LoS, chick is Googs dupe.
Right. And let me guess, you're Inspector Clouseau?
Quote:
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
This certainly a strong possibility and those positional groups are also big weak spots on the team.
Quote:
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
Still a lot to do on Offense and Defense.
Interior OL could use more investment and doesn't always have to be Day 1&2 picks. Our rookie class was decimated with injuries and Neal will most certainly develop more in Yr 2.
Hopefully Schoen keeps churning the roster and doesn't get caught up in thinking there are that many core players here and he needs to open up checkbook for everybody.
Quote:
In comment 16007709 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
What makes you think that isn’t in progress here? They added three draftees and two short term FA fits. We can’t keep spending high (1st/2nd round) draft capital on OL year after year. Guys have to be given a chance and evaluated. We are only at Year one of a new regime who inherited a cap and roster mess. Some talents yes, but overall a mess of a cap and poor depth everywhere.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
Yup, wait on players not up to snuff because of draft position.
It does not matter where they are picked. What matters is results.
Quote:
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Quote:
In comment 16007766 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
That's it.
How the Giants will handle this is important because we aren't a upper echelon team. They don't want to get hamstrung by investing in both guys while limiting how the rest of the team can be built.
I think Jones is the more important piece. I'd like to get him signed to a deal that works for both sides in the 3-4 year range, while keeping their options open to drafting another QB if they see it (like KC did with Alex Smith and Mahomes).
Barkley is a RB and I'd be very careful with handing out money to him on second contract cosidering the beating NFL running backs take and his injury history. I just feel the draft or free agency could get a back very similar in production at a lower cost, esp if you improve the interior OL (and overall general offensive personnel).
Bottom line - gotta trust the new regime to plot our course and I am pretty sure they aren't going to subject to the ebb and flow that this message board does with players from week to week!
Quote:
In comment 16007797 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16007766 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
ryanmkeane: 62% = 100%.
Got it, thanks.
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Quote:
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Negative That's just someone who likes posting Reese pictures and has a agenda protecting him at all costs. I'm just someone who understands a future HOF coach.
What helped with coming to part of my thoughts is when Pugh was drafted Gilbride spilled the beans that he was so happy as they had been telling the front office for a while to get some OL in here. That was telling at Gilbride was the first to be scapegoated at season's end. It was not TC as you have recently suggested. Another of many marks you miss.
What is interesting in addition to Reese backing Flowers posted above McAdoo also was on the message but certainly liked throwing Eli under the bus (or Clock for you). After being fired McAdoo then said Flowers can't play left tackle and I even think right as well. HC's have to tell the truth.
TC told the truth to Ernie and he had Wellington's back early. I am sure you recognize how much Welly loved TC right? He had waited for him for over ten years. Sure, TC would not have a big say......okay.
The truth. Isn't this what you asked from posters? I'm not seeing much truth from you tbh.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
Yes the foundation of the fronts were set and it proved to be a good assessment. Then you build outside. They also still did add some OL. Boothe was a key waiver wire pickup.
Ready for the truth? Big men should have the ability to reevaluate a position. You have called quite a few little men so I will make a assumption (which I don't like) and assume you are one. Reese pictures or the truth. Again you decide. Unless of course you believed the OL of 2011 was going to be around. I mean you did suggest last week that you wished Reese didn't draft OL and doubled down on more WR's during the great destruction (2013-17). True right?
Enormous one and a good one.
Negative. What I said when TC came in it became the highest priority. Controlling the LOS. The moves to follow show this. Go back and listen to his intro. Wellington even said it was music to his ears. That's my truth.
Reese did great work in carrying his part of it out. As did Dave. This after EA left.
Now later Reese......what a disaster that backend part of his tenure. Sad with a two time SB MVP QB who was a pocket passer. This is also my truth.
You have yours. History will decide who told it correctly.
Hope you don't slam TC and Eli when they go the HOF. I will wish Reese good luck if he gets another chance but seems odd he has not been hired already......or not.
Perhaps the league knows the truth.
Coughlin was a true disciple of the Erhardt-Perkins approach, and as a former WR coach understood the best way to open up the vertical game was play action and putting his offense in favorable down and distances. But he also wanted top pedigree WRs and spent cap and draft capital to put together that group.
The Giants had two really big strokes of luck on the offensive line: David Diehl proved to be a competent LT, and Rich Seubert recovered from his injury. The midrange investment of O’Hara, Boothe, and Baas worked out well for a short period. The big investment in McKenzie worked out perfectly.
As a product of low draft investment and bad luck with injuries, the offensive line fell off a cliff in 2013. Coughlin and Reese are both to blame.
Keep in mind Snee, Baas, and Beatty were all effectively shot by the age of 30. That’s bad luck. But they didn’t invest in the line in any significant way during the glory years.
By the time they got serious in investing, Mara was vocally creating rifts between the staff and management. There were clear power struggles, and during that period of time they spent a bunch of premium picks on lineman who failed.
Agree some power struggles which TC ultimately lost. That is truth. TC surely contributed to it. Truth. Now you said some time ago that Reese should have been sent away with TC. That's not the truth from you but agree he should have been gone with TC.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
Last week, some were ready to go up to $40M if that's what got it done and many who were not on board previously, were at least resigned to the fact that Jones would likely be back and likely be paid big time. Last night, though, allowed questions to creep back to the forefront because this was a good D and he did nothing.
Would I still like him back? Yes. That hasn't changed. But, my initial thoughts that I wouldn't pay him $35M+ returned. I'm not sure how low I think he should get, but I know that's my ceiling and I think it's more than generous.
The real question is what are Schoen's floor and ceiling for Jones.
Quote:
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
What the flying fuck are you continuing to babble about? “Or more Reese picks”? Wtf? This regime had two 1st round picks in the first draft. What positions did they draft? Yep, that’s right, OL and DL. Trenches.
But yeah, “more Reese….”. Clown.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
Maybe next time.
No, no little pants on fire.
You made up something I didn’t say, and don’t have the integrity to admit. That makes you a liar.
I challenged you on this thread to accept the logical inferences you were making, based on timing and Coughlin’s role. You said it not me.
I’m just gonna start calling you The Track, because I love running circles around you.
Until next time indeed!
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
That's where I was, too. I know Philly has a high-end D, but a high-end QB will figure out more than DJ did last. So, I expected a much better effort.
Yet, he did not look the franchise QB part at all. That robotic nature to his game crept back in. And that's disappointing because it seemed - or it was hoped - the light finally went on for good the last few weeks.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
The Reese/Coughlin/Gettleman group hit on all the OL moves for a long period of time. It was a hell of a run. And you can't under appreciate the job Pat Flaherty did as well.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
Yes, please save the clown talk for someone else or yourself! We're here to discuss fictional phone calls between Schoen and Parcells, BBS. Nothing else will be tolerated.
Quote:
...the Giants will take a WR or CB on day one.
This certainly a strong possibility and those positional groups are also big weak spots on the team.
or a 3-down MLB who can also rush the QB.