Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
Umm…as far as importance I wouldn’t say so. They’ve already got him on the team and it’s clear he’s the QB IMO. It’s more important to get the draft and free agency right.
Eli played pretty well from 2012-2017. Reese was just downright bad at getting the right OL and players around him. They went to the playoffs one time during that span.
The Giants have never given a contract over 100M, let alone 100M in guarantees. Based on that alone makes it the biggest financial decision the team has ever made.
Btw christian, such an abhsmal ending to our most hated rival. But that’s why they’re currently 15-3..Still, going from 4 to 10 wins ith a great new staff who did wonders with no money is nothing short of stupendous..
It will be nice to see Schoen finally get the chance to start from “scratch” so to speak and with money to work with..
My PRIORITY as a fan? Get game-changing linebackers, arguably our biggest present needs..
And if they get it wrong, it’s obviously a franchise wrecking move. If they get it right it’s a franchise defining move. Huge stakes and huge dollars — I vote true.
And games like last night are why I give pause to any numbers over 2 years and higher than the franchise tag.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
He agent will be on hte phone with Carolina, the crappy Jets, and others who will pay for a young, mobile, playoff QB. I'm not paying him if he wants top 5 QB money. If its reasonable, which I would put in the $30M-35M range in todays market, then ok. Alsoo the other side is does DJ want to be here any more? Free markets go both ways. Maybe Carolina is able to pay him less because he wants to go home
We made a ton of excuses for Eli throughout the year for having a horrific OL and receivers coming up short in big games. Engram making game changing drops, etc.
Last nights game was a team disaster. Doesn’t change the fact that Jones is an ascending player with Daboll, second year of the offense with some better players, he should be playing more like colts and Vikings.
But he’s going to have some poor outings. And the team is going to have bad games. Goal is to get some better fucking talent so that we can compete against the very best in the NFC, two of which unfortunately are in our division right now.
He was part of the problem on the pick. I warned of the Eagles having two weeks to prepare for the quick passing game last week and that was part of it as well.
The last component was our WR's were also starting to get more credit as good players. They were solid against the right matchup. Against a better D team and without a good running game they showed vulnerability.
This is where a elite WR can help to solve that along with a better 2 and solid 3 in those tough situations. Some of our WR's may fill the 2 or 3 role or even 4th option. The staff has to figure that out.
The decision on whether to extend Jones or not is going to be the most important decision since drafting Eli. It’s a huge decision and one that I don’t know if they do or not. I think Schoen will have a number in place, that he feels Jones is worth.
If Jones doesn’t agree to that number, I think they let him walk. Spotrac has Jones market value at 25M. 3 years, 76 million. I think the Giants start there.
I think if Jones agents try and get him in that top 10, 40M range, i truly believe the Giants let him walk.
But dependent on options as a whole and on the plan in either direction. I don’t believe in Jones as a long term franchise guy especially once his wheels slow down, but there’s no immediate alternative with giving a short term guarantee next couple years and monitoring draft options for future franchise guy. I’m fine with getting his roster better and moving on with an aggressive move for a young QB in another 2-3-4 years. There’s some real intriguing options coming out of college in coming years.
But this is not an all or nothing situation. The Giants can’t bid against themselves. Are we sure Jones is going to have a big market or will teams look at him as a product of Daboll?
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
The Giants can sign Jones as long as they can easily get out of the contract once a better option comes along. I think that’s the most likely scenario. Jones is back, but not with a contract that makes him the clear cut franchise guy for the next 5 seasons.
What did Daboll say after the Vikings game? “Jones played good.” I expect both sides to play hard ball.
He was part of the problem on the pick. I warned of the Eagles having two weeks to prepare for the quick passing game last week and that was part of it as well.
The last component was our WR's were also starting to get more credit as good players. They were solid against the right matchup. Against a better D team and without a good running game they showed vulnerability.
This is where an elite WR can help to solve that along with a better 2 and solid 3 in those tough situations. Some of our WR's may fill the 2 or 3 role or even 4th option. The staff has to figure that out.
Pick was on Jones. But again, picks happen. Guy isn’t going to be able to play close to perfect football in every game, which he did against Colts and Vikes. The key is being able to play like that for 11-12 games in a 17 game season, which I believe he certainly can with Schoen and Daboll leading the way.
are all lacking quality talent. (In no particular order).
Even with DL/LW back I'd add rotation DT to that list too.
It's amazing what they did with the injuries they had. This year was fun, even if it ended miserably.
They have a lot of juggling to do with the resources they have - this is when we will see what Schoen is made of with his first full offseason ahead of him.
No doubt Jones will need to beat the Eagles and Cowboys
And games like last night are why I give pause to any numbers over 2 years and higher than the franchise tag.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
And no GM is ignoring the previous three years, and using mostly a stretch against the Vikings and Colts to hand a QB $40 million.
Yes nobody was good for the Giants yesterday. That includes Jones though. Yes he was under pressure often, but there were more miscues than just the pick. The play to Slayton that should have been PI was under thrown. There were other off target throws. Running out of bounds on 2nd and 1 for a 5 yard loss. There were maybe two players that we’re good last night and they were both running backs
Ryan Tannehill signed a 4/118M (29 AAV) contract with 62M guaranteed that covered 2020-2023.
Cap adjusted 4/140M (35AAV) with 70M guaranteed, that covered 2023-2026 — it would be huge discount comparatively. If Jones signs that type of extension he’s conceding he’s a mid pack QB.
I don’t agree that resigning Jones is on that level
If we overpay him, we trade him 2 years from now and take the cap hit from the unamortized bonus. No one wants that to happen, but it’s not franchise altering.
Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
I don’t think it is anywhere in the stratosphere of being the slam dunk you are thinking. Hell, Jones’ own comments should give you some pause before declaring this as an absolute. There is a chance that you are completely kind sided by their decision. But you shouldn’t be.
Also, I will bet any amount of money you want that if they do sign him, it’s not for $40M. No fucking chance. Get that number out of your head right now
And for what it’s worth (probably nothing) Eli went 10-21 against Eagles and 13-17 against Dallas for his career. And Eli was easily the better quarterback than what those teams had during that span.
The bigger factor during his career were that Dallas and Philly simply had better rosters, always, on average throughout those seasons. We have always lost to them for nearly 20 years now. Schoen has to help turn that around and it includes every position, not just Jones.
making a acknowledgement that the Giants still have a LOS issue. After that the most important decision becomes very clear.
Then you can move on to Jones.
If there was someone in the draft that you thought was a special QB like EA did for Eli and you are also in position or can get into position like EA had then this topic could have more merit imv.
Maybe go back home to Carolina.
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
If I'm DJs team, I'm strongly considering Carolina.
Cheaper to live here in Charlotte than NY/NJ. Family and friends can come to games. Better chance at winning the division with the Saints, Falcons and Bucs all being in shambles
We were all impressed with his performance against Minny. If we improve the O-line and get him 2 receivers who can get open and catch the ball then I think we’ll see results more like we did for the Vikings and Colts.
Maybe go back home to Carolina.
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
If I'm DJs team, I'm strongly considering Carolina.
Cheaper to live here in Charlotte than NY/NJ. Family and friends can come to games. Better chance at winning the division with the Saints, Falcons and Bucs all being in shambles
I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
But this is not an all or nothing situation. The Giants can’t bid against themselves. Are we sure Jones is going to have a big market or will teams look at him as a product of Daboll?
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
The Giants can sign Jones as long as they can easily get out of the contract once a better option comes along. I think that’s the most likely scenario. Jones is back, but not with a contract that makes him the clear cut franchise guy for the next 5 seasons.
What did Daboll say after the Vikings game? “Jones played good.” I expect both sides to play hard ball.
Lastly, are we sure Jones even wants to be back?
I still have Jones as a middling quarterback who has shown improvement. But last week you had to keep your head down, as the reaction on here to his very good game against the Vikings's poor defense was as if he's the best quarterback in the league.
Here's the rub: Schoen and Daboll are here to build a team that can win the Superbowl, not just achieve a good regular season record. The latter you can attain by beating up on weaker teams in the league and going 50-50 against the better ones. But to be a proper contender in the postseason, you need much more, and that includes from your quarterback.
If they re-sign Jones, then okay, I trust Schoen's judgment, but I would also be interested to see them drafting a quarterback mid-round if they think they see one with a high ceiling.
making a acknowledgement that the Giants still have a LOS issue. After that the most important decision becomes very clear.
What’s this acknowledgment you want them to make? Do you want Schoen to go on mic and say the lines suck?
His actions have shown he gets the lines needed investments. He spent 2 top 10 picks on them last year. He drafted 3 offensive lineman, the only substantive free agent contract he gave out was to a guard.
Honestly, what is the literal thing you want him to do?
I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
Uh, this was discussed after the FIRST Minnesota game. The second game was just an extension of the that.
Jones threw for 230 yards or more 3X this year: two against the dreadful Vikings and the other against the other pass defense sieve - the Lions.
True, because extending may limit your ability to move on IF another, better, prospect is within reach. Extending may limit your ability to get within reach (DJ good enough to win enough to hurt the draft position).
False, because they can punt the decision and tag him, retaining him for another year.
Unable to assess from our seats, because we don't know if a moderate bridge contract (it won't be a cheap bridge) which allows wiggle room in a year or two is an option. Plus, we don't know if the coaches are really agonizing over the decision the way we are. They might be sold, or they might be dead set against.
True, because extending may limit your ability to move on IF another, better, prospect is within reach. Extending may limit your ability to get within reach (DJ good enough to win enough to hurt the draft position).
False, because they can punt the decision and tag him, retaining him for another year.
Unable to assess from our seats, because we don't know if a moderate bridge contract (it won't be a cheap bridge) which allows wiggle room in a year or two is an option. Plus, we don't know if the coaches are really agonizing over the decision the way we are. They might be sold, or they might be dead set against.
making a acknowledgement that the Giants still have a LOS issue. After that the most important decision becomes very clear.
What’s this acknowledgment you want them to make? Do you want Schoen to go on mic and say the lines suck?
His actions have shown he gets the lines needed investments. He spent 2 top 10 picks on them last year. He drafted 3 offensive lineman, the only substantive free agent contract he gave out was to a guard.
Honestly, what is the literal thing you want him to do?
I want him to make a honest evaluation of all players on the OL/front 7. Then make a decision based on facts and not on emotions or hope.
Example; if Neal has very real concerns as a RT then make the hard decision to bring in good competition. I'm not suggesting Neal can't play here. Just that JS has to make the hard decision if it needs to be made.
Do this across your OL and front 7. Acknowledge even if you think you have a solution or invested a high asset to acquire a existing player. Don't hide from the truth or bet on hope.
Otherwise we will be in the same position again imv.
I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
I’ll bet eleven billion dollars that isn’t happening.
Bringing in good RT competition this offseason. They spent a top 10 pick on RT last year, Neal is the right tackle next year. There’s too many other holes to fill and they’ve put a lot of resources into the line in recent years. They’ll look to improve at center or one of the guard spots but they’ll spend most of the resources on the DL, LB and skill positions. Look at how much faster the Eagles looked than the Giants.
Would suggest putting in this current regime of Schoen/Daboll
column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Bringing in good RT competition this offseason. They spent a top 10 pick on RT last year, Neal is the right tackle next year. There’s too many other holes to fill and they’ve put a lot of resources into the line in recent years. They’ll look to improve at center or one of the guard spots but they’ll spend most of the resources on the DL, LB and skill positions. Look at how much faster the Eagles looked than the Giants.
If they feel he will make a big jump that is fine. If they have some very real concerns it would be malpractice not to bring in better competition. All I would want is a honest evaluation. I am not saying Neal cant be good here which I said above. The staff works with him everyday. I just see gamedays. I like the player a lot as a individual and hope it works out.
if we can't sign Jones to a team friendly deal I'd much rather just tag him and see what he can do next year. Much less risk than handing him a 4 year/$35M per deal.
Do this across your OL and front 7. Acknowledge even if you think you have a solution or invested a high asset to acquire a existing player. Don't hide from the truth or bet on hope.
Those are just words. What is it you want him to literally do?
Bringing in good RT competition this offseason. They spent a top 10 pick on RT last year, Neal is the right tackle next year. There’s too many other holes to fill and they’ve put a lot of resources into the line in recent years. They’ll look to improve at center or one of the guard spots but they’ll spend most of the resources on the DL, LB and skill positions. Look at how much faster the Eagles looked than the Giants.
If they feel he will make a big jump that is fine. If they have some very real concerns it would be malpractice not to bring in better competition. All I would want is a honest evaluation. I am not saying Neal cant be good here which I said above. The staff works with him everyday. I just see gamedays. I like the player a lot as a individual and hope it works out.
But you can’t have 100 players and $500 million salary cap. With the holes this team has at C, MLB, DE, CB, WR, DT depth it would be a beyond a poor allocation of resources to bring in RT competition. They have the oline depth, they just need one starter added on the interior and hope guys like Ezedu can take a jump up.
Do this across your OL and front 7. Acknowledge even if you think you have a solution or invested a high asset to acquire a existing player. Don't hide from the truth or bet on hope.
Those are just words. What is it you want him to literally do?
The franchise tender window is February
I said the same thing for months. Negotiate and find a deal that you can get out of in 2-3 years. If it gets outside that by very much I tag him and revaluate when he receives offers.
Not sure what is just words. It simple leadership acknowledging truth and having the self awareness and courage to act on it whatever that truth is.
The collective set of decisions this year in the aggregate...
column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
...2022 was a fun ride.
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
During which they went what? 4-6-1?
It was still a good year. Just because we aren't "there yet" doesn't mean it wasn't a good year, or that we aren't improving. Teams get better, they just don't go from winning 4 games to winning the SB
I would sign Danny for 4 years at 25 per for 100 Million .I'm not going to 30 or 35 or 40 not happening. It would be rough to let him walk but I hold my ground. Saquon I would wait till draft to see if Robinson drops to us.If not I would do a deal that I could move if I had too if we are signing him.
I said the same thing for months. Negotiate and find a deal that you can get out of in 2-3 years. If it gets outside that by very much I tag him and revaluate when he receives offers.
Not sure what is just words. It simple leadership acknowledging truth and having the self awareness and courage to act on it whatever that truth is.
You said the “the most important decisions become clear” after this magical acknowledgment.
So what you’re saying is Schoen needs to internally acknowledge the lines need work, only then can he pursue a new contract with Jones?
What if Schoen decides he likes the players on his roster right now and doesn’t want to change them?
And for what it’s worth (probably nothing) Eli went 10-21 against Eagles and 13-17 against Dallas for his career. And Eli was easily the better quarterback than what those teams had during that span.
The bigger factor during his career were that Dallas and Philly simply had better rosters, always, on average throughout those seasons. We have always lost to them for nearly 20 years now. Schoen has to help turn that around and it includes every position, not just Jones.
For the love of God, can you please stop making shit up?
If the Giants have always lost to Dallas and Philly for the past 20 years, can you explain how we were 20-19 against them between 2003-2012? That's the first half of the past 20 years. It also includes 2003, the dumpster fire that led to Eli in the first place, and the Giants went 0-4 against Dallas and Philly that year. They were 20-15 against Dallas and Philadelphia from 2004-2012.
Are you even capable of using actual facts? Or is everything just make believe for you?
I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, that's what's going to happen. Schoen is going to get a fictional follow-up call to a previously fictional phone call.
And games like last night are why I give pause to any numbers over 2 years and higher than the franchise tag.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
And no GM is ignoring the previous three years, and using mostly a stretch against the Vikings and Colts to hand a QB $40 million.
Some GMs might but I think overall you're right. There have been several QBs who've had a few excellent games and show a few very good traits from time to time, but never became consistent enough to justify a massive salary. I can see GMs reasonably wondering if Jones is yet another.
You can just nonstop pour top resources into the line every year.
Sometimes you need to let things develop. Just look at the Eagles line.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
2003-12 look at the fronts. 2013-22 look at them now and compare to those two teams during this time.
About the simplest question to answer and I have been stating the cause of the destruction since I joined the board.
But good question to ask to make the point.....again.
Stick to your fictional phone calls, the great destruction, and a mystical offseason of clarity once a grand admission about the lines is finally declared.
So in normal human words is your answer to the question:
False, signing Jones isn’t the most important decision. Whether to continue to invest in offensive line and front seven on defense is more important. — ?
I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, that's what's going to happen. Schoen is going to get a fictional follow-up call to a previously fictional phone call.
Go back and read the transcript after Schoen's press conference. Then you will understand the "modernize" and the Parcells call I joked about. Details my friend.
Great question about 2003-'12 above.....and reinforcement my point. Good job.
Bill Parcells is going to call Schoen's office today and tell him to
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
is more important. That's where the gulf in class was
That’s a very defensible position. I imagine you think Philly has done well. What do you think about letting the offensive group develop and build chemistry like Philly did?
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
No, I think I am more like Bill Parcells and I want to remind Schoen to build up the OL/DL.
Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
Bringing in this GM and Coach was the most important decision since drafting Eli.
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
is more important. That's where the gulf in class was
This is overly simplistic. It was just as much in playmakers. They had two solid CBs, pass rushers up and down first and second levels on defense, and two Pro Bowl caliber WRs and RB depth three deep.
Sometimes you need to let things develop. Just look at the Eagles line.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
Agree, he did not help himself at all - but that is more about years and gtd money. Bad outing.
I think we needed more out of the HC, DC and OC, too(last night only). That was some smelly mess on both sides of the ball
You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
LoS, chick is Googs dupe.
Right. And let me guess, you're Inspector Clouseau?
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
Still a lot to do on Offense and Defense.
Interior OL could use more investment and doesn't always have to be Day 1&2 picks. Our rookie class was decimated with injuries and Neal will most certainly develop more in Yr 2.
Hopefully Schoen keeps churning the roster and doesn't get caught up in thinking there are that many core players here and he needs to open up checkbook for everybody.
Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
What makes you think that isn’t in progress here? They added three draftees and two short term FA fits. We can’t keep spending high (1st/2nd round) draft capital on OL year after year. Guys have to be given a chance and evaluated. We are only at Year one of a new regime who inherited a cap and roster mess. Some talents yes, but overall a mess of a cap and poor depth everywhere.
Dunk, you talk a lot of shit and are generally just an asshole, all of the time.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
“All young players do have to develop. I do think he’s developed. Is he going to be our long term left tackle? We don’t know that, but if you look at him compared to a lot of left tackles around the National Football League, there’s a bunch of comparables around,” general manager Jerry Reese said on Tues “I do think that he gets pointed out unfairly a little bit at times,” Reese said. “Ereck is a big boy and there’s been guys that have been picked higher than him in the offensive line who have struggled. Different positions struggle at different times and I do think he’s working hard and I do think he’s improving and we’ll continue to support him and hopefully he’ll continue to improve and be a good player.”
Yup, wait on players not up to snuff because of draft position.
It does not matter where they are picked. What matters is results.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I never said that they have to be high picks. I just saw the results this year. That is for JS to evaluate. I just want it to be a honest and accurate one and not based on hope or because assets were already committed. If he is comfortable then the results should show better soon. If not take action.
...is our two best players are unrestricted and probably calling for expensive deals.
How the Giants will handle this is important because we aren't a upper echelon team. They don't want to get hamstrung by investing in both guys while limiting how the rest of the team can be built.
I think Jones is the more important piece. I'd like to get him signed to a deal that works for both sides in the 3-4 year range, while keeping their options open to drafting another QB if they see it (like KC did with Alex Smith and Mahomes).
Barkley is a RB and I'd be very careful with handing out money to him on second contract cosidering the beating NFL running backs take and his injury history. I just feel the draft or free agency could get a back very similar in production at a lower cost, esp if you improve the interior OL (and overall general offensive personnel).
Bottom line - gotta trust the new regime to plot our course and I am pretty sure they aren't going to subject to the ebb and flow that this message board does with players from week to week!
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
I like your post and agree about SB. It may depend how JS can work the financial aspect but I would not want a big investment in him if it hamstrings addressing other critical areas.
Dunk, you talk a lot of shit and are generally just an asshole, all of the time.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Negative That's just someone who likes posting Reese pictures and has a agenda protecting him at all costs. I'm just someone who understands a future HOF coach.
What helped with coming to part of my thoughts is when Pugh was drafted Gilbride spilled the beans that he was so happy as they had been telling the front office for a while to get some OL in here. That was telling at Gilbride was the first to be scapegoated at season's end. It was not TC as you have recently suggested. Another of many marks you miss.
What is interesting in addition to Reese backing Flowers posted above McAdoo also was on the message but certainly liked throwing Eli under the bus (or Clock for you). After being fired McAdoo then said Flowers can't play left tackle and I even think right as well. HC's have to tell the truth.
TC told the truth to Ernie and he had Wellington's back early. I am sure you recognize how much Welly loved TC right? He had waited for him for over ten years. Sure, TC would not have a big say......okay.
The truth. Isn't this what you asked from posters? I'm not seeing much truth from you tbh.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
That’s a lot of words, when it’s a true or false question.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
after so many games in which Jones definitely showed improvement over his previous seasons but I feel like we're in a similar same spot as we were at the beginning of last season: is there enough evidence yet to show that he's the answer, or is signing him long-term still based mostly on faith?
That’s a lot of words, when it’s a true or false question.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
Yes the foundation of the fronts were set and it proved to be a good assessment. Then you build outside. They also still did add some OL. Boothe was a key waiver wire pickup.
Ready for the truth? Big men should have the ability to reevaluate a position. You have called quite a few little men so I will make a assumption (which I don't like) and assume you are one. Reese pictures or the truth. Again you decide. Unless of course you believed the OL of 2011 was going to be around. I mean you did suggest last week that you wished Reese didn't draft OL and doubled down on more WR's during the great destruction (2013-17). True right?
According to your timeline, when Coughlin was in charge of the draft, the Giants neglected the offensive line. When the players from the Super Bowl runs aged and injuried out — the Giants were left with no developmental talent. This is your timeline and your set of facts dude. Own it and accept it amigo.
According to your timeline, when Coughlin was in charge of the draft, the Giants neglected the offensive line. When the players from the Super Bowl runs aged and injuried out — the Giants were left with no developmental talent. This is your timeline and your set of facts dude. Own it and accept it amigo.
Negative. What I said when TC came in it became the highest priority. Controlling the LOS. The moves to follow show this. Go back and listen to his intro. Wellington even said it was music to his ears. That's my truth.
Reese did great work in carrying his part of it out. As did Dave. This after EA left.
Now later Reese......what a disaster that backend part of his tenure. Sad with a two time SB MVP QB who was a pocket passer. This is also my truth.
You have yours. History will decide who told it correctly.
Hope you don't slam TC and Eli when they go the HOF. I will wish Reese good luck if he gets another chance but seems odd he has not been hired already......or not.
My guess is Coughlin and Reese collaborated well in the beginning. Reese had an excellent record as a college scouting director.
Coughlin was a true disciple of the Erhardt-Perkins approach, and as a former WR coach understood the best way to open up the vertical game was play action and putting his offense in favorable down and distances. But he also wanted top pedigree WRs and spent cap and draft capital to put together that group.
The Giants had two really big strokes of luck on the offensive line: David Diehl proved to be a competent LT, and Rich Seubert recovered from his injury. The midrange investment of O’Hara, Boothe, and Baas worked out well for a short period. The big investment in McKenzie worked out perfectly.
As a product of low draft investment and bad luck with injuries, the offensive line fell off a cliff in 2013. Coughlin and Reese are both to blame.
Keep in mind Snee, Baas, and Beatty were all effectively shot by the age of 30. That’s bad luck. But they didn’t invest in the line in any significant way during the glory years.
By the time they got serious in investing, Mara was vocally creating rifts between the staff and management. There were clear power struggles, and during that period of time they spent a bunch of premium picks on lineman who failed.
First though lets not educate me on TC. Simple truth.
Agree some power struggles which TC ultimately lost. That is truth. TC surely contributed to it. Truth. Now you said some time ago that Reese should have been sent away with TC. That's not the truth from you but agree he should have been gone with TC.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
Last night may have been the worst possible outcome re: Jones
After Indy and last night, I think most people were finally more or less in sync on bringing Jones back. He was our QB and showed he can win.
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
Last week, some were ready to go up to $40M if that's what got it done and many who were not on board previously, were at least resigned to the fact that Jones would likely be back and likely be paid big time. Last night, though, allowed questions to creep back to the forefront because this was a good D and he did nothing.
Would I still like him back? Yes. That hasn't changed. But, my initial thoughts that I wouldn't pay him $35M+ returned. I'm not sure how low I think he should get, but I know that's my ceiling and I think it's more than generous.
The real question is what are Schoen's floor and ceiling for Jones.
That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
What the flying fuck are you continuing to babble about? “Or more Reese picks”? Wtf? This regime had two 1st round picks in the first draft. What positions did they draft? Yep, that’s right, OL and DL. Trenches.
They didn't ignore it. They just whiffed on virtually every pick and FA after 2011. They spent high picks on Hernandez, Richburg, and FLowers in consecutive years. They all sucked. They spent money on tons of FAs who all sucked.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
No, no little pants on fire.
You made up something I didn’t say, and don’t have the integrity to admit. That makes you a liar.
I challenged you on this thread to accept the logical inferences you were making, based on timing and Coughlin’s role. You said it not me.
I’m just gonna start calling you The Track, because I love running circles around you.
Until next time indeed!
RE: Last night may have been the worst possible outcome re: Jones
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
That's where I was, too. I know Philly has a high-end D, but a high-end QB will figure out more than DJ did last. So, I expected a much better effort.
Yet, he did not look the franchise QB part at all. That robotic nature to his game crept back in. And that's disappointing because it seemed - or it was hoped - the light finally went on for good the last few weeks.
Seen you like to come on strong with posters. Some good stuff from you but some not the case.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
RE: I'm tired of the notion that they ignored the OL
They didn't ignore it. They just whiffed on virtually every pick and FA after 2011. They spent high picks on Hernandez, Richburg, and FLowers in consecutive years. They all sucked. They spent money on tons of FAs who all sucked.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
The Reese/Coughlin/Gettleman group hit on all the OL moves for a long period of time. It was a hell of a run. And you can't under appreciate the job Pat Flaherty did as well.
Seen you like to come on strong with posters. Some good stuff from you but some not the case.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
Yes, please save the clown talk for someone else or yourself! We're here to discuss fictional phone calls between Schoen and Parcells, BBS. Nothing else will be tolerated.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
That hampered the latter part of Eli's career.
He will get a team friendly contract that allows Giants to dump him if he regresses in future years.
I would be surprised if they let him go or another team offered him big money
It will be nice to see Schoen finally get the chance to start from “scratch” so to speak and with money to work with..
My PRIORITY as a fan? Get game-changing linebackers, arguably our biggest present needs..
Sorry to miller here.
Last I checked he wasn’t playing those teams by himself, coaching or signing the players he is playing with.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
That hampered the latter part of Eli's career.
Start drafting better which is why we are so talent poor.
Last nights game was a team disaster. Doesn’t change the fact that Jones is an ascending player with Daboll, second year of the offense with some better players, he should be playing more like colts and Vikings.
But he’s going to have some poor outings. And the team is going to have bad games. Goal is to get some better fucking talent so that we can compete against the very best in the NFC, two of which unfortunately are in our division right now.
The last component was our WR's were also starting to get more credit as good players. They were solid against the right matchup. Against a better D team and without a good running game they showed vulnerability.
This is where a elite WR can help to solve that along with a better 2 and solid 3 in those tough situations. Some of our WR's may fill the 2 or 3 role or even 4th option. The staff has to figure that out.
The decision on whether to extend Jones or not is going to be the most important decision since drafting Eli. It’s a huge decision and one that I don’t know if they do or not. I think Schoen will have a number in place, that he feels Jones is worth.
If Jones doesn’t agree to that number, I think they let him walk. Spotrac has Jones market value at 25M. 3 years, 76 million. I think the Giants start there.
I think if Jones agents try and get him in that top 10, 40M range, i truly believe the Giants let him walk.
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
The Giants can sign Jones as long as they can easily get out of the contract once a better option comes along. I think that’s the most likely scenario. Jones is back, but not with a contract that makes him the clear cut franchise guy for the next 5 seasons.
What did Daboll say after the Vikings game? “Jones played good.” I expect both sides to play hard ball.
Lastly, are we sure Jones even wants to be back?
The last component was our WR's were also starting to get more credit as good players. They were solid against the right matchup. Against a better D team and without a good running game they showed vulnerability.
This is where an elite WR can help to solve that along with a better 2 and solid 3 in those tough situations. Some of our WR's may fill the 2 or 3 role or even 4th option. The staff has to figure that out.
Pick was on Jones. But again, picks happen. Guy isn’t going to be able to play close to perfect football in every game, which he did against Colts and Vikes. The key is being able to play like that for 11-12 games in a 17 game season, which I believe he certainly can with Schoen and Daboll leading the way.
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
Even with DL/LW back I'd add rotation DT to that list too.
It's amazing what they did with the injuries they had. This year was fun, even if it ended miserably.
They have a lot of juggling to do with the resources they have - this is when we will see what Schoen is made of with his first full offseason ahead of him.
Let's give Schoen and Daboll a year to clear cap, a 2nd year to build team....before we are mandating they beat the best teams in the NFC.
Quote:
And games like last night are why I give pause to any numbers over 2 years and higher than the franchise tag.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
And no GM is ignoring the previous three years, and using mostly a stretch against the Vikings and Colts to hand a QB $40 million.
Yes nobody was good for the Giants yesterday. That includes Jones though. Yes he was under pressure often, but there were more miscues than just the pick. The play to Slayton that should have been PI was under thrown. There were other off target throws. Running out of bounds on 2nd and 1 for a 5 yard loss. There were maybe two players that we’re good last night and they were both running backs
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
Hey. That’s perfectly fine and within his right and opens up a lot of creative paths for Giants to explore
Cap adjusted 4/140M (35AAV) with 70M guaranteed, that covered 2023-2026 — it would be huge discount comparatively. If Jones signs that type of extension he’s conceding he’s a mid pack QB.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
I don’t think it is anywhere in the stratosphere of being the slam dunk you are thinking. Hell, Jones’ own comments should give you some pause before declaring this as an absolute. There is a chance that you are completely kind sided by their decision. But you shouldn’t be.
Also, I will bet any amount of money you want that if they do sign him, it’s not for $40M. No fucking chance. Get that number out of your head right now
The bigger factor during his career were that Dallas and Philly simply had better rosters, always, on average throughout those seasons. We have always lost to them for nearly 20 years now. Schoen has to help turn that around and it includes every position, not just Jones.
This Jones decision is very important as well but not at that heightened level.
Then you can move on to Jones.
If there was someone in the draft that you thought was a special QB like EA did for Eli and you are also in position or can get into position like EA had then this topic could have more merit imv.
This Jones decision is very important as well but not at that heightened level.
I should read the OP better, so my answer is False, not No. but my reasoning stands.
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
If I'm DJs team, I'm strongly considering Carolina.
Cheaper to live here in Charlotte than NY/NJ. Family and friends can come to games. Better chance at winning the division with the Saints, Falcons and Bucs all being in shambles
Quote:
Maybe go back home to Carolina.
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
If I'm DJs team, I'm strongly considering Carolina.
Cheaper to live here in Charlotte than NY/NJ. Family and friends can come to games. Better chance at winning the division with the Saints, Falcons and Bucs all being in shambles
And much less pressure.
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
The Giants can sign Jones as long as they can easily get out of the contract once a better option comes along. I think that’s the most likely scenario. Jones is back, but not with a contract that makes him the clear cut franchise guy for the next 5 seasons.
What did Daboll say after the Vikings game? “Jones played good.” I expect both sides to play hard ball.
Lastly, are we sure Jones even wants to be back?
I still have Jones as a middling quarterback who has shown improvement. But last week you had to keep your head down, as the reaction on here to his very good game against the Vikings's poor defense was as if he's the best quarterback in the league.
Here's the rub: Schoen and Daboll are here to build a team that can win the Superbowl, not just achieve a good regular season record. The latter you can attain by beating up on weaker teams in the league and going 50-50 against the better ones. But to be a proper contender in the postseason, you need much more, and that includes from your quarterback.
If they re-sign Jones, then okay, I trust Schoen's judgment, but I would also be interested to see them drafting a quarterback mid-round if they think they see one with a high ceiling.
What’s this acknowledgment you want them to make? Do you want Schoen to go on mic and say the lines suck?
His actions have shown he gets the lines needed investments. He spent 2 top 10 picks on them last year. He drafted 3 offensive lineman, the only substantive free agent contract he gave out was to a guard.
Honestly, what is the literal thing you want him to do?
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
Greg from LI got pounded for bringing up the Vikings defense last week. Mike White & Mac Jones also had huge passing games against the Vikings. Greg looks to be right.
I bolded that because it’s an important point in assessing his value.
Uh, this was discussed after the FIRST Minnesota game. The second game was just an extension of the that.
Jones threw for 230 yards or more 3X this year: two against the dreadful Vikings and the other against the other pass defense sieve - the Lions.
It's the most important decision since we drafted Jones.
all at the same time.
True, because extending may limit your ability to move on IF another, better, prospect is within reach. Extending may limit your ability to get within reach (DJ good enough to win enough to hurt the draft position).
False, because they can punt the decision and tag him, retaining him for another year.
Unable to assess from our seats, because we don't know if a moderate bridge contract (it won't be a cheap bridge) which allows wiggle room in a year or two is an option. Plus, we don't know if the coaches are really agonizing over the decision the way we are. They might be sold, or they might be dead set against.
all at the same time.
True, because extending may limit your ability to move on IF another, better, prospect is within reach. Extending may limit your ability to get within reach (DJ good enough to win enough to hurt the draft position).
False, because they can punt the decision and tag him, retaining him for another year.
Unable to assess from our seats, because we don't know if a moderate bridge contract (it won't be a cheap bridge) which allows wiggle room in a year or two is an option. Plus, we don't know if the coaches are really agonizing over the decision the way we are. They might be sold, or they might be dead set against.
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making a acknowledgement that the Giants still have a LOS issue. After that the most important decision becomes very clear.
What’s this acknowledgment you want them to make? Do you want Schoen to go on mic and say the lines suck?
His actions have shown he gets the lines needed investments. He spent 2 top 10 picks on them last year. He drafted 3 offensive lineman, the only substantive free agent contract he gave out was to a guard.
Honestly, what is the literal thing you want him to do?
I want him to make a honest evaluation of all players on the OL/front 7. Then make a decision based on facts and not on emotions or hope.
Example; if Neal has very real concerns as a RT then make the hard decision to bring in good competition. I'm not suggesting Neal can't play here. Just that JS has to make the hard decision if it needs to be made.
Do this across your OL and front 7. Acknowledge even if you think you have a solution or invested a high asset to acquire a existing player. Don't hide from the truth or bet on hope.
Otherwise we will be in the same position again imv.
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I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
I’ll bet eleven billion dollars that isn’t happening.
It's the most important decision since we drafted Jones.
Touché.
To extend DJ mutli-years, one year or not at all is way the hell up there though.
If they feel he will make a big jump that is fine. If they have some very real concerns it would be malpractice not to bring in better competition. All I would want is a honest evaluation. I am not saying Neal cant be good here which I said above. The staff works with him everyday. I just see gamedays. I like the player a lot as a individual and hope it works out.
Those are just words. What is it you want him to literally do?
The franchise tender window is February
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
Do you want him to go on TV and say the line sucks, before he decides what to do with Daniel Jones?
Everyone thinks this is in the Giants corner to decide I think Jones might just walk and go play elsewhere.
The Giants have the tag if necessary. DJ doesn't have full autonomy in the decision even if he would otherwise have a robust market as a free agent.
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Bringing in good RT competition this offseason. They spent a top 10 pick on RT last year, Neal is the right tackle next year. There’s too many other holes to fill and they’ve put a lot of resources into the line in recent years. They’ll look to improve at center or one of the guard spots but they’ll spend most of the resources on the DL, LB and skill positions. Look at how much faster the Eagles looked than the Giants.
If they feel he will make a big jump that is fine. If they have some very real concerns it would be malpractice not to bring in better competition. All I would want is a honest evaluation. I am not saying Neal cant be good here which I said above. The staff works with him everyday. I just see gamedays. I like the player a lot as a individual and hope it works out.
But you can’t have 100 players and $500 million salary cap. With the holes this team has at C, MLB, DE, CB, WR, DT depth it would be a beyond a poor allocation of resources to bring in RT competition. They have the oline depth, they just need one starter added on the interior and hope guys like Ezedu can take a jump up.
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Do this across your OL and front 7. Acknowledge even if you think you have a solution or invested a high asset to acquire a existing player. Don't hide from the truth or bet on hope.
Those are just words. What is it you want him to literally do?
The franchise tender window is February
I said the same thing for months. Negotiate and find a deal that you can get out of in 2-3 years. If it gets outside that by very much I tag him and revaluate when he receives offers.
Not sure what is just words. It simple leadership acknowledging truth and having the self awareness and courage to act on it whatever that truth is.
Get them right, and perhaps our trajectory will be similar to where we were in 1985. Get them wrong, and perhaps it will be similar to 1994.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
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...2022 was a fun ride.
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
During which they went what? 4-6-1?
It was still a good year. Just because we aren't "there yet" doesn't mean it wasn't a good year, or that we aren't improving. Teams get better, they just don't go from winning 4 games to winning the SB
Not sure what is just words. It simple leadership acknowledging truth and having the self awareness and courage to act on it whatever that truth is.
You said the “the most important decisions become clear” after this magical acknowledgment.
So what you’re saying is Schoen needs to internally acknowledge the lines need work, only then can he pursue a new contract with Jones?
What if Schoen decides he likes the players on his roster right now and doesn’t want to change them?
The bigger factor during his career were that Dallas and Philly simply had better rosters, always, on average throughout those seasons. We have always lost to them for nearly 20 years now. Schoen has to help turn that around and it includes every position, not just Jones.
For the love of God, can you please stop making shit up?
If the Giants have always lost to Dallas and Philly for the past 20 years, can you explain how we were 20-19 against them between 2003-2012? That's the first half of the past 20 years. It also includes 2003, the dumpster fire that led to Eli in the first place, and the Giants went 0-4 against Dallas and Philly that year. They were 20-15 against Dallas and Philadelphia from 2004-2012.
Are you even capable of using actual facts? Or is everything just make believe for you?
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I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, that's what's going to happen. Schoen is going to get a fictional follow-up call to a previously fictional phone call.
About the simplest question to answer and I have been stating the cause of the destruction since I joined the board.
But good question to ask to make the point.....again.
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In comment 16007389 ajr2456 said:
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And games like last night are why I give pause to any numbers over 2 years and higher than the franchise tag.
No offense man but no general manager in the NFL watches that game last night and says yeah it’s on the QB. He made a bad throw on the pick. That’s on Jones. But the team was very overmatched. When a QB is pressured on nearly 70% of dropbacks, you aren’t going to have a good performance. He didn’t play well obviously. Doesn’t change the fact that almost nobody can perform at a high level when nobody is open and you have no time to throw.
And no, this isn’t “making an excuse” for Jones and “oh it’s never on Jones then?” It’s just reality of the situation. They are going to pay him for 3-4 seasons. Getting destroyed by the eagles who are the best team in football and top 3 in offense and defense is not going to change Schoen’s opinion of Daniel Jones.
And no GM is ignoring the previous three years, and using mostly a stretch against the Vikings and Colts to hand a QB $40 million.
Some GMs might but I think overall you're right. There have been several QBs who've had a few excellent games and show a few very good traits from time to time, but never became consistent enough to justify a massive salary. I can see GMs reasonably wondering if Jones is yet another.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
About the simplest question to answer and I have been stating the cause of the destruction since I joined the board.
But good question to ask to make the point.....again.
Stick to your fictional phone calls, the great destruction, and a mystical offseason of clarity once a grand admission about the lines is finally declared.
False, signing Jones isn’t the most important decision. Whether to continue to invest in offensive line and front seven on defense is more important. — ?
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In comment 16007472 cosmicj said:
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I’m in your corner. The front 7 needs added talent. I suspect the Interior OL can be upgraded on the cheap, with certain young players improving, but the DL and line backing corps needs big time talent added. The weakness of the WR corps shouldn’t distract us from this.
I trust that Parcells will be placing a call to Schoen shortly. "I told you this division packs a wallop at the scrimmage lines. Yours need fixing. Then you modernize."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, that's what's going to happen. Schoen is going to get a fictional follow-up call to a previously fictional phone call.
Go back and read the transcript after Schoen's press conference. Then you will understand the "modernize" and the Parcells call I joked about. Details my friend.
Great question about 2003-'12 above.....and reinforcement my point. Good job.
Haha. When does Parcell also break it to Joe that Daboll should have run the ball 30 times last night...next week's call?
That’s a very defensible position. I imagine you think Philly has done well. What do you think about letting the offensive group develop and build chemistry like Philly did?
No, I think I am more like Bill Parcells and I want to remind Schoen to build up the OL/DL.
Bingo and it starts with acknowledgement and then following the truth for actions that need or don't need to happen.
Haha. When does Parcell also break it to Joe that Daboll should have run the ball 30 times last night...next week's call?
No, no. George Young will call from the grave to avail that wisdom.
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...2022 was a fun ride.
The Giants found a QB (an important decision to be sure, but an easy call).
Meaningful football after October, November, December.
During which they went what? 4-6-1?
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is more important. That's where the gulf in class was
Bingo and it starts with acknowledgement and then following the truth for actions that need or don't need to happen.
What's the acknowledge look like to you? How will we know that the acknowledgement has happened so we can track the subsequent following of the truth?
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Schoen is going to extend Jones, 3 or 4 years, likely anywhere between 30-40M. Team will continue to keep building through the draft and adding value adds in FA. Team is relatively healthy with draft capital and cap space.
They won 10 games including a playoff game and just aren’t there yet. Extending Jones is imperative to keep this moving in the right direction.
Cool, so no actual opinion on the topic of the thread?
Bringing in this GM and Coach was the most important decision since drafting Eli.
This is overly simplistic. It was just as much in playmakers. They had two solid CBs, pass rushers up and down first and second levels on defense, and two Pro Bowl caliber WRs and RB depth three deep.
Kelce was a 6th round pick, Dickerson could barely stay on the field at FSU and is now a pro bowler. Mailata was a 7th round pick who came from the international pathways program. Seumalo was a third round pick. They haven’t put a first round pick into the oline since Johnson a decade ago.
Bingo.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
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column. Hiring Daboll and Schoen was the most important decision since drafting Eli because they will need to decide if Jones is worth the money to re-sign. If they deem him the future, he will get paid. The next question is length and guaranteed money.
Jones didn't help himself last night with that 11+ QBR. I was hoping he could parlay last week's performance into something much better than last night. Yes, Philly is a better D, but we needed more from our QB last night in a bigger spot.
Agree, he did not help himself at all - but that is more about years and gtd money. Bad outing.
I think we needed more out of the HC, DC and OC, too(last night only). That was some smelly mess on both sides of the ball
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You remind me of NYGgolfer who reminded me of Googs. But your a college football player so no connection but none the less striking similarities. Haven't seen those two around in a bit. Glad you backfilled for them.
LoS, chick is Googs dupe.
Right. And let me guess, you're Inspector Clouseau?
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Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
This certainly a strong possibility and those positional groups are also big weak spots on the team.
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Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
Still a lot to do on Offense and Defense.
Interior OL could use more investment and doesn't always have to be Day 1&2 picks. Our rookie class was decimated with injuries and Neal will most certainly develop more in Yr 2.
Hopefully Schoen keeps churning the roster and doesn't get caught up in thinking there are that many core players here and he needs to open up checkbook for everybody.
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In comment 16007709 ajr2456 said:
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Is spending two top 10 picks on the oline in 3 years.
Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good myth.
The high water mark for the Coughlin era line consisted of a 5th round pick LT, UDFA at LG, converted guard at center on a cheap contract, a 2nd round pick at RG, and one high priced free agent at right tackle.
Not mention Accorsi spent 2 top 60 picks on linemen his entire tenure as GM.
The Eagles drafted a first round LT a few years ago who did not work out. They then replaced him with the LT that now is in the Pro Bowler.
Dickerson is not a underperformer from FSU. He was a top OL on a Bama team who won a NC.
His OL coach also came from Bama and Chip Kelly hired him where he still is today.
They drafted a center last year in round 2 to replace Kelce.
They plan ahead and move on when things are not right with a player.
They understand the critical importance of the OL and set a standard. Not hope for one.
This is what JS needs to do imv. Act on the truth. Not where someone was drafted. Hopefully the truth is the evaluation is correct. If not then have the courage to act on it.
Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
What makes you think that isn’t in progress here? They added three draftees and two short term FA fits. We can’t keep spending high (1st/2nd round) draft capital on OL year after year. Guys have to be given a chance and evaluated. We are only at Year one of a new regime who inherited a cap and roster mess. Some talents yes, but overall a mess of a cap and poor depth everywhere.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
Yup, wait on players not up to snuff because of draft position.
It does not matter where they are picked. What matters is results.
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Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
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In comment 16007766 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
That's it.
How the Giants will handle this is important because we aren't a upper echelon team. They don't want to get hamstrung by investing in both guys while limiting how the rest of the team can be built.
I think Jones is the more important piece. I'd like to get him signed to a deal that works for both sides in the 3-4 year range, while keeping their options open to drafting another QB if they see it (like KC did with Alex Smith and Mahomes).
Barkley is a RB and I'd be very careful with handing out money to him on second contract cosidering the beating NFL running backs take and his injury history. I just feel the draft or free agency could get a back very similar in production at a lower cost, esp if you improve the interior OL (and overall general offensive personnel).
Bottom line - gotta trust the new regime to plot our course and I am pretty sure they aren't going to subject to the ebb and flow that this message board does with players from week to week!
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In comment 16007797 christian said:
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In comment 16007766 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Oh TC fixed the OL. Arcossi was not a line of scrimmage guy. TC was hired so Ravens/Giants would not happen. It didn't. Nice GM but he needed a strong HC to tell the truth.
Why didn’t TC keep fixing the offensive line throughout his tenure as Giants head coach?
When did Ernie draft a lineman outside LT at a high pick? When did he make a big long term investment outside LT?
Two of the big decisions under TC. Snee 2nd round. McKenzie as FA RT year two. Just like he did in Jax.
Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
But to answer your question:
The Giants are 15-31 against the Eagles since 2000. That is awful.
The Giants are 20-26 against the Cowboys since 2000.
That is a combined 35-57 against them, which would be a 38% winning percentage.
So, yes, the Giants typically lose to these teams, and have been bullied by them most of the time since 2000. Are these facts not enough for you? Do you need more?
ryanmkeane: 62% = 100%.
Got it, thanks.
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
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Cool. So why did TC stop making good decisions to bolster the offensive line?
I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette.
You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.
Just so we’re clear:
From 2004 - 2006, Coughlin ran the drafts for Accorsi and the Giants picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
Then from 2007 - 2011, Coughlin ran the drafts for Reese and the Giants and picked one offensive lineman with a top 100 pick
(Coughlin wins his 2nd Super Bowl, and loses his power mysteriously)
Then from 2012 - 2015, Reese runs the drafts and the Giants picked 3 offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
I think we’ve identified the boogie man behind the great destruction! And it’s frost bitten old white guy!
Negative That's just someone who likes posting Reese pictures and has a agenda protecting him at all costs. I'm just someone who understands a future HOF coach.
What helped with coming to part of my thoughts is when Pugh was drafted Gilbride spilled the beans that he was so happy as they had been telling the front office for a while to get some OL in here. That was telling at Gilbride was the first to be scapegoated at season's end. It was not TC as you have recently suggested. Another of many marks you miss.
What is interesting in addition to Reese backing Flowers posted above McAdoo also was on the message but certainly liked throwing Eli under the bus (or Clock for you). After being fired McAdoo then said Flowers can't play left tackle and I even think right as well. HC's have to tell the truth.
TC told the truth to Ernie and he had Wellington's back early. I am sure you recognize how much Welly loved TC right? He had waited for him for over ten years. Sure, TC would not have a big say......okay.
The truth. Isn't this what you asked from posters? I'm not seeing much truth from you tbh.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
The answer is obviously true — during the period of time when you believe Coughlin was responsible for the draft — the Giants spent very little capital on the offensive line.
During that same period of time the Giants drafted 6 WRs.
Tom Coughlin was the architect of the great destruction.
Yes the foundation of the fronts were set and it proved to be a good assessment. Then you build outside. They also still did add some OL. Boothe was a key waiver wire pickup.
Ready for the truth? Big men should have the ability to reevaluate a position. You have called quite a few little men so I will make a assumption (which I don't like) and assume you are one. Reese pictures or the truth. Again you decide. Unless of course you believed the OL of 2011 was going to be around. I mean you did suggest last week that you wished Reese didn't draft OL and doubled down on more WR's during the great destruction (2013-17). True right?
Enormous one and a good one.
Negative. What I said when TC came in it became the highest priority. Controlling the LOS. The moves to follow show this. Go back and listen to his intro. Wellington even said it was music to his ears. That's my truth.
Reese did great work in carrying his part of it out. As did Dave. This after EA left.
Now later Reese......what a disaster that backend part of his tenure. Sad with a two time SB MVP QB who was a pocket passer. This is also my truth.
You have yours. History will decide who told it correctly.
Hope you don't slam TC and Eli when they go the HOF. I will wish Reese good luck if he gets another chance but seems odd he has not been hired already......or not.
Perhaps the league knows the truth.
Coughlin was a true disciple of the Erhardt-Perkins approach, and as a former WR coach understood the best way to open up the vertical game was play action and putting his offense in favorable down and distances. But he also wanted top pedigree WRs and spent cap and draft capital to put together that group.
The Giants had two really big strokes of luck on the offensive line: David Diehl proved to be a competent LT, and Rich Seubert recovered from his injury. The midrange investment of O’Hara, Boothe, and Baas worked out well for a short period. The big investment in McKenzie worked out perfectly.
As a product of low draft investment and bad luck with injuries, the offensive line fell off a cliff in 2013. Coughlin and Reese are both to blame.
Keep in mind Snee, Baas, and Beatty were all effectively shot by the age of 30. That’s bad luck. But they didn’t invest in the line in any significant way during the glory years.
By the time they got serious in investing, Mara was vocally creating rifts between the staff and management. There were clear power struggles, and during that period of time they spent a bunch of premium picks on lineman who failed.
Agree some power struggles which TC ultimately lost. That is truth. TC surely contributed to it. Truth. Now you said some time ago that Reese should have been sent away with TC. That's not the truth from you but agree he should have been gone with TC.
Done on this thread. You didn't tell the truth on Reese. I have seen too many other threads on this topic that you were not telling the truth. Funny you wanted posters to tell the truth last week.
Maybe next time.
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
Last week, some were ready to go up to $40M if that's what got it done and many who were not on board previously, were at least resigned to the fact that Jones would likely be back and likely be paid big time. Last night, though, allowed questions to creep back to the forefront because this was a good D and he did nothing.
Would I still like him back? Yes. That hasn't changed. But, my initial thoughts that I wouldn't pay him $35M+ returned. I'm not sure how low I think he should get, but I know that's my ceiling and I think it's more than generous.
The real question is what are Schoen's floor and ceiling for Jones.
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That’s a lot of words, let’s simplify the argument.
True or false, during the period of time you believe Coughlin had major influence over the draft, the Giants picked 2 total offensive lineman with top 100 picks.
Again true or false?
Look I am sure you are a bright guy. You told or suggest this to me with your posts. For me it suggests something else but onward.
TC liked some of the OL on the roster. O'Hara was added in FA in 2004 along with Snee. Then McKenzie in 2005 which was a long big commitment FA. Diehl was on the roster. Suebert made back in time. So the need was not to number of picks. The mistake was not preparing and executing for the eventual OL destruction later.
EA believed you can get a LT and fill in the rest with good coaching. Ravens/Giants SB happened. It was not good enough.
TC changed this mindset. Just being pretty good is not enough. Are we clear?
I get you don't like being wrong and being told the truth. To speak the truth you have to first be willing to accept it. Ready to accept? Or more Reese pics. You decide.
What the flying fuck are you continuing to babble about? “Or more Reese picks”? Wtf? This regime had two 1st round picks in the first draft. What positions did they draft? Yep, that’s right, OL and DL. Trenches.
But yeah, “more Reese….”. Clown.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
Maybe next time.
No, no little pants on fire.
You made up something I didn’t say, and don’t have the integrity to admit. That makes you a liar.
I challenged you on this thread to accept the logical inferences you were making, based on timing and Coughlin’s role. You said it not me.
I’m just gonna start calling you The Track, because I love running circles around you.
Until next time indeed!
A win yesterday would have only cemented that and added to the already growing price tag. A loss with a good showing would have done similar. But last night they lost and he looked pedestrian and displayed some of the issues that plagues him in the past in terms of indecisiveness, turnovers, lack of pocket awareness, etc.
That's where I was, too. I know Philly has a high-end D, but a high-end QB will figure out more than DJ did last. So, I expected a much better effort.
Yet, he did not look the franchise QB part at all. That robotic nature to his game crept back in. And that's disappointing because it seemed - or it was hoped - the light finally went on for good the last few weeks.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
I don't know what changed, but somewhere along the line, their scouting and personnel departments completely lost the ability to evaluate OL. That was across the board; college, internal, and other pros (FA). Every single choice bombed.
The Reese/Coughlin/Gettleman group hit on all the OL moves for a long period of time. It was a hell of a run. And you can't under appreciate the job Pat Flaherty did as well.
Unfortunately you did not follow the tread and if you did you would understand the point about waiting on someone to develop if you know that won't be the reality. That's it.
I don't mind debate but you need to come with a basic level of comprehension.
Save the clown talk for someone else or yourself which you were with your assessment and next time read from the beginning of the thread.
Yes, please save the clown talk for someone else or yourself! We're here to discuss fictional phone calls between Schoen and Parcells, BBS. Nothing else will be tolerated.
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...the Giants will take a WR or CB on day one.
This certainly a strong possibility and those positional groups are also big weak spots on the team.
or a 3-down MLB who can also rush the QB.