to the lines IMO. Our QB was harassed all night while they ran the ball effortlessly. They didn't gave to throw last night if they didn't want to. They could've run the ball 70 times and the score wouldn't have been much different.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
building up the front lines on both sides of the ball still needs to be the main priority. As much as WR needs an upgrade, a deep threat WR ain't going to help much if they can't pass protect long enough against a front like the Eagles.
and 2 x 1k yard receivers.
and 2 x shut down corners.
but with 11 picks and lots of money to spend those are the 4 areas i'd be focused on pretty intently with an eye towards value for nyg.
phi was able to buy bradberry low off the down year.
reddick and sweat were both acquired at discounts bc of size.
they were aggressive in trades for both smith and ajb the last 2 years and didnt let the reagor failure curb their aggression.
they did well on the OL too but i actually think they are a bit lucky to have johnson and kelce still playing at such a high level after such long careers. that's just uncommon fortune. brandon graham too for that matter. imagine jpp was still here putting up a career high sack season?
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
So ignore it because they have missed in the past? I have a feeling Schoen, Daboll and Johnson can find OL in the middle of the draft. I think Ezeudu is going to be good. Would love to have seen McKethan and his 340 lbs at some point this season..
Not sure what they think about Gates. It was strange that they rotated Bredesen and he. I suppose getting minutes for both. Is it development or experience or both?
prime picks on them you better get it right. Jury is still out on Schoen with Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
That kind of makes my point though. How much of the Eagles oline being dominant has to do with Hurts, Brown, Smith, Goedert, etc. If Ezedu can be average, Neal improves and they improve the WR corp the line will look a lot better.
against either SF or Dallas's D. The OL won't dominate like they did against us. They will have a lot more trouble running, Hurts will have a lot less time, etc.
wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
So ignore it because they have missed in the past? I have a feeling Schoen, Daboll and Johnson can find OL in the middle of the draft. I think Ezeudu is going to be good. Would love to have seen McKethan and his 340 lbs at some point this season..
Not sure what they think about Gates. It was strange that they rotated Bredesen and he. I suppose getting minutes for both. Is it development or experience or both?
roster building is not an exact science like that.
We need a good OL <> use all your best picks on OL. Some have to come from FA, some (and this cannot be stressed enough) have to come from non-premium picks or FA (coach them up).
the Cowboys had significant OL investment for years, and their players panned out, and they didn't win a playoff game.
Miles Sanders and Boston Scott are not all pro backs, but they look pretty good behind that offensive line. Brady got away with sub-par receivers for most of his career. Fix the trenches and maybe grab a defender or two. It's not all going to be fixed in one more offseason.
they come from. You just have to get good OL on you roster.
Loading up on all first round OL presents other potential problems.
What is important is that you know what to scout for and how to develop. Probably as important is moving on and keeping at it and not accepting mediocrity or worse.
Not to takeaway from this OL or the other 3 players on the unit but how much does coaching factor in?
I’ve mentioned this before but I have a connection through family friends to their OL coach Stoutland and I know that through HC coaching changes, Roseman has made it clear in the past that Stoutland was going nowhere. Both McAdoo and Judge were interested in his availability. He oversees their entire rushing attack.
What I’m getting at here is that with modern college and NFL camp/practice schedules you’re going to be short on physical reps and especially with guys coming out of college, are you getting more raw talent that needs to be coached up more than ever. Another reason why I think people are jumping the gun on Neal by the way.
In short, I’m in agreement that we’re not in a position to pass up premium OL talent if it falls in our lap, but we need to be sure we have the right coaching as well. I do think Johnson seems like a solid coach.
Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
I have been thinking the same thing imagine Dex and Payne? Wow that would create a lot of opportunities for Blitzers and the Edge players, put the money into the big boys
I have no problem taking OL in the first round as long as it is still best player available. I would add edge as well on the defensive side. But no reaching for need, falling in love with players or trying to outsmart consensus value....
wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
This is false in the sense of player personnel or draft capital. They haven’t any more than the Giants have. The problem is Giants missed on several and have had revolving door of front office and coaching staffs last 8 years where evaluations are changed quickly.
Cowboys line is a shell of where it was a few yrs ago. Eagles have done outstanding job of having an OL program built and sustained consistently through 5 coaching staffs. They don’t just shoot darts or drool over talent. They identify, teach, and develop.
wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
Tyron Smith has been there since 2011 and Zack Martin since 2014.
They are the equivalent of the Giants hitting on and givng second contracts to Pugh and Flowers.
But as we know they did not work out.
But we didn't so we are at a talent disadvantage there. We go up against the Dallas Philadelphia and Washington fronts 6 times a year. That's easily 3 top 10 fronts.
Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
I follow the Bama program a bit. Chip Kelly brought in Stoutland and he is one of those guru OL guys.
But Philly also commits to it.
Roseman boasted about how much they commit to the lines this past draft. Said something like "We always commit heavily to our lines". Operative word "always". They drafted Kelce's hopeful replacement last draft. Kelce was involved in the process.
Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
on the line of scrimmage.. both sides of the ball.
We are going up against at least two other teams that are stronger in that area and people here complain how and why we cannot win division games.
We have to treat this situation the same way that the division handled the Lawrence Taylor situation. Although they failed, they had to immediately place focus on stopping the pass rush.
Unfortunately for us, we are having to fix both lines to be competitive. The good news is that our D line is not far away, we need linebackers to help support.
That said, I truly believe that at least 2 of our starting IOL next year will be different, and that Gates, Bredereson, Feliciano and our current bench and PS OL , not named Ezeudu or McKethan, will be fighting for a spot on the team.
That is not exactly a plan you can replicate or follow.
So was Peters though he started in Buffalo. It's not about where they came from just that you stay committed to it and keep at it till you have what you need. Then keep adding at it to replace someone.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
This is an important distinction. At some point you have to get good offensive line starters outside of round 1 and 2 or you start running a deficit on talented skill guys.
Interesting discussion. And there is no question that the Giants need to do a better job up front: 49 sacks is too many. One can make a pretty good case though that Philly and Cincy are going to play each other in the Super Bowl (especially if Mahomes ankle is as bad as it looked). And those two teams each allowed 44 sacks this fall. So can we get real here. The Eagles and Bengals aren't on the verge of the SB because of their OLs. Philly exploded this year after acquiring WRs Brown and Smith in the past couple of years, plus they have a really dynamic pass rush with what 3-4 guys with double digit sacks numbers. And Cincinnati took off when the got Chase last year to go with Higgins. So how are we going to compete with those teams? Hell ya fix the offensive line!! Makes sense to me!
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Interesting discussion. And there is no question that the Giants need to do a better job up front: 49 sacks is too many. One can make a pretty good case though that Philly and Cincy are going to play each other in the Super Bowl (especially if Mahomes ankle is as bad as it looked). And those two teams each allowed 44 sacks this fall. So can we get real here. The Eagles and Bengals aren't on the verge of the SB because of their OLs. Philly exploded this year after acquiring WRs Brown and Smith in the past couple of years, plus they have a really dynamic pass rush with what 3-4 guys with double digit sacks numbers. And Cincinnati took off when the got Chase last year to go with Higgins. So how are we going to compete with those teams? Hell ya fix the offensive line!! Makes sense to me!
Colin not sure if your last question is sarcastic. If so, why? You mentioned the Eagles pass rush in your own response.
showed he wants big vesitle lineman. The 3 he drafted were all guys that played G and T.
Mu belief is thats to get the best 5 on the field. That said I dont know which guys he looked at as guys who can play C.
Feliciano was the buget option. Would they have made that move if Gates was healthy? Is that the spot we target in the draft?
Bredeson played well but I would look at him as insurance at G/C and expect Ezudu to be the LG. Mckethan can hopefully comeback and be the back up RG thatvpushes Glowinski. Would expect a small deal for either Gates or Feliciano to pencil in at C before the draft.
I cant see FA being the route on the OL. Feel the first thing we need to do is spend some money on a ILB and a CB to have in place before the draft.
Giants were dominated in the trenches all game both
Chrus ... Me sarcastic never! Maybe I could have said it better as in a general sense I am all for loading up on pass rushers and receivers that can stretch the field. Tbey are the guys, other than your QB, that change games (on a consistent basis) in the NFL these days. The Giants actually have some pretty good potential on the DL although they can always add more, but we got nothing at WR that even remotely compares with what almost all the good teams in the NFL have at receiver.
Neal needs to step up, because he wasn't even a gate last night.
Neil would benefit from a dominant RG. If I'm JS, I'm signing Dalton Risner to anchor the LG spot.
I’ll get killed for this, but I think Neal is that dominant RG. He had Cox on skates a few times on cross blocks in the run game. Maybe he’ll be a great RT, maybe he’ll just be above average. But what I do know is that I’m confident he could play at an All Pro level at RG.
Wow, are those teams (and PHI) great in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.
Way too much focus here on the backfields. The SB can’t be won without stellar OL and DL - Eagles, Cowboys and 49ers are making that obvious this weekend.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Oh Really? Joe Burrow was top 6 in getting sacked this year. Today with 3 of their starters out he elevated the OL? Honestly, Not sure what your point is. I don't care if we play every single OL position as an UDFA. WE NEED BETTER LINE PLAY. Especially if we want to match up with Philadelphia and Dallas.
When they dropped back to pass the ball was gone fairly quickly because either guys were open quick, or Burrow got rid of the ball quick. They all also happened to have the best games of their careers today. Some days everything just clicks. These guys were backups for a reason.
But there’s no denying an elite QB and elite weapons help make an offensive line’s job easier.
... that would make the allocation debate fairly straightforward. But there are so many variables involved. In an orderly, predictable universe, Jason Kelce would be long forgotten and Weston Richburg would be the undersized future Hall of Fame center. Jordan Mailata would have remained an amusing curiosity like Roy Mbaeteka. Evan Neal would be on a Lane Johnson trajectory.
If the staff has concluded that Neal, Ezeudu, and Glowinski were mistakes, Schoen will have to start planning to move on. Meanwhile, Bobby Johnson and Co. need to coach those guys up to make them whatever they can be
want a big commitment to the front 7 and adding more on the D front will never be a issue for me and I know at least a few posters. Most also want more WR's and I am all in on at least one elite option. It's a team game and you have to be good all over imv. Playoffs expose flaws.
But to the OL issue. Switch the OL's last night? You think Philly puts up 250 on the ground and 38 pts? Just without Johnson the Philly offense has shown to be much different.
When they dropped back to pass the ball was gone fairly quickly because either guys were open quick, or Burrow got rid of the ball quick. They all also happened to have the best games of their careers today. Some days everything just clicks. These guys were backups for a reason.
But there’s no denying an elite QB and elite weapons help make an offensive line’s job easier.
I agree, but I don't think the elevated line play by Cincy in a shuffled line was from that. They were physically beating the Buffalo DL. That's what I saw anyway. We need better WR I agree. None of our WR would even see the field for Philly. But we also need better OL play at Center, at Guard, and at RT. Phillys DL absolutely ABUSED our OL last night.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Oh Really? Joe Burrow was top 6 in getting sacked this year. Today with 3 of their starters out he elevated the OL? Honestly, Not sure what your point is. I don't care if we play every single OL position as an UDFA. WE NEED BETTER LINE PLAY. Especially if we want to match up with Philadelphia and Dallas.
Exactly, this argument is ridiculous.
Bargain bin shopping in FA for OL and using mid to late round picks on OL with zero success is what got Reese fired.
So the Giants are supposed to pass on a stud OL early in the draft simply because they’ve used high picks on a few guys already?
WRs can be found late in the draft too, and this draft looks like there’s going to be some quality WRs in the mid to late rounds.
you have to let DJ and SB go. I don't think you can keep them and address WR and create a spread the field type of an offense with them given their likely cost.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Yeah it seemed like they benefited from the snow. Surprising. I was expecting Cincy to really have trouble with the OL and they came out and dominated. Crazy. Honestly on Burrow, he is my favorite QB in the league. The guy is just a winner.
Eagles have 3 REALLY good ones. Dickerson and Seamulo are okay, nothing special.
Bengals won today with 2 backup tackles and a backup guard they claimed on waivers before the season (from the Texans, of all teams)
I'd argue that some combination of Ezeudu, Bredeson, Glowinski and McKethan can be nearly an equivanlent to the Eagles guard duo.
If a really good Guard falls into the Giants laps, sure, but
its lower on my list of priorities than WR, C, LB, CB, and DL (Can't go into next season relying on Leo and Dex to play 80% of snaps again).
Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
He is also only 24. That’s a lot of prime left and the exact guy you want to sign as a free agent
Priorities 1 2 and 3. Have to hope for organic growth from our 1st and 3rd round picks Neal and Ezeudu. Draft or pick up a FA OG/OT ideally and figure out if Neal is our future at RT or at OG
Positive vibes around the league for Daboll. Money talks but we are more of an attractive environment to play in now.
When have the Giants bargain bin shopped for oline?
Their starting oline has two top 10 picks, a guard they gave a top 7 free agent contract for guards in free agency, and they’ve used two third round picks on Olineman the last three years. That’s a lot of resources. You can’t just go get 5 pro bowlers on the line just because you want them, sometimes you have to let the players you’ve drafted develop. It’s what the Eagles did.
RE: If a big investment of draft picks and cap space guaranteed quality...
... that would make the allocation debate fairly straightforward. But there are so many variables involved. In an orderly, predictable universe, Jason Kelce would be long forgotten and Weston Richburg would be the undersized future Hall of Fame center. Jordan Mailata would have remained an amusing curiosity like Roy Mbaeteka. Evan Neal would be on a Lane Johnson trajectory.
If the staff has concluded that Neal, Ezeudu, and Glowinski were mistakes, Schoen will have to start planning to move on. Meanwhile, Bobby Johnson and Co. need to coach those guys up to make them whatever they can be
I can one up this. In an orderly, predictable universe, Snee and Diehl actually last as effective players until 2017 and we've probably just replaced Beatty - and who knows what the rest of the team looks like because Nicks and Cruz never get hurt meaning we maybe draft Donald in 2014 instead of Beckham.
I’d like to see the Giants stop screwing around at center, and draft a college center in the first two days.
^THIS
C is a special position along the line. They have to make the line calls, be able read and adjust more than any other line position. I've long argued that C is the 2nd most important line position.
RE: If finding, 5 impactful OL is easy.....wouldn't everyone do it?
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
What does contending mean? Being a top team or making the playoffs? If it’s the former than they certainly need better talent. But if it’s the latter they are already there, and will likely be better next year.
Given Jones’ improvement this season, expected improvement from rookie OLs next year, plus the draft and free agency, I think that they can be in the mix next year. Can they hang with the Eagles & Cowboys? We’ll see what the team looks like next year.
The fact that they overachieved this season is a positive. Yet sometimes I think people see it as a negative.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
What does contending mean? Being a top team or making the playoffs? If it’s the former than they certainly need better talent. But if it’s the latter they are already there, and will likely be better next year.
Given Jones’ improvement this season, expected improvement from rookie OLs next year, plus the draft and free agency, I think that they can be in the mix next year. Can they hang with the Eagles & Cowboys? We’ll see what the team looks like next year.
The fact that they overachieved this season is a positive. Yet sometimes I think people see it as a negative.
My personal definition? You're winning your division and finishing as a top-3 seed in the conference.
great. Some of these QB's get to sit in the pocket a long time. OL has so much to do with ball possession and the red zone. I'm with Sy.
It will cost a lot to have 5 dominant OL. Not saying it is a bad idea but how do you pay a #1 WR and have a defense if that much money is allocated to the OL. They could do it on rookie contracts and then let the guys walk as freeagents.
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
The good news(in a sense) is that they still need more quality players at several positions then they can draft. So whomever(BPA) is available at #25 is likely an improvement over what is already on the team.
Dave: sounds like you and I could get a pretty good debate going all on our own. I have a somewhat different take. One doesn't want to discount the importance of the IOL and LB but in the end those positions don't win games. And my sense is that with some combination of the young guys they already have on the IOL and maybe a couple mid-range FAs for depth (if #s 76 and 64 don't come back) they'll be good enough upfront. I'd also be tempted to bring in a vet FA OT for depth and competition for Neal especially if he doesn't pick it up. Same story at LB.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
They don’t need a perfect roster to be a contender.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
And that 2 years is *if* they make the right personnel decisions in free agency, the draft, and re-signing/extending their own players each year (most of the time).
in the NFL - just my opinion - this is the hardest leap to make (from mediocre to contender - consistent contender), and if you fail to make it you wind up back on the bottom or in NFL team purgatory where you are not good enough to contend but also not bad enough to add the best impact players.
This idea that you need a “perfect” roster around QB
I don’t buy it. All I heard was how awful the Bengals OL was. Don’t they have NYG castoffs? Why can they go from 2-14 in 2019 to what they’ve become so quickly?
offseason plans should be (e.g. current roster FA/ERFA/etc, Free Agent targets, and potential draft targets)?
I know your schedule is incredibly busy, but would love to get your insight on this.
Thanks for all the great work you do!
I lined up a couple things this week. Aiming for game review being out Tuesday, and Jones thoughts Thursday / Friday. Offseason plan in the coming weeks.
Dave: sounds like you and I could get a pretty good debate going all on our own. I have a somewhat different take. One doesn't want to discount the importance of the IOL and LB but in the end those positions don't win games. And my sense is that with some combination of the young guys they already have on the IOL and maybe a couple mid-range FAs for depth (if #s 76 and 64 don't come back) they'll be good enough upfront. I'd also be tempted to bring in a vet FA OT for depth and competition for Neal especially if he doesn't pick it up. Same story at LB.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
Is it too early to see a potential concern here?
Too early? Yes.
A guy like Neal needs at least 2 years to show progress. And again to repeat myself from last summer -
2023 will be the first time Neal plays the same position 2 years in a row since he was in high school
RE: This idea that you need a “perfect” roster around QB
I don’t buy it. All I heard was how awful the Bengals OL was. Don’t they have NYG castoffs? Why can they go from 2-14 in 2019 to what they’ve become so quickly?
Joe Burrow is one reason. But when you get a coaching staff that can coach, they can take players that people thought were deficient and clean them up. Then they got Ja'mar Chase on top of Tee Higgins...Many of the pieces were there. Just had to be tuned up.
The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Dave: sounds like you and I could get a pretty good debate going all on our own. I have a somewhat different take. One doesn't want to discount the importance of the IOL and LB but in the end those positions don't win games. And my sense is that with some combination of the young guys they already have on the IOL and maybe a couple mid-range FAs for depth (if #s 76 and 64 don't come back) they'll be good enough upfront. I'd also be tempted to bring in a vet FA OT for depth and competition for Neal especially if he doesn't pick it up. Same story at LB.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
Colin, unfortunately we are closer to the same page than you think. WR is my top need for NYG. CB is second. Pass rusher is 3rd.
But I bring up OL because if there is the right value, I am going in the direction. I will not overlook OL just because I need a WR more. A team like NYG needs to take value where it is given. My point of that tweet was simple.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better.
If you want to use CIN as an example - show me where Burrow and Chase are.
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
Is it too early to see a potential concern here?
Too early? Yes.
A guy like Neal needs at least 2 years to show progress. And again to repeat myself from last summer -
2023 will be the first time Neal plays the same position 2 years in a row since he was in high school
Thanks. I always had it in my head RT could come in as a rookie mauler and still be modestly successful. Perhaps I expected too much from Neal as he has looked awful to me, at times I wished for Solder back at RT.
The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
All of those are homers moves
Thank you. These next 2 drafts are huge for Schoen.
The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
All of those are homers moves
Lane Johnson, Jason Kelce, Brandon Graham, and Fletcher Cox reverse course and continue to play at a high level
Gettleman's salary cap gaffe causes Bradberry to end up in Philly
Saints gift Philadelphia a top 10 pick in the upcoming draft
the Schoen made a terrible mistake. I believe that Neal will develop. This year he was a rookie, he worked a RT instead of LT, and he had an injury and lost time. I would be surprised if Schoen was that wrong on Neal.
the Schoen made a terrible mistake. I believe that Neal will develop. This year he was a rookie, he worked a RT instead of LT, and he had an injury and lost time. I would be surprised if Schoen was that wrong on Neal.
The Cowboys had him ranked near the top of their draft board. People need to be patient.
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
I mentioned the 2005 Giants last night. The Giants were 2 off seasons away from competing for a championship.
That team was 1 corner, 2 defensive lineman, 3 linebackers, and a safety away on defense.
Offense is a little trickier, four of the five starting lineman where in place. Barber, Tyree, and Shockey started, and were replaced for various reasons by 2007.
Point being, sometimes teams build up to a window. I think this team is in a similar place.
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Sy, not a WR, but would Mayer help at #25...He could be highest rated player on the board.
RE: RE: Sy - will you be able to give us your thoughts on what the Giants'
offseason plans should be (e.g. current roster FA/ERFA/etc, Free Agent targets, and potential draft targets)?
I know your schedule is incredibly busy, but would love to get your insight on this.
Thanks for all the great work you do!
I lined up a couple things this week. Aiming for game review being out Tuesday, and Jones thoughts Thursday / Friday. Offseason plan in the coming weeks.
That's great SY! I'm looking forward to reading these.
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Sy, not a WR, but would Mayer help at #25...He could be highest rated player on the board.
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Dave: That's kind of what I thought. Of course, it is unlikely that the Giants will find a guy as good as Chase at #25, but I believe it is incumbent on them to come out of this draft with THE best receiver they can get. And if they were to go with a BPA at another position - and I would certainly look long and hard at an OG like Torrence if he was available, he's that good - then I think they would almost have to trade back up to get one of Hyatt, Tillman, Rice, Downs, or Flowers.
prime picks on them you better get it right. Jury is still out on Schoen with Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
I didn't mean to imply that they were all prime picks. I'm just wondering how good Schoen is at evaluating OL. If he's good, then one or two of those guys will work out and our needs won'dt be as great. If he's not so good, we may have Gettleman redux
prime picks on them you better get it right. Jury is still out on Schoen with Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
I didn't mean to imply that they were all prime picks. I'm just wondering how good Schoen is at evaluating OL. If he's good, then one or two of those guys will work out and our needs won'dt be as great. If he's not so good, we may have Gettleman redux
I'm not saying he's DG. I'm only referring to OL pickups
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
I would rather have the OL Colin. Hurts when pressured has not been good. That OL is a big reason why that OL clicks. It's all part and parcel though... I just feel like it seems tougher to build a dominant line.
you have to keep at it with the OL. Ezeudu and McKethan were not highly thought of by what I read at draft time. Sure, they can become good players, but standing pat thinking everybody will get better is what got them in trouble in the first place.
Oh, and get a LB or two that can help stop the run.
For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
I would rather have the OL Colin. Hurts when pressured has not been good. That OL is a big reason why that OL clicks. It's all part and parcel though... I just feel like it seems tougher to build a dominant line.
Johnny et al: One of my rules for analyzing sports is don't make judgments about a player or team based on one game. The sample size is just too small. The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8.
On the other hand, their top two WRs combined for 2,700 yards, 18 TDs and 41 big plays. Our top two guys (and I realize they didn't play as many snaps) had 1,300 yards, 6 TDs and 15 big plays. You do the math.
Fun as this season was, the Giants benefitted from a fairly easy schedule and a few breaks along the way. It’s pretty much impossible to keep winning such a large number of one-score games. The game last night should have been a bright light shining on the fact that there are a lot of positions that need upgrades, particularly at OL and LB.
I think it’s very possible that next year’s team will be a better team with a worse record. All we can do is put our faith in the Schoen/Daboll partnership and trust that they identify the right players in the draft and FA.
The DL is closer to be elite....than any other group on the Giants
Add a stud DL and a stud corner......Azeez figures how to stay on the field. Beavers steps up.
Neal is key....and let's hope off season development.....a year removed has Gates playing center at a higher level. They figure out the guards.....no one doubts a decent OL is vital. A mystery....of 10+ years....the Giants have a ton of bodies.....get more....but please figure it out.
A stud WR is a must.....maybe Collins continues impressing....Hodgins and W.Robinson do better as 3rd and 4th options at WR. I wanted Pickens.
but I am also not going to stop believing that more than some of the answers are already on board -- and that Neal, McKethon, and Ezudu - need another year or two in an NFL program to blossom to their potential -- I think they are all quality picks and that the FO had a really good draft last year. I also like Bobby Johnson a lot. It was a patchwork line this year face it and at least Neal and Ezudu got very important reps that were needed for their growth.
If the Giants don't get at least one alpha WR and another alpha CB on staff (we need at least two of each) their ability to play with the big boys is going to be severely limited.
Is that there has already been quite a lot of resources invested in OL from the beginning of Gettleman's tenure until now. Yet the OL continues to be mediocre or worse. That indicates potentially a systemic problem in how the OL are scouted and developed. Hopefully Schoen/Daboll have made strides in fixing this - there were definitely improvements this year in the overall performance - but the jury is still out on both their picks and FA pickups in this area and the returns have been just ok thus far.
Johnny et al: One of my rules for analyzing sports is don't make judgments about a player or team based on one game. The sample size is just too small. The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8.
There are also other stats aren't there? About how often Hurts was pressured vs Jones?
I just don’t know how realistic it is. How many teams have that? Philly, maybe SF? Cincy is going to it’s 2nd straight AFCCG and their OL is almost as bad as ours. KC’s is decent, certainly better than ours, but I wouldn’t call it dominant.
There are A LOT of needs on this team, using all of our premium assets on the OL wouldn’t be wise IMO.
Dave: sounds like you and I could get a pretty good debate going all on our own. I have a somewhat different take. One doesn't want to discount the importance of the IOL and LB but in the end those positions don't win games. And my sense is that with some combination of the young guys they already have on the IOL and maybe a couple mid-range FAs for depth (if #s 76 and 64 don't come back) they'll be good enough upfront. I'd also be tempted to bring in a vet FA OT for depth and competition for Neal especially if he doesn't pick it up. Same story at LB.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
Colin, unfortunately we are closer to the same page than you think. WR is my top need for NYG. CB is second. Pass rusher is 3rd.
But I bring up OL because if there is the right value, I am going in the direction. I will not overlook OL just because I need a WR more. A team like NYG needs to take value where it is given. My point of that tweet was simple.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better.
If you want to use CIN as an example - show me where Burrow and Chase are.
If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
RE: I am with Sy - this is still at least a medium term project
Fun as this season was, the Giants benefitted from a fairly easy schedule and a few breaks along the way. It’s pretty much impossible to keep winning such a large number of one-score games. The game last night should have been a bright light shining on the fact that there are a lot of positions that need upgrades, particularly at OL and LB.
I think it’s very possible that next year’s team will be a better team with a worse record. All we can do is put our faith in the Schoen/Daboll partnership and trust that they identify the right players in the draft and FA.
In particular also at WR. In particular also the DL not getting pressure. In particular maybe a RB if SB goes. In particular another very good quality CB.
If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
Buffalo traded their LT to get an elite QB, so I find it hard to believe Schoen would pass up a top end WR in the draft to take oline if the players are rated similarly
Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
The Eagles have NOT invested more in their offensive line than the Giants. That is categorically false.
The Eagles have just acquired better offensive line talent than the Giants (using lesser resources), and developed/retained those players to form a dominant offensive line. But if you're just looking at the resources invested in the offensive line, the Giants have spent more FA money and draft picks on the OL than the Eagles.
Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
These factors impact all NFL teams, don't they?
It does. The impact is not the same for every team though and the variable with it is coaching and how the offense plays from a schematic point of view.
I really wish people would disabuse themselves of this notion that the Eagles have a dominant OL. Sure they had a dominant game against the Giants on the weekend, but on the season they were very average allowing 44 sacks (just 5 fewer than the Giants) while they averaged 4.6 yards in the run game LESS than the Giants did (4.8).
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
These factors impact all NFL teams, don't they?
It does. The impact is not the same for every team though and the variable with it is coaching and how the offense plays from a schematic point of view.
Then I would argue that teams should play whatever scheme minimizes those factors since that seems to represent an opportunity for a significant competitive advantage. It would seem to be the height of stubbornness to insist on running a system (in any industry) where your feeder system does not provide adequate manpower and talent.
we can find the lunch pail types. Find the star. That is 10% of a unit. We aren't that far away unless you think 1 star is very hard to find. Maybe it is.
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
But I bring up OL because if there is the right value, I am going in the direction. I will not overlook OL just because I need a WR more. A team like NYG needs to take value where it is given. My point of that tweet was simple.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better....
Many here wanted Creed Humphrey, wanted Linderbaum, I don't remember talk about Jurgens, but there always seem to be reasons not to: too light, C is not important enough position to draft that high (!!??), meanwhile we've had 'don't sleep on 'Pio', the loss of Gates, and it's not clear where he will be, and #76 is not the answer.
we can find the lunch pail types. Find the star. That is 10% of a unit. We aren't that far away unless you think 1 star is very hard to find. Maybe it is.
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
Agreed. And keep churning / bettering the bottom of the roster.
I have my doubts whether he'd slip to #25, but if he did, he's a no brainer. Perfect NY Giants TE. Can block, can get open downfield and make tough catches. I like Bellinger, but I don't mind having 2 good TEs.
He'd go a long way to adding more of a presence at the LOS, too. He's got the added benefit of helping the blocking and adding a weapon.
Interesting to conclude the Philly Offensive Line as simply average
Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
there are 4 areas the eagles firmly outclassed nyg
Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
Good points. But again I try and avoid putting too much stock in just one game. I analyze seasons and I don't believe the numbers lie. That's why we collect numbers. And in the baseline numbers on the season as a whole there wasn't a ton of difference between the productivity of the two OLs. However, there was a world 0 maybe even a universe - of difference between the numbers for the two team's elite receivers and the defenses.
And I asked the question of somebody above. I give you the choice: you can have the Eagles OL or Brown and Smith. Think about it.
My reasoning is this would help the Giants when they faced the more challenging D's that made the offense more challenging to succeed. The OL showed its warts here.
So facing one of the upper tier fronts Philly's OL would help this challenge. First reason is I would still be able to run the ball. In the fewer poor down/distance scenarios I feel that OL would offer Jones better protection to allow our more limited WR's to work open. The overall running success would help create balance and keep D's guessing with both options more open.
From a team perspective this would help the D with our limitations on that side. I think having a offense that could hold the ball longer TOP/play count would give them a better chance to maximize the talent they have.
Good points. But again I try and avoid putting too much stock in just one game. I analyze seasons and I don't believe the numbers lie. That's why we collect numbers. And in the baseline numbers on the season as a whole there wasn't a ton of difference between the productivity of the two OLs. However, there was a world 0 maybe even a universe - of difference between the numbers for the two team's elite receivers and the defenses.
Of course you use the whole season. Nobody's debating that one game tells all.
But surely would put more stock in assessing/comparing various OLs by more than simply sacks allowed and yards/carry.
Ton of metrics available, all pointing to the underlying support an OL provides an offense including but not limited to: total first downs, 3rd and 4th down conversion %s, yards produced per play, pressures and hurry %s, points produced, etc. And if you want to also utilize your eyes and watch NYG and Philly throughout the season, that would be fine as well.
No one should ever suggest that Philly doesn't have stronger WRs and that they also contribute to the above metrics. But to claim that the NYG and Eagle OLs are "comparable" (or that the Eagles OL is average) because they are both within 5 sacks allowed from one another is simply comical.
If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
Buffalo traded their LT to get an elite QB, so I find it hard to believe Schoen would pass up a top end WR in the draft to take oline if the players are rated similarly
Look at how good the Eagles Oline are, and look how good the Cowboys Oline was against a strong 49ers defense?! If somebody in their Oline falls off, they never miss a beat?! Why can’t the Giants get there?! Like I always say, Defense wins you championships, but the Oline gets you there!
I really wish people would disabuse themselves of this notion that the Eagles have a dominant OL. Sure they had a dominant game against the Giants on the weekend, but on the season they were very average allowing 44 sacks (just 5 fewer than the Giants) while they averaged 4.6 yards in the run game LESS than the Giants did (4.8).
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
I don't agree how you are representing this at all. Philly OL was definitely dominant. Isn't Philly among the lowest in in being hurried/knocked down?
If they are and you add that to how they run the ball and overall the team passed for over 4,000 yards how can this be construed as "not dominant" or "only 1 game?"
And by the way, Philly had TWO dominant games against the Giants. And overall the Giants defense wasn't that bad, was it?
we can find the lunch pail types. Find the star. That is 10% of a unit. We aren't that far away unless you think 1 star is very hard to find. Maybe it is.
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
We are much further away that you represent. Much further. I'd wish you would be right but imo you're way off.
I never said the Giants and Eagles OLs were comparable. I said their baseline stats were comparable because they are! Maybe there are other stats out there that show there is a much wider discrepancy that somebody can cherry pick but to what end. And again I just find it hard to believe that a team that is 13th in the league in yards per rush and 22nd in sacks allowed has a 'dominant' OL. Those numbers just don't compute.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
You do this for a living and I'm a guy on my couch with a keyboard. But I'm not sure I agree with you. I do agree that the Eagles have two elite WRs and a very good TE. But I think their QB and RBs are nothing special and look special because of their OL. I think if you swapped the WRs, TEs, QBs and RBs to the opposite teams Saturday night the score would have been the same and I think if you swapped the defenses the Eagles still would have won because the Giants OL can't pass block any team well.
I was heartened by Joe Scheon's comments today. I took them to mean he knows how weak the middle of the Giants OL and DL/ILBs are and that those positions are the top priority to upgrade this off season.
I never said the Giants and Eagles OLs were comparable. I said their baseline stats were comparable because they are! Maybe there are other stats out there that show there is a much wider discrepancy that somebody can cherry pick but to what end. And again I just find it hard to believe that a team that is 13th in the league in yards per rush and 22nd in sacks allowed has a 'dominant' OL. Those numbers just don't compute.
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"I analyze seasons and I don't believe the numbers lie. That's why we collect numbers. And in the baseline numbers on the season as a whole there wasn't a ton of difference between the productivity of the two OLs."
The above is your quote. Apologies if we took you out of context that you weren't indeed comparing the two team's OLs but it seemed fairly obvious.
Also would suggest if you all are collecting that many numbers to analyze this topic, that boiling OL assessment all down to just Sacks and Yards/Carry is the definition of cherry-picking.
I never said the Giants and Eagles OLs were comparable. I said their baseline stats were comparable because they are! Maybe there are other stats out there that show there is a much wider discrepancy that somebody can cherry pick but to what end. And again I just find it hard to believe that a team that is 13th in the league in yards per rush and 22nd in sacks allowed has a 'dominant' OL. Those numbers just don't compute.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
Should be a really cool off-season
Again IMO I don't agree with how you are representing things. You did compare the two teams OLInes - this is what you said
"The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8."
How is that not a comparison?
Further you are the one cherry-picking the sack stat only and ignoring "hurries/knockdowns" etc. Then you are throwing out there the one stat you want highlight and ignore others and end your comment with a comment "to what end." How is hurries and knockdowns not important and only sacks is?
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
Nothing suggests he needs a push from a attitude or effort standpoint but they need to get better production from that spot regardless and having capable backups in the event of injury should be a goal regardless. You have insurance in case he doesn't advance.
The issue this year was Jones often faced pressure from the inside and outside against better teams imv.
Agree on the pass rushers and the edge. What also helps that is stopping the run so they get more opportunities to create havoc. That was another very problematic area.
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
+1 overall her Colin. I agree with you enitriely on this. Yes they need WR's. That';s huge goign forward.
As far as stats I got this from ESPN though tit's only 16 games.
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
I can get behind the way you have it stated here. I thought sure we were going to be running Devonta Smith out for us every week, so that hurts even more. I guess my final comment would be... Instead of choosing between the Philly OL or their WRs... can I have a guy or two from both squads? :)
Putting aside the overriding concept that GMs draft players
not positions for a minute. And not to downplay what improvement was seen this year on the field, but this is still a fairly comprehensive rebuilding process the NYG are smack dab in the middle of.
With that said, Schoen is best served to focus on the highest value positions when considering the usage of the Day 1 & Day 2 picks for this year and forseeable future. That typically means (assuming DJ is at least tagged) WR, CB, Edge Rusher and OT.
It doesn't mean ILB, DT, Interior OL and TE units don't need investment or shouldn't be in play when our early picks come around and a special prospect is sitting at the top (or very close to) of the board at one or more of these positions. That's when your tiered approach needs to have some discriminating factors that help drive the GM to the overall best pick for the situation.
Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
I agree LoS, but I am projecting some steps forward for Neal at RT with his rookie year under his belt.
It's so true and why a day later I have been re-thinking my take on OL
I had been saying they return a healthy Ezeudu, McKethan, Bredeson, Feliciano, and Gates to compete for the 3 interior positions and draft an interior OL in the first 3 rounds. I think if Feliciano is moved off OC and the 3 best at those respective positions win out, we will have a good OL. But, we need a great OL.
The flip side is having a dominant front on Defense. We have 2 dominant DTs with no true DEs or OLBs. We have EDGE, which may be the trend, but 2 EDGE and 2 DTs isn't stopping the run and it wasn't consistent in getting pressure either. I think a tweak to the scheme to incorporate more traditional fronts is needed. We don't have the DEs for a 3-4 and we certainly don't have the LBs. That includes OLB. I'm sorry, but LT and Banks weren't EDGE, they were OLB and there is a difference.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
Not predicting how this will go but there are options....
Cap currently is third in NFL space at around 60M
Some notable potential options for further space...
Leo extension 13.5M
Golladay cut 13.5M
Adoree extension 8M
Lawrence extension 9M
Current cap 60M which can go up to a quite robust 104M with all 4 of those moves. 80-90 with 2 or 3.
Spitballing here and they probably won't do all this but they could fit it under the cap conceivably....or maybe they accomplish the top 4 on the list and go bargain shoping for the rest?
1.Barkley 10M 2023 cap hit
2.Jones 22M 2023 cap hit (For reference Daks was 19M 1st year)
3.Trade for a bigtime wide reciever est. Cap hit 25M
4. Sign a CB off the market Byron Jones, Jamal Dean, Peters, 15-18M
5. Another Offensive lineman with OT/OG versatility 12-15M
6. ILB upgrade to hold the fort until Beavers, McFadden are ready 8M
Go BPA in the draft at the remaining higher need positions.
I really wish people would disabuse themselves of this notion that the Eagles have a dominant OL. Sure they had a dominant game against the Giants on the weekend, but on the season they were very average allowing 44 sacks (just 5 fewer than the Giants) while they averaged 4.6 yards in the run game LESS than the Giants did (4.8).
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
Maybe the reason we rushed for more yards per carry than Philly is because we have Barkley and they don't.
Hope for the best, but actually prep like the worst could happen.
There's your blueprint right there.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Neil would benefit from a dominant RG. If I'm JS, I'm signing Dalton Risner to anchor the LG spot.
and 2 x shut down corners.
but with 11 picks and lots of money to spend those are the 4 areas i'd be focused on pretty intently with an eye towards value for nyg.
phi was able to buy bradberry low off the down year.
reddick and sweat were both acquired at discounts bc of size.
they were aggressive in trades for both smith and ajb the last 2 years and didnt let the reagor failure curb their aggression.
they did well on the OL too but i actually think they are a bit lucky to have johnson and kelce still playing at such a high level after such long careers. that's just uncommon fortune. brandon graham too for that matter. imagine jpp was still here putting up a career high sack season?
Eagles had a bunch of guys who’ve been drafted mid to late and they’ve slowly developed them.
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Neal needs to step up, because he wasn't even a gate last night.
Neil would benefit from a dominant RG. If I'm JS, I'm signing Dalton Risner to anchor the LG spot.
How is that helping Neal?
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
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In comment 16008834 section125 said:
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Neal needs to step up, because he wasn't even a gate last night.
Neil would benefit from a dominant RG. If I'm JS, I'm signing Dalton Risner to anchor the LG spot.
How is that helping Neal?
It's not. I just really like Risner. 2 different statements. I can see how it was confusing.
not having duds
We have some talent. We need beef.
We have some talent. We need beef.
Hog Molly's? 😏
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
So ignore it because they have missed in the past? I have a feeling Schoen, Daboll and Johnson can find OL in the middle of the draft. I think Ezeudu is going to be good. Would love to have seen McKethan and his 340 lbs at some point this season..
Not sure what they think about Gates. It was strange that they rotated Bredesen and he. I suppose getting minutes for both. Is it development or experience or both?
Landon Dickerson stood out to me, would have loved him in blue.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Their OL dominated the Bills.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
That kind of makes my point though. How much of the Eagles oline being dominant has to do with Hurts, Brown, Smith, Goedert, etc. If Ezedu can be average, Neal improves and they improve the WR corp the line will look a lot better.
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
So ignore it because they have missed in the past? I have a feeling Schoen, Daboll and Johnson can find OL in the middle of the draft. I think Ezeudu is going to be good. Would love to have seen McKethan and his 340 lbs at some point this season..
Not sure what they think about Gates. It was strange that they rotated Bredesen and he. I suppose getting minutes for both. Is it development or experience or both?
roster building is not an exact science like that.
We need a good OL <> use all your best picks on OL. Some have to come from FA, some (and this cannot be stressed enough) have to come from non-premium picks or FA (coach them up).
the Cowboys had significant OL investment for years, and their players panned out, and they didn't win a playoff game.
You need a balanced roster.
You may be able to get around it in the regular season. If you want a championship around here again order has to be restored imv.
Loading up on all first round OL presents other potential problems.
What is important is that you know what to scout for and how to develop. Probably as important is moving on and keeping at it and not accepting mediocrity or worse.
I’ve mentioned this before but I have a connection through family friends to their OL coach Stoutland and I know that through HC coaching changes, Roseman has made it clear in the past that Stoutland was going nowhere. Both McAdoo and Judge were interested in his availability. He oversees their entire rushing attack.
What I’m getting at here is that with modern college and NFL camp/practice schedules you’re going to be short on physical reps and especially with guys coming out of college, are you getting more raw talent that needs to be coached up more than ever. Another reason why I think people are jumping the gun on Neal by the way.
In short, I’m in agreement that we’re not in a position to pass up premium OL talent if it falls in our lap, but we need to be sure we have the right coaching as well. I do think Johnson seems like a solid coach.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
I have been thinking the same thing imagine Dex and Payne? Wow that would create a lot of opportunities for Blitzers and the Edge players, put the money into the big boys
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
The Giants have invested more top resources in the oline than the Eagles
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
Tyron Smith has been there since 2011 and Zack Martin since 2014.
They are the equivalent of the Giants hitting on and givng second contracts to Pugh and Flowers.
But as we know they did not work out.
A great offensive line is a defense’s best friend. By far!!!
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
This is false in the sense of player personnel or draft capital. They haven’t any more than the Giants have. The problem is Giants missed on several and have had revolving door of front office and coaching staffs last 8 years where evaluations are changed quickly.
Cowboys line is a shell of where it was a few yrs ago. Eagles have done outstanding job of having an OL program built and sustained consistently through 5 coaching staffs. They don’t just shoot darts or drool over talent. They identify, teach, and develop.
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In comment 16008869 pjcas18 said:
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
Tyron Smith has been there since 2011 and Zack Martin since 2014.
They are the equivalent of the Giants hitting on and givng second contracts to Pugh and Flowers.
But as we know they did not work out.
But we didn't so we are at a talent disadvantage there. We go up against the Dallas Philadelphia and Washington fronts 6 times a year. That's easily 3 top 10 fronts.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
But Philly also commits to it.
Roseman boasted about how much they commit to the lines this past draft. Said something like "We always commit heavily to our lines". Operative word "always". They drafted Kelce's hopeful replacement last draft. Kelce was involved in the process.
The priority this off-season needs to be finishing the job on the OL and front 7 on defense.
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Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
Edmunds sucks. Terrible football IQ.
The priority this off-season needs to be finishing the job on the OL and front 7 on defense.
Should we bother keeping Jones then?
We are going up against at least two other teams that are stronger in that area and people here complain how and why we cannot win division games.
We have to treat this situation the same way that the division handled the Lawrence Taylor situation. Although they failed, they had to immediately place focus on stopping the pass rush.
Unfortunately for us, we are having to fix both lines to be competitive. The good news is that our D line is not far away, we need linebackers to help support.
Philly's starting 5 consists of (L to R):
7th rounder, 2nd rounder, 6th rounder, 3rd rounder, 1st rounder.
The priority this off-season needs to be finishing the job on the OL and front 7 on defense.
I agree whole heartedly. Those other positions need help too. BPA.
Smart post. Cincy rolled Buffalo's front seven. I was stunned by how cohesive they looked.
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2-3 months from now but I suspect they won’t when they clamor for 2-3 WRs and 2 CBs in the draft.
The priority this off-season needs to be finishing the job on the OL and front 7 on defense.
Should we bother keeping Jones then?
No idea how your comment is relevant to this thread.
[quote] In comment 16008866 Sy'56 said:
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including round 1
Philly's starting 5 consists of (L to R):
7th rounder, 2nd rounder, 6th rounder, 3rd rounder, 1st rounder. [/quote
And behind them is a 1st 2nd and 4th]
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2-3 months from now but I suspect they won’t when they clamor for 2-3 WRs and 2 CBs in the draft.
The priority this off-season needs to be finishing the job on the OL and front 7 on defense.
I agree whole heartedly. Those other positions need help too. BPA.
No doubt the Giants need WR and CB help. It may just have to wait. The smart play is to wait if the trade off is OL studs, DL studs, or ILB stud.
So was Peters though he started in Buffalo. It's not about where they came from just that you stay committed to it and keep at it till you have what you need. Then keep adding at it to replace someone.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
7th rounder, 2nd rounder, 6th rounder, 3rd rounder, 1st rounder.
This is an important distinction. At some point you have to get good offensive line starters outside of round 1 and 2 or you start running a deficit on talented skill guys.
We need dt, ilb, o line
I've often wished Sy worked for the Giants.
And the last high draft pick used on an inside linebacker was Pepper Johnson.
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Colin not sure if your last question is sarcastic. If so, why? You mentioned the Eagles pass rush in your own response.
Mu belief is thats to get the best 5 on the field. That said I dont know which guys he looked at as guys who can play C.
Feliciano was the buget option. Would they have made that move if Gates was healthy? Is that the spot we target in the draft?
Bredeson played well but I would look at him as insurance at G/C and expect Ezudu to be the LG. Mckethan can hopefully comeback and be the back up RG thatvpushes Glowinski. Would expect a small deal for either Gates or Feliciano to pencil in at C before the draft.
I cant see FA being the route on the OL. Feel the first thing we need to do is spend some money on a ILB and a CB to have in place before the draft.
Jax, Buff and NYG all lost (in large part) to sub par O line play
AJ Brown and Davonta Smith make the Eagles OLine Better
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Neal needs to step up, because he wasn't even a gate last night.
Neil would benefit from a dominant RG. If I'm JS, I'm signing Dalton Risner to anchor the LG spot.
I’ll get killed for this, but I think Neal is that dominant RG. He had Cox on skates a few times on cross blocks in the run game. Maybe he’ll be a great RT, maybe he’ll just be above average. But what I do know is that I’m confident he could play at an All Pro level at RG.
Wow, are those teams (and PHI) great in the trenches, on both sides of the ball.
Way too much focus here on the backfields. The SB can’t be won without stellar OL and DL - Eagles, Cowboys and 49ers are making that obvious this weekend.
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In comment 16008848 ajr2456 said:
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Oh Really? Joe Burrow was top 6 in getting sacked this year. Today with 3 of their starters out he elevated the OL? Honestly, Not sure what your point is. I don't care if we play every single OL position as an UDFA. WE NEED BETTER LINE PLAY. Especially if we want to match up with Philadelphia and Dallas.
But there’s no denying an elite QB and elite weapons help make an offensive line’s job easier.
remember Dallas' OL in the 90s? That's what I want.
If the staff has concluded that Neal, Ezeudu, and Glowinski were mistakes, Schoen will have to start planning to move on. Meanwhile, Bobby Johnson and Co. need to coach those guys up to make them whatever they can be
But to the OL issue. Switch the OL's last night? You think Philly puts up 250 on the ground and 38 pts? Just without Johnson the Philly offense has shown to be much different.
But there’s no denying an elite QB and elite weapons help make an offensive line’s job easier.
I agree, but I don't think the elevated line play by Cincy in a shuffled line was from that. They were physically beating the Buffalo DL. That's what I saw anyway. We need better WR I agree. None of our WR would even see the field for Philly. But we also need better OL play at Center, at Guard, and at RT. Phillys DL absolutely ABUSED our OL last night.
The way we gave up yards in the run game ALL YEAR we have to address DL and ILB.
The strategy proposed in this thread makes sense given the current talent on this roster.
BPA.
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In comment 16009033 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 16008848 ajr2456 said:
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
Did you watch the game? They pretty much DOMINATED the Buffalo DL.
And they were still the backups. Part of the reason they were able to look so dominant was because of Burrow, Hurst, Chase, Higgins and Boyd
Oh Really? Joe Burrow was top 6 in getting sacked this year. Today with 3 of their starters out he elevated the OL? Honestly, Not sure what your point is. I don't care if we play every single OL position as an UDFA. WE NEED BETTER LINE PLAY. Especially if we want to match up with Philadelphia and Dallas.
Exactly, this argument is ridiculous.
Bargain bin shopping in FA for OL and using mid to late round picks on OL with zero success is what got Reese fired.
So the Giants are supposed to pass on a stud OL early in the draft simply because they’ve used high picks on a few guys already?
WRs can be found late in the draft too, and this draft looks like there’s going to be some quality WRs in the mid to late rounds.
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Plus one of the best WR groups in the league
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With three backups and an injured center. Yes it would be nice to have 5 dominant offensive lineman, but it’s the exception not the rule. The Giants have poured plenty of resources into the line, it’s time to see if they can develop.
The Eagles looked so much faster than the Giants at nearly every skill position.
CIN has the 2nd best QB in football and the slippery track helped them a ton.
Yeah it seemed like they benefited from the snow. Surprising. I was expecting Cincy to really have trouble with the OL and they came out and dominated. Crazy. Honestly on Burrow, he is my favorite QB in the league. The guy is just a winner.
Eagles have 3 REALLY good ones. Dickerson and Seamulo are okay, nothing special.
Bengals won today with 2 backup tackles and a backup guard they claimed on waivers before the season (from the Texans, of all teams)
I'd argue that some combination of Ezeudu, Bredeson, Glowinski and McKethan can be nearly an equivanlent to the Eagles guard duo.
If a really good Guard falls into the Giants laps, sure, but
its lower on my list of priorities than WR, C, LB, CB, and DL (Can't go into next season relying on Leo and Dex to play 80% of snaps again).
Would also take another pass rusher over a guard.
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Get Payne and edmunds. Might cost 22 and 15 but Ide rather get 2 studs in areas of need than a bunch of middle of the road depth pieces. Then we can load up on offense in the draft.
Edmunds seems like a great fit and not bc of the Daboll connection. I think the value is there. Sportrack has him valued at 11 mill per. You could even go a little higher and you'd be getting a lot of production for that price.
He is also only 24. That’s a lot of prime left and the exact guy you want to sign as a free agent
Positive vibes around the league for Daboll. Money talks but we are more of an attractive environment to play in now.
If the staff has concluded that Neal, Ezeudu, and Glowinski were mistakes, Schoen will have to start planning to move on. Meanwhile, Bobby Johnson and Co. need to coach those guys up to make them whatever they can be
I can one up this. In an orderly, predictable universe, Snee and Diehl actually last as effective players until 2017 and we've probably just replaced Beatty - and who knows what the rest of the team looks like because Nicks and Cruz never get hurt meaning we maybe draft Donald in 2014 instead of Beckham.
^THIS
C is a special position along the line. They have to make the line calls, be able read and adjust more than any other line position. I've long argued that C is the 2nd most important line position.
Choose better players over the course of a 5 year span
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including round 1
Philly's starting 5 consists of (L to R):
7th rounder, 2nd rounder, 6th rounder, 3rd rounder, 1st rounder.
Pats won a lot of games with a 6th round QB
What is your point?
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In comment 16008866 Sy'56 said:
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including round 1
Philly's starting 5 consists of (L to R):
7th rounder, 2nd rounder, 6th rounder, 3rd rounder, 1st rounder.
Pats won a lot of games with a 6th round QB
What is your point?
John Michael Schmitz
Olu Oluwatimi
Luke Wypler
Jarrett Patterson
Ricky Stromberg
One of these guys needs to be a Giant
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
What does contending mean? Being a top team or making the playoffs? If it’s the former than they certainly need better talent. But if it’s the latter they are already there, and will likely be better next year.
Given Jones’ improvement this season, expected improvement from rookie OLs next year, plus the draft and free agency, I think that they can be in the mix next year. Can they hang with the Eagles & Cowboys? We’ll see what the team looks like next year.
The fact that they overachieved this season is a positive. Yet sometimes I think people see it as a negative.
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and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
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and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
What does contending mean? Being a top team or making the playoffs? If it’s the former than they certainly need better talent. But if it’s the latter they are already there, and will likely be better next year.
Given Jones’ improvement this season, expected improvement from rookie OLs next year, plus the draft and free agency, I think that they can be in the mix next year. Can they hang with the Eagles & Cowboys? We’ll see what the team looks like next year.
The fact that they overachieved this season is a positive. Yet sometimes I think people see it as a negative.
My personal definition? You're winning your division and finishing as a top-3 seed in the conference.
Giants need to look at trading down in RD 1 to accumulate more 2nd-4th rd picks. We are needing and 86, 89 type draft here.
I know your schedule is incredibly busy, but would love to get your insight on this.
Thanks for all the great work you do!
It will cost a lot to have 5 dominant OL. Not saying it is a bad idea but how do you pay a #1 WR and have a defense if that much money is allocated to the OL. They could do it on rookie contracts and then let the guys walk as freeagents.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Years? I disagree too. Look at the Bengals, they were 2-14 in 2019. I never buy the multi year builds in the NFL. Bengals are a great example.
The Giants are in the second tier of NFC teams behind PHI, DAL & SF imo.
If you think they are years away, you should just come out and say they should let Jones walk. Because look at Burrow and the Bengals.
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
Is it too early to see a potential concern here?
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
The good news(in a sense) is that they still need more quality players at several positions then they can draft. So whomever(BPA) is available at #25 is likely an improvement over what is already on the team.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
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In comment 16009303 Sy'56 said:
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and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
They don’t need a perfect roster to be a contender.
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In comment 16009303 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
"A few key pieces" is what I mean
A corner (maybe 2), another pass rusher (maybe 2), two or three receivers, 1 or 2 OL, 1 or 2 LB.
All in one offseason....right as they are about to pay a RB, QB, OT, and DT a combined....$80-90 million per year?
I know they are closer than they were last year - but looking at SF, PHI, KC, CIN, BUF...the contrast in overall roster quality and depth is enormous. They are heading in the right direction, but odds are everyone will need to look at 2 more years of personnel movement, not one.
And that 2 years is *if* they make the right personnel decisions in free agency, the draft, and re-signing/extending their own players each year (most of the time).
in the NFL - just my opinion - this is the hardest leap to make (from mediocre to contender - consistent contender), and if you fail to make it you wind up back on the bottom or in NFL team purgatory where you are not good enough to contend but also not bad enough to add the best impact players.
Based on the 2022 draft I have faith that the front office will do their job. The And now that Schoen has cap space he can sign free agents.
I know your schedule is incredibly busy, but would love to get your insight on this.
Thanks for all the great work you do!
I lined up a couple things this week. Aiming for game review being out Tuesday, and Jones thoughts Thursday / Friday. Offseason plan in the coming weeks.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
Could be an interesting thread to follow live!
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and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Years? I disagree too. Look at the Bengals, they were 2-14 in 2019. I never buy the multi year builds in the NFL. Bengals are a great example.
The Giants are in the second tier of NFC teams behind PHI, DAL & SF imo.
If you think they are years away, you should just come out and say they should let Jones walk. Because look at Burrow and the Bengals.
Burrow is the 2nd best QB in football and they picked the best WR prospect we have seen in years. In the top 5.
Tough to use that as a comparison.
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
Is it too early to see a potential concern here?
Too early? Yes.
A guy like Neal needs at least 2 years to show progress. And again to repeat myself from last summer -
2023 will be the first time Neal plays the same position 2 years in a row since he was in high school
Joe Burrow is one reason. But when you get a coaching staff that can coach, they can take players that people thought were deficient and clean them up. Then they got Ja'mar Chase on top of Tee Higgins...Many of the pieces were there. Just had to be tuned up.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
Colin, unfortunately we are closer to the same page than you think. WR is my top need for NYG. CB is second. Pass rusher is 3rd.
But I bring up OL because if there is the right value, I am going in the direction. I will not overlook OL just because I need a WR more. A team like NYG needs to take value where it is given. My point of that tweet was simple.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better.
If you want to use CIN as an example - show me where Burrow and Chase are.
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Sy,
I have gotten a lot of grief once I started expressing concerns about Neal when his preseason trait of “falling down” kept repeating throughout the season. To my eye, it’s a 6’7” super athlete having balance/footwork issues that aren’t being corrected, even slightly, throughout the season. I know rookie OL tend to struggle Year 1, but something is concerning me about Neal. Yes, I know he had a knee injury, but this problem existed well before the MCL injury and there were whispers before the draft he might be top heavy.
Is it too early to see a potential concern here?
Too early? Yes.
A guy like Neal needs at least 2 years to show progress. And again to repeat myself from last summer -
2023 will be the first time Neal plays the same position 2 years in a row since he was in high school
Thanks. I always had it in my head RT could come in as a rookie mauler and still be modestly successful. Perhaps I expected too much from Neal as he has looked awful to me, at times I wished for Solder back at RT.
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
All of those are homers moves
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The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
All of those are homers moves
Thank you. These next 2 drafts are huge for Schoen.
Guilty. Neal had some very rough games to watch, even keeping in mind he is a rookie.
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The Eagles were 4-11-1 in 2020. Everyone felt they were tanking going into 2021. Massive dead cap number for Wentz. What happened? How are they now one of the most loaded rosters in the NFL?
Jalen Hurts takes over at QB
Maileta takes over at LT
Seumalo missed most of 2020 - injury
Dickerson drafted
Trade up for Devonta Smith
Trade for AJ Brown
All of those are homers moves
Lane Johnson, Jason Kelce, Brandon Graham, and Fletcher Cox reverse course and continue to play at a high level
Gettleman's salary cap gaffe causes Bradberry to end up in Philly
Saints gift Philadelphia a top 10 pick in the upcoming draft
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That’s nuts
Guilty. Neal had some very rough games to watch, even keeping in mind he is a rookie.
Rookie OL’s struggle - that is nothing new. At least Neal can run block. Solder was always terrible.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
The Cowboys had him ranked near the top of their draft board. People need to be patient.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
That team was 1 corner, 2 defensive lineman, 3 linebackers, and a safety away on defense.
Offense is a little trickier, four of the five starting lineman where in place. Barber, Tyree, and Shockey started, and were replaced for various reasons by 2007.
Point being, sometimes teams build up to a window. I think this team is in a similar place.
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For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Sy, not a WR, but would Mayer help at #25...He could be highest rated player on the board.
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offseason plans should be (e.g. current roster FA/ERFA/etc, Free Agent targets, and potential draft targets)?
I know your schedule is incredibly busy, but would love to get your insight on this.
Thanks for all the great work you do!
I lined up a couple things this week. Aiming for game review being out Tuesday, and Jones thoughts Thursday / Friday. Offseason plan in the coming weeks.
That's great SY! I'm looking forward to reading these.
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In comment 16009403 Colin@gbn said:
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For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Sy, not a WR, but would Mayer help at #25...He could be highest rated player on the board.
Kincaid would make more sense
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For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
'
My reference to Burrow / Chase was in relation to the NYG roster
I am aware a combo of Burrow and Chase would do wonders for any team. My point is - neither are walking through that door. And it would be silly to think they are finding Chase at #25 overall or anywhere near it.
Dave: That's kind of what I thought. Of course, it is unlikely that the Giants will find a guy as good as Chase at #25, but I believe it is incumbent on them to come out of this draft with THE best receiver they can get. And if they were to go with a BPA at another position - and I would certainly look long and hard at an OG like Torrence if he was available, he's that good - then I think they would almost have to trade back up to get one of Hyatt, Tillman, Rice, Downs, or Flowers.
Sy, not a WR, but would Mayer help at #25...He could be highest rated player on the board.
Kincaid would make more sense
Thanks
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prime picks on them you better get it right. Jury is still out on Schoen with Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
I didn't mean to imply that they were all prime picks. I'm just wondering how good Schoen is at evaluating OL. If he's good, then one or two of those guys will work out and our needs won'dt be as great. If he's not so good, we may have Gettleman redux
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In comment 16008854 Bill in UT said:
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prime picks on them you better get it right. Jury is still out on Schoen with Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan.
Neal the only one a “ prime pick”. Others are late 3 and 5th
Plus I will see who develops first. Ezeudu showed glimpes but holes too
mckethan? Who knows. Think he looked OK in practices
No issue taking a flyer on another OL over first 3rds. Along with the 7 other’s positions we need
I didn't mean to imply that they were all prime picks. I'm just wondering how good Schoen is at evaluating OL. If he's good, then one or two of those guys will work out and our needs won'dt be as great. If he's not so good, we may have Gettleman redux
I'm not saying he's DG. I'm only referring to OL pickups
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
I would rather have the OL Colin. Hurts when pressured has not been good. That OL is a big reason why that OL clicks. It's all part and parcel though... I just feel like it seems tougher to build a dominant line.
Oh, and get a LB or two that can help stop the run.
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For the record, I believe Burrow and Chase are on their way to KC to play in the AFC championship.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Here's the deal though. You keep the Eagles OL and give me Brown and Smith and we'll see.
I would rather have the OL Colin. Hurts when pressured has not been good. That OL is a big reason why that OL clicks. It's all part and parcel though... I just feel like it seems tougher to build a dominant line.
Johnny et al: One of my rules for analyzing sports is don't make judgments about a player or team based on one game. The sample size is just too small. The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8.
On the other hand, their top two WRs combined for 2,700 yards, 18 TDs and 41 big plays. Our top two guys (and I realize they didn't play as many snaps) had 1,300 yards, 6 TDs and 15 big plays. You do the math.
WR's maybe but usually 4 is the reg/max
I think it’s very possible that next year’s team will be a better team with a worse record. All we can do is put our faith in the Schoen/Daboll partnership and trust that they identify the right players in the draft and FA.
Neal is key....and let's hope off season development.....a year removed has Gates playing center at a higher level. They figure out the guards.....no one doubts a decent OL is vital. A mystery....of 10+ years....the Giants have a ton of bodies.....get more....but please figure it out.
A stud WR is a must.....maybe Collins continues impressing....Hodgins and W.Robinson do better as 3rd and 4th options at WR. I wanted Pickens.
Can the Giants just get lucky....for once
I don’t know if it’s the biggest need, but they do need another DL to go with Lawrence and Williams,
If the Giants don't get at least one alpha WR and another alpha CB on staff (we need at least two of each) their ability to play with the big boys is going to be severely limited.
The Bengals have Joe Burrow. Jones might have improved this year, but he is not Burrow.
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Johnny et al: One of my rules for analyzing sports is don't make judgments about a player or team based on one game. The sample size is just too small. The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8.
There are also other stats aren't there? About how often Hurts was pressured vs Jones?
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You just need players to be able to perform.
The Bengals have Joe Burrow. Jones might have improved this year, but he is not Burrow.
The Bengals were playing an elite team. You saw what happened to Mahomes in the Super Bowl vs Tampa Bay.
And did Joe Burrow also help block in the running game? Cincis RB's ran for 138 yards.
This. We have to let the guys we drafted develop. The Eagles dominant oline wasn’t built in a year.
There are A LOT of needs on this team, using all of our premium assets on the OL wouldn’t be wise IMO.
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Dave: sounds like you and I could get a pretty good debate going all on our own. I have a somewhat different take. One doesn't want to discount the importance of the IOL and LB but in the end those positions don't win games. And my sense is that with some combination of the young guys they already have on the IOL and maybe a couple mid-range FAs for depth (if #s 76 and 64 don't come back) they'll be good enough upfront. I'd also be tempted to bring in a vet FA OT for depth and competition for Neal especially if he doesn't pick it up. Same story at LB.
But the best teams in the NFL do one of two things: they almost all throw the ball really well or disrupt the other team's pass offense. I really think that the key for the Giants going forward is just how good the DL can be because their is a ton of potential. Think the Giants won ten games this year with Williams, Thibo and Ojulari combining for just 11 sacks when quite literally each has the potential to post that many on their own. As I have said elsewhere I would be sorely tempted to go after someone like USC's Tuipulotu either in the first or by trading up in the 2nd if I went WR in the first. He could play a DE in early downs to give you a whole lot more size upfront and then kick inside on passing downs.
But most importantly give me a couple of good receiving options either however you do it and combined with Jones, Saquon and Bellinger we would have a very competitive offense to boot.
I really believe its going to fun going forward in these next 3-4 years.
Colin, unfortunately we are closer to the same page than you think. WR is my top need for NYG. CB is second. Pass rusher is 3rd.
But I bring up OL because if there is the right value, I am going in the direction. I will not overlook OL just because I need a WR more. A team like NYG needs to take value where it is given. My point of that tweet was simple.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better.
If you want to use CIN as an example - show me where Burrow and Chase are.
If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
I think it’s very possible that next year’s team will be a better team with a worse record. All we can do is put our faith in the Schoen/Daboll partnership and trust that they identify the right players in the draft and FA.
In particular also at WR. In particular also the DL not getting pressure. In particular maybe a RB if SB goes. In particular another very good quality CB.
If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
Buffalo traded their LT to get an elite QB, so I find it hard to believe Schoen would pass up a top end WR in the draft to take oline if the players are rated similarly
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
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wrong that doesn't have to mean using premium draft picks.
Giants have already spent a #4 and #7 overall pick and 2 3rd round picks, just from the current roster on the OL.
At some point you have to get OL contribution from value picks.
The Eagles and Cowboys have invested more in their olines and it shows.
The Eagles have NOT invested more in their offensive line than the Giants. That is categorically false.
The Eagles have just acquired better offensive line talent than the Giants (using lesser resources), and developed/retained those players to form a dominant offensive line. But if you're just looking at the resources invested in the offensive line, the Giants have spent more FA money and draft picks on the OL than the Eagles.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
These factors impact all NFL teams, don't they?
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Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
These factors impact all NFL teams, don't they?
It does. The impact is not the same for every team though and the variable with it is coaching and how the offense plays from a schematic point of view.
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
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In comment 16010026 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Certainly a valid consideration regarding a systemic issue identifying good OL.
Two other things I think have contributed to it. The college game and the newer CBA. The college game has moved to a lot of spread and more exotic pass offenses. More WR's are now seen but how OL are being developed has also changed.
The CBA has very restrictive rules with hitting and practice time. I don't this helps either.
These factors impact all NFL teams, don't they?
It does. The impact is not the same for every team though and the variable with it is coaching and how the offense plays from a schematic point of view.
Then I would argue that teams should play whatever scheme minimizes those factors since that seems to represent an opportunity for a significant competitive advantage. It would seem to be the height of stubbornness to insist on running a system (in any industry) where your feeder system does not provide adequate manpower and talent.
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
If NYG can get an OL like PHI - every player on that team works better. PHI built that think for years and then in a matter of 2 years they trade up for a round 1 WR and then trade a 1st rounder for an established WR. They have the best OC in the game and just drafted his replacement. PHI is a team that knows their OL is making everyone else look better....
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
Agreed. And keep churning / bettering the bottom of the roster.
He'd go a long way to adding more of a presence at the LOS, too. He's got the added benefit of helping the blocking and adding a weapon.
And to suggest that they were able to produce this Dominate Passing Attack but with average All-Pro/Pro Bowl guys pass protecting along the way.
I wish we had those kind of average guys.
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
they have 2 stud 1k+ yard first round WRs who cost 1st round picks. giants have 0.
they have 4 10+ sack DL. 2 got 10m+ aav as FA, 1 first rd pick, 1 4th rd pick. giants may have 2 or 3 already but a lot less depth.
they have one of if not the best OL in football. nyg have invested but need more.
they have 2 big $ stud corners. nyg have 1.
last year the nyg used their first 5 (day 1/2) draft picks on DL, OL, WR, OL, CB.
they have 4 day 1/2 picks this year and it wouldnt be a surprise if they pick each of these 4 positions in whatever order value lines up best.
im sure they will hit all 5 spots in UFA also whether it's 1 year deals or multi-year deals.
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
And I asked the question of somebody above. I give you the choice: you can have the Eagles OL or Brown and Smith. Think about it.
So facing one of the upper tier fronts Philly's OL would help this challenge. First reason is I would still be able to run the ball. In the fewer poor down/distance scenarios I feel that OL would offer Jones better protection to allow our more limited WR's to work open. The overall running success would help create balance and keep D's guessing with both options more open.
From a team perspective this would help the D with our limitations on that side. I think having a offense that could hold the ball longer TOP/play count would give them a better chance to maximize the talent they have.
Big Facts!!
Of course you use the whole season. Nobody's debating that one game tells all.
But surely would put more stock in assessing/comparing various OLs by more than simply sacks allowed and yards/carry.
Ton of metrics available, all pointing to the underlying support an OL provides an offense including but not limited to: total first downs, 3rd and 4th down conversion %s, yards produced per play, pressures and hurry %s, points produced, etc. And if you want to also utilize your eyes and watch NYG and Philly throughout the season, that would be fine as well.
No one should ever suggest that Philly doesn't have stronger WRs and that they also contribute to the above metrics. But to claim that the NYG and Eagle OLs are "comparable" (or that the Eagles OL is average) because they are both within 5 sacks allowed from one another is simply comical.
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If the Giants don't get a number 1 WR next year (or excellent TE), and especially if SB goes, then next year no one should complain about how bad the offense will look.
OLinemen do not do wonders with awful skilled players surrounding them and a non-elite QB.
Buffalo traded their LT to get an elite QB, so I find it hard to believe Schoen would pass up a top end WR in the draft to take oline if the players are rated similarly
+1
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
I don't agree how you are representing this at all. Philly OL was definitely dominant. Isn't Philly among the lowest in in being hurried/knocked down?
If they are and you add that to how they run the ball and overall the team passed for over 4,000 yards how can this be construed as "not dominant" or "only 1 game?"
And by the way, Philly had TWO dominant games against the Giants. And overall the Giants defense wasn't that bad, was it?
We aren't 5-6 great players away. We have a core. We need 1-2 difference makers. 1-2 of those make the world of difference.
We are much further away that you represent. Much further. I'd wish you would be right but imo you're way off.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
Should be a really cool off-season
I was heartened by Joe Scheon's comments today. I took them to mean he knows how weak the middle of the Giants OL and DL/ILBs are and that those positions are the top priority to upgrade this off season.
The above is your quote. Apologies if we took you out of context that you weren't indeed comparing the two team's OLs but it seemed fairly obvious.
Also would suggest if you all are collecting that many numbers to analyze this topic, that boiling OL assessment all down to just Sacks and Yards/Carry is the definition of cherry-picking.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
Should be a really cool off-season
Again IMO I don't agree with how you are representing things. You did compare the two teams OLInes - this is what you said
"The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8."
How is that not a comparison?
Further you are the one cherry-picking the sack stat only and ignoring "hurries/knockdowns" etc. Then you are throwing out there the one stat you want highlight and ignore others and end your comment with a comment "to what end." How is hurries and knockdowns not important and only sacks is?
So what you are doing - that's cherry-picking.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
The issue this year was Jones often faced pressure from the inside and outside against better teams imv.
Agree on the pass rushers and the edge. What also helps that is stopping the run so they get more opportunities to create havoc. That was another very problematic area.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
+1 overall her Colin. I agree with you enitriely on this. Yes they need WR's. That';s huge goign forward.
As far as stats I got this from ESPN though tit's only 16 games.
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Hurts in 14 games got knocked down 22 times. And he got hurried 34 times. I prorated everything and the Eagles are near the top.
Jones had to deal with brutal numbers. 53 knockdowns and 49 hurries plus his sack numbers.
Giants need a number 1 WR badly.
The Kncokdows
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
I can get behind the way you have it stated here. I thought sure we were going to be running Devonta Smith out for us every week, so that hurts even more. I guess my final comment would be... Instead of choosing between the Philly OL or their WRs... can I have a guy or two from both squads? :)
With that said, Schoen is best served to focus on the highest value positions when considering the usage of the Day 1 & Day 2 picks for this year and forseeable future. That typically means (assuming DJ is at least tagged) WR, CB, Edge Rusher and OT.
It doesn't mean ILB, DT, Interior OL and TE units don't need investment or shouldn't be in play when our early picks come around and a special prospect is sitting at the top (or very close to) of the board at one or more of these positions. That's when your tiered approach needs to have some discriminating factors that help drive the GM to the overall best pick for the situation.
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Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
I agree LoS, but I am projecting some steps forward for Neal at RT with his rookie year under his belt.
The flip side is having a dominant front on Defense. We have 2 dominant DTs with no true DEs or OLBs. We have EDGE, which may be the trend, but 2 EDGE and 2 DTs isn't stopping the run and it wasn't consistent in getting pressure either. I think a tweak to the scheme to incorporate more traditional fronts is needed. We don't have the DEs for a 3-4 and we certainly don't have the LBs. That includes OLB. I'm sorry, but LT and Banks weren't EDGE, they were OLB and there is a difference.
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and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
Not predicting how this will go but there are options....
Cap currently is third in NFL space at around 60M
Some notable potential options for further space...
Leo extension 13.5M
Golladay cut 13.5M
Adoree extension 8M
Lawrence extension 9M
Current cap 60M which can go up to a quite robust 104M with all 4 of those moves. 80-90 with 2 or 3.
Spitballing here and they probably won't do all this but they could fit it under the cap conceivably....or maybe they accomplish the top 4 on the list and go bargain shoping for the rest?
1.Barkley 10M 2023 cap hit
2.Jones 22M 2023 cap hit (For reference Daks was 19M 1st year)
3.Trade for a bigtime wide reciever est. Cap hit 25M
4. Sign a CB off the market Byron Jones, Jamal Dean, Peters, 15-18M
5. Another Offensive lineman with OT/OG versatility 12-15M
6. ILB upgrade to hold the fort until Beavers, McFadden are ready 8M
Go BPA in the draft at the remaining higher need positions.
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
Maybe the reason we rushed for more yards per carry than Philly is because we have Barkley and they don't.
Not every player who played well this year is going to play as good or better next year. They might even get hurt and miss a season.
Not every rookie drafted is going to fix their position.
Not every player who played poorly this year is going to be fixed next year
Smart operators hope for the best and prepare as if you're set for the worst.