I never said the Giants and Eagles OLs were comparable. I said their baseline stats were comparable because they are! Maybe there are other stats out there that show there is a much wider discrepancy that somebody can cherry pick but to what end. And again I just find it hard to believe that a team that is 13th in the league in yards per rush and 22nd in sacks allowed has a 'dominant' OL. Those numbers just don't compute.
Quote:
"I analyze seasons and I don't believe the numbers lie. That's why we collect numbers. And in the baseline numbers on the season as a whole there wasn't a ton of difference between the productivity of the two OLs."
The above is your quote. Apologies if we took you out of context that you weren't indeed comparing the two team's OLs but it seemed fairly obvious.
Also would suggest if you all are collecting that many numbers to analyze this topic, that boiling OL assessment all down to just Sacks and Yards/Carry is the definition of cherry-picking.
I never said the Giants and Eagles OLs were comparable. I said their baseline stats were comparable because they are! Maybe there are other stats out there that show there is a much wider discrepancy that somebody can cherry pick but to what end. And again I just find it hard to believe that a team that is 13th in the league in yards per rush and 22nd in sacks allowed has a 'dominant' OL. Those numbers just don't compute.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
Should be a really cool off-season
Again IMO I don't agree with how you are representing things. You did compare the two teams OLInes - this is what you said
"The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8."
How is that not a comparison?
Further you are the one cherry-picking the sack stat only and ignoring "hurries/knockdowns" etc. Then you are throwing out there the one stat you want highlight and ignore others and end your comment with a comment "to what end." How is hurries and knockdowns not important and only sacks is?
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
Nothing suggests he needs a push from a attitude or effort standpoint but they need to get better production from that spot regardless and having capable backups in the event of injury should be a goal regardless. You have insurance in case he doesn't advance.
The issue this year was Jones often faced pressure from the inside and outside against better teams imv.
Agree on the pass rushers and the edge. What also helps that is stopping the run so they get more opportunities to create havoc. That was another very problematic area.
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
+1 overall her Colin. I agree with you enitriely on this. Yes they need WR's. That';s huge goign forward.
As far as stats I got this from ESPN though tit's only 16 games.
Hey, you guys got other stats put 'em out there. The two I quoted are not cherry picked, they are baseline stats (in fact they are the only OL related stats on ESPN for example). And in those stats - the only ones I actually looked at - there wasn't a ton of difference.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
I can get behind the way you have it stated here. I thought sure we were going to be running Devonta Smith out for us every week, so that hurts even more. I guess my final comment would be... Instead of choosing between the Philly OL or their WRs... can I have a guy or two from both squads? :)
Putting aside the overriding concept that GMs draft players
not positions for a minute. And not to downplay what improvement was seen this year on the field, but this is still a fairly comprehensive rebuilding process the NYG are smack dab in the middle of.
With that said, Schoen is best served to focus on the highest value positions when considering the usage of the Day 1 & Day 2 picks for this year and forseeable future. That typically means (assuming DJ is at least tagged) WR, CB, Edge Rusher and OT.
It doesn't mean ILB, DT, Interior OL and TE units don't need investment or shouldn't be in play when our early picks come around and a special prospect is sitting at the top (or very close to) of the board at one or more of these positions. That's when your tiered approach needs to have some discriminating factors that help drive the GM to the overall best pick for the situation.
Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
I agree LoS, but I am projecting some steps forward for Neal at RT with his rookie year under his belt.
It's so true and why a day later I have been re-thinking my take on OL
I had been saying they return a healthy Ezeudu, McKethan, Bredeson, Feliciano, and Gates to compete for the 3 interior positions and draft an interior OL in the first 3 rounds. I think if Feliciano is moved off OC and the 3 best at those respective positions win out, we will have a good OL. But, we need a great OL.
The flip side is having a dominant front on Defense. We have 2 dominant DTs with no true DEs or OLBs. We have EDGE, which may be the trend, but 2 EDGE and 2 DTs isn't stopping the run and it wasn't consistent in getting pressure either. I think a tweak to the scheme to incorporate more traditional fronts is needed. We don't have the DEs for a 3-4 and we certainly don't have the LBs. That includes OLB. I'm sorry, but LT and Banks weren't EDGE, they were OLB and there is a difference.
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
Not predicting how this will go but there are options....
Cap currently is third in NFL space at around 60M
Some notable potential options for further space...
Leo extension 13.5M
Golladay cut 13.5M
Adoree extension 8M
Lawrence extension 9M
Current cap 60M which can go up to a quite robust 104M with all 4 of those moves. 80-90 with 2 or 3.
Spitballing here and they probably won't do all this but they could fit it under the cap conceivably....or maybe they accomplish the top 4 on the list and go bargain shoping for the rest?
1.Barkley 10M 2023 cap hit
2.Jones 22M 2023 cap hit (For reference Daks was 19M 1st year)
3.Trade for a bigtime wide reciever est. Cap hit 25M
4. Sign a CB off the market Byron Jones, Jamal Dean, Peters, 15-18M
5. Another Offensive lineman with OT/OG versatility 12-15M
6. ILB upgrade to hold the fort until Beavers, McFadden are ready 8M
Go BPA in the draft at the remaining higher need positions.
I really wish people would disabuse themselves of this notion that the Eagles have a dominant OL. Sure they had a dominant game against the Giants on the weekend, but on the season they were very average allowing 44 sacks (just 5 fewer than the Giants) while they averaged 4.6 yards in the run game LESS than the Giants did (4.8).
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
Maybe the reason we rushed for more yards per carry than Philly is because we have Barkley and they don't.
Hope for the best, but actually prep like the worst could happen.
The above is your quote. Apologies if we took you out of context that you weren't indeed comparing the two team's OLs but it seemed fairly obvious.
Also would suggest if you all are collecting that many numbers to analyze this topic, that boiling OL assessment all down to just Sacks and Yards/Carry is the definition of cherry-picking.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. The fact is the Eagles were not 14-3 this year and are hosting the NFC championship game Sunday because of their OL. It is because of their terrific defense and explosive playmakers. And if people can't see that well there is nothing more I can say on the topic. The one thing I can guarantee if you asked all 32 GMs in the league whether they'd rather have the Eagles OL or their skill people it'd be 32-0 in a heart beat for the latter.
Should be a really cool off-season
Again IMO I don't agree with how you are representing things. You did compare the two teams OLInes - this is what you said
"The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8."
How is that not a comparison?
Further you are the one cherry-picking the sack stat only and ignoring "hurries/knockdowns" etc. Then you are throwing out there the one stat you want highlight and ignore others and end your comment with a comment "to what end." How is hurries and knockdowns not important and only sacks is?
So what you are doing - that's cherry-picking.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
The issue this year was Jones often faced pressure from the inside and outside against better teams imv.
Agree on the pass rushers and the edge. What also helps that is stopping the run so they get more opportunities to create havoc. That was another very problematic area.
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
+1 overall her Colin. I agree with you enitriely on this. Yes they need WR's. That';s huge goign forward.
As far as stats I got this from ESPN though tit's only 16 games.
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Hurts in 14 games got knocked down 22 times. And he got hurried 34 times. I prorated everything and the Eagles are near the top.
Jones had to deal with brutal numbers. 53 knockdowns and 49 hurries plus his sack numbers.
Giants need a number 1 WR badly.
The Kncokdows
But its totally beside the point. I couldn't care less about trying to compare the Giants and Eagles OLs. In fact I couldn't care less about the Eagles OL. And to take a page out of Joe Schoen's presser earlier today I am pretty much done with 2022 and I'm onto 2023.
That said, there is no question that the Giants need to upgrade the OL. Quite simply 49 sacks and a QB hit rate of 25% are way too high. However, my own sense is that the Giants should be able to work something out in the middle of the OL with some combination of the young guys they have and maybe adding a couple of vet FA (if 76 and 64 don't return.) My greater concern would be Neal who was drafted 5th overall to lock down RT but too often looked more like he was leading the jailbreak! Might not be a bad idea to also consider adding a mid-priced vet OT as a little insurance at the position.
However, that said, the Giants can add all the Pro Bowl OL in the world and they are not going to compete with the elite teams until they get some explosive playmakers in the passing game and get a little more disruptive defending the pass because that's the way the NFL is played these days. The good news in the latter regard is that we do have some talent on the DL (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to add more) and can they get healthy and play to their potential.
I can get behind the way you have it stated here. I thought sure we were going to be running Devonta Smith out for us every week, so that hurts even more. I guess my final comment would be... Instead of choosing between the Philly OL or their WRs... can I have a guy or two from both squads? :)
With that said, Schoen is best served to focus on the highest value positions when considering the usage of the Day 1 & Day 2 picks for this year and forseeable future. That typically means (assuming DJ is at least tagged) WR, CB, Edge Rusher and OT.
It doesn't mean ILB, DT, Interior OL and TE units don't need investment or shouldn't be in play when our early picks come around and a special prospect is sitting at the top (or very close to) of the board at one or more of these positions. That's when your tiered approach needs to have some discriminating factors that help drive the GM to the overall best pick for the situation.
Quote:
Jerry Reese called, he says he wants his assessment Back
LOL
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, I mean none of our WR would start for Philly. Every robust position on an offense helps to make it go. But you are way undervaluing that Philly OL. Comparing them to the Giants OL is ludicrous. Just Kelce alone is a HUGE boon to that offense. They completely shut down our defense. They could have not thrown a pass all game and probably still dropped 31 points on us. If we add a stud center and a true #1 WR we are a different team on offense.
I think the Neal versus Johnson is a much bigger difference and impact. Agree with your general conclusion. When you watch the games you don't see the same OL's whatever the stats say.
I agree LoS, but I am projecting some steps forward for Neal at RT with his rookie year under his belt.
The flip side is having a dominant front on Defense. We have 2 dominant DTs with no true DEs or OLBs. We have EDGE, which may be the trend, but 2 EDGE and 2 DTs isn't stopping the run and it wasn't consistent in getting pressure either. I think a tweak to the scheme to incorporate more traditional fronts is needed. We don't have the DEs for a 3-4 and we certainly don't have the LBs. That includes OLB. I'm sorry, but LT and Banks weren't EDGE, they were OLB and there is a difference.
Quote:
and look at this conversation alone. And reflect on / realize how far away they are from a credible contending roster.
"Anything can happen" I know I know
But this is why I think they're yearS away
Couldn’t disagree more, my friend.. a few key pieces, this coaching staff..No reason why we can’t contend next season. How far we go is always dependent on the usual disclaimers
Not predicting how this will go but there are options....
Cap currently is third in NFL space at around 60M
Some notable potential options for further space...
Leo extension 13.5M
Golladay cut 13.5M
Adoree extension 8M
Lawrence extension 9M
Current cap 60M which can go up to a quite robust 104M with all 4 of those moves. 80-90 with 2 or 3.
Spitballing here and they probably won't do all this but they could fit it under the cap conceivably....or maybe they accomplish the top 4 on the list and go bargain shoping for the rest?
1.Barkley 10M 2023 cap hit
2.Jones 22M 2023 cap hit (For reference Daks was 19M 1st year)
3.Trade for a bigtime wide reciever est. Cap hit 25M
4. Sign a CB off the market Byron Jones, Jamal Dean, Peters, 15-18M
5. Another Offensive lineman with OT/OG versatility 12-15M
6. ILB upgrade to hold the fort until Beavers, McFadden are ready 8M
Go BPA in the draft at the remaining higher need positions.
What the Eagles did have was a ridiculously dominant defence that had 4 guys with 11 or more sacks (we had none) and 70 sacks overall. They also forced 17 INTs - we had 6. They also had a dominant passing attack with two receivers with over 1,200 receiving yards and 18 TD receptions between them, more than we had total. They also had 41 big plays between them whereas the Giants had a team total of 28.
Maybe the reason we rushed for more yards per carry than Philly is because we have Barkley and they don't.
Not every player who played well this year is going to play as good or better next year. They might even get hurt and miss a season.
Not every rookie drafted is going to fix their position.
Not every player who played poorly this year is going to be fixed next year
Smart operators hope for the best and prepare as if you're set for the worst.