out of this and realize Barkley is a KNOWN commodity- good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is a sometimes soft running style and a long history of getting injured.
Was Barkley more effective earlier in the season when Jones was running a lot? Could be. Did Barkley become a bit more worn down, less explosive after the Houston game with a large number of carries? He sure the heck did.
When you are putting a roster together you have to balance it all out. Look at the Eagles, are any of their backs in Barkley's class as far as talent goes? heck no. BUT, their Oline, their TE's, their WR's are all top notch and thus those backs are even better than their overall talent would suggest. The Giants can save a LOT of money with by employing a committee type approach at RB ( Breida, Brightwell, draft choice etc) and use more money for TE help, WR help and maybe another Olinemen.
Saquon ran hard this yr, barely any soft stuff.
That being said, a contract that 3 yrs and less than 30 million may be as far as I would go
May be better off using that money towards front 7 or IOL
Chris Bisignano said it was apparent some of the Giant secondary didn't give the best effort on Saturday (specifically Adoree Jackson). He said Schoen sat behind him during the game and was visibly upset. He's sure Schoen saw what he saw regarding the effort.
Hell of an accusation to accuse guys of not trying
So as long as no one has the balls to call it out when it happens, it's cool? I don't think so. I saw the same thing, so did those i watched with. For some of them, beating the Vikings was good enough.I'm glad it isn't for management.
I find it hard to believe this group of guys just quit in a playoff game after how hard they’ve played all year. But whatever helps you sleep at night. Did Jones quit too?
They got out classed by a better team. It happens.
RE: Smart teams do not commit a ton of money to RBs
because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
Agreed. I think they are much more willing to have Barkley test the FA market than Jones. Love the way Barkley played this year. His effort was outstanding and he certainly seemed to have regained the burst and speed he had before the ACL. But he had additional injuries this year, and the shelf life for RBs is short.
They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
RE: Smart teams do not commit a ton of money to RBs
because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
15m
Joe Schoen doesn't believe that you're ever "one player away."
Good to hear. I get really tired of hearing that. You add talent when you can; when it's available. You don't wait until you're supposedly "one player away" to, for example, trade for a difference making WR (getting the right value is another story). When you think you really are just "one player away", will that player be available?
Do you miss out on a playoff run like '07 because you didn't sign the FA WR in '05 (because you were supposedly not "one player away" at the time)?
They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
Sounds logical. Agreed.
RE: RE: Smart teams do not commit a ton of money to RBs
because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
They got Sanders in the bottom half of round 2. I think they can find another RB around then again to replace him.
IMO, good O linemen are more important to the rushing attack than good RBs.
They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
I dont think they use the exclusive tag on him.
Tend to agree.
RE: RE: RE: Smart teams do not commit a ton of money to RBs
because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
They got Sanders in the bottom half of round 2. I think they can find another RB around then again to replace him.
IMO, good O linemen are more important to the rushing attack than good RBs.
Agreed...
People say that the QB is a force multiplier...
The OL is really the force multiplier. THey make the ground game better, they make the QB better who in turn makes receivers better...
They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
I dont think they use the exclusive tag on him.
It all depends on how they view DJ and what his ceiling is. He can get better and I think they feel the same. At the same time I wouldn't be comfortable breaking the bank for him and they aren't either.
Saving $13 million and scooping 2 first round picks is great unless you let a legitimate franchise QB go who has proven capable of handling NY and now you need to find another. They don't grow on trees.
Based on what I saw today Schoen and Daboll really like Jones, he's proven to have a very strong mental makeup and his actual play has gotten much better. He's currently not worth $40 mil but if they use the exclusive tag that tells you they feel he can get there.
I'm not arguing its the 100% right move, I like the idea of the non exclusive tag and finding a way to get CJ Stroud and pair him with Daboll. What he did against Georgia was extremely impressive. Very difficult for us to get from 25 to top 5 though.
Exclusive/Non-Exclusive comes down to what they think Jones can ultimately be...using exclusive tells me they are all in on him and I'd be ok with that b/c I think Daboll knows what a really good QB is and isn't.
Evaluating talent is hit or miss, regardless of who your evaluators are.
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
It’s hard posting a take in the minority and getting yelled at by people. What can I say it’s something I believe in. I usually provide facts or good evidence — yet it angers some of you or forces some to come at me and twist my words to make them sound looney.
All I said was don’t give up on the core of talent here simply because we’re not in the elite class of teams yet. And I called out the Dak takes as a little crazy.
THAT is unacceptable? Tough crowd.
I'm just skimming, but I think you responded to someone who said we should tear it down and rebuild. I'm with you in not wanting a total rebuild. Why would we do that? We have a core of a pretty young team that just went to the 2nd rd.
I trust JS and Daboll to resign the guys they want at the best deals possible, though I wouldn't be shocked if Barkley ends up elsewhere and we draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd. Not saying I necessarily want that, I just wouldn't be shocked.
out of this and realize Barkley is a KNOWN commodity- good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is a sometimes soft running style and a long history of getting injured.
Was Barkley more effective earlier in the season when Jones was running a lot? Could be. Did Barkley become a bit more worn down, less explosive after the Houston game with a large number of carries? He sure the heck did.
When you are putting a roster together you have to balance it all out. Look at the Eagles, are any of their backs in Barkley's class as far as talent goes? heck no. BUT, their Oline, their TE's, their WR's are all top notch and thus those backs are even better than their overall talent would suggest. The Giants can save a LOT of money with by employing a committee type approach at RB ( Breida, Brightwell, draft choice etc) and use more money for TE help, WR help and maybe another Olinemen.
You also get worse at RB. And what WR are you paying all that saved money to? Where is he? He aint in 2023 FA I can tell you that.
Barkley made some of the biggest plays in that WC win at Minny. He also had 2 big TDs. Are you sure he wore down?
He carried the ball 9 times and honestly the one run was a good cut back but he was pretty much unscathed on the way to endzone. You prove my point.
Interesting comparison:
259 car- 1269 yds- 11 tds 4.9 ypc
vs
295 car- 1312 yds - 10 tds 4.4 ypc
The first numbers are Miles Sanders and the second Saquan's numbers. If you can get similar production from a "lesser" talent and improve multiple areas, you have improved your team.
The Giant Insider Newspaper & Podcast
@GiantInsider
·
22m
I asked Schoen about Barkley—“I would like to have him back but we have to work with salary cap rules. Need to step back and take emotions out of it and see if it works for both of us”
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
This is the answer that has me most excited. It's exactly the mindset I am hoping the Giants have with Saquon. Specifically that he is noting that they have to take the emotions (to me - sentiment) out of it and evaluate this based on a cold hard look at salary cap implications for giving significant money to this particular player/position. There's a right number for this player and then there's paying a great ambassador of the Giant product (especially through some very lean years) too much based on episodic production that he becomes increasingly less likely to match with each year that passes.
Saquon's comments on not resetting the market are a start. I do think the franchise tag could be a possibility if they can get Jones done quickly. Otherwise, I am expecting Saquon to test the market but maybe give us a chance to match given his preference of staying. If he does, I suspect someone will offer more than we're willing to pay.
RE: RE: Smart teams do not commit a ton of money to RBs
because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
Austin Ekeler makes $6M a year. It's interesting you mention the Cowboys, who drafted Elliot very high but use Pollard (a 4th round pick) a lot more and he's on his rookie contract. Would I call that smart, no I would not. Who is smart? The Eagles, who's starter is a 2nd rounder on his rookie deal or the Chiefs with McKinnon on a one year deal and Pacheco on his rookie deal. On and on. The 9ers bought a Ferrari after they built the rest of the roster. Good for them. Most teams can't afford it, or would be better off devoting those resources elsewhere.
RE: Schoen needs to show more patience with drafting
Evaluating talent is hit or miss, regardless of who your evaluators are.
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
Just because someone gets injured doesn't mean they are injury prone. Wandale was coming on and then got injured, and Ezeudu was a rookie OL. I don't see a torn ACL as being indicative of someone who is injury prone. It means MetLife's surface needs to be replaced.
In terms of production, they got good production from Bellinger, and some contributions from Flott and Belton. If there was one player who underperformed it was McFadden. KT had pretty decent production. Yes, Neal was a work in progress but switching from LT to RT is not as easy as everyone seems to think it is.
The other draft picks were injured (torn ACLs) and missed the entire season.
The main point I took away from the rookie class is that Schoen needs to change the playing surface at MetLife. Other teams play in indoor stadiums with many less injuries. Clearly that says something.
the key is the two #1 picks and having right of refusal should another team sign him. I would still want to see more from Jones with upgrades around him before committing to a market dollars multi-year deal.
RE: The non-exclusive tag should be plenty for Jones
the key is the two #1 picks and having right of refusal should another team sign him. I would still want to see more from Jones with upgrades around him before committing to a market dollars multi-year deal.
This is the right answer, and I hope frankly contract talks stall and this is the outcome.
It's a super 5th year option (~31.5M vs ~23M).
This is classic trust but verify operating procedure stuff. If Schoen holds his line here, I am very impressed.
If I were a GM, I'd commission a sign for my office: "No 100M dollar mistakes."
the only risk with the non-exclusive tag is in the future
next year if they decide they want to extend they'd be in a situation where they'd have to tag him at like 45m and that's your starting point for AAV.
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
First time at being in the big seat and I thought he handled things well. Seems the type who will grow from here from the experience. Big hope is he does a better job finishing the OL to a much higher level than what they had in the Bills and a defense that can play in the playoffs and handle the better teams that can run the ball.
His experience in the NFCE hopefully taught him its a bit different here in the NFCE and you better have the outstanding fronts to be in contention.
yessir, the giant cap-hit will mean making more tough decisions for 2023, but I suspect they know what they have right now and half the roster could turn over during the next few months. Change is coming fast and they wouldn't be able to (or want) to retain everyone.
RE: RE: The non-exclusive tag should be plenty for Jones
the key is the two #1 picks and having right of refusal should another team sign him. I would still want to see more from Jones with upgrades around him before committing to a market dollars multi-year deal.
This is the right answer, and I hope frankly contract talks stall and this is the outcome.
It's a super 5th year option (~31.5M vs ~23M).
This is classic trust but verify operating procedure stuff. If Schoen holds his line here, I am very impressed.
If I were a GM, I'd commission a sign for my office: "No 100M dollar mistakes."
+2.
RE: the only risk with the non-exclusive tag is in the future
next year if they decide they want to extend they'd be in a situation where they'd have to tag him at like 45m and that's your starting point for AAV.
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
If Jones has a breakout year next season that truly establishes him as a franchise QB, they will probably not mind very much paying market rate. That's a risk, but if they 'lose', they still win.
...it sounds like the big multi-year DJ contract may not be happening. Schoen appears to be approaching the off season instead with the level headed restraint necessary to improve this roster. Very glad to hear this and assume he will use the non-exclusive franchise tag if they can't come to terms on a modest contract. After the Eagles game, the exclusive franchise tag should be off the table. And while it is highly doubtful that anyone will give us two first round picks on top of a significant pay day for DJ, if they do, we wish DJ well and move on.
Unfortunately, as a result of using the tag on DJ, there is a very good chance Barkley will not be signed. I cannot see Schoen signing him to a Zeke Elliott contract and there is no way Barkley should accept anything less given his injury history and his limited opportunity to get paid at this point in his career. Barkley is simply more valuable to a team with a loaded roster just missing an elite running back like the Bills. I have heard the sound byte by Saquon indicating he will be reasonable in terms of a contract, but he will seek the best contract he can get in free agency.
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
13m
Joe Schoen: "You shop hungry, you overpay."
If they give Jones $40M/yr they're shopping hungry. It will be the worst contract in the history of the NFL and it will go right around Schoen's neck.
I mean they aren't going to do that.
1. Fair market long term deal
2. Non Exclusive Tag to either recoup picks/save money or make sure his improvements continue before a long term commitment
3. Exclusive Tag if they are extremely bullish on him and feel he can be a surefire top 10 quarterback but want to see another year of production before long term commitment
That Jones is going to be back and they’ll use the non exclusive franchise tag if they need to. They both referenced the business side, I’m not so sure they come to a long term agreement. I think Team Jones has a number as does Schoen. Team Jones will want the value of the tag over 3-4 years and I just don’t think this regime is there with him.
All of this makes the Barkley negotiation much more challenging without the tag. I think there is a solid chance Barkley walks. He’s not getting CMC money nor should he.
RE: RE: the only risk with the non-exclusive tag is in the future
next year if they decide they want to extend they'd be in a situation where they'd have to tag him at like 45m and that's your starting point for AAV.
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
If Jones has a breakout year next season that truly establishes him as a franchise QB, they will probably not mind very much paying market rate. That's a risk, but if they 'lose', they still win.
it is but it's also the exact same logic that declined the 5yo last year - which i thought was the right call bc just as your logic follows i didn't mind paying 9m more if jones had a good year. so even though they may pay 9m more they did get something out of it, a good year, while hedging against a bad one. but most complained about the tag being an overpayment and some probably still do even though that's the minimum he's going to make this year whether it's with the nyg or someone else.
jones contract is probably the last thing anyone needs to worry about because at this point it seems pretty likely he's going to be here and it's clear we have a good group making the decision off a lot of good firsthand evaluation. it's going to be a big # no matter what because all starting QBs are so wherever they net out they net out whether it's the tag or an extension. its going to be a hard negotiation because in some ways jones' leverage grows by playing on the tag this year and getting 1 year closer to true UFA as opposed to rushing into an extension that could be under market quickly.
Appeared only lukewarm on the idea, though that's probably posturing.
I wouldn't mind having Barkley back at the right price, but I suspect Daboll/Schoen/Kafka have their preferences, based on their previous teams: spend the $ on buffing up the lines and having a stable of solid, cost-efficient RBs. The goal is to be like the Eagles and Niners, where you can plug and play RBs. Easier said than done, of course.
I think Barkley was great for what this offense had this year, but I can't help thinking how fun it would be to trot out different types of runners behind a stout O-line: the battering ram, the speed back, etc. Being less reliant on one bellcow can also mitigate against any fall-off due to injuries.
RE: RE: I found it far more interesting the words used on discussing Barkley
Appeared only lukewarm on the idea, though that's probably posturing.
I wouldn't mind having Barkley back at the right price, but I suspect Daboll/Schoen/Kafka have their preferences, based on their previous teams: spend the $ on buffing up the lines and having a stable of solid, cost-efficient RBs. The goal is to be like the Eagles and Niners, where you can plug and play RBs. Easier said than done, of course.
I think Barkley was great for what this offense had this year, but I can't help thinking how fun it would be to trot out different types of runners behind a stout O-line: the battering ram, the speed back, etc. Being less reliant on one bellcow can also mitigate against any fall-off due to injuries.
Agree. Outstanding OL's can support multiple backs. Giants used to be like that. Then they couldn't. The major culprit was not the backs but the OL.
SB does offer some unique skills. He could go on to never face the injury bug again but.....
RE: Schoen needs to show more patience with drafting
Evaluating talent is hit or miss, regardless of who your evaluators are.
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
This post is wrong on so many different levels. I can't be a***d to get into an argument. I would point out that it contains neither the word "coaching" nor "development."
about Saquon by commenting on is production are I feel missing the point.
It's a structural matter: paying top dollar for a running back is just not worth it, unless you are Christian McCaffrey. Schoen is looking for value for money, including by position.
It will be the likes of the Jets who've flopped on two 1st round top 10 picks, the Panthers and Commanders who've tried to half ass it in FA, the Colts who have a cokehead behind the wheel and even the a team like the Falcons or Seahawks who may take a chance at a legit starting QB without the 'rolling of the dice' in the draft. In my heart I want Barkley back because besides being one of the talented playmakers on the team and league, he seems like a genuinely nice guy who works his ass off and is about team first. I'm not in the camp that has Hodgins as a must resign. Hes a better option at WR3 than Slayton. I think signing Love is important but we aren't at a point where we can break the bank for any player as we aren't one player away. After watching the Eagles disassemble us, I am now more of the opinion than ever of building the lines MORE. Depth at DL as well as another Edge (AO can't get on the field). Upgrade the talent at IOL(I think we have depth pieces in Gates Brederson and perhaps Lemieux as well as). I am looking forward to Beavers coming back, but my wish list has a stud ILB in the top three spots of needs. Add CB and we really dont have a position we don't need to fill this offseason.....
about Saquon by commenting on is production are I feel missing the point.
It's a structural matter: paying top dollar for a running back is just not worth it, unless you are Christian McCaffrey. Schoen is looking for value for money, including by position.
Was Barkley more effective earlier in the season when Jones was running a lot? Could be. Did Barkley become a bit more worn down, less explosive after the Houston game with a large number of carries? He sure the heck did.
When you are putting a roster together you have to balance it all out. Look at the Eagles, are any of their backs in Barkley's class as far as talent goes? heck no. BUT, their Oline, their TE's, their WR's are all top notch and thus those backs are even better than their overall talent would suggest. The Giants can save a LOT of money with by employing a committee type approach at RB ( Breida, Brightwell, draft choice etc) and use more money for TE help, WR help and maybe another Olinemen.
Saquon ran hard this yr, barely any soft stuff.
That being said, a contract that 3 yrs and less than 30 million may be as far as I would go
May be better off using that money towards front 7 or IOL
Humans being human, not surprised to note the repetition of expression.
@nyknicks
The foundation is set. Now it’s time to work.
4:30 PM · Sep 24, 2021
nyk twitter - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16009915 aimrocky said:
Quote:
Chris Bisignano said it was apparent some of the Giant secondary didn't give the best effort on Saturday (specifically Adoree Jackson). He said Schoen sat behind him during the game and was visibly upset. He's sure Schoen saw what he saw regarding the effort.
Hell of an accusation to accuse guys of not trying
So as long as no one has the balls to call it out when it happens, it's cool? I don't think so. I saw the same thing, so did those i watched with. For some of them, beating the Vikings was good enough.I'm glad it isn't for management.
I find it hard to believe this group of guys just quit in a playoff game after how hard they’ve played all year. But whatever helps you sleep at night. Did Jones quit too?
They got out classed by a better team. It happens.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
Agreed. I think they are much more willing to have Barkley test the FA market than Jones. Love the way Barkley played this year. His effort was outstanding and he certainly seemed to have regained the burst and speed he had before the ACL. But he had additional injuries this year, and the shelf life for RBs is short.
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
I dont think they use the exclusive tag on him.
This year was an outlier.
@art_stapleton
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13m
Joe Schoen: "If you shop hungry, then you overpay and it's a bad deal, you have buyer's remorse." #Giants
This is the way BBI shops, ALL the time. We wouldn't have any cap space in 2023 if it was up to many here.
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
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15m
Joe Schoen doesn't believe that you're ever "one player away."
Good to hear. I get really tired of hearing that. You add talent when you can; when it's available. You don't wait until you're supposedly "one player away" to, for example, trade for a difference making WR (getting the right value is another story). When you think you really are just "one player away", will that player be available?
Do you miss out on a playoff run like '07 because you didn't sign the FA WR in '05 (because you were supposedly not "one player away" at the time)?
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
Sounds logical. Agreed.
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because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
They got Sanders in the bottom half of round 2. I think they can find another RB around then again to replace him.
IMO, good O linemen are more important to the rushing attack than good RBs.
Do you use a scalpel or a computer for "Rocket Surgery"?
Do you need to get a medical degree and a PhD in physics to be one of those?
LOL
Talk about mixing your metaphors...
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They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
I dont think they use the exclusive tag on him.
Tend to agree.
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In comment 16010386 mikeinbloomfield said:
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because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
They got Sanders in the bottom half of round 2. I think they can find another RB around then again to replace him.
IMO, good O linemen are more important to the rushing attack than good RBs.
Agreed...
People say that the QB is a force multiplier...
The OL is really the force multiplier. THey make the ground game better, they make the QB better who in turn makes receivers better...
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They have a number for Jones and if he wants more they'll franchise tag him, pay him over $40 and basically say "If you prove it to us we'll gladly pay that".
Jones would obviously make really good money but lose long term security and he has had injuries.
They want him here regardless but he'll need to prove he deserves $40 mil by making it and playing up to it. If he regresses you saved yourself the contract.
wouldn't they just use the non-exclusive tag and save 13 or so million and be happy with getting two firsts if jones gets an offer well north of 31 million AAV?
I dont think they use the exclusive tag on him.
It all depends on how they view DJ and what his ceiling is. He can get better and I think they feel the same. At the same time I wouldn't be comfortable breaking the bank for him and they aren't either.
Saving $13 million and scooping 2 first round picks is great unless you let a legitimate franchise QB go who has proven capable of handling NY and now you need to find another. They don't grow on trees.
Based on what I saw today Schoen and Daboll really like Jones, he's proven to have a very strong mental makeup and his actual play has gotten much better. He's currently not worth $40 mil but if they use the exclusive tag that tells you they feel he can get there.
Exclusive/Non-Exclusive comes down to what they think Jones can ultimately be...using exclusive tells me they are all in on him and I'd be ok with that b/c I think Daboll knows what a really good QB is and isn't.
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
It’s hard posting a take in the minority and getting yelled at by people. What can I say it’s something I believe in. I usually provide facts or good evidence — yet it angers some of you or forces some to come at me and twist my words to make them sound looney.
All I said was don’t give up on the core of talent here simply because we’re not in the elite class of teams yet. And I called out the Dak takes as a little crazy.
THAT is unacceptable? Tough crowd.
I'm just skimming, but I think you responded to someone who said we should tear it down and rebuild. I'm with you in not wanting a total rebuild. Why would we do that? We have a core of a pretty young team that just went to the 2nd rd.
I trust JS and Daboll to resign the guys they want at the best deals possible, though I wouldn't be shocked if Barkley ends up elsewhere and we draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd. Not saying I necessarily want that, I just wouldn't be shocked.
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Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
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13m
Joe Schoen: "You shop hungry, you overpay."
If they give Jones $40M/yr they're shopping hungry. It will be the worst contract in the history of the NFL and it will go right around Schoen's neck.
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out of this and realize Barkley is a KNOWN commodity- good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is a sometimes soft running style and a long history of getting injured.
Was Barkley more effective earlier in the season when Jones was running a lot? Could be. Did Barkley become a bit more worn down, less explosive after the Houston game with a large number of carries? He sure the heck did.
When you are putting a roster together you have to balance it all out. Look at the Eagles, are any of their backs in Barkley's class as far as talent goes? heck no. BUT, their Oline, their TE's, their WR's are all top notch and thus those backs are even better than their overall talent would suggest. The Giants can save a LOT of money with by employing a committee type approach at RB ( Breida, Brightwell, draft choice etc) and use more money for TE help, WR help and maybe another Olinemen.
You also get worse at RB. And what WR are you paying all that saved money to? Where is he? He aint in 2023 FA I can tell you that.
Barkley made some of the biggest plays in that WC win at Minny. He also had 2 big TDs. Are you sure he wore down?
He carried the ball 9 times and honestly the one run was a good cut back but he was pretty much unscathed on the way to endzone. You prove my point.
Interesting comparison:
259 car- 1269 yds- 11 tds 4.9 ypc
vs
295 car- 1312 yds - 10 tds 4.4 ypc
The first numbers are Miles Sanders and the second Saquan's numbers. If you can get similar production from a "lesser" talent and improve multiple areas, you have improved your team.
@GiantInsider
·
22m
I asked Schoen about Barkley—“I would like to have him back but we have to work with salary cap rules. Need to step back and take emotions out of it and see if it works for both of us”
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
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This is the answer that has me most excited. It's exactly the mindset I am hoping the Giants have with Saquon. Specifically that he is noting that they have to take the emotions (to me - sentiment) out of it and evaluate this based on a cold hard look at salary cap implications for giving significant money to this particular player/position. There's a right number for this player and then there's paying a great ambassador of the Giant product (especially through some very lean years) too much based on episodic production that he becomes increasingly less likely to match with each year that passes.
Saquon's comments on not resetting the market are a start. I do think the franchise tag could be a possibility if they can get Jones done quickly. Otherwise, I am expecting Saquon to test the market but maybe give us a chance to match given his preference of staying. If he does, I suspect someone will offer more than we're willing to pay.
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because the chances of getting value back are low. RBs get hurt (unless everyone forgets, Barkley played the majority of this year with a shoulder injury) and the difference between a good RB and a great one are too small in terms of winning to justify the expense.
Barkley knows this, and he knows Schoen definitely knows this. Based on his comments yesterday, he'll take what the Giants are handing out, unless some other team overwhelms their offer.
I hate to keep arguing this but this isn't really true. Define smart? Is Dallas smart? They sure know how to draft and they do win. Philly paid plenty of Rbs over the years, and they likely will pay Sanders when he hits Fa. The niners just traded a bunch of shit for CMC and he gets paid a lot. THE NINERS. Chargers and Ekeler--he gets paid. So many more.
I'm like a broken record and most just either ignore me or say I am nuts. You can do the same but it would be nice if people at least acknowledged that teams do pay the RB. Sure it's a risk...they still pay them.
Austin Ekeler makes $6M a year. It's interesting you mention the Cowboys, who drafted Elliot very high but use Pollard (a 4th round pick) a lot more and he's on his rookie contract. Would I call that smart, no I would not. Who is smart? The Eagles, who's starter is a 2nd rounder on his rookie deal or the Chiefs with McKinnon on a one year deal and Pacheco on his rookie deal. On and on. The 9ers bought a Ferrari after they built the rest of the roster. Good for them. Most teams can't afford it, or would be better off devoting those resources elsewhere.
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
Just because someone gets injured doesn't mean they are injury prone. Wandale was coming on and then got injured, and Ezeudu was a rookie OL. I don't see a torn ACL as being indicative of someone who is injury prone. It means MetLife's surface needs to be replaced.
In terms of production, they got good production from Bellinger, and some contributions from Flott and Belton. If there was one player who underperformed it was McFadden. KT had pretty decent production. Yes, Neal was a work in progress but switching from LT to RT is not as easy as everyone seems to think it is.
The other draft picks were injured (torn ACLs) and missed the entire season.
The main point I took away from the rookie class is that Schoen needs to change the playing surface at MetLife. Other teams play in indoor stadiums with many less injuries. Clearly that says something.
This is the right answer, and I hope frankly contract talks stall and this is the outcome.
It's a super 5th year option (~31.5M vs ~23M).
This is classic trust but verify operating procedure stuff. If Schoen holds his line here, I am very impressed.
If I were a GM, I'd commission a sign for my office: "No 100M dollar mistakes."
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
His experience in the NFCE hopefully taught him its a bit different here in the NFCE and you better have the outstanding fronts to be in contention.
It's still a risk. But because they did an excellent job of building that roster, they earned the right to that luxury.
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the key is the two #1 picks and having right of refusal should another team sign him. I would still want to see more from Jones with upgrades around him before committing to a market dollars multi-year deal.
This is the right answer, and I hope frankly contract talks stall and this is the outcome.
It's a super 5th year option (~31.5M vs ~23M).
This is classic trust but verify operating procedure stuff. If Schoen holds his line here, I am very impressed.
If I were a GM, I'd commission a sign for my office: "No 100M dollar mistakes."
+2.
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
If Jones has a breakout year next season that truly establishes him as a franchise QB, they will probably not mind very much paying market rate. That's a risk, but if they 'lose', they still win.
Unfortunately, as a result of using the tag on DJ, there is a very good chance Barkley will not be signed. I cannot see Schoen signing him to a Zeke Elliott contract and there is no way Barkley should accept anything less given his injury history and his limited opportunity to get paid at this point in his career. Barkley is simply more valuable to a team with a loaded roster just missing an elite running back like the Bills. I have heard the sound byte by Saquon indicating he will be reasonable in terms of a contract, but he will seek the best contract he can get in free agency.
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In comment 16010312 Eric from BBI said:
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Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
13m
Joe Schoen: "You shop hungry, you overpay."
If they give Jones $40M/yr they're shopping hungry. It will be the worst contract in the history of the NFL and it will go right around Schoen's neck.
I mean they aren't going to do that.
1. Fair market long term deal
2. Non Exclusive Tag to either recoup picks/save money or make sure his improvements continue before a long term commitment
3. Exclusive Tag if they are extremely bullish on him and feel he can be a surefire top 10 quarterback but want to see another year of production before long term commitment
All of this makes the Barkley negotiation much more challenging without the tag. I think there is a solid chance Barkley walks. He’s not getting CMC money nor should he.
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next year if they decide they want to extend they'd be in a situation where they'd have to tag him at like 45m and that's your starting point for AAV.
Lamar, Hurts, Burrow, Herbert could all be extended at 50m+ plus by then. if Jones has another season better than Kyler, instead of his price being below Kyler's 46m as it probably is now it probably jumps up above.
im not saying that as a reason to rush into a deal more than they think he's worth, i've expected a tag since midseason. just as a warning bc in some ways it would be like declining the 5yo again. if the nyg really like him it would be better to get him on what is essentially a 3 year deal with options for years 4/5 right now than going year to year which will be 10-25% more expensive in cap hits after this year.
If Jones has a breakout year next season that truly establishes him as a franchise QB, they will probably not mind very much paying market rate. That's a risk, but if they 'lose', they still win.
it is but it's also the exact same logic that declined the 5yo last year - which i thought was the right call bc just as your logic follows i didn't mind paying 9m more if jones had a good year. so even though they may pay 9m more they did get something out of it, a good year, while hedging against a bad one. but most complained about the tag being an overpayment and some probably still do even though that's the minimum he's going to make this year whether it's with the nyg or someone else.
jones contract is probably the last thing anyone needs to worry about because at this point it seems pretty likely he's going to be here and it's clear we have a good group making the decision off a lot of good firsthand evaluation. it's going to be a big # no matter what because all starting QBs are so wherever they net out they net out whether it's the tag or an extension. its going to be a hard negotiation because in some ways jones' leverage grows by playing on the tag this year and getting 1 year closer to true UFA as opposed to rushing into an extension that could be under market quickly.
I wouldn't mind having Barkley back at the right price, but I suspect Daboll/Schoen/Kafka have their preferences, based on their previous teams: spend the $ on buffing up the lines and having a stable of solid, cost-efficient RBs. The goal is to be like the Eagles and Niners, where you can plug and play RBs. Easier said than done, of course.
I think Barkley was great for what this offense had this year, but I can't help thinking how fun it would be to trot out different types of runners behind a stout O-line: the battering ram, the speed back, etc. Being less reliant on one bellcow can also mitigate against any fall-off due to injuries.
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Appeared only lukewarm on the idea, though that's probably posturing.
I wouldn't mind having Barkley back at the right price, but I suspect Daboll/Schoen/Kafka have their preferences, based on their previous teams: spend the $ on buffing up the lines and having a stable of solid, cost-efficient RBs. The goal is to be like the Eagles and Niners, where you can plug and play RBs. Easier said than done, of course.
I think Barkley was great for what this offense had this year, but I can't help thinking how fun it would be to trot out different types of runners behind a stout O-line: the battering ram, the speed back, etc. Being less reliant on one bellcow can also mitigate against any fall-off due to injuries.
Agree. Outstanding OL's can support multiple backs. Giants used to be like that. Then they couldn't. The major culprit was not the backs but the OL.
SB does offer some unique skills. He could go on to never face the injury bug again but.....
He took Ezeudu and WanDale early and really got almost zero production from them.
WanDale did flash but the reason he was projected in the third round is that his diminutive stature and style of play suggests he will be injury prone. Just like KT.
Sometimes you have to wait on a guy and see if he drops. That allows you to draft someone who might not project as high but is going to give you more production overall.
I still like a lot of the guys Giants drafted but other than KT they did not really get production out of any of the picks. And even KT flashed more than he provided overall production.
This post is wrong on so many different levels. I can't be a***d to get into an argument. I would point out that it contains neither the word "coaching" nor "development."
It's a structural matter: paying top dollar for a running back is just not worth it, unless you are Christian McCaffrey. Schoen is looking for value for money, including by position.
@art_stapleton
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1h
My takeaways on Joe Schoen's presser. More later on
@northjersey
:
Daniel Jones will get extension
Dexter Lawrence will get extension
Giants have a number they are willing to pay Saquon Barkley and could use franchise tag to make sure he's back for 2023
Never made sense in the first place. It got some steam after the playoff win where people have their judgment clouded.
It's a structural matter: paying top dollar for a running back is just not worth it, unless you are Christian McCaffrey. Schoen is looking for value for money, including by position.
What is McCaffrey, the gold standard? lol