We discussed the prospect of a non-exclusive tag for Jones, which might cost approx $32M and if someone offered a deal to Jones and we didn't match we would net 2 first round picks.
But the Giants present cap situation is as follows (from outside reports, if any of these numbers are wildly inaccurate please let me know.)
The non-exclusive tag for Jones: approx $32M
Giants 2023 cap space: approx $54M
With Jones' tag creating an automatic $32M hold against the cap, that would leave the Giants with approx $22M in cap space.
The rookie class will cost approx $11M to sign. After signing the rookie class the Giants will have approx $11M left to plug their holes at LB, CB, WR, OG etc.
Maybe they can get another $6 to $10M through restructures but it hardly seems like enough room for Schoen to maneuver.
I have previously said the Giants have the leverage over Jones because they can just tag him if Team Jones plays hardball. But do the Giants really have the leverage in a tag situation when it leaves them so hamstrung and unable to maneuver to improve the roster? And Team Jones will know this.
It would be big gamble by Schoen to tag Jones with the idea that they can strike a deal with Jones in time to free up cap space to start making the requisite moves to improve the roster. This is where Team Jones has leverage.
For this reason, Schoen may not want to tag Jones and opt instead to arrive at a multi-year deal before it gets this far.
also cutting LW would result in 18m is savings which is why he likely will extend at a lower number and his 32m cap hit will likely be half of that.
thats over 30m from 2 moves and if Im not mistaken rookies don't count against the cap until they sign. Most sign right before or during rookie minicamp which isn't until may, so they would have a few months including the start of free agency to figure out how many contracts they would need to restructure
also cutting LW would result in 18m is savings which is why he likely will extend at a lower number and his 32m cap hit will likely be half of that.
thats over 30m from 2 moves and if Im not mistaken rookies don't count against the cap until they sign. Most sign right before or during rookie minicamp which isn't until may, so they would have a few months including the start of free agency to figure out how many contracts they would need to restructure
good to know and to add to the mix. Cutting KG is a no-brainer. Cutting LW would be a bit of an earthquake, but maybe necessary in a Jones tag situation.
So you think between KG (cut), LW (cut), and AJ (restr) they are there?
I don't think so, but not certain.
You can never have too many threads on the strategic questions presented by the non-exclusive tag.
Just wondering how he thinks he can build a “team around him” if he’s on the tag.
Yeah, gotta check with BillT before you post anything. He's the man! If you don't believe it, just ask him.
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We now have a whole separate thread. Look, you can get Sean and bw to agree with you I’ll agree as well.
Yeah, gotta check with BillT before you post anything. He's the man! If you don't believe it, just ask him.
Oh, did I upset you. Producer didn’t seem upset. Didn’t take you for the sensitive type.
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In comment 16011217 BillT said:
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We now have a whole separate thread. Look, you can get Sean and bw to agree with you I’ll agree as well.
Yeah, gotta check with BillT before you post anything. He's the man! If you don't believe it, just ask him.
Oh, did I upset you. Producer didn’t seem upset. Didn’t take you for the sensitive type.
Yes Bill...you constantly upset me.
They show Golladay has $4.5M roster bonus that kicks in if he’s on the team on the third day of the league year. Not sure, but that may negate any benefits of a post June 1st designation. So his release may only generate 6.7M
That said, they certainly have the ability to tag DJ. How much room that leaves to improve the roster is obviously limited. But you’re not improving the roster without a QB.
They show Golladay has $4.5M roster bonus that kicks in if he’s on the team on the third day of the league year. Not sure, but that may negate any benefits of a post June 1st designation. So his release may only generate 6.7M
That said, they certainly have the ability to tag DJ. How much room that leaves to improve the roster is obviously limited. But you’re not improving the roster without a QB.
Spotrac doesn’t show that bonus as taking effect with a post June 1st release.
Link - ( New Window )
Giants can restructure LW's base salary and shift part of his $18M base salary into 2024 void year. That plus cutting KG will net another $20M in cap space in 2023.
The 5th year option on Jones would have been fully guaranteed at $21-22M, and the difference between the Franchise Tag and 5th year option on Jones is $10M. The Giants can put the Franchise Tag on Jones when FA starts and they will need to allocate $32M for the top 51, but he still has to sign the tender for it to become fully guaranteed otherwise that money can be freed up by either rescinding the Franchise Tag or Extending Jones on a multi-year deal before start of the 2023 season. The Giants are in the driver seat from a negotiation POV.
My expectation is that Jones would rather have a 3-4 year deal that gives him more than $32M guaranteed and the Giants will want a deal that is structured to give them flexibility to move on after 2 years.
Dak : 49 million
Big difference when you back end contracts. Dak’s 2024 cap hit in last year of his contract 52 million
Dak : 49 million
Big difference when you back end contracts. Dak’s 2024 cap hit in last year of his contract 52 million
It’s a business
Oh!! Then Dak got his big deal in his 6th year…no hard feelings
Why would they be late 1st round picks? More than likely the team signing Jones would be bad teams with high draft picks...
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It's a significantly lower number than the exclusive tag and I really think they need to be careful with Jones. If they do tag him with the ET, I think he's as good as gone and we run the risk of getting 2 late firsts for Jones which would suck.
Why would they be late 1st round picks? More than likely the team signing Jones would be bad teams with high draft picks...
I said they run the risk of them being late firsts. I would think teams that have high picks would be a little hesitant to sign Jones to massive money and give up 2 firsts, therefore its possible that a team later in the draft finds it a good value. For example.....Seahawks or Tampa. They may say...we won't be able to draft someone at 20, so they'll sign Jones.
If this is not possible, I agree with the OP that the narrative of "just franchise him" is not nearly as much of a fait accompli as I had been thinking. If Schoen can't add enough talent around him to properly evaluate DJ's performance in this the franchise tag year, than what is the point of franchising him? We will be right back here next year asking the same exact question.
I don’t think there’s any other contract structure features
If this is not possible, I agree with the OP that the narrative of "just franchise him" is not nearly as much of a fait accompli as I had been thinking. If Schoen can't add enough talent around him to properly evaluate DJ's performance in this the franchise tag year, than what is the point of franchising him? We will be right back here next year asking the same exact question.
Yes, this is exactly the problem with the tag. It can't be structured as a bonus and spread out, unless you supersede the tag with a multi-year contract. The entire price of the tag is a hold on the cap until a new deal is done.
It’s a business
Oh!! Then Dak got his big deal in his 6th year…no hard feelings
This is a good case study. It’s widely believed that they could have gotten better terms by signing Dak long term the year prior to him signing his deal. I think we’d see a similar situation with DJ if they do indeed end up franchising him. It’s worth noting that Dak got the exclusive tag, but the discrepancy between the exclusive and non-exclusive tag was not so large at the time.
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I had assumed you could structure the non-exclusive franchise tag like any other contract, as a bonus with voidable years to spread the cap hit over time. By adding two voidable years, for example, the cap hit this year would be approx. five percent of the cap. Yes, that creates some dead money in the two following years, but that is the price of trying to elevate the talent around DJ in his franchise tag year. Is this not the case?
If this is not possible, I agree with the OP that the narrative of "just franchise him" is not nearly as much of a fait accompli as I had been thinking. If Schoen can't add enough talent around him to properly evaluate DJ's performance in this the franchise tag year, than what is the point of franchising him? We will be right back here next year asking the same exact question.
Yes, this is exactly the problem with the tag. It can't be structured as a bonus and spread out, unless you supersede the tag with a multi-year contract. The entire price of the tag is a hold on the cap until a new deal is done.
Very helpful. Thanks for clearing this up. I am now back to my original thesis that they should tag Barkley and not go beyond a very modest bridge contract for DJ. If there is anything we have learned, especially after the Dak game on Sunday, is that paying elite dollars for non-elite quarterbacks is a recipe for certain failure.
this year has a crappy FA class and in the future Dexter Lawrence and Andrew Thomas are going to be a lot more expensive.
smarter orgs have been doing flatter contracts for some time now so this is a case where there is no downside in the tag.
this year has a crappy FA class and in the future Dexter Lawrence and Andrew Thomas are going to be a lot more expensive.
smarter orgs have been doing flatter contracts for some time now so this is a case where there is no downside in the tag.
Exactly. The notion that they’d use the FT to make DJ “prove it” is laughable. The only way we see Jones on a FT is if they can’t come to an agreement. It can also be used as a means to trade him under the tag if they can’t come to an agreement, but I think that they’d like to sign him long term rather than trade him. FT is a last resort for the team.
Thanks for clearing that up. If they need the flexibility for 23, nice to have that option. Personally, I hope they don’t have to. I’d rather take the hit now and not carry the pain into 2024.
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If Giants designate KG as June 1 cut then they will save $13.5M base salary and incur $7.9M dead money in 2023 ($3.4M prorated bonus + $4.5M guaranteed roster bonus). If Giants cut KG prior to 6/1 then the remaining $7.8M of his pro-rated signing bonus accelerates against the 2023 cap and there is only $6.7M savings.
Thanks for clearing that up. If they need the flexibility for 23, nice to have that option. Personally, I hope they don’t have to. I’d rather take the hit now and not carry the pain into 2024.
Unused cap rolls over. It’s always better to take cuts post June 1st if you have the option. It would be negligent to not take advantage of the two post June 1st cuts that you’re allowed.
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In comment 16011372 Kmed6000 said:
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It's a significantly lower number than the exclusive tag and I really think they need to be careful with Jones. If they do tag him with the ET, I think he's as good as gone and we run the risk of getting 2 late firsts for Jones which would suck.
Why would they be late 1st round picks? More than likely the team signing Jones would be bad teams with high draft picks...
I said they run the risk of them being late firsts. I would think teams that have high picks would be a little hesitant to sign Jones to massive money and give up 2 firsts, therefore its possible that a team later in the draft finds it a good value. For example.....Seahawks or Tampa. They may say...we won't be able to draft someone at 20, so they'll sign Jones.
The Giants could simply match the deal and still keep DJ.
I don't think that's a legitimate risk.
Further, it's two firsts. This year and next, and Tampa, or Seattle for that matter, could regress in 2023 making the 2024 pick a top 5 selection. We just don't know. But I don't care as much, there's still a lot of value in two first round picks, particularly where it relates to being able to move up.
The main point is that they can just match, though.
Why would they be late firsts? Who is the playoff team that will be in the Jones sweepstakes? Tampa, presumably? Most of the other teams that we could reasonably project as being in the market for DJ would not have "late firsts" to begin with, right? Am I missing something in the intent of your post?
I think that would be great comp, yes. I'm not afraid of that. Gives the Giants a ton of flexibility in the draft.
I know Hooker is older, but having 4 firsts in the next two drafts would position them well to identify and draft a franchise QB. Even if it doesn't happen in 2023, which I maintain it could.
No, it's not going to happen. I fully expect and believe DJ will be the starting QB in 2023. I also think that if the scenario you laid out came to fruition, Schoen would be well positioned to really build out this team, both in free agency and the draft, AND have the draft ammo to maneuver anywhere in the draft to get his QB of choice. Not afraid of that scenario at all.
Let's say that the Giants take two firsts from Tampa, which is probably the worst they could do in terms of the 2023 pick, but there would be potential upside on the 2024 pick - even if Tampa treads water, that pick could be in a better spot for 2024 if one of the other teams in that division makes significant progress (enough to push Tampa out of the division lead with a ~.500 record).
And that's IF they tread water. They could also take a step backwards replacing Brady with Jones and paying more for Jones than Brady was making (because not only would Tampa - or whomever - be giving up the picks to sign Jones, they'd also have to offer him a contract that the Giants wouldn't just match, so it would have to be pretty expensive to begin with and might have some intentionally unfavorable structure included as a poison pill) plus giving up their 1st round pick in the process. That could easily result in a step backward for them, too.
There are still a ton of options created by having an additional first in each of the next two drafts. One of those options could include trading out of one of the current 1sts to a team looking to sneak back into the back end of round one for the 5th year option (someone like Hooker, for example, seems more likely to be drafted late in round 1 than early in round 2, IMO - simply because of the 5th year option), and that trade could net a day 2 pick this year PLUS next year's 1st round pick. If the Giants could maneuver the potential loss of DJ to have three 1st round picks in 2024, they'd be well positioned to go chase Williams or Maye next year, if that's the direction they want to go.
That's still really risky, I admit that. And it does nothing to solve for 2023 - they'd still need to go get a bridge QB in that scenario, AND you'd still need to build all those missing elements that were already needed to help DJ out, and then some if you're going to be propping up a QB in the Dalton/Winston/Mariota range.
It's far from perfect, and there's potential downside in both the near and long term. But if someone had offered DG mid-firsts in consecutive years in return for the #6 pick originally, I'd have probably endorsed taking that offer. I don't see any reason to rule out the same offer four years later, having already had the benefit of the entire rookie contract and still getting two firsts in return for one first spent years earlier.
I'm not following how the exclusive tag would in any way widen the market for DJ. If your goal is to shop him, the NEFT would seem to be the best option. The EFT would only really make sense if you wanted to eliminate absolutely all risk of losing that player.
So with the NEFT, you are at the mercy of whichever team signs him. With the EFT, you can shop him and trade him to whatever team you want.
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I'd consider it if Jones' camp is getting silly. The other option would be the exclusive tag and then we can shop him to whoever.
I'm not following how the exclusive tag would in any way widen the market for DJ. If your goal is to shop him, the NEFT would seem to be the best option. The EFT would only really make sense if you wanted to eliminate absolutely all risk of losing that player.
If you extend the exclusive tag to Jones at $45m, that then becomes the starting point for any contract negotiations for either the Giants, or any team willing to trade for him. That’s a very slippery slope to go down with such a high number.
So with the NEFT, you are at the mercy of whichever team signs him. With the EFT, you can shop him and trade him to whatever team you want.
Not exactly, under the NEFT, the tagging team can match any offer and retain the player. That's an important factor.
Schoen does not strike me as the type that wouldn't want to put this to bed before FA starts.
Simms saying t was close. Boomer eluding to it. The asshat info here was eluding to it.
Where there is smoke there is fire.