to think we could recreate 07 and 11. That's just not happening again, Coughlin was pulling out god tier level motivational techniques, like telling his players he loves them, "All In", and Madden praising the team. Sends chills down my spine thinking about it.
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
this game was as dead as a doornail in the 1st quarter and shut it off. McKinney tripping over his feet; Love missing tackles; Neal an early turnstile; Jones looked flummoxed from the get go - tripping also(common malady that game it seemed). I may be wrong, but on the 1st qtr INT, I thought Barkley was wide open on the wheel route out of the backfield.
I wonder if the Eagles defense on Hodgins threw Jones off - Hodgins is his security blanket. If so not a good sign.
I also thought, from the little I saw, that was a weak coaching game. They were simply not ready.
Thanks so much for these reviews. I thoroughly appreciate your work.
One minor quibble. Jones did not elevate in this game. I don't disagree with what you said he didn't do. But, the James drop would've been a TD. Not Jones' fault and he would've gotten credited with finding the end zone. The other quibble is that it's Slayton's responsibility to be more physical and contest some of the balls thrown his way. Heck, we see Cee Dee Lamb and other legit WRs man up and win contested balls. Who does that for Jones?
I’ve heard some people say when the game speeds up, Jones struggles. The Eagles defense is fast and thus Jones needs to play quicker. Has he shown he’s capable of processing the game adequately against a defense like Philly?
This was a home-run draft class to this point for the front office and one of the reasons I feel optimistic moving forward. I’m not sure how many people understand just how good it was.
to think we could recreate 07 and 11. That's just not happening again, Coughlin was pulling out god tier level motivational techniques, like telling his players he loves them, "All In", and Madden praising the team. Sends chills down my spine thinking about it.
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
So you thought that all Daboll had to do was channel some TC and we beat the Eagles? Really?!! The talent level alone on the 07 and 11 teams was the key to victory. We didn’t even deserve to sniff the Eagles jock straps. I would like to try what you’re smoking
You mentioned a few kay players on the Giants didn't look 100%. What was you observation of the Eagles players? Results indicate that they were much healthier than expected. This was one of the edges Giants fans were hoping for in that game. Based on your review it was the opposite.
Haha. But the closing thoughts are well worth the read.
Pumped for your draft guides. Totally agree on all those needs and probably in that order. A true go to #1 WR is by far the biggest need. Crazy we made it as far as we did this year with WhAt we trotted out there, it cost us most when it mattered though. They need a solid FA vet and a couple new rookies at this group. DT, Edge and CB all right here as well. I think they can improve the OL in house with guys coming back healthy. Maybe look for an OC.
I think Barkley is the one guy you factor out if they can’t find $ for him. Dex, Thomas, Jones and McKinney all are such a bigger part of this teams future and more irreplaceable. They should look to bring in a RB from this class to groom to replace Barkley, a committee makes sense moving forward. I think they can tag Barkley and live with it, I know he is such a leader and vocal type, but looking at his career here it is very disappointing overall with the amount of time he has missed with injuries and just running behind a shit OL. The keys to improving this offense most importantly are going to come via the pass however, the best teams have multiple WRs that keep drives alive and break down defenses on their own. It’s much easier to scheme out a RB than it is a WR in the game today, and it’s easier to make defenses pay for taking away one key target when you have another that can consistently win 1-1 battles. Giants don’t currently have anyone that can be relied on to win their matchups, lots of work to do this offseason.
Makes for grim yet highly informative reading. Very much appreciate all your thoughts and insights.
About Daniel Jones. I am a fan of his (even before this season), and I would have been fine had he put in a mediocre performance on Saturday. But I am quite distressed at how poorly he played. It is of course unfair to criticize just one player for a game that was a complete debacle for the entire team from the coaching staff on down.
But Daniel Jones played so poorly in so many ways! He was inaccurate with his passes, his internal clock was way off, there were the turnovers (which honestly didn’t bother me so much), and the crazy sack he took when he had rolled out to his right and inexplicably “forgot” to simply throw the ball away.
Most likely Joe Schoen spends a lot to resign Daniel Jones due to all the good things he did this season, but if in 5 years time that decision does not look like a wise one I think more than just a few fans may recall how small Daniel Jones played in Philly.
Makes for grim yet highly informative reading. Very much appreciate all your thoughts and insights.
About Daniel Jones. I am a fan of his (even before this season), and I would have been fine had he put in a mediocre performance on Saturday. But I am quite distressed at how poorly he played. It is of course unfair to criticize just one player for a game that was a complete debacle for the entire team from the coaching staff on down.
But Daniel Jones played so poorly in so many ways! He was inaccurate with his passes, his internal clock was way off, there were the turnovers (which honestly didn’t bother me so much), and the crazy sack he took when he had rolled out to his right and inexplicably “forgot” to simply throw the ball away.
Most likely Joe Schoen spends a lot to resign Daniel Jones due to all the good things he did this season, but if in 5 years time that decision does not look like a wise one I think more than just a few fans may recall how small Daniel Jones played in Philly.
I won't disagree with your reaction, but as you say, a one-game sample doesn't always tell the whole story. Eli looked equally clueless and inept in his first playoff game vs Carolina. Sometimes you have a bad day and the opponent has a very good one. How you move on, as a player and a team, will write your legacy.
I don't buy that there is a real comparison to Flowers with Neal
I think Neal is a much more coachable individual, smarter than Flowers, and with way more upside
Yeah we have to hope Neal can improve. The worrying part is he showed no improvement at all throughout the season and his weakness is footwork (something that is hard to correct). What do you do if he picks up right where he left off next year? They need to have a contingency plan.
RE: I don't buy that there is a real comparison to Flowers with Neal
I think Neal is a much more coachable individual, smarter than Flowers, and with way more upside
Perhaps not but the staff should have a good idea how much is correctable with more time versus flaws that will be hard to correct. I hope if the later they bring in insurance. They need much better production from that spot imv.
I’m shocked that you found three “Studs”. Even among the guys you listed, one fell down on the opening TD of the game, another is an edge rusher who got no pass rush, and Breida touched the ball 5 times. Slim pickings.
My question for Sy would be about two passes to Darius Slayton. We all watched on Sunday when Dak Prescott underthrew a ball in the third quarter to Ceedee Lamb. Lamb slowed down, fought through a penalty by the defender, contorted his body, and made the catch. Jones underthrew the ball to Slayton and Slayton just waited for the ball to drop to him. He didn’t physically try to fight for it. On another pass thrown over the middle, Slayton didn’t really come back hard to the ball and the safety knocked it away. I seriously doubt that he’ll be back on the Giants next season, but what do you think about his future? Is he just who he is? Is there something that can be unlocked in a different role or system?
RE: I don't buy that there is a real comparison to Flowers with Neal
I think it is the best way to build a sustainable winning team. A good offensive line can make other players look better. A great offensive line can make other players look great. I am under the notion that no matter where you stand, the offensive line needs to be fed via the draft and/or free agency year after year. It is not one position. It is five. Used two first rounders on the line in recent memory? Cool. That isn’t enough if the other three spots are below average or average. Three? Not enough. Four? Maybe enough. But if you find five guys that can be considered near the top of their respective positions, your offense is going to be elite.
It does not matter if you have spent resources in the past. If those resources didn't pan out, you have to keep spending until yo have what you need. And then, you need to keep spending more, though perhaps at a lower rate, to build a pipeline to maintain the OL as a strength.
As Sy said, it is 5 position, it represent about 23% of your starting players on offense and defense. People keep saying we have spent resources, but in the draft it has been nowhere near 23%, at least before Thomas and Neal. So we have a lot of past failure to for us catch up.
RE: RE: I don't buy that there is a real comparison to Flowers with Neal
The other quibble is that it's Slayton's responsibility to be more physical and contest some of the balls thrown his way. Heck, we see Cee Dee Lamb and other legit WRs man up and win contested balls. Who does that for Jones?
Yeah, but how fair is it to expect those types of things from Slayton? Those are star qualities. He was a very late pick. That's the league telling you they don't see it likely he can play at a star level.
I have never seen Slayton play a contested catch style. He will get open on deep routes and win with speed, and he can run over the middle, again, with speed. His worst enemy is his hands. He will not do well when he has to win the fight against his hands AND outmuscle a defender.
The other quibble is that it's Slayton's responsibility to be more physical and contest some of the balls thrown his way. Heck, we see Cee Dee Lamb and other legit WRs man up and win contested balls. Who does that for Jones?
Yeah, but how fair is it to expect those types of things from Slayton? Those are star qualities. He was a very late pick. That's the league telling you they don't see it likely he can play at a star level.
I have never seen Slayton play a contested catch style. He will get open on deep routes and win with speed, and he can run over the middle, again, with speed. His worst enemy is his hands. He will not do well when he has to win the fight against his hands AND outmuscle a defender.
Slayton is a goner. With that said they need to find a similar player with wheels who can stretch the field as this offense is severely lacking in speed.
This season was a huge improvement, but that’s very much relative to being absolutely pathetic for a decade. A lot of hard work, great scouting and good luck are needed in the coming years to really compete for a championship
Given the bringing in of Brandon Brown into front office from Philly - should be interesting insight there on how they handled their OL philosophy and pass pro is the minor weakness on that interior OL (Glowinski, Bredeson are more run blocking Gs).
I think Neal is a much more coachable individual, smarter than Flowers, and with way more upside
The comparison has to do with 2 things:
The level of struggle in their rookie year
And what is causing the struggle.
As a person and as a prospect out of college - Neal is head and shoulders above Flowers. I am not going there comparison wise. It is simply about the balance, footwork, and how badly he got beat throughout the year.
One minor quibble. Jones did not elevate in this game. I don't disagree with what you said he didn't do. But, the James drop would've been a TD. Not Jones' fault and he would've gotten credited with finding the end zone. The other quibble is that it's Slayton's responsibility to be more physical and contest some of the balls thrown his way. Heck, we see Cee Dee Lamb and other legit WRs man up and win contested balls. Who does that for Jones?
Yawn. The "it's always the receiver" excuse for Jones which goes all the way back to his college days. He has a guy who can win on contested balls-Galloway. The third stringer threw Galloway a ball and it was a td. Jones refuses to even look his way. Unless you are a short slant, hook, short out receiver, I don't see where Jones can utilize you. He isn't good on patterns crossing the field, seams, or fades. He isn't particularly good on swing passes. James was wide open; a simple pass toward the sideline that 3/4 of the pro qb's can make in their sleep, is thrown flat, high and up the field. Could James have made the catch? Yep. Was the degree of difficulty raised because of the throw? Yep.
That is the maddening problem with Jones. He somehow manages to give evidence that both sides can use.
This is a huge contract decision, as Sy mentioned. Jones is a limited passer. Unless you are counting on him for 700-1000 yards rushing every year, there's a real question as to what he is worth. DC's will have all offseason to study what the Giants did, what worked against them and what didn't work. No more surprises.
would continually double down on mistakes until player/coaching careers were abruptly ended.
If Neal isn't going to thrive at OT (and it's early-I get it-I'm not saying he's not going to develop) move him to guard and solidify that spot...don't keep running him out there to get smoked at RT. Acknowledge the skill set he has look to fill the RT someone that can do the job.
is a weekly tradition here on BBI. What an awful rookie year for him. Hopefully another offseason and camp and he can be a productive player rather than a turnstyle.
Thanks Sy appreciate your time and effort all year
to think we could recreate 07 and 11. That's just not happening again, Coughlin was pulling out god tier level motivational techniques, like telling his players he loves them, "All In", and Madden praising the team. Sends chills down my spine thinking about it.
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
That roster was also easy better. Both of those teams would beat this team.
What a pleasure these reviews are each week.
Surprised the interior OL didn’t get blasted. More so, just ‘meh’. To your point, would be great to have a real strength at some of these positions (C, OG)
What a pleasure these reviews are each week.
Surprised the interior OL didn’t get blasted. More so, just ‘meh’. To your point, would be great to have a real strength at some of these positions (C, OG)
Initial thought, they sucked. Secondary view at it - they were on par / average
Tuli Tuipulotu just moved near the top of my round 1 list. We need a guy like him that can play that Jihad ward role. Play the other 5T with DT at NT and LW at the other 5, and also add a power rush element.
but looking at Daniel Jones' career under three different coaching staffs (3 HCs and 4 OCs), it's pretty clear that the Joe Judge era was bad new for Jones.
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
I wonder if the Eagles defense on Hodgins threw Jones off - Hodgins is his security blanket. If so not a good sign.
I also thought, from the little I saw, that was a weak coaching game. They were simply not ready.
Thanks so much for these reviews. I thoroughly appreciate your work.
On Jones, did Philly commit a spy to neutralize Jones on his run options?
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
So you thought that all Daboll had to do was channel some TC and we beat the Eagles? Really?!! The talent level alone on the 07 and 11 teams was the key to victory. We didn’t even deserve to sniff the Eagles jock straps. I would like to try what you’re smoking
You mentioned a few kay players on the Giants didn't look 100%. What was you observation of the Eagles players? Results indicate that they were much healthier than expected. This was one of the edges Giants fans were hoping for in that game. Based on your review it was the opposite.
Pumped for your draft guides. Totally agree on all those needs and probably in that order. A true go to #1 WR is by far the biggest need. Crazy we made it as far as we did this year with WhAt we trotted out there, it cost us most when it mattered though. They need a solid FA vet and a couple new rookies at this group. DT, Edge and CB all right here as well. I think they can improve the OL in house with guys coming back healthy. Maybe look for an OC.
I think Barkley is the one guy you factor out if they can’t find $ for him. Dex, Thomas, Jones and McKinney all are such a bigger part of this teams future and more irreplaceable. They should look to bring in a RB from this class to groom to replace Barkley, a committee makes sense moving forward. I think they can tag Barkley and live with it, I know he is such a leader and vocal type, but looking at his career here it is very disappointing overall with the amount of time he has missed with injuries and just running behind a shit OL. The keys to improving this offense most importantly are going to come via the pass however, the best teams have multiple WRs that keep drives alive and break down defenses on their own. It’s much easier to scheme out a RB than it is a WR in the game today, and it’s easier to make defenses pay for taking away one key target when you have another that can consistently win 1-1 battles. Giants don’t currently have anyone that can be relied on to win their matchups, lots of work to do this offseason.
About Daniel Jones. I am a fan of his (even before this season), and I would have been fine had he put in a mediocre performance on Saturday. But I am quite distressed at how poorly he played. It is of course unfair to criticize just one player for a game that was a complete debacle for the entire team from the coaching staff on down.
But Daniel Jones played so poorly in so many ways! He was inaccurate with his passes, his internal clock was way off, there were the turnovers (which honestly didn’t bother me so much), and the crazy sack he took when he had rolled out to his right and inexplicably “forgot” to simply throw the ball away.
Most likely Joe Schoen spends a lot to resign Daniel Jones due to all the good things he did this season, but if in 5 years time that decision does not look like a wise one I think more than just a few fans may recall how small Daniel Jones played in Philly.
I learned a lot from you following these and other posts you have done over the course of the season. Appreciate all the efforts and again thank you.
About Daniel Jones. I am a fan of his (even before this season), and I would have been fine had he put in a mediocre performance on Saturday. But I am quite distressed at how poorly he played. It is of course unfair to criticize just one player for a game that was a complete debacle for the entire team from the coaching staff on down.
But Daniel Jones played so poorly in so many ways! He was inaccurate with his passes, his internal clock was way off, there were the turnovers (which honestly didn’t bother me so much), and the crazy sack he took when he had rolled out to his right and inexplicably “forgot” to simply throw the ball away.
Most likely Joe Schoen spends a lot to resign Daniel Jones due to all the good things he did this season, but if in 5 years time that decision does not look like a wise one I think more than just a few fans may recall how small Daniel Jones played in Philly.
I won't disagree with your reaction, but as you say, a one-game sample doesn't always tell the whole story. Eli looked equally clueless and inept in his first playoff game vs Carolina. Sometimes you have a bad day and the opponent has a very good one. How you move on, as a player and a team, will write your legacy.
You always do a thorough job.
Yeah we have to hope Neal can improve. The worrying part is he showed no improvement at all throughout the season and his weakness is footwork (something that is hard to correct). What do you do if he picks up right where he left off next year? They need to have a contingency plan.
Perhaps not but the staff should have a good idea how much is correctable with more time versus flaws that will be hard to correct. I hope if the later they bring in insurance. They need much better production from that spot imv.
My question for Sy would be about two passes to Darius Slayton. We all watched on Sunday when Dak Prescott underthrew a ball in the third quarter to Ceedee Lamb. Lamb slowed down, fought through a penalty by the defender, contorted his body, and made the catch. Jones underthrew the ball to Slayton and Slayton just waited for the ball to drop to him. He didn’t physically try to fight for it. On another pass thrown over the middle, Slayton didn’t really come back hard to the ball and the safety knocked it away. I seriously doubt that he’ll be back on the Giants next season, but what do you think about his future? Is he just who he is? Is there something that can be unlocked in a different role or system?
The coachable thing is massive. There were always chirpings that Flowers had an attitude, with Neal it seems to be the complete opposite.
It does not matter if you have spent resources in the past. If those resources didn't pan out, you have to keep spending until yo have what you need. And then, you need to keep spending more, though perhaps at a lower rate, to build a pipeline to maintain the OL as a strength.
As Sy said, it is 5 position, it represent about 23% of your starting players on offense and defense. People keep saying we have spent resources, but in the draft it has been nowhere near 23%, at least before Thomas and Neal. So we have a lot of past failure to for us catch up.
Quote:
I think Neal is a much more coachable individual, smarter than Flowers, and with way more upside
The coachable thing is massive. There were always chirpings that Flowers had an attitude, with Neal it seems to be the complete opposite.
Seems true, Flowers just seemed to have quite a few negatives. iirc he seemed to have had a better rookie year than Neal though.
If he IS however, be honest, and move him inside to G and draft an OT or sign one in FA until someone can develop.
Don't waste a bunch of years throwing him out there to fail to the point that he's useless. That's how the NYG let Flowers down.
Yeah, but how fair is it to expect those types of things from Slayton? Those are star qualities. He was a very late pick. That's the league telling you they don't see it likely he can play at a star level.
I have never seen Slayton play a contested catch style. He will get open on deep routes and win with speed, and he can run over the middle, again, with speed. His worst enemy is his hands. He will not do well when he has to win the fight against his hands AND outmuscle a defender.
Gabe Davis.
I think I'm staying away from both guys if I'm Joe S.
Quote:
The other quibble is that it's Slayton's responsibility to be more physical and contest some of the balls thrown his way. Heck, we see Cee Dee Lamb and other legit WRs man up and win contested balls. Who does that for Jones?
Yeah, but how fair is it to expect those types of things from Slayton? Those are star qualities. He was a very late pick. That's the league telling you they don't see it likely he can play at a star level.
I have never seen Slayton play a contested catch style. He will get open on deep routes and win with speed, and he can run over the middle, again, with speed. His worst enemy is his hands. He will not do well when he has to win the fight against his hands AND outmuscle a defender.
Slayton is a goner. With that said they need to find a similar player with wheels who can stretch the field as this offense is severely lacking in speed.
sigh
Thanks, Sy
There is still room for doubt. He hasn't proved much.
The comparison has to do with 2 things:
The level of struggle in their rookie year
And what is causing the struggle.
As a person and as a prospect out of college - Neal is head and shoulders above Flowers. I am not going there comparison wise. It is simply about the balance, footwork, and how badly he got beat throughout the year.
That is the maddening problem with Jones. He somehow manages to give evidence that both sides can use.
This is a huge contract decision, as Sy mentioned. Jones is a limited passer. Unless you are counting on him for 700-1000 yards rushing every year, there's a real question as to what he is worth. DC's will have all offseason to study what the Giants did, what worked against them and what didn't work. No more surprises.
I hear ya about Eli and that Carolina playoff. That was a doozy!
Would be nice for Daniel Jones to chart a parallel career with that of Eli! Real nice.
If Neal isn't going to thrive at OT (and it's early-I get it-I'm not saying he's not going to develop) move him to guard and solidify that spot...don't keep running him out there to get smoked at RT. Acknowledge the skill set he has look to fill the RT someone that can do the job.
What didn't send chills down my spine is Daboll's "My Way" theme. Seriously Daboll get a theme that kids raised in this century would understand, no wonder Giants came out so flat.
That roster was also easy better. Both of those teams would beat this team.
Surprised the interior OL didn’t get blasted. More so, just ‘meh’. To your point, would be great to have a real strength at some of these positions (C, OG)
Surprised the interior OL didn’t get blasted. More so, just ‘meh’. To your point, would be great to have a real strength at some of these positions (C, OG)
Initial thought, they sucked. Secondary view at it - they were on par / average
Me neither. But it definitely crossed my mind. We all want to believe Neal is the next Thomas but he could be the next Flowers.