Quoted "Just taking away that first read because we knew they wanted to take us out of the game by getting away quick throws and by him extending the play with his legs,” Eagles defensive end Brandon Graham said after. “When you look at [Bills quarterback] Josh Allen and you see the system that he runs, it’s similar to what [the Giants] run; the same thing. We just played off that. Take away his first [read] and get him to move around. We gave ourselves a chance to put pressure on him. I think it’s a credit to [Eagles Defensive Coordinator Jonathan Gannon] and the coaches.”
Defense said it was "easy." Them made fun of Giants and said,"I thought the Giants were coming to town? Who was that??"
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
The secret to DJs late season success was playing a checked-out Colts D and the Vikings 31st pass defense, twice. 1/3rd of his TDs came in 1/6th of his games.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Saying our division rivals will be applauding the signing fits your agenda.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
I think we are in the same spot here. IMO paying him as if he is a difference maker is just as absurd as saying he can't take another step forward or determining his worth solely based on stats.
Non-exclusive franchise seems to be the obvious move for that. Unless he is willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal below that AAV by $5M+ just let him play on it and prove it. This coming from someone who was 100% in the camp of franchise Saquon and let DJ walk if he doesn't meet your price before the string of games at the end of the season.
Not only are there questions of consistency but we have to see if he can stay healthy another year.
I get that people are so starved for a good team that Jones seems like a savior but this odd need to over-credit and under-blame the guy existed before he demonstrated ANY consistency. Right on up to the owner.
I don't really think there are that many scenarios here, his side was likely to negotiate hard anyway and it doesn't help the negotiating position when your owners are openly gushing about a player. Paying $35M for a league average or slightly better QB that could miss chunks of a season is a good way to build a mediocre at best team. Not sure why so many are salivating for that...
I'd much rather have better data that he is the real deal and pay him more. Anyone that claims to know that he is now has a hard time distinguishing between logic and optimism.
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Football is a team game. Expecting DJ to make up for shortcomings of the entire offense is not failure to produce in a big moment.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
The only issue with the tag is the market then takes over and there is the risk that a team would be willing to part with the two picks. If JS does not match his job then becomes to get at least a comparable performance from the position.
I think he has deal in mind he is willing to pay and if it gets beyond this then he has to make the big decision and be prepared to act that produces the desired result if he lets him walk.
I'd still move up in Bryce Young fell in the draft lol but I think he will wind up going number 1 but we'll see.
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Must be a Laffer Curve devotee?
I'm not excited about the others outside Young but if they tag and someone makes a offer JS does not want to match he can make that choice.
It probably would not be for this year and those picks would be for a year or two down the road.
I'd be interested to see how he would handle that situation from start to finish.
From my perspective, I put more value on the rest of the roster. DJ looked like shit there's no denying, but I put that mostly on how terribly we matched up against that Philly defense (and offense for that matter). It's not just on one guy, who plays pretty well under typical NFL pressure. I have said this many times, but which starting QB in the NFL looks good playing behind center for the Giants Saturday night? I'm trying to picture someone succeeding, but it aint happening... lol. Swap Hurts and Jones for that game. Are you going to tell me the outcome looks any different? Nobody can convince that the outcome is the same if not worse for the Giants.
Also, to the point on Eli, how did Eli look against Carolina in his first playoff game? I remember very clearly people wanting to run Eli right out of town after that game. He looked as bad in that game as DJ did this game, and with a better squad around him.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
Give me the name of the quarterback who you believe to be in a similar situation to Daniel Jones, yet is producing/succeeding in a way you feel Jones is incapable of. You won’t be able to because that person does not exist. You guys imagine these fantasy world QBs that don’t exist. The best QBs are playing with highly skilled players who, unfortunately, are significantly better than their Giants counterparts. A good QB shouldn’t need everything to be right, but no good QB is succeeding in a situation where very little is right.
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Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Must be a Laffer Curve devotee?
Well then Jones haters must be like Dr Doom, Nouriel Roubini. Nothing is ever good, all positive improvements must be ignored, and only the worst data fit into the worst light is correct.
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esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I'd still move up in Bryce Young fell in the draft lol but I think he will wind up going number 1 but we'll see.
That's not a bad idea, actually. I would do it for Stroud, too. I like Stroud better.
I'm not opposed to the aggressive reset. Let Jones and Barkley go, trade up for BY, CS or even Levis, and use that money saved from not re-signing DJ/SB to address other needs/upgrades.
The vilified Dak Prescott had over 300 yards against the Eagles in their second matchup.
I realize it was an intense playoff environment, but Jones struggled A LOT.
The vilified Dak Prescott had over 300 yards against the Eagles in their second matchup.
I realize it was an intense playoff environment, but Jones struggled A LOT.
OK, so do you feel Dak would have had 300 yards passing if he was behind center for us on Saturday night? Or better question... would he have had more than 109 yards and only one INT?
But that doesn't help that there is no #1 or #2 WR on the roster and only one NFL level TE. With the amount of starting holes on defense the GM has his work cut out for him this off season.
Again just my opinion. I think if Brian Daboll was coaching the Cowboys on Sunday and Daniel Jones was the QB Dallas wins that game. I think the Dallas OL and WRs and TEs are far superior to what the Giants had on Saturday. I have never thought Dak Prescott was a winning QB. IMO all he needs to do is manage the game with the talent Dallas has and he can't even do that. I also think some of that is on the horrible Mike McCarthy too.
Actually I think if our HC and offensive coaching staff coaches that Sunday SF/Dallas game even with Dak I think they win. I'm not a McCarthy fan... lol
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In comment 16012697 JonC said:
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Until we see Jones (and his receivers) attack the deep thirds and center of a secondary, we don't know what level his vertical game is. In the past, he's made some and he missed some, and he's been unable to even read some defenses. Watch Josh Allen, then watch Jones, and take note of what the former does versus what Jones does not. And, then watch next season and see if Jones starts doing more of it. That's the next progression to demonstrate. Basic as I can make it.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
Correct, and when they bottle up the first reads it takes away the YAC and ability to sustain drives. I didn't see many attempts to break tendency either, so they are keeping the ball in front of them and jumping the routes. Excellent film study and gameplanning.
Both of you are among the more reasonable and intelligent posters here.
Did you notice anything about QB play in 2022 across the board?
How were defenses attacking the entire league this year?
What type of offense is the flavor now?
The next few things I believe.
Schoen and Daboll both want Jones here.
Stating up front right now this will be unequivocally proven over the next months by what they say and do.
They will profess their desire to retain him unwaveringly in this off season.
I guarantee this.
They will sign him to a long term deal or he will be franchised.
Guaranteed.
Want to wager either of those points?
I think your scouting is biased. I saw it differently. Schoen and Daboll did too in my opinion and will be proven in just over a month.
Their actions and words are going to make this crystal clear to all of you.
Maybe you are right that Jones isn't good enough.
Not so many people agree with that anymore, certainly not the important people.
They are stating their desire to retain him publicly.
Think about what that means.
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
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In comment 16013032 prematurely_blue said:
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esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Idiots. Go looks at the stats of every single game against the Eagle THIS YEAR and get back to me. Aaron Rodgers had a QBR of 34.9 before they knocked him out of the game. How about we look at how Dan Marino do in the playoffs against top 10 defenses?
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I merely said the performance vs the Eagles was just one data point. And for that you shout at me and insult me. For views that are little different than JonC.
You're the fucking troll. Or perhaps your blood pressure and anxiety medications need to be modified. Stay away from my posts if you can't be civil.
And Europe 72 is the best Dead record with apologies to Live Dead.
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
So much to prove. There are folks literally clamoring here to give $40M per to a QB who hasn't shown he can compete with our main rivals in the biggest spots
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
The Judge years were a clown show and I think you likely know more of that than you can even say. By the end of the season Jones looked like a different QB in 2022. Confident, he even threw with more zip.
So, I agree Jones has more to show because he is not done ascending. Jones will be a Giant is 2023 with better parts. We don't even have to argue about this because we are going to get to watch it play out.
The Eagle game reminded people of who he was, I feel that. The Eagles made QB's look worse than Jones did this year. That is legitimate context that played out over the entire season. They were rested and at home...
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In comment 16013041 Producer said:
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In comment 16013032 prematurely_blue said:
Quote:
esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Idiots. Go looks at the stats of every single game against the Eagle THIS YEAR and get back to me. Aaron Rodgers had a QBR of 34.9 before they knocked him out of the game. How about we look at how Dan Marino do in the playoffs against top 10 defenses?
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I merely said the performance vs the Eagles was just one data point. And for that you shout at me and insult me. For views that are little different than JonC.
You're the fucking troll. Or perhaps your blood pressure and anxiety medications need to be modified. Stay away from my posts if you can't be civil.
And Europe 72 is the best Dead record with apologies to Live Dead.
A very good point by TTH about judging qbs by wins and losses. Thegratefulhead?
Anyone?
The money we are talking about will not be a big deal. The QB performed well with limited offensive talent and the Owner, GM and coach all publicly want him back.
Realistically, you all know what it is going to happen don't you?
Not trying to be a smart ass, but Jones is a Giant in 2023.
It is what it is.
There is no stat, and definitely no one's scouting of Jones on BBI is going to change my belief that a QB that won his first playoff can go farther with better parts than the Giants had in 2022.
It is reasonable to want to see if he can.
VERY REASONABLE
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Then what to you do with a 1-5-1 record in the NFC east. He owns that too, looking at it your way.
A very good point by TTH about judging qbs by wins and losses. Thegratefulhead?
Big picture, the fans were chanting his name...
The overall talent deficit is large still. It is pass catching league the receiving talent on both teams is >>>>> Giants.
There are 2 high beater schemes.
Mesh concepts (double shallow crossers)
Smash concepts (high low the CBs)
Options with a high crosser (usually your slot guy has the option depending on the leverage the S is using against him)
Weakside floods: routes at various levels going weakside where there is usually 1 less defender. Usually involves a high crosser coming from the strong side.
Many of these beater schemes require hitting the deep 3rd with high crossers, or deep outs.
Single high looks, quarters and sixths can beat some of these offensive concepts. So defenses will mix it up using disguises.
The Giants run a lot of smash schemes, and meshes. Usually hitting the underneath targets.
It's clear he'll be back next season, pending a late change of heart or contract tactics. But, while 2022 was a terrific rebound season for Jones, he now looks like an average NFL QB to me, with plus running ability. He rose from obscurity to average, imv. I recognize that's a hard opinion to swallow and some will feel it's glass half empty. But, with his contract up it's difficult timing to be definitive imv ... and conversations required I wish we could overhear between Schoen and Daboll.
There are 2 high beater schemes.
Mesh concepts (double shallow crossers)
Smash concepts (high low the CBs)
Options with a high crosser (usually your slot guy has the option depending on the leverage the S is using against him)
Weakside floods: routes at various levels going weakside where there is usually 1 less defender. Usually involves a high crosser coming from the strong side.
Many of these beater schemes require hitting the deep 3rd with high crossers, or deep outs.
Single high looks, quarters and sixths can beat some of these offensive concepts. So defenses will mix it up using disguises.
The Giants run a lot of smash schemes, and meshes. Usually hitting the underneath targets.
I would have done EXACTLY what Kafka and Daboll did this year. The yardage lost from a turnover is large, never mind momentum which can be subjective, but I believe real. Against Minnesota, when he had time, he went through progressions well. I think he executes the game plan they install.
That is the crux of things. You and others believe this scheme was employed because of some deficit in Jones.
I disagree, Jones is executing what he is given. He was number 1 in the NFL at being on target at over 81%
Number 1
Bad throw percentage was 12.2% better than 29 other QBs including Allen, Mahomes, Herbert and Burrow.
Gentlemen, before you go Strawman on me.
I AM NOT SAYING JONES IS COMPARABLE TO THOSE QBs.
Save your fingers the typing, you would arguing against air.
9-7-1
Made the playoffs
Won his first playoff game by playing great.
Respected by teammates
Respected by coaches
Respected by management
Respected by ownership
Fans chanted his name
Showed large improvement in 2022
Lacking production on the OL
Well below average pass catching talent in 2022.
This all seems very intuitive.
I believe it is bias. Until game 6 of this year I was WITH THE CRITICS of Jones. Jones answered everything he could have with the talent around and the game plan that was given to him in 2022.
I stand by my claim that all of management will sing Jones praises this offseason and publicly claim to want him back.
Jones will be signed or tagged and that will be confirmed. If they tag him and someone offers him, they will match instead of taking the picks.
This is a high low putting a defender in conflict.
However, if you never try to hit the high, there is no conflict anymore. There is nothing wrong with the scheme, the problem is the execution.
In general trying to have a short/quick passing game worked well. And I have said in numerous posts, was the right thing to do with this team. I've seen enough ALL 22s to know that there were opportunities to hit open receivers in the deep 3rd. There were times the protection was there... Almost without fail, Jones chose not to throw but to run instead. When the Giants ran into a good defense, they were able to exploit this void in the Giants attack.
The only conclusion I am able to draw from this is that he has been coached not to make those throws...
Then the question has to be WHY?
Please don't act like I am a Jones hater. I'm not. I think he played well this year. He made improvements by leaps and bounds. I am eager to see what he can do in year 2 of this system. Hopefully, learning how to take advantage of those deep 3rd throws is part of it. If the Giants can do it consistently, it will really put defenses on their heals.
Will it work better with better OL and better WR. Sure. But, don't kid yourself that there were virtually no opportunities with this surrounding cast. This is the NFL. All these guys have talent. There are opportunities in every game.
This is a high low putting a defender in conflict.
However, if you never try to hit the high, there is no conflict anymore. There is nothing wrong with the scheme, the problem is the execution.
In general trying to have a short/quick passing game worked well. And I have said in numerous posts, was the right thing to do with this team. I've seen enough ALL 22s to know that there were opportunities to hit open receivers in the deep 3rd. There were times the protection was there... Almost without fail, Jones chose not to throw but to run instead. When the Giants ran into a good defense, they were able to exploit this void in the Giants attack.
The only conclusion I am able to draw from this is that he has been coached not to make those throws...
Then the question has to be WHY?
Please don't act like I am a Jones hater. I'm not. I think he played well this year. He made improvements by leaps and bounds. I am eager to see what he can do in year 2 of this system. Hopefully, learning how to take advantage of those deep 3rd throws is part of it. If the Giants can do it consistently, it will really put defenses on their heals.
Will it work better with better OL and better WR. Sure. But, don't kid yourself that there were virtually no opportunities with this surrounding cast. This is the NFL. All these guys have talent. There are opportunities in every game.
The "why" is a guess.
In watching the all 22 this year, I saw things Jones left on the table. All QBs did.
Here is my best guess from evaluation. The game plan was to hit the first read if it was there. The first read was going to be the highest efficiency target. I feel like I am typing words we all know.
That was my take from watching the all 22. I don't think Jones was afraid of going deep, I believe they declined his option, and Jones did exactly what he was asked with a high degree of efficiency because it was the only way his career would continue.
That is they crux is why they want him back. Jones executed the plan.
Kafka and Daboll definitely know why.
What does it mean then that they publicly want Jones back?
Seems intuitive to me.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
The Giants seem to clearly want Jones at all levels or do you believe they are going to only offer 3 years at 32 per or the tag? We are going to know the answers really soon.
From a big picture standpoint, I see this as absolutely getting done. I recognize what you and others are saying about the fact that Jones has not displayed a deep game.
I am saying it does not matter. We can go round and round and try to prove that to each other but I think it pointless. They fact that Daboll wants him tells me all I need to know.
I believe Jones will be a Giant in 2023 and it will likely be a 5 year deal. I think he deserves it, I think he is ascending. I firmly believe he is going to outplay the fair contract he gets because Garret wasted 2 years of his career. The Giants are getting a bargain.
That point is obviously true.
Will he have better results if Schoen can achieve the above objectives? I think anyone, and all of us in the DJ doubters club will agree that, yes, he will have better results.
How much better is the sticking point. While there were the much-talked about deficiencies at those other positions, you can look at a number of plays where DJ fell short of where you would feel confident that he will produce at an elite level if he had the help we're talking about. And that's because there have been cases during games where guys are open, or open enough, that DJ missed throws or didn't throw it when he should have.
There were a number of these plays in the Eagles game, but all season there were examples of this. I don't care that Darius Slayton isn't a superstar, but if he's open, make the throw and hit him. When you see a QB not capitalize on some of the opportunities that HAVE been there, that's where the questions come in for some us like myself and JonC and others.
There is this ability that the great QBs have of throwing a receiver open. That is, the coverage might be there, but putting the ball in a spot to give your receiver a good chance at making the play, that's what your top QBs do. This has been something I haven't seen a lot from DJ, certainly not in the Eagles' game, but all year there were these types of plays. Agree with the thoughts on the lack of attacking the deep third.
Sometimes you have to put the ball up and trust your receiver to come down with it. The talk of DJ's low interception totals is a much-discussed talking point to bolster DJ. I do not believe it is. I believe those low INTs are a function of being too[i] conservative in the passing game decisions. And that idea is further bolstered when you consider that along with the low INTs, there's also a low number of passing TDs as well. I'd much rather see Daniel throw 30 scores and 10 INTs then 15-5. Is this a function of scheme and coaching Daniel to play conservatively? Very possible, and in fact I would say likely.
However, Daboll didn't coach Josh Allen this way. So you have to have the question of why. Is it soley a function of the lack of ability of the receivers, or is part of it a lack of confidence in DJ's ability to be successful with the downfield passing attack? Both can be true.
So everyone can debate and say it was this reason or that reason, but until Schoen brings in more talent at the receiver position, and Jones either demonstrates this ability or fails to, we won't [i]really know definitively and with absolute certainty what that right answer is.
That's where there are those lingering doubts. I do not believe it's a slam dunk that DJ is going to be as good as some of the QB comparisons that have been made with better receivers, because of many of the observations made when the plays to be made were there, and the throws weren't...either misfires or shots not taken.
But I am willing to 1) be open to the possibility that I am wrong on this point, and 2) leave room for DJ to continue to improve this part of his game and get there.
But as JonC has said, those are things that he still has to prove he can do.
Fans chanting his name is a nonfactor. Fans will embrace anyone in that position who plays well because it's the most valuable position in pro football.
Ownership extolling his virtues is fluff. Let's revisit the love letters written on Giants letterhead about Joe Judge and Dave Gettleman and then talk about how much their opinion should tip the scales.
He is respected by players and coaches. Fine. I think fans *only* care about measurement that when it fits their specific argument at the time. Odell Beckham Jr was highly respected and loved by his teammates and coaches. There was never a bad word said abut him or his work ethic. Few Giants fans care.
If you want a reason to be bullish on Jones it's the fit with the coaching staff, and the final month of the season, his games against Minnesota and Indianapolis. That is potential.
Quote:
executed the plan, and did it well. The team wayyy over achieved.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
No argument that there is another step. Daboll can only Judge Jones by what Daboll asked Jones to do, right?
The Giants seem to clearly want Jones at all levels or do you believe they are going to only offer 3 years at 32 per or the tag? We are going to know the answers really soon.
From a big picture standpoint, I see this as absolutely getting done. I recognize what you and others are saying about the fact that Jones has not displayed a deep game.
I am saying it does not matter. We can go round and round and try to prove that to each other but I think it pointless. They fact that Daboll wants him tells me all I need to know.
I believe Jones will be a Giant in 2023 and it will likely be a 5 year deal. I think he deserves it, I think he is ascending. I firmly believe he is going to outplay the fair contract he gets because Garret wasted 2 years of his career. The Giants are getting a bargain.
I am expecting a 4 or 5 year deal that give the Giants an out after 3. I expect something between 32 and 35 AAV.
Something like 95-100M gtd. I am onboard with that!
The fact that they want to bring him back is obviously a good sign. However it doesn't mean he is a finished product, or a certainty to reach the next level.
The number I put above might not be what Team Jones wants... But the Giants have the tag as leverage. I would not be surprise if the tag is used, and a deal worked out later. Jones will be the Giants QB in 2024, there is no doubt about that.
We ain't far apart.