Quoted "Just taking away that first read because we knew they wanted to take us out of the game by getting away quick throws and by him extending the play with his legs,” Eagles defensive end Brandon Graham said after. “When you look at [Bills quarterback] Josh Allen and you see the system that he runs, it’s similar to what [the Giants] run; the same thing. We just played off that. Take away his first [read] and get him to move around. We gave ourselves a chance to put pressure on him. I think it’s a credit to [Eagles Defensive Coordinator Jonathan Gannon] and the coaches.”
Defense said it was "easy." Them made fun of Giants and said,"I thought the Giants were coming to town? Who was that??"
Allen hasn’t played the Eagles since Jim Schwartz was the DC. The only time Gannon ever faced Allen was as a CB coach with the Colts. They’re just saying the offense is similar, not that they’d run the same game plan.
perhaps. but this is the system Jones can run and be somewhat effective. Jones hasn't shown he can excel in a pocket passing system.
If I had to guess, Philly made a concerted effort, with either a safety or LB, to keep a spy on Jones on every play. That's the strength of Jones's game and he killed Minnesota with it. So, Philly declared early - find another approach to move the ball...
This.
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we still lose but it would have been nice to see what impact that could have had. Lousy gameplan.
If I had to guess, Philly made a concerted effort, with either a safety or LB, to keep a spy on Jones on every play. That's the strength of Jones's game and he killed Minnesota with it. So, Philly declared early - find another approach to move the ball...
You're not going to have wide open, uncontested, QB running lanes that we saw against the Vikings when we play good defenses.
More that our OL can't sustain pass pro for long and they have great players throughout their defense.
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
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to knock Jones- and you miss entirely. Notice they mention the Bills and Josh Allen- play them the same way. of course take the first read (why wouldn't you), you know your pass rush will get through. That whole statement isn't a knock on Jones, it is the reality that we have little options and basically tried to quick throw our way through teams to not expose our IOL and Neal to pass rush blocking for any longer than a quick moment.
This.
Not this.
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
i don't take it as a knock on Jones, more a knock on our ability to protect Jones.
Color me shocked.
Try and think this one through before some of you start poking your DJ dolls with needles once again.
No surprises here
Brock Purdy's pockets were slow to break down and sometimes he had all day. And afterwards he scrambled and had the hot hands to catch his stuff. Jones O-Line was total crap. But come on, Dabs knows Neal is the Staypuff Marshmallow. So there was something clearly bad with the scheme this time around
Based on formations and personnel
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
Worked pretty well. Seems the coaches tried to mitigate perceived deficiencies of the offense
That's a good point. Jones was getting better looking away from first read last 2 games but I guess he regressed and stared down his primary target.
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In comment 16011742 jvm52106 said:
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to knock Jones- and you miss entirely. Notice they mention the Bills and Josh Allen- play them the same way. of course take the first read (why wouldn't you), you know your pass rush will get through. That whole statement isn't a knock on Jones, it is the reality that we have little options and basically tried to quick throw our way through teams to not expose our IOL and Neal to pass rush blocking for any longer than a quick moment.
This.
Not this.
Because our OL apart from Thomas is good at pass pro? Because our WRs are in the same zip code as most other highly contending teams?
I would take a moment to consider DJ needs to be judged in the context of the talent around him vs judged by stats only . Hurts didnt magically become great, nor did Allen, or Lawrence , or Tua. Each ones production increased when they got another #1 WR added to their team. On the other side of the coin Herbert suddenly kinda sucked and so did Rogers for much of the year. When Herbert got his recievers back from injury he played better and when the light bulb went of for Watson so did Rogers.
Not one of any of the recivers DJ had in his entire career would be even a number 2 on almost any Eli manning team. Maybe only one starter beats out his OL of Diehl Snee OHara Suebert McKenzie
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Well aren't you Einstein..I could tell you how the defend Jones - Detroit did it, too.
This time they doubled Hodgins to take away the quick read, they ran through Neal like he wasn't there and spied on Jones to prevent the QB runs.
Eagles have a very, very good defense and they did it to most teams the entire year. A team with limited offensive weapons, like the Giants, is easy to defend when your defense is that good and the oline that bad...
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meanwhile if you read the quote they defend Josh Allen the same exact way.
Allen hasn’t played the Eagles since Jim Schwartz was the DC. The only time Gannon ever faced Allen was as a CB coach with the Colts. They’re just saying the offense is similar, not that they’d run the same game plan.
Came here to say this...yeah, the Eagles haven't played Buffalo since 2019.
Also, and I know, this is going to be quite the controversial statement...but maybe, just MAYBE, Josh Allen is a lot better than Daniel Jones and is able to still make plays happen very often even if you do take away his first read?
I think the takeaway here is they had a game plan to take away Hodgins. Hodgins had 8 catches on 9 targets against Minnesota, 4 for 5 in the Colts, 8 for 12 in the first Minnesota game.
I'm curious to see what Sy says or if he saw something in the All-22, but it looked like there was a lot of coverage on the crossers and intermediate area of the field where Daniel really likes to work as well.
The Giants are going to need to get a receiver that is a legitimate downfield threat to command safety attention so that these underneath throwing lanes aren't so clogged. And Daniel has to not be afraid to cut it loose sometimes.
There were occasions in my watch of the game that Daniel didn't take a throw because the receiver was covered, but in some spots you have to trust your receiver to make a play and give him a chance, if it's one-on-one. There were times where the receiver had a 2-yard cushion, and Daniel didn't make the throw. That is where you can "throw your receiver open."
It was a great game plan by the Eagles. I expect that if they played that way against Josh Allen, he'd beat them over the top. Giants need their version of Gabe Davis. Hell, Stephon Diggs, too.
Hodgins is a good receiver to stick around but obviously he's more of a complementary piece.
Another thing that Allen does is he hits Knox on deep outs and seams. Bellinger might not have that sort of deep ability, he's also better on those short and intermediate routes, maybe. Hard to say because I haven't really seen them try Bellinger on those types of routes. It maybe that is because he's not that kind of TE, or it may be that is just not in their scheme. If it's the former, another TE that can stretch the middle or get deep on the outside would be a nice-to-have. Not more important than the critical upgrades at WR.
But the more I look at Hodgins, I think he could be really good as a slot. Not the same kind of slot as a Wan'Dale, who is really explosive out of breaks, but a bigger slot who runs good routes, catches just about everything, and is a bigger target.
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Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Well aren't you Einstein..I could tell you how the defend Jones - Detroit did it, too.
This time they doubled Hodgins to take away the quick read, they ran through Neal like he wasn't there and spied on Jones to prevent the QB runs.
Eagles have a very, very good defense and they did it to most teams the entire year. A team with limited offensive weapons, like the Giants, is easy to defend when your defense is that good and the oline that bad...
They can gameplan and scheme to a point but when the talent disparity is stark and the other team has a good gameplan themselves, guys like Hodgins Slayton and James are going to get contained enough for the opposing pass-rush to get home against the likes of our pass protectors.
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
I like your football take better than your economics take.
It is what it is. However, ultimately, of course the Giants were going to go to a quick read for Jones. They knew their OL wasn't going to hold up to the Philly pass rush. So did Philly. This was a mismatch, Giants weren't ready for them. Odds are this group is going to win the Super Bowl.
However, that said, I know they have the 10th pick, but a lot of their key players/leaders are older. Graham is 35 and likely won't be back. Neither will Cox. Kelce will retire. Johnson getting older. That team will have a target on their back all next year & will have a turnover on the roster with no guarantee their younger guys will necessarily be as good as the those they are replacing, which is what people are assuming.
Giants are going to close the gap on them quicker than people realize. I just hope they keep the camera on Sirianni's dumb ass face when they do flip the script on them. Also, watch the fans turn on him as soon as it happens. They are all playing to a mouthbreathing fan base who will throw them out the second they start losing.
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what he first read was on every play?
That's a good point. Jones was getting better looking away from first read last 2 games but I guess he regressed and stared down his primary target.
They 'know' the first read of a play based on film study of the offense and tendencies. They aren't going to get it right every time but they probably deduced it part of the time.
WFT second game third drive is where the switched up. Instead of running as they had in previous weeks and not getting enough desired results they used the quick PG on early downs.
All comes back to the same things. We still have a LOS problem against the better fronts.
From yesterday I believe JS is well aware of it and it will get a lot of attention imv on both sides.
But we knew as soon as the offense stumbled everyone would be back out of their hiding places. "See?? See??"
LOL
But we knew as soon as the offense stumbled everyone would be back out of their hiding places. "See?? See??"
LOL
Who are these posters that were hiding? Not me, not Jon, not ajr, I have no idea who you're talking about.
All over philly sports radio the debate is if this is the greatest Eagles team ever assembled
You hate to say it but this is very true. They are well coached to boot. Hard to find a weakness and many areas on the team are high level strengths. The hope was Hurts wasn't the real deal but once he got AJ Brown in Sirianni's QB friendly offense he took off.
Hopefully NYG closes the gap this offseason.
I think they now have a coaching stuff that can create a masterpeice if you give them the ingredients and we have cap space and maneuverability if we want to.
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to knock Jones- and you miss entirely. Notice they mention the Bills and Josh Allen- play them the same way. of course take the first read (why wouldn't you), you know your pass rush will get through. That whole statement isn't a knock on Jones, it is the reality that we have little options and basically tried to quick throw our way through teams to not expose our IOL and Neal to pass rush blocking for any longer than a quick moment.
This.
So much this
I don't think there was even one holding penalty called on the eagles offensive line the whole game and that say alot.
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what he first read was on every play?
Based on formations and personnel
Lots film study and the fact that they played them twice this year as well. They used their bye week wisely too. Probably got a good look at both Vikes and Giants offenses on film.
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Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
I like your football take better than your economics take.
The economics take sounded like the US of A debt situation,
but hey, that's just me. Just a joke, no political agenda here okay...
Agreed Eric. Roseman has built the most complete team I've ever seen them have. They have no holes. It's incredible when you think of how Carson Wentz was the presumptive starter finishing the 2020 season. The trade they made with the Colts allowed them to get DeVonta Smith and with other moves and dominoes, Jalen Hurts.
Further, they barely played their first round pick this year, Jordan Davis, the heir-apparent to Fletcher Cox. It's incredible.
I think they'll get a quick education this weekend when the Eagles smoke the Niners.
I don't think there was even one holding penalty called on the eagles offensive line the whole game and that say alot.
Funny thing is I haven’t seen many holding penalties called this whole year. It appears like the NFL is only calling blatant holds and letting them play. Yea there’s been plenty of blatant holds not called too.
I just think with some personnel limitations it was hard to do that.
That D is equipped better to handle Jones as a threat combined with the pass rushers and secondary its a tough matchup.
Don't look at it that way. You ever watch boxing? "Styles make fights." I haven't read through the whole thread but this was the case with the Eagles. Not only are they (likely) the most talented overall team in the league except SF, but they are a terrible matchup for us with their pass rush. The statement is being cherry picked with "I told you so's" as a Jones slam, but it isn't. It's a fact of what they needed to do (and did) to completely shut down the offense. There is not one person to slam there. The whole offense as constructed is to blame. All players and the scheme we had to employ based on the talent we have.
I will say this and that's it. A lot of those early season wins were on the backs of the defense and Saquon. DJ wasn't exactly lighting it up in the pass game. He was getting some good runs in, yes. But he only exceeded 200 passing yards twice in the first 9 games.
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what he first read was on every play?
That's a good point. Jones was getting better looking away from first read last 2 games but I guess he regressed and stared down his primary target.
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still getting the sense that many Giants fans are in denial about how good this Eagles team is this year. You don't see many teams with top-3 offenses and defenses at the same time.
I think they'll get a quick education this weekend when the Eagles smoke the Niners.
Well, I hope not, pulling for the Niners. If the Niners don't play better offensively than last weekend, they won't win though. Only 19 points, that won't cut it against Iggles. I think Niners can run on them?
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still getting the sense that many Giants fans are in denial about how good this Eagles team is this year. You don't see many teams with top-3 offenses and defenses at the same time.
Agreed Eric. Roseman has built the most complete team I've ever seen them have. They have no holes. It's incredible when you think of how Carson Wentz was the presumptive starter finishing the 2020 season. The trade they made with the Colts allowed them to get DeVonta Smith and with other moves and dominoes, Jalen Hurts.
Further, they barely played their first round pick this year, Jordan Davis, the heir-apparent to Fletcher Cox. It's incredible.
And have the #10 pick to add to an already complete team. If they wanted to they could let Sanders walk, trade down acquire more picks, and add Bijan Robinson and improve the offense more. Or they can take one of the highest rated pass rushers and make the defense even scarier.
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but get tired of the arguments that any shortcoming of DJ is some other player's fault.
Don't look at it that way. You ever watch boxing? "Styles make fights." I haven't read through the whole thread but this was the case with the Eagles. Not only are they (likely) the most talented overall team in the league except SF, but they are a terrible matchup for us with their pass rush. The statement is being cherry picked with "I told you so's" as a Jones slam, but it isn't. It's a fact of what they needed to do (and did) to completely shut down the offense. There is not one person to slam there. The whole offense as constructed is to blame. All players and the scheme we had to employ based on the talent we have.
I hope the Giants bring him back, but no more excuses for ever mistake!
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
You obviously don't watch the games if you believe that.
Roseman is a savant. He's outlasted Banner, Reid, Kelly, and Pederson.
The Philly football world from time-to-time wants to drag that guy down, but he's excellent at this.
The end.
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
No reason to argue with you Producer. If you believe Daboll understands NFL Quarterbacking skills, then we'll have the answer soon enough in the re-signing of Jones. If you are correct and he can't read defenses, or get to his 2nd/3rd reads then why would Daboll agree to tie himself to Jones?
This is like saying you have to run the ball and stop the run to win in the NFL.
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what he first read was on every play?
Based on formations and personnel
DJ was 15/27. So 15 times they either didn't know what the first read was or weren't able to take it away.
The other 12 times, plus the times he pulled it down and ran or was sacked, they probably took it away.
Taking away the first read 50% of the time is enough when you have a very good pass rush and can collapse the pocket.
The Philly football world from time-to-time wants to drag that guy down, but he's excellent at this.
The decision to buy Hurts in the second round as a hedge against Wentz not living up to his contract is a great case study that you should always be looking for the next QB.
Always.
Teams have been doing this to us for 5 years
Teams have been doing this to us for 5 years
People reading this as an shot at Jones are viewing it through anti-Jones colored glasses. Its more a slam on 1) the OL and 2) the crappy Wrs ability to do anything more than quick hitters.
Judge his season as whole.
9-7-1
Won his first playoff game
Lost to the number 1 seed.
He was pressured on 26.6 percent of his drop backs. His
accuracy was number one in the entire NFL at over 81%. He was 4th in the least bad throws. Red Zone efficiency we know was 8th. YAC was near the bottom. WRs were bottom of the league and the OL was average at best.
Jones deserves the contract he going to get.
This is an ascending player.
Advanced passing stats - ( New Window )
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take away the first read (the quick pass). That means the QB needs more time to get to his 2nd and 3rd reads, but you know the DL/LBs will get there before the QB has the time. Take away the quick pass and the RB out of the backfield, then Jones has to run because the OL won't hold up.
Teams have been doing this to us for 5 years
People reading this as an shot at Jones are viewing it through anti-Jones colored glasses. Its more a slam on 1) the OL and 2) the crappy Wrs ability to do anything more than quick hitters.
Agreed, but we can use a first rate burner which would greatly aid DJ..Bring in more talent for OL, especially the interior
The end.
Yep, the offense as currently constructed is to protect itself from its weaknesses (Jones included) and to use what it does well, which is quick passes and YAC. As you set up the defense for play action etc, then you must hit your vertical routes when opportunity presents itself. Giants struggled to get the quick routes and YAC going, and couldn't sustain anything. Dead in the water.
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The Philly football world from time-to-time wants to drag that guy down, but he's excellent at this.
The decision to buy Hurts in the second round as a hedge against Wentz not living up to his contract is a great case study that you should always be looking for the next QB.
Always.
There it is. Post of the Day.
I don't think there was even one holding penalty called on the eagles offensive line the whole game and that say alot.
Now do it for the Giant's OL.
Blocking is holding.
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
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saw the key to stopping Giant offense was containing and pressuring Jones. They executed from every level of their defense to stop the run, pressure the QB, and take away the wideouts ability to get separation as much as possible and Jones designed run/scramble lanes, and Giants had no answers.
The end.
Yep, the offense as currently constructed is to protect itself from its weaknesses (Jones included) and to use what it does well, which is quick passes and YAC. As you set up the defense for play action etc, then you must hit your vertical routes when opportunity presents itself. Giants struggled to get the quick routes and YAC going, and couldn't sustain anything. Dead in the water.
Against the number 2 defense in the NFL, that posted historic sack numbers, Jones was dead in the water. He wasn't the only QB that did not play well against them. They were rested as well.
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In comment 16011971 Sammo85 said:
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saw the key to stopping Giant offense was containing and pressuring Jones. They executed from every level of their defense to stop the run, pressure the QB, and take away the wideouts ability to get separation as much as possible and Jones designed run/scramble lanes, and Giants had no answers.
The end.
Yep, the offense as currently constructed is to protect itself from its weaknesses (Jones included) and to use what it does well, which is quick passes and YAC. As you set up the defense for play action etc, then you must hit your vertical routes when opportunity presents itself. Giants struggled to get the quick routes and YAC going, and couldn't sustain anything. Dead in the water.
Actually, it got them to the playoffs and the lost to the number 1 seed that is the current favorite to win the Superbowl. Much better than dead in the water. The OL was average at best and WRs were practice squad players. Very reasonable to believe that with a slightly better OL and some receivers this offense takes the next step.
Against the number 2 defense in the NFL, that posted historic sack numbers, Jones was dead in the water. He wasn't the only QB that did not play well against them. They were rested as well.
Great post
Of course..The Eagles are where Schoen and Daboll need yo take us
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In comment 16011971 Sammo85 said:
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saw the key to stopping Giant offense was containing and pressuring Jones. They executed from every level of their defense to stop the run, pressure the QB, and take away the wideouts ability to get separation as much as possible and Jones designed run/scramble lanes, and Giants had no answers.
The end.
Yep, the offense as currently constructed is to protect itself from its weaknesses (Jones included) and to use what it does well, which is quick passes and YAC. As you set up the defense for play action etc, then you must hit your vertical routes when opportunity presents itself. Giants struggled to get the quick routes and YAC going, and couldn't sustain anything. Dead in the water.
Actually, it got them to the playoffs and the lost to the number 1 seed that is the current favorite to win the Superbowl. Much better than dead in the water. The OL was average at best and WRs were practice squad players. Very reasonable to believe that with a slightly better OL and some receivers this offense takes the next step.
Against the number 2 defense in the NFL, that posted historic sack numbers, Jones was dead in the water. He wasn't the only QB that did not play well against them. They were rested as well.
This offseason is an important one. We have a coaching staff that can cook a wholesome meal with the right ingredients. Will we follow the 2021 Eagles model? Add a #1WR, #2 M2M CB in addition to resigning our core and a couple other pieces.
If Schoen pulls this off this 9-7-1 team could be closer to an 11-12 win team next year.
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The Philly football world from time-to-time wants to drag that guy down, but he's excellent at this.
The decision to buy Hurts in the second round as a hedge against Wentz not living up to his contract is a great case study that you should always be looking for the next QB.
Always.
Agreed. Roseman is certainly looking like a savant here. And the way he built that roster, ridiculous. I really don't want them to win another SB, but damn it sure looks a damn good bet right now.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
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In comment 16011971 Sammo85 said:
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saw the key to stopping Giant offense was containing and pressuring Jones. They executed from every level of their defense to stop the run, pressure the QB, and take away the wideouts ability to get separation as much as possible and Jones designed run/scramble lanes, and Giants had no answers.
The end.
Yep, the offense as currently constructed is to protect itself from its weaknesses (Jones included) and to use what it does well, which is quick passes and YAC. As you set up the defense for play action etc, then you must hit your vertical routes when opportunity presents itself. Giants struggled to get the quick routes and YAC going, and couldn't sustain anything. Dead in the water.
Actually, it got them to the playoffs and the lost to the number 1 seed that is the current favorite to win the Superbowl. Much better than dead in the water. The OL was average at best and WRs were practice squad players. Very reasonable to believe that with a slightly better OL and some receivers this offense takes the next step.
Against the number 2 defense in the NFL, that posted historic sack numbers, Jones was dead in the water. He wasn't the only QB that did not play well against them. They were rested as well.
Much more likely, this team is headed for a regression.
Philly has been committed to the lines since Reid came in.
What he has been really smart about is not getting away what has been the strength of the franchise. Keeping the fronts near the top.
This was the Giants way of doing business or a long time with some downturns and they were better at it. Philly flipped the script and they got better. Dallas as well.
Now it Schoen's job to restore the Giants foundation and the execution will play a big part where this team goes.
This offseason is an important one. We have a coaching staff that can cook a wholesome meal with the right ingredients. Will we follow the 2021 Eagles model? Add a #1WR, #2 M2M CB in addition to resigning our core and a couple other pieces.
If Schoen pulls this off this 9-7-1 team could be closer to an 11-12 win team next year.
The Eagles didn't give their starting QB and RB $45-50 million in AAV contracts between last year and this one. The Giants are going to have a hard time adding the pieces they will need to get on that level, and they almost certainly won't be able to do it in one offseason.
People need to be prepared for this still to be a multi-year rebuild, and for 2023 to perhaps be disappointing.
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This offseason is an important one. We have a coaching staff that can cook a wholesome meal with the right ingredients. Will we follow the 2021 Eagles model? Add a #1WR, #2 M2M CB in addition to resigning our core and a couple other pieces.
If Schoen pulls this off this 9-7-1 team could be closer to an 11-12 win team next year.
The Eagles didn't give their starting QB and RB $45-50 million in AAV contracts between last year and this one. The Giants are going to have a hard time adding the pieces they will need to get on that level, and they almost certainly won't be able to do it in one offseason.
People need to be prepared for this still to be a multi-year rebuild, and for 2023 to perhaps be disappointing.
There are options....and rumors already of Leo's large 32M cap hit being futher reduced.
Cap currently is third in NFL space at around 60M
Notable potential options for further space...
Leo extension 13.5M
Golladay cut 13.5M
Adoree extension 8M
Lawrence extension 9M
Current cap 60M which can go up to a quite robust 104M with all 4 of those moves. 80-90 with 2 or 3.
Spitballing here and they probably won't do all this but they could fit it under the cap conceivably....or maybe they accomplish the top 4 on the list and go bargain shoping for the rest?
1.Barkley 10M 2023 cap hit
2.Jones 22M 2023 cap hit (For reference Daks was 19M 1st year)
3.Trade for a bigtime wide reciever est. Cap hit 25M
4. Sign a CB off the market Byron Jones, Jamal Dean, Peters, 15-18M
5. Another Offensive lineman with OT/OG versatility 12-15M
6. ILB upgrade to hold the fort until Beavers, McFadden are ready 8M
NYG also will be 179M under the cap in 2024. They are going to structure contracts accordingly. There is a ton of flexibility if they so choose to utilize it.
Go BPA in the draft at the remaining higher need positions.
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you're awfully defensive, and off on the wrong tangent.
I am defensive. There was a lot nonsense on the site this year. I get that when we are losing. We had a season none of us expected and we watched a kid that had a really tough stretch, finally do well. It was great story and it was the same ole' thing here. Meh.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
I think Jones clearly did all that was asked of him, and perhaps he even surprised Schoen and Daboll to an extent.
He has to take the next in development and start beating better teams, playoff teams, top of heap teams. This will require more of Jones, specifically in the vertical passing game. He will need more ammo around him to achieve it, for sure, but he still has things to demonstrate on gameday, in games exactly like last Saturday night at Philly.
Where you and diverge is you're ready to proclaim and pay him. There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it. I lean more towards the tag, but they might need to do a 3 year contract in order to ease the cap hits while they continue to build and sort this out.
Probably going to see 20+ new faces in Sept, and probably that many new again in 2024.
Judge his season as whole.
9-7-1
Won his first playoff game
Lost to the number 1 seed.
He was pressured on 26.6 percent of his drop backs. His
accuracy was number one in the entire NFL at over 81%. He was 4th in the least bad throws. Red Zone efficiency we know was 8th. YAC was near the bottom. WRs were bottom of the league and the OL was average at best.
Jones deserves the contract he going to get.
This is an ascending player.
Advanced passing stats - ( New Window )
Whole body of work relative to the talent level was outstanding.
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The Philly football world from time-to-time wants to drag that guy down, but he's excellent at this.
The decision to buy Hurts in the second round as a hedge against Wentz not living up to his contract is a great case study that you should always be looking for the next QB.
Always.
So very true.
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In comment 16012112 JonC said:
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you're awfully defensive, and off on the wrong tangent.
I am defensive. There was a lot nonsense on the site this year. I get that when we are losing. We had a season none of us expected and we watched a kid that had a really tough stretch, finally do well. It was great story and it was the same ole' thing here. Meh.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
I think Jones clearly did all that was asked of him, and perhaps he even surprised Schoen and Daboll to an extent.
He has to take the next in development and start beating better teams, playoff teams, top of heap teams. This will require more of Jones, specifically in the vertical passing game. He will need more ammo around him to achieve it, for sure, but he still has things to demonstrate on gameday, in games exactly like last Saturday night at Philly.
Where you and diverge is you're ready to proclaim and pay him. There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it. I lean more towards the tag, but they might need to do a 3 year contract in order to ease the cap hits while they continue to build and sort this out.
Probably going to see 20+ new faces in Sept, and probably that many new again in 2024.
That makes sense JC. I honestly think where most people differ on Jones is just to the degree of impact the rest of the offensive roster has on his stats and degree of passing success. And it's still unclear... lol. I have to say though, if I think of the QBs on the field Saturday night, who has the better game for the Giants? And does Philly's offense looks as good? To me the answer is obvious, but I agree if DJ takes up too much of the cap we will have a lot more trouble fielding a roster that competes with Philly and Dallas. And honestly even Washington. If WFT had a good QB they have a better roster than we do already. I do believe we are ahead with Daboll and staff, so if Schoen is able to keep feeding them better ingredients while managing the cap, we can certainly go all the way with DJ at QB. Just my opinion of course... lol
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In comment 16012112 JonC said:
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you're awfully defensive, and off on the wrong tangent.
I am defensive. There was a lot nonsense on the site this year. I get that when we are losing. We had a season none of us expected and we watched a kid that had a really tough stretch, finally do well. It was great story and it was the same ole' thing here. Meh.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
I think Jones clearly did all that was asked of him, and perhaps he even surprised Schoen and Daboll to an extent.
He has to take the next in development and start beating better teams, playoff teams, top of heap teams. This will require more of Jones, specifically in the vertical passing game. He will need more ammo around him to achieve it, for sure, but he still has things to demonstrate on gameday, in games exactly like last Saturday night at Philly.
Where you and diverge is you're ready to proclaim and pay him. There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it. I lean more towards the tag, but they might need to do a 3 year contract in order to ease the cap hits while they continue to build and sort this out.
Probably going to see 20+ new faces in Sept, and probably that many new again in 2024.
"There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it."
I will take that bet. After training camp and a year of games, Daboll knows who Jones is. Better than any of us, I suspect.
Every QB looked bad against Pilly this year Jon. I am talking big picture stuff here. Things that do not really need expertise.
Jones scored 30 points away in his first playoff game with an average offensive line and below average receiving targets. He took his team farther than many QBs that were said to have more talent and played with more talented players.
Jones was pressured on 26.6 % of drop backs even with the short passing game offense. 4th highest in the NFL. It seems intuitive why they schemed the way they did.
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
Seems intuitive MCL.
What do you have?
That is not the whole story.
That is not the whole story.
The question for me is;
Can you win a Superbowl with him: Yes, absolutely.
The other question.
Can you win a Superbowl because of him: Yes I do, with more talent at Wr. No one was winning the Superbowl as QB of the 2022 NY Giants.
None of this is very revealing and is basically football 101.
Because Philly and Dallas have superior rosters and it's not even a question. Even if you believe Hurts or Dak is better than Jones (I don't) we will contend in the NFC East with Jones if we can build the roster around him. Do you really think the Eagles would be in a different position right now with Jones under center?
1-5-1. I hope Schoen has it in his office if he needs a reminder. The game Saturday was decided on the fronts as it always is in the NFCE. Can't compete don't get off the bus.
All this other stuff is a bunch of fluff imv.
Jones needs to have the right kind of team to battle in this division. The Giants have built many of these type of teams.
Now finish building another and then we can judge Jones better and hold him to a higher standard.
I'll rip him plenty if he has the team around him. Until then it Schoen's time to get to work.
I was just highlighting the record part to make a point. It happened to be in your post. Point remains, but I should have just added that and not replied to your post. Sorry.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
Philly and Dallas were 2 of the top 3 teams in the NFC. Not many people beat them.
How about saying the Giants were 10-3-1 outside of Dallas and Philly (including playoffs). This is also a true stat.
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Why did the 20 - 30 yard throw (I mean air yards) almost completely disappear from the Giants offense?
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
Jones was pressured on 26.6 percent of drop backs even with a short passing offense and our deep threat had the most drops in the league.
Seems intuitive MCL.
What do you have?
Sorry, had to work...
I think it is more than that. He wasn't pressured all the time. And there has been plenty of video analysis out there showing receivers that looked open at that range. There should have been occasions where this happened, opportunities were there. Blaming it on pressure doesn't fully account.
From my review of his college videos and watching since he became a pro, that throw has been his Achilles heal. I am fairly certain that he has been coached not to do it. If so, it is smart coaching.
And, this doesn't mean that they won't return to this and work on it with him until he is better and more comfortable with it, but for now, he has been told, don't do it.
This leads to the short game that we've seen.
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And then point to the win/loss record.
That is not the whole story.
Not only is it the whole story, it is THE story. The only thing I care about is wins and losses. Jones converted big plays all season long with his legs and arms under pressure when NEEDED him to. With were 15th in scoring with those skill players.
The question for me is;
Can you win a Superbowl with him: Yes, absolutely.
The other question.
Can you win a Superbowl because of him: Yes I do, with more talent at Wr. No one was winning the Superbowl as QB of the 2022 NY Giants.
No QB was sniffing a SuperBowl with these wideouts. Daboll’s offense did a ton of scheming them open. Better defenses were able to stop that.
Just a guess but with Mara's comments about doing everything in our power to screw DJ up and now having a coaching staff the team is probably awfully confident in, I think they go the agressive route with all our cap space and flexibility to restructure or extend a few young core players.
This team loves keeping their first round picks and its quite rare they trade a #1. Last time was for some QB in 2004 (smirk). I don't know if they'll trade 25 or not for the WR but I think they will look to make a move for a true #1 WR or a guy that projects as one in Daboll’s offense.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
That's fair Jon. I will say for Allen, at least at 2nd half of that Cincy game, he didn't look any different than DJ to me. They both were desperate to make plays that weren't coming. Honestly Allen has not looked like the same guy to me that he was last year, with a couple of pretty bad games, at least that I watched. Especially the last one against Cincy. He did not look good.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to reign him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
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.
I was just highlighting the record part to make a point. It happened to be in your post. Point remains, but I should have just added that and not replied to your post. Sorry.
We got our wires crossed. I meant "none of that was my point" in response to Johnny. I appreciated your point. Schoen himself made it a point to specifically cite the division record yesterday. It matters to them.
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But he's proven he can make all the throws necessary.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to rein him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
Josh Allen’s numbers were basically the same as last year, with 80 less passing attempts. The interceptions did tick up a bit but I don’t think that has anything to do with Daboll not being there anymore. He did that while also having two guys in the top 10 in drop rate, a middling oline.
Not sure where this narrative started that Allen had a down year and missed Daboll. He was very good this year.
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In comment 16012791 JonC said:
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But he's proven he can make all the throws necessary.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to rein him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
Josh Allen’s numbers were basically the same as last year, with 80 less passing attempts. The interceptions did tick up a bit but I don’t think that has anything to do with Daboll not being there anymore. He did that while also having two guys in the top 10 in drop rate, a middling oline.
Not sure where this narrative started that Allen had a down year and missed Daboll. He was very good this year.
It's not about the stats ajr. It's my own perception of watching him play this year. And he certainly trended downward as the year went on. Just my opinion formed from watching Buffalo games this season. He's still a freak... lol. But my perception is Daboll reigned him in a bit more.
This is why you need an offense oriented HC.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
So is there a new training method that allows passers to improve in that area? If anyone will know about this it will be Daboll and Tierney.
But this is speculative. Maybe I’m all wet.
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Until we see Jones (and his receivers) attack the deep thirds and center of a secondary, we don't know what level his vertical game is. In the past, he's made some and he missed some, and he's been unable to even read some defenses. Watch Josh Allen, then watch Jones, and take note of what the former does versus what Jones does not. And, then watch next season and see if Jones starts doing more of it. That's the next progression to demonstrate. Basic as I can make it.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
Correct, and when they bottle up the first reads it takes away the YAC and ability to sustain drives. I didn't see many attempts to break tendency either, so they are keeping the ball in front of them and jumping the routes. Excellent film study and gameplanning.
People seem to want to heap endless piles of praise on him when he does well but criticizing him for objectively poor performances is hating.
This was always about price tag and still is. I'm good with the franchise but this Jones is our QB BS from our owners and fans gives him way more than he deserves.
Before this game I brought up in another thread the idea that a big long-term contract is risky because he has not responded well to pressure on numerous occasions in his career, at times, for extended stretches.
What many fail to grasp is the problem with Jones isn't anything about his play. You'd be foolish not to see the potential, it was there before the year clearly he just couldn't sort through the mental stuff with enough frequency to be of valued.
BD clearly helped with that. But imagine if you were voting someone in for 4 years, wouldn't it make you nervous if when things started to go bad their performance spiraled downward? Nobody hates Jones but it is nothing short of willful ignorance to act like this isn't a major risk factor in any kind of long term deal. He should have to prove this isn't him, prove it against good teams with some consistency.
For all the comparisons to Eli because they both work hard and are smart there is a GLARING mental difference. Eli's errors were more random and there was not one occasion in which it looked like the pressure was too much for him. Jones looked overwhelmed and played stupid in the most important game of his career. And this is not an isolated incident.
I would love for him to prove me wrong next year but fact is I do not want a QB to be paid as much as he will command to need his confidence propped up by his head coach and with the game plan needing to go well. Let BD do that with a cheaper asset if he can't spend a whole season proving this game isn't overwhelming to him. It doesn't mean play perfect, it actually means displaying some of that toughness in the head everyone seems to want to ascribe to him.
Look like you are confident you aren't making any more mistakes, not afraid you are going to make another one. It is really as simple as that.
I honestly can't wait until the deal is done and the focus slowly shifts elsewhere.
Follow up - is the quality of seeming overwhelmed by pressure ever something you want to say about a player getting a lot of money and a long term deal?
Follow up - is the quality of seeming overwhelmed by pressure ever something you want to say about a player getting a lot of money and a long term deal?
I'm intrigued by what I've seen. I want more of it and I want to see where it goes.
It's not three years ago. I think he'll will be a winner.
But that's me. We'll see what happens.
This whole season was insane pressure- for his career in a crucible every day. Every game. Media ppl parsing every throw to determine if he gets fired or improved his chances to stay.
If your talking about pressure like getting hit every drop back and not having time to throw the. I concede. Show me a qb that is not affected by that.
I’m not sure how much you follow or study the nuances of x and o football. Philly shut down everything. They removed our receivers 1v1 and attacked the line with reckless abandon.
That was a team failure. Primarily bc we were outclassed by superior talent. There wasn’t plays to be made or anything to elevate
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
The secret to DJs late season success was playing a checked-out Colts D and the Vikings 31st pass defense, twice. 1/3rd of his TDs came in 1/6th of his games.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Saying our division rivals will be applauding the signing fits your agenda.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
I think we are in the same spot here. IMO paying him as if he is a difference maker is just as absurd as saying he can't take another step forward or determining his worth solely based on stats.
Non-exclusive franchise seems to be the obvious move for that. Unless he is willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal below that AAV by $5M+ just let him play on it and prove it. This coming from someone who was 100% in the camp of franchise Saquon and let DJ walk if he doesn't meet your price before the string of games at the end of the season.
Not only are there questions of consistency but we have to see if he can stay healthy another year.
I get that people are so starved for a good team that Jones seems like a savior but this odd need to over-credit and under-blame the guy existed before he demonstrated ANY consistency. Right on up to the owner.
I don't really think there are that many scenarios here, his side was likely to negotiate hard anyway and it doesn't help the negotiating position when your owners are openly gushing about a player. Paying $35M for a league average or slightly better QB that could miss chunks of a season is a good way to build a mediocre at best team. Not sure why so many are salivating for that...
I'd much rather have better data that he is the real deal and pay him more. Anyone that claims to know that he is now has a hard time distinguishing between logic and optimism.
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Football is a team game. Expecting DJ to make up for shortcomings of the entire offense is not failure to produce in a big moment.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
The only issue with the tag is the market then takes over and there is the risk that a team would be willing to part with the two picks. If JS does not match his job then becomes to get at least a comparable performance from the position.
I think he has deal in mind he is willing to pay and if it gets beyond this then he has to make the big decision and be prepared to act that produces the desired result if he lets him walk.
I'd still move up in Bryce Young fell in the draft lol but I think he will wind up going number 1 but we'll see.
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Must be a Laffer Curve devotee?
I'm not excited about the others outside Young but if they tag and someone makes a offer JS does not want to match he can make that choice.
It probably would not be for this year and those picks would be for a year or two down the road.
I'd be interested to see how he would handle that situation from start to finish.
From my perspective, I put more value on the rest of the roster. DJ looked like shit there's no denying, but I put that mostly on how terribly we matched up against that Philly defense (and offense for that matter). It's not just on one guy, who plays pretty well under typical NFL pressure. I have said this many times, but which starting QB in the NFL looks good playing behind center for the Giants Saturday night? I'm trying to picture someone succeeding, but it aint happening... lol. Swap Hurts and Jones for that game. Are you going to tell me the outcome looks any different? Nobody can convince that the outcome is the same if not worse for the Giants.
Also, to the point on Eli, how did Eli look against Carolina in his first playoff game? I remember very clearly people wanting to run Eli right out of town after that game. He looked as bad in that game as DJ did this game, and with a better squad around him.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
Give me the name of the quarterback who you believe to be in a similar situation to Daniel Jones, yet is producing/succeeding in a way you feel Jones is incapable of. You won’t be able to because that person does not exist. You guys imagine these fantasy world QBs that don’t exist. The best QBs are playing with highly skilled players who, unfortunately, are significantly better than their Giants counterparts. A good QB shouldn’t need everything to be right, but no good QB is succeeding in a situation where very little is right.
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Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Must be a Laffer Curve devotee?
Well then Jones haters must be like Dr Doom, Nouriel Roubini. Nothing is ever good, all positive improvements must be ignored, and only the worst data fit into the worst light is correct.
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esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I'd still move up in Bryce Young fell in the draft lol but I think he will wind up going number 1 but we'll see.
That's not a bad idea, actually. I would do it for Stroud, too. I like Stroud better.
I'm not opposed to the aggressive reset. Let Jones and Barkley go, trade up for BY, CS or even Levis, and use that money saved from not re-signing DJ/SB to address other needs/upgrades.
The vilified Dak Prescott had over 300 yards against the Eagles in their second matchup.
I realize it was an intense playoff environment, but Jones struggled A LOT.
The vilified Dak Prescott had over 300 yards against the Eagles in their second matchup.
I realize it was an intense playoff environment, but Jones struggled A LOT.
OK, so do you feel Dak would have had 300 yards passing if he was behind center for us on Saturday night? Or better question... would he have had more than 109 yards and only one INT?
But that doesn't help that there is no #1 or #2 WR on the roster and only one NFL level TE. With the amount of starting holes on defense the GM has his work cut out for him this off season.
Again just my opinion. I think if Brian Daboll was coaching the Cowboys on Sunday and Daniel Jones was the QB Dallas wins that game. I think the Dallas OL and WRs and TEs are far superior to what the Giants had on Saturday. I have never thought Dak Prescott was a winning QB. IMO all he needs to do is manage the game with the talent Dallas has and he can't even do that. I also think some of that is on the horrible Mike McCarthy too.
Actually I think if our HC and offensive coaching staff coaches that Sunday SF/Dallas game even with Dak I think they win. I'm not a McCarthy fan... lol
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In comment 16012697 JonC said:
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Until we see Jones (and his receivers) attack the deep thirds and center of a secondary, we don't know what level his vertical game is. In the past, he's made some and he missed some, and he's been unable to even read some defenses. Watch Josh Allen, then watch Jones, and take note of what the former does versus what Jones does not. And, then watch next season and see if Jones starts doing more of it. That's the next progression to demonstrate. Basic as I can make it.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
Correct, and when they bottle up the first reads it takes away the YAC and ability to sustain drives. I didn't see many attempts to break tendency either, so they are keeping the ball in front of them and jumping the routes. Excellent film study and gameplanning.
Both of you are among the more reasonable and intelligent posters here.
Did you notice anything about QB play in 2022 across the board?
How were defenses attacking the entire league this year?
What type of offense is the flavor now?
The next few things I believe.
Schoen and Daboll both want Jones here.
Stating up front right now this will be unequivocally proven over the next months by what they say and do.
They will profess their desire to retain him unwaveringly in this off season.
I guarantee this.
They will sign him to a long term deal or he will be franchised.
Guaranteed.
Want to wager either of those points?
I think your scouting is biased. I saw it differently. Schoen and Daboll did too in my opinion and will be proven in just over a month.
Their actions and words are going to make this crystal clear to all of you.
Maybe you are right that Jones isn't good enough.
Not so many people agree with that anymore, certainly not the important people.
They are stating their desire to retain him publicly.
Think about what that means.
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
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In comment 16013032 prematurely_blue said:
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esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Idiots. Go looks at the stats of every single game against the Eagle THIS YEAR and get back to me. Aaron Rodgers had a QBR of 34.9 before they knocked him out of the game. How about we look at how Dan Marino do in the playoffs against top 10 defenses?
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I merely said the performance vs the Eagles was just one data point. And for that you shout at me and insult me. For views that are little different than JonC.
You're the fucking troll. Or perhaps your blood pressure and anxiety medications need to be modified. Stay away from my posts if you can't be civil.
And Europe 72 is the best Dead record with apologies to Live Dead.
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
So much to prove. There are folks literally clamoring here to give $40M per to a QB who hasn't shown he can compete with our main rivals in the biggest spots
I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but I'm not wrong when I tell you there's still stuff for him to prove.
The Judge years were a clown show and I think you likely know more of that than you can even say. By the end of the season Jones looked like a different QB in 2022. Confident, he even threw with more zip.
So, I agree Jones has more to show because he is not done ascending. Jones will be a Giant is 2023 with better parts. We don't even have to argue about this because we are going to get to watch it play out.
The Eagle game reminded people of who he was, I feel that. The Eagles made QB's look worse than Jones did this year. That is legitimate context that played out over the entire season. They were rested and at home...
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In comment 16013041 Producer said:
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In comment 16013032 prematurely_blue said:
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esoteric qualities of Jones that are very hard to define.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Idiots. Go looks at the stats of every single game against the Eagle THIS YEAR and get back to me. Aaron Rodgers had a QBR of 34.9 before they knocked him out of the game. How about we look at how Dan Marino do in the playoffs against top 10 defenses?
WHAT DO THOSE GAMES LOOK LIKE?
The Eagles had 4 PLAYERS WITH DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS and totaled 70.
Historic.
Daniel Jones had the nearly lowest bad throw percentage of QBs in 2022 at 12.2%
You are a troll.
I merely said the performance vs the Eagles was just one data point. And for that you shout at me and insult me. For views that are little different than JonC.
You're the fucking troll. Or perhaps your blood pressure and anxiety medications need to be modified. Stay away from my posts if you can't be civil.
And Europe 72 is the best Dead record with apologies to Live Dead.
A very good point by TTH about judging qbs by wins and losses. Thegratefulhead?
Anyone?
The money we are talking about will not be a big deal. The QB performed well with limited offensive talent and the Owner, GM and coach all publicly want him back.
Realistically, you all know what it is going to happen don't you?
Not trying to be a smart ass, but Jones is a Giant in 2023.
It is what it is.
There is no stat, and definitely no one's scouting of Jones on BBI is going to change my belief that a QB that won his first playoff can go farther with better parts than the Giants had in 2022.
It is reasonable to want to see if he can.
VERY REASONABLE
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Then what to you do with a 1-5-1 record in the NFC east. He owns that too, looking at it your way.
A very good point by TTH about judging qbs by wins and losses. Thegratefulhead?
Big picture, the fans were chanting his name...
The overall talent deficit is large still. It is pass catching league the receiving talent on both teams is >>>>> Giants.
There are 2 high beater schemes.
Mesh concepts (double shallow crossers)
Smash concepts (high low the CBs)
Options with a high crosser (usually your slot guy has the option depending on the leverage the S is using against him)
Weakside floods: routes at various levels going weakside where there is usually 1 less defender. Usually involves a high crosser coming from the strong side.
Many of these beater schemes require hitting the deep 3rd with high crossers, or deep outs.
Single high looks, quarters and sixths can beat some of these offensive concepts. So defenses will mix it up using disguises.
The Giants run a lot of smash schemes, and meshes. Usually hitting the underneath targets.
It's clear he'll be back next season, pending a late change of heart or contract tactics. But, while 2022 was a terrific rebound season for Jones, he now looks like an average NFL QB to me, with plus running ability. He rose from obscurity to average, imv. I recognize that's a hard opinion to swallow and some will feel it's glass half empty. But, with his contract up it's difficult timing to be definitive imv ... and conversations required I wish we could overhear between Schoen and Daboll.
There are 2 high beater schemes.
Mesh concepts (double shallow crossers)
Smash concepts (high low the CBs)
Options with a high crosser (usually your slot guy has the option depending on the leverage the S is using against him)
Weakside floods: routes at various levels going weakside where there is usually 1 less defender. Usually involves a high crosser coming from the strong side.
Many of these beater schemes require hitting the deep 3rd with high crossers, or deep outs.
Single high looks, quarters and sixths can beat some of these offensive concepts. So defenses will mix it up using disguises.
The Giants run a lot of smash schemes, and meshes. Usually hitting the underneath targets.
I would have done EXACTLY what Kafka and Daboll did this year. The yardage lost from a turnover is large, never mind momentum which can be subjective, but I believe real. Against Minnesota, when he had time, he went through progressions well. I think he executes the game plan they install.
That is the crux of things. You and others believe this scheme was employed because of some deficit in Jones.
I disagree, Jones is executing what he is given. He was number 1 in the NFL at being on target at over 81%
Number 1
Bad throw percentage was 12.2% better than 29 other QBs including Allen, Mahomes, Herbert and Burrow.
Gentlemen, before you go Strawman on me.
I AM NOT SAYING JONES IS COMPARABLE TO THOSE QBs.
Save your fingers the typing, you would arguing against air.
9-7-1
Made the playoffs
Won his first playoff game by playing great.
Respected by teammates
Respected by coaches
Respected by management
Respected by ownership
Fans chanted his name
Showed large improvement in 2022
Lacking production on the OL
Well below average pass catching talent in 2022.
This all seems very intuitive.
I believe it is bias. Until game 6 of this year I was WITH THE CRITICS of Jones. Jones answered everything he could have with the talent around and the game plan that was given to him in 2022.
I stand by my claim that all of management will sing Jones praises this offseason and publicly claim to want him back.
Jones will be signed or tagged and that will be confirmed. If they tag him and someone offers him, they will match instead of taking the picks.
This is a high low putting a defender in conflict.
However, if you never try to hit the high, there is no conflict anymore. There is nothing wrong with the scheme, the problem is the execution.
In general trying to have a short/quick passing game worked well. And I have said in numerous posts, was the right thing to do with this team. I've seen enough ALL 22s to know that there were opportunities to hit open receivers in the deep 3rd. There were times the protection was there... Almost without fail, Jones chose not to throw but to run instead. When the Giants ran into a good defense, they were able to exploit this void in the Giants attack.
The only conclusion I am able to draw from this is that he has been coached not to make those throws...
Then the question has to be WHY?
Please don't act like I am a Jones hater. I'm not. I think he played well this year. He made improvements by leaps and bounds. I am eager to see what he can do in year 2 of this system. Hopefully, learning how to take advantage of those deep 3rd throws is part of it. If the Giants can do it consistently, it will really put defenses on their heals.
Will it work better with better OL and better WR. Sure. But, don't kid yourself that there were virtually no opportunities with this surrounding cast. This is the NFL. All these guys have talent. There are opportunities in every game.
This is a high low putting a defender in conflict.
However, if you never try to hit the high, there is no conflict anymore. There is nothing wrong with the scheme, the problem is the execution.
In general trying to have a short/quick passing game worked well. And I have said in numerous posts, was the right thing to do with this team. I've seen enough ALL 22s to know that there were opportunities to hit open receivers in the deep 3rd. There were times the protection was there... Almost without fail, Jones chose not to throw but to run instead. When the Giants ran into a good defense, they were able to exploit this void in the Giants attack.
The only conclusion I am able to draw from this is that he has been coached not to make those throws...
Then the question has to be WHY?
Please don't act like I am a Jones hater. I'm not. I think he played well this year. He made improvements by leaps and bounds. I am eager to see what he can do in year 2 of this system. Hopefully, learning how to take advantage of those deep 3rd throws is part of it. If the Giants can do it consistently, it will really put defenses on their heals.
Will it work better with better OL and better WR. Sure. But, don't kid yourself that there were virtually no opportunities with this surrounding cast. This is the NFL. All these guys have talent. There are opportunities in every game.
The "why" is a guess.
In watching the all 22 this year, I saw things Jones left on the table. All QBs did.
Here is my best guess from evaluation. The game plan was to hit the first read if it was there. The first read was going to be the highest efficiency target. I feel like I am typing words we all know.
That was my take from watching the all 22. I don't think Jones was afraid of going deep, I believe they declined his option, and Jones did exactly what he was asked with a high degree of efficiency because it was the only way his career would continue.
That is they crux is why they want him back. Jones executed the plan.
Kafka and Daboll definitely know why.
What does it mean then that they publicly want Jones back?
Seems intuitive to me.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
The Giants seem to clearly want Jones at all levels or do you believe they are going to only offer 3 years at 32 per or the tag? We are going to know the answers really soon.
From a big picture standpoint, I see this as absolutely getting done. I recognize what you and others are saying about the fact that Jones has not displayed a deep game.
I am saying it does not matter. We can go round and round and try to prove that to each other but I think it pointless. They fact that Daboll wants him tells me all I need to know.
I believe Jones will be a Giant in 2023 and it will likely be a 5 year deal. I think he deserves it, I think he is ascending. I firmly believe he is going to outplay the fair contract he gets because Garret wasted 2 years of his career. The Giants are getting a bargain.
That point is obviously true.
Will he have better results if Schoen can achieve the above objectives? I think anyone, and all of us in the DJ doubters club will agree that, yes, he will have better results.
How much better is the sticking point. While there were the much-talked about deficiencies at those other positions, you can look at a number of plays where DJ fell short of where you would feel confident that he will produce at an elite level if he had the help we're talking about. And that's because there have been cases during games where guys are open, or open enough, that DJ missed throws or didn't throw it when he should have.
There were a number of these plays in the Eagles game, but all season there were examples of this. I don't care that Darius Slayton isn't a superstar, but if he's open, make the throw and hit him. When you see a QB not capitalize on some of the opportunities that HAVE been there, that's where the questions come in for some us like myself and JonC and others.
There is this ability that the great QBs have of throwing a receiver open. That is, the coverage might be there, but putting the ball in a spot to give your receiver a good chance at making the play, that's what your top QBs do. This has been something I haven't seen a lot from DJ, certainly not in the Eagles' game, but all year there were these types of plays. Agree with the thoughts on the lack of attacking the deep third.
Sometimes you have to put the ball up and trust your receiver to come down with it. The talk of DJ's low interception totals is a much-discussed talking point to bolster DJ. I do not believe it is. I believe those low INTs are a function of being too[i] conservative in the passing game decisions. And that idea is further bolstered when you consider that along with the low INTs, there's also a low number of passing TDs as well. I'd much rather see Daniel throw 30 scores and 10 INTs then 15-5. Is this a function of scheme and coaching Daniel to play conservatively? Very possible, and in fact I would say likely.
However, Daboll didn't coach Josh Allen this way. So you have to have the question of why. Is it soley a function of the lack of ability of the receivers, or is part of it a lack of confidence in DJ's ability to be successful with the downfield passing attack? Both can be true.
So everyone can debate and say it was this reason or that reason, but until Schoen brings in more talent at the receiver position, and Jones either demonstrates this ability or fails to, we won't [i]really know definitively and with absolute certainty what that right answer is.
That's where there are those lingering doubts. I do not believe it's a slam dunk that DJ is going to be as good as some of the QB comparisons that have been made with better receivers, because of many of the observations made when the plays to be made were there, and the throws weren't...either misfires or shots not taken.
But I am willing to 1) be open to the possibility that I am wrong on this point, and 2) leave room for DJ to continue to improve this part of his game and get there.
But as JonC has said, those are things that he still has to prove he can do.
Fans chanting his name is a nonfactor. Fans will embrace anyone in that position who plays well because it's the most valuable position in pro football.
Ownership extolling his virtues is fluff. Let's revisit the love letters written on Giants letterhead about Joe Judge and Dave Gettleman and then talk about how much their opinion should tip the scales.
He is respected by players and coaches. Fine. I think fans *only* care about measurement that when it fits their specific argument at the time. Odell Beckham Jr was highly respected and loved by his teammates and coaches. There was never a bad word said abut him or his work ethic. Few Giants fans care.
If you want a reason to be bullish on Jones it's the fit with the coaching staff, and the final month of the season, his games against Minnesota and Indianapolis. That is potential.
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executed the plan, and did it well. The team wayyy over achieved.
All good.
The point that I and others are making though, is that not all the returns are in regarding Jones. He did what he was asked to do, but there is more that CAN be asked, but wasn't. How well does he perform when those things are asked as well.
The amount of improvement he has made, makes it worth the gamble to move forward with him and see if he takes that next step. But there is absolutely another step.
No argument that there is another step. Daboll can only Judge Jones by what Daboll asked Jones to do, right?
The Giants seem to clearly want Jones at all levels or do you believe they are going to only offer 3 years at 32 per or the tag? We are going to know the answers really soon.
From a big picture standpoint, I see this as absolutely getting done. I recognize what you and others are saying about the fact that Jones has not displayed a deep game.
I am saying it does not matter. We can go round and round and try to prove that to each other but I think it pointless. They fact that Daboll wants him tells me all I need to know.
I believe Jones will be a Giant in 2023 and it will likely be a 5 year deal. I think he deserves it, I think he is ascending. I firmly believe he is going to outplay the fair contract he gets because Garret wasted 2 years of his career. The Giants are getting a bargain.
I am expecting a 4 or 5 year deal that give the Giants an out after 3. I expect something between 32 and 35 AAV.
Something like 95-100M gtd. I am onboard with that!
The fact that they want to bring him back is obviously a good sign. However it doesn't mean he is a finished product, or a certainty to reach the next level.
The number I put above might not be what Team Jones wants... But the Giants have the tag as leverage. I would not be surprise if the tag is used, and a deal worked out later. Jones will be the Giants QB in 2024, there is no doubt about that.
We ain't far apart.