Quoted "Just taking away that first read because we knew they wanted to take us out of the game by getting away quick throws and by him extending the play with his legs,” Eagles defensive end Brandon Graham said after. “When you look at [Bills quarterback] Josh Allen and you see the system that he runs, it’s similar to what [the Giants] run; the same thing. We just played off that. Take away his first [read] and get him to move around. We gave ourselves a chance to put pressure on him. I think it’s a credit to [Eagles Defensive Coordinator Jonathan Gannon] and the coaches.”
Defense said it was "easy." Them made fun of Giants and said,"I thought the Giants were coming to town? Who was that??"
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In comment 16012112 JonC said:
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you're awfully defensive, and off on the wrong tangent.
I am defensive. There was a lot nonsense on the site this year. I get that when we are losing. We had a season none of us expected and we watched a kid that had a really tough stretch, finally do well. It was great story and it was the same ole' thing here. Meh.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
I think Jones clearly did all that was asked of him, and perhaps he even surprised Schoen and Daboll to an extent.
He has to take the next in development and start beating better teams, playoff teams, top of heap teams. This will require more of Jones, specifically in the vertical passing game. He will need more ammo around him to achieve it, for sure, but he still has things to demonstrate on gameday, in games exactly like last Saturday night at Philly.
Where you and diverge is you're ready to proclaim and pay him. There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it. I lean more towards the tag, but they might need to do a 3 year contract in order to ease the cap hits while they continue to build and sort this out.
Probably going to see 20+ new faces in Sept, and probably that many new again in 2024.
That makes sense JC. I honestly think where most people differ on Jones is just to the degree of impact the rest of the offensive roster has on his stats and degree of passing success. And it's still unclear... lol. I have to say though, if I think of the QBs on the field Saturday night, who has the better game for the Giants? And does Philly's offense looks as good? To me the answer is obvious, but I agree if DJ takes up too much of the cap we will have a lot more trouble fielding a roster that competes with Philly and Dallas. And honestly even Washington. If WFT had a good QB they have a better roster than we do already. I do believe we are ahead with Daboll and staff, so if Schoen is able to keep feeding them better ingredients while managing the cap, we can certainly go all the way with DJ at QB. Just my opinion of course... lol
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In comment 16012112 JonC said:
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you're awfully defensive, and off on the wrong tangent.
I am defensive. There was a lot nonsense on the site this year. I get that when we are losing. We had a season none of us expected and we watched a kid that had a really tough stretch, finally do well. It was great story and it was the same ole' thing here. Meh.
Sorry, if I am off on tangent but this season for that kid should be celebrated. I bristle that some take every opportunity to ding him here. It seems small at times.
None that is directed at you Jon, but the board in general. I have enormous respect for both your contributions to BBI and your football acumen. I have diverged from your position on Jones that we previously agreed on. I saw improvements this year that you did not. Nothing personal.
I think Jones clearly did all that was asked of him, and perhaps he even surprised Schoen and Daboll to an extent.
He has to take the next in development and start beating better teams, playoff teams, top of heap teams. This will require more of Jones, specifically in the vertical passing game. He will need more ammo around him to achieve it, for sure, but he still has things to demonstrate on gameday, in games exactly like last Saturday night at Philly.
Where you and diverge is you're ready to proclaim and pay him. There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it. I lean more towards the tag, but they might need to do a 3 year contract in order to ease the cap hits while they continue to build and sort this out.
Probably going to see 20+ new faces in Sept, and probably that many new again in 2024.
"There's more to be seen and you can bet your arse Daboll knows it."
I will take that bet. After training camp and a year of games, Daboll knows who Jones is. Better than any of us, I suspect.
Every QB looked bad against Pilly this year Jon. I am talking big picture stuff here. Things that do not really need expertise.
Jones scored 30 points away in his first playoff game with an average offensive line and below average receiving targets. He took his team farther than many QBs that were said to have more talent and played with more talented players.
Jones was pressured on 26.6 % of drop backs even with the short passing game offense. 4th highest in the NFL. It seems intuitive why they schemed the way they did.
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
Seems intuitive MCL.
What do you have?
That is not the whole story.
That is not the whole story.
The question for me is;
Can you win a Superbowl with him: Yes, absolutely.
The other question.
Can you win a Superbowl because of him: Yes I do, with more talent at Wr. No one was winning the Superbowl as QB of the 2022 NY Giants.
None of this is very revealing and is basically football 101.
Because Philly and Dallas have superior rosters and it's not even a question. Even if you believe Hurts or Dak is better than Jones (I don't) we will contend in the NFC East with Jones if we can build the roster around him. Do you really think the Eagles would be in a different position right now with Jones under center?
1-5-1. I hope Schoen has it in his office if he needs a reminder. The game Saturday was decided on the fronts as it always is in the NFCE. Can't compete don't get off the bus.
All this other stuff is a bunch of fluff imv.
Jones needs to have the right kind of team to battle in this division. The Giants have built many of these type of teams.
Now finish building another and then we can judge Jones better and hold him to a higher standard.
I'll rip him plenty if he has the team around him. Until then it Schoen's time to get to work.
I was just highlighting the record part to make a point. It happened to be in your post. Point remains, but I should have just added that and not replied to your post. Sorry.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
Philly and Dallas were 2 of the top 3 teams in the NFC. Not many people beat them.
How about saying the Giants were 10-3-1 outside of Dallas and Philly (including playoffs). This is also a true stat.
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Why did the 20 - 30 yard throw (I mean air yards) almost completely disappear from the Giants offense?
I mean, just by accident, it should have happened more often than it did...
I have my theory, but I am interested in others.
Jones was pressured on 26.6 percent of drop backs even with a short passing offense and our deep threat had the most drops in the league.
Seems intuitive MCL.
What do you have?
Sorry, had to work...
I think it is more than that. He wasn't pressured all the time. And there has been plenty of video analysis out there showing receivers that looked open at that range. There should have been occasions where this happened, opportunities were there. Blaming it on pressure doesn't fully account.
From my review of his college videos and watching since he became a pro, that throw has been his Achilles heal. I am fairly certain that he has been coached not to do it. If so, it is smart coaching.
And, this doesn't mean that they won't return to this and work on it with him until he is better and more comfortable with it, but for now, he has been told, don't do it.
This leads to the short game that we've seen.
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And then point to the win/loss record.
That is not the whole story.
Not only is it the whole story, it is THE story. The only thing I care about is wins and losses. Jones converted big plays all season long with his legs and arms under pressure when NEEDED him to. With were 15th in scoring with those skill players.
The question for me is;
Can you win a Superbowl with him: Yes, absolutely.
The other question.
Can you win a Superbowl because of him: Yes I do, with more talent at Wr. No one was winning the Superbowl as QB of the 2022 NY Giants.
No QB was sniffing a SuperBowl with these wideouts. Daboll’s offense did a ton of scheming them open. Better defenses were able to stop that.
Just a guess but with Mara's comments about doing everything in our power to screw DJ up and now having a coaching staff the team is probably awfully confident in, I think they go the agressive route with all our cap space and flexibility to restructure or extend a few young core players.
This team loves keeping their first round picks and its quite rare they trade a #1. Last time was for some QB in 2004 (smirk). I don't know if they'll trade 25 or not for the WR but I think they will look to make a move for a true #1 WR or a guy that projects as one in Daboll’s offense.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
That's fair Jon. I will say for Allen, at least at 2nd half of that Cincy game, he didn't look any different than DJ to me. They both were desperate to make plays that weren't coming. Honestly Allen has not looked like the same guy to me that he was last year, with a couple of pretty bad games, at least that I watched. Especially the last one against Cincy. He did not look good.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to reign him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
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I was just highlighting the record part to make a point. It happened to be in your post. Point remains, but I should have just added that and not replied to your post. Sorry.
We got our wires crossed. I meant "none of that was my point" in response to Johnny. I appreciated your point. Schoen himself made it a point to specifically cite the division record yesterday. It matters to them.
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But he's proven he can make all the throws necessary.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to rein him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
Josh Allen’s numbers were basically the same as last year, with 80 less passing attempts. The interceptions did tick up a bit but I don’t think that has anything to do with Daboll not being there anymore. He did that while also having two guys in the top 10 in drop rate, a middling oline.
Not sure where this narrative started that Allen had a down year and missed Daboll. He was very good this year.
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In comment 16012791 JonC said:
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But he's proven he can make all the throws necessary.
Of that there is no doubt. I think he is missing Daboll, especially to rein him in on dopey mistakes. I still like Burrow better than pretty much all of them, if I had to pick one (Yes even more than Mahomes... lol).
Josh Allen’s numbers were basically the same as last year, with 80 less passing attempts. The interceptions did tick up a bit but I don’t think that has anything to do with Daboll not being there anymore. He did that while also having two guys in the top 10 in drop rate, a middling oline.
Not sure where this narrative started that Allen had a down year and missed Daboll. He was very good this year.
It's not about the stats ajr. It's my own perception of watching him play this year. And he certainly trended downward as the year went on. Just my opinion formed from watching Buffalo games this season. He's still a freak... lol. But my perception is Daboll reigned him in a bit more.
This is why you need an offense oriented HC.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
So is there a new training method that allows passers to improve in that area? If anyone will know about this it will be Daboll and Tierney.
But this is speculative. Maybe I’m all wet.
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Until we see Jones (and his receivers) attack the deep thirds and center of a secondary, we don't know what level his vertical game is. In the past, he's made some and he missed some, and he's been unable to even read some defenses. Watch Josh Allen, then watch Jones, and take note of what the former does versus what Jones does not. And, then watch next season and see if Jones starts doing more of it. That's the next progression to demonstrate. Basic as I can make it.
Doing it in practice for Daboll is one thing, doing it with live bullets flying in a game is another.
I just saw this, and I think we are making the same point about Jones on the same throws. He's not attacking them. He hasn't been good at them in the past. Can these coaches work on him to improve? I'm sure they are gonna try, but we don't know yet. But the lack of this throw is causing DBs on teams like the Eagles to jump the short routes.
Correct, and when they bottle up the first reads it takes away the YAC and ability to sustain drives. I didn't see many attempts to break tendency either, so they are keeping the ball in front of them and jumping the routes. Excellent film study and gameplanning.
People seem to want to heap endless piles of praise on him when he does well but criticizing him for objectively poor performances is hating.
This was always about price tag and still is. I'm good with the franchise but this Jones is our QB BS from our owners and fans gives him way more than he deserves.
Before this game I brought up in another thread the idea that a big long-term contract is risky because he has not responded well to pressure on numerous occasions in his career, at times, for extended stretches.
What many fail to grasp is the problem with Jones isn't anything about his play. You'd be foolish not to see the potential, it was there before the year clearly he just couldn't sort through the mental stuff with enough frequency to be of valued.
BD clearly helped with that. But imagine if you were voting someone in for 4 years, wouldn't it make you nervous if when things started to go bad their performance spiraled downward? Nobody hates Jones but it is nothing short of willful ignorance to act like this isn't a major risk factor in any kind of long term deal. He should have to prove this isn't him, prove it against good teams with some consistency.
For all the comparisons to Eli because they both work hard and are smart there is a GLARING mental difference. Eli's errors were more random and there was not one occasion in which it looked like the pressure was too much for him. Jones looked overwhelmed and played stupid in the most important game of his career. And this is not an isolated incident.
I would love for him to prove me wrong next year but fact is I do not want a QB to be paid as much as he will command to need his confidence propped up by his head coach and with the game plan needing to go well. Let BD do that with a cheaper asset if he can't spend a whole season proving this game isn't overwhelming to him. It doesn't mean play perfect, it actually means displaying some of that toughness in the head everyone seems to want to ascribe to him.
Look like you are confident you aren't making any more mistakes, not afraid you are going to make another one. It is really as simple as that.
I honestly can't wait until the deal is done and the focus slowly shifts elsewhere.
Follow up - is the quality of seeming overwhelmed by pressure ever something you want to say about a player getting a lot of money and a long term deal?
Follow up - is the quality of seeming overwhelmed by pressure ever something you want to say about a player getting a lot of money and a long term deal?
I'm intrigued by what I've seen. I want more of it and I want to see where it goes.
It's not three years ago. I think he'll will be a winner.
But that's me. We'll see what happens.
This whole season was insane pressure- for his career in a crucible every day. Every game. Media ppl parsing every throw to determine if he gets fired or improved his chances to stay.
If your talking about pressure like getting hit every drop back and not having time to throw the. I concede. Show me a qb that is not affected by that.
I’m not sure how much you follow or study the nuances of x and o football. Philly shut down everything. They removed our receivers 1v1 and attacked the line with reckless abandon.
That was a team failure. Primarily bc we were outclassed by superior talent. There wasn’t plays to be made or anything to elevate
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
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Is incapable of progressing to his second and third read? That seems unlikely
Unless I m wrong going through your progressions. Begins with option 1
However a problem could arise if the protection breaks down before you can get to #2 or 3
As Daniel was pressured on 65% of his drop backs, seems to me it was a sound game plan by the Eagles
There is no third read for Jones. The secret of his late season success was first read.. second read (time permitting)... run. They were coaching him to take off if the first or 2nd read wasn't there.
The secret to DJs late season success was playing a checked-out Colts D and the Vikings 31st pass defense, twice. 1/3rd of his TDs came in 1/6th of his games.
What do you want to call the thing he does where he starts holding the ball too long? Making bad throws? And doing incredibly stupid things like losing key yards in vital situations when he could have easily thrown the ball away?
We all agree that the talent is there. So what are we chalking that up to if not a mental breakdowns?
A head coach says positive things about their QB. That's like using something a kid's Mom says about them as some kind of universal truth about them.
Going up against a more talented team doesn't mean you have to be the worst PFF graded player on your offense in the most important game.
It is you who can't separate your own feelings from what has been in front of us. No one is saying he isn't capable of overcoming these very clear confidence issues.
But he has spent far too much of his career succumbing to them and they are rearing themselves later in his career and in important games more than any successful QB I've seen. The whole team was overmatched on talent he was the only one looking like he completely forgot the progress he's made this year.
Any other QBs lay a lot of eggs for a good portion of their early career, then lay an egg in their most important game turn out to be great players?
This isn't saying he can't or won't be a great player. It IS saying these kind of uneven performances, clearly based on mental issues, makes it anything but a forgone conclusion that he is going to be worth a big contract.
I think you describe the Eagles performance well. To me, it is one data point. Not yet the whole story. But it's a big data point and it seems many here are far too eager to ignore it, like it didn't happen. In the biggest game of his career against an admittedly vicious defense, we saw Jones basically choke. There was indeed a lot of pressure. But there wasn't so much pressure that Jones couldn't make any plays. Sorry, he could have, and should have, played much better.
In the playoffs it's going to be like this. The playoffs are for big time QBs and big time defenses. I wouldn't give Jones anything we can't get out of in two years. If we give him $40M per for 3, I really think they'll be poppibg corks in Philly, Dallas and Wash. Jones doesn't scare anyone other than the Vikings, at this juncture.
Saying our division rivals will be applauding the signing fits your agenda.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
I agree with this. First though I would like to see the Giants as a team get better so that they can allow the QB to better execute when they face these tougher teams.
What I see not from the stats and the analysis but just from watching is the team gets outclassed upfront too many times. This makes it much more difficult as the down/distance situations go to the much harder to execute category. This is where the insufficient WR shows up as well.
Giants can help here by doing two things. Improve the OL and add a upper tier WR to help with those situations.
I see a lot of comparisons of Jones to Allen's playoff game.
Well guess what? They both faced similar situations. Both teams could not run the ball and neither QB could shake free either to help with that. The bulk of pass attempts were in the more difficult situations.
Cincy and the Eagles. Not the case on those teams. They had zero issue on the LOS and the numbers show it. Take a look for yourself.
I think we are in the same spot here. IMO paying him as if he is a difference maker is just as absurd as saying he can't take another step forward or determining his worth solely based on stats.
Non-exclusive franchise seems to be the obvious move for that. Unless he is willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal below that AAV by $5M+ just let him play on it and prove it. This coming from someone who was 100% in the camp of franchise Saquon and let DJ walk if he doesn't meet your price before the string of games at the end of the season.
Not only are there questions of consistency but we have to see if he can stay healthy another year.
I get that people are so starved for a good team that Jones seems like a savior but this odd need to over-credit and under-blame the guy existed before he demonstrated ANY consistency. Right on up to the owner.
I don't really think there are that many scenarios here, his side was likely to negotiate hard anyway and it doesn't help the negotiating position when your owners are openly gushing about a player. Paying $35M for a league average or slightly better QB that could miss chunks of a season is a good way to build a mediocre at best team. Not sure why so many are salivating for that...
I'd much rather have better data that he is the real deal and pay him more. Anyone that claims to know that he is now has a hard time distinguishing between logic and optimism.
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Football is a team game. Expecting DJ to make up for shortcomings of the entire offense is not failure to produce in a big moment.
Sorry pal. There’s a pile of BBIdiots who believe Joe Burrow would be exactly the same if his best receiver was David Sills, not Jamarr Chase. Not to mention the mythical, yet nonexistent, quarterback who does everything that these fans want with the same supporting cast that Jones has.
I can’t help but think about Jalen Hurts’ first playoff game last season in which the Eagles went into the 4th quarter trailing 31-0. Hurts was 16-33 for 140 yards with 2 interceptions through 3 quarters. Half of his passing yards were on meaningless drives late. The craziest thing is that Hurts’ offensive line was infinitely better than any Jones has played behind and his best receiver, rookie Devonta Smith, was far superior to any the Giants have had since they traded Odell.
The idea that he’s incapable of playing at a high level against good teams even if the supporting cast improved beyond among the worst in the sport (where it is right now) is ridiculous.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
The only issue with the tag is the market then takes over and there is the risk that a team would be willing to part with the two picks. If JS does not match his job then becomes to get at least a comparable performance from the position.
I think he has deal in mind he is willing to pay and if it gets beyond this then he has to make the big decision and be prepared to act that produces the desired result if he lets him walk.
I'd still move up in Bryce Young fell in the draft lol but I think he will wind up going number 1 but we'll see.
Jones supporters are little like Keynesian Economists. If you just print more money, it's gonna be fine. If Jones had this and that it would be fine. Print print print, the theory should work.
The post, which comes from Eagles defensive coach, merely points out what they did. They said it was easy. They said how easy it was.
I mean, I am OK with Jones resigning but he is not the second coming of Steve Young OK.
Must be a Laffer Curve devotee?
I'm not excited about the others outside Young but if they tag and someone makes a offer JS does not want to match he can make that choice.
It probably would not be for this year and those picks would be for a year or two down the road.
I'd be interested to see how he would handle that situation from start to finish.
From my perspective, I put more value on the rest of the roster. DJ looked like shit there's no denying, but I put that mostly on how terribly we matched up against that Philly defense (and offense for that matter). It's not just on one guy, who plays pretty well under typical NFL pressure. I have said this many times, but which starting QB in the NFL looks good playing behind center for the Giants Saturday night? I'm trying to picture someone succeeding, but it aint happening... lol. Swap Hurts and Jones for that game. Are you going to tell me the outcome looks any different? Nobody can convince that the outcome is the same if not worse for the Giants.
Also, to the point on Eli, how did Eli look against Carolina in his first playoff game? I remember very clearly people wanting to run Eli right out of town after that game. He looked as bad in that game as DJ did this game, and with a better squad around him.
Oh yeah that classic hero story where the "hero" can't make it 10 feet up the tower to save the princess but legend still tells of his glory because it was a super tall tower, and it was windy that day, he didn't have the right shoes with him and his Mom was mean to him that morning.
Give me the name of the quarterback who you believe to be in a similar situation to Daniel Jones, yet is producing/succeeding in a way you feel Jones is incapable of. You won’t be able to because that person does not exist. You guys imagine these fantasy world QBs that don’t exist. The best QBs are playing with highly skilled players who, unfortunately, are significantly better than their Giants counterparts. A good QB shouldn’t need everything to be right, but no good QB is succeeding in a situation where very little is right.