If Jones signs a multi year deal and doesn't play on the tag what do you think the chances are of tagging Saquon? Seems like good value getting a rb of his caliber at only $10 mil and can push a decision on him to the following year? Or is this simply a case of 1 of the 2 being signed and the other is gone nearly certainly?
It'll be interesting if Barkley is re-signed how many will consider it a failure right away without letting it play out.
I really don't care about replacing RB production.
The money is better spent elsewhere (WR, TE, IOL, LB, DL, EDGE, CB), so many places... More impactful.
Word is Giants offer is the 12M ballpark, Schoen volunteers they're not close, SB says he's not looking to reset the market, which is a nice soundbyte but reality is he very likely views himself at CMC's level.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
And only teams that just need that final player to put them over the top on offense. The Bills and Lions come to mind.
I love Saquon, but a high dollar commitment over four or five years makes little sense. I would either do a "tag, tender and trade" or let him walk and get the compensatory pick.
Word is Giants offer is the 12M ballpark, Schoen volunteers they're not close, SB says he's not looking to reset the market, which is a nice soundbyte but reality is he very likely views himself at CMC's level.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
The tag is only in play if it isn't used on Jones...
If Jones is tagged, SB is walking.
Can we find a way to pay him a lower salary, but guarantee more money over a longer contract that will likely never get met in terms of length?
That isn’t creative, that’s lowballing him. Why would Barkley agree to an incentive laden deal when he can walk into FA and get more guaranteed money? He’s not in prove it mode, he’s a top tier player at his position. The only way his price comes down is if we do a deal with Jones and free up the tag.
The crux of what the Giants face. If they want to play their best hand of cards on Barkley, they should accelerate the process of getting to an agreement with Jones.
I suspect that the Jones demands will be so high that they will need to use the tag there and be forced to simply let Barkley walk given those absurd demands (not absurd for him to ask, but absurd for NYG to consider paying that for a RB).
When you look at the inter-connectedness of those decisions vis-a-vis the leverage in play and the tag options, it's an interesting puzzle.
I like him but he isn’t lasting the season with anything close to a full load. He probably isn’t lasting the season in a 50/50 split. I’m completely fine moving on from Barkley but his production is not going to be easily replaced.
Save the franchise tag for positions with higher value/lower supply.
Here is all the proof you need not to move forward without SB:
Cincinnati: Mixon and S.Perine
Kansas City: Pacheco, Edwards-Helaire, McKinnon
Philly: Miles Sanders, Gainwell, Scott
49ers: They used a luxury investment in CMC, but they have a very diverse running game using Mitchell, Samuel, etc. And Shanahan is a savant developing a running game, like his dad.
But let's keep SB because he's a got added value by being a good guy, face of the franchise, sells jerseys, etc.
Save the franchise tag for positions with higher value/lower supply.
Here is all the proof you need not to move forward without SB:
Cincinnati: Mixon and S.Perine
Kansas City: Pacheco, Edwards-Helaire, McKinnon
Philly: Miles Sanders, Gainwell, Scott
49ers: They used a luxury investment in CMC, but they have a very diverse running game using Mitchell, Samuel, etc. And Shanahan is a savant developing a running game, like his dad.
But let's keep SB because he's a got added value by being a good guy, face of the franchise, sells jerseys, etc.
I hope Saquon asks for the moon and threatens to not play on the tag.
It takes Schoen off the hook and makes this easy decision a slam-dunk one.
I like him but he isn’t lasting the season with anything close to a full load. He probably isn’t lasting the season in a 50/50 split. I’m completely fine moving on from Barkley but his production is not going to be easily replaced.
How do you know that? Besides, he might start but he would split carries with Brightwell or a UFA or a pick.
Brightwell reminds me a bit of Marion Barber.... He runs angry.
The point is, by improving the line, you make the RBs look better, plus your make the passing game better. I think the combination should make up for any loss in production downgrading from Barkley to a lesser RB.
with $22 million guaranteed, consisting of $18 Million signing bonus and $4 million first year salary guaranteed.
That structure would be basically a 2 year contract (he could be cut after year 2 with a relatively minor amount of dead money).
So the cap hit would be:
Year 1: $4 million salary (guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $10 million cap hit.
Year 2: $7 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $13 million cap hit. If cut, $12 million dead money but $7 million savings.
Year 3: $13 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $19 million cap hit. If cut, only $6 million dead money but $13 million savings.
So getting all jacked up about a story that says Saquon wants $16m is just wasting time. The Giants can tag him twice I believe so this is what Saquon's future could hold and he and his agent know that if they are unresonable they could be staring at a year of $10.1m with no guarantees after that. So if you are Saquon's agent and the Giants come in at 3yr-$36m your job is then to try and get that figure higher, you cannot come in with some pie in the sky demand like 6yrs-$100m because the Giants will turn it down laughing and the agent knows that.
His agent also has to take into account the market and how badly does Saquon want to stay in NY. They have no leverage other than Saquon will be upset if tagged, but they also know the Giants know his character and how likely he is to become a distraction. All things point to a deal in the 3yr-$m40 range or maybe even a 4yr with a high salary in year 4 to make the deal look better on paper. That works for Saquon and it works for the Giants who don't want to have to sign another back and have many other needs to be addresed in the draft.
because there is a good chance they’ll need it for Jones.
Wouldn't tag Saquon either way
Yall really think he's gonna play 17 hard games on the tag. Dude will be stepping outta bounds, dancing and avoiding contact all year...which he should
RE: Sportac has the 2023 RB Franchise tag at $10.1M
So getting all jacked up about a story that says Saquon wants $16m is just wasting time. The Giants can tag him twice I believe so this is what Saquon's future could hold and he and his agent know that if they are unresonable they could be staring at a year of $10.1m with no guarantees after that. So if you are Saquon's agent and the Giants come in at 3yr-$36m your job is then to try and get that figure higher, you cannot come in with some pie in the sky demand like 6yrs-$100m because the Giants will turn it down laughing and the agent knows that.
His agent also has to take into account the market and how badly does Saquon want to stay in NY. They have no leverage other than Saquon will be upset if tagged, but they also know the Giants know his character and how likely he is to become a distraction. All things point to a deal in the 3yr-$m40 range or maybe even a 4yr with a high salary in year 4 to make the deal look better on paper. That works for Saquon and it works for the Giants who don't want to have to sign another back and have many other needs to be addresed in the draft.
Depends on how they feel about Jones. If they don't want to multi year offer Jones at this stage or are unable to come to an agreement with him then he's getting tagged and Saquon is gone.
with $22 million guaranteed, consisting of $18 Million signing bonus and $4 million first year salary guaranteed.
That structure would be basically a 2 year contract (he could be cut after year 2 with a relatively minor amount of dead money).
So the cap hit would be:
Year 1: $4 million salary (guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $10 million cap hit.
Year 2: $7 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $13 million cap hit. If cut, $12 million dead money but $7 million savings.
Year 3: $13 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $19 million cap hit. If cut, only $6 million dead money but $13 million savings.
My impression is the market on RB Contracts went thru a resetting recently, but still needs some more maturing.
The bountiful Free Agent RB supply posted above plus never-ending supply in college makes that a reality. Everybody likes Saquon but that shouldn't be the factor driving poor economic decisions when the laws of supply/demand make this so easy to invest differently.
Word is Giants offer is the 12M ballpark, Schoen volunteers they're not close, SB says he's not looking to reset the market, which is a nice soundbyte but reality is he very likely views himself at CMC's level.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
$16 million is a lot of cheddar for a finesse RB. That money could easily pay a whole pile of people.
IF we pay Jones and Barkley stupid money we basically have the same problems. A very thin bench, marginally startable roster and cap hell again. Who goes to give SB pay day? Williams, Love? Look at Green Bay-they are a sinking ship with that albatross
We haven’t discussed tagging and trading him more. He’s been a good Giant, one of the team captains. Just saying, the Giants may consider tagging him to a recoup a pick. Let him negotiate with a team that wants him.
Or they don’t tag and respectfully let him get his big deal elsewhere. Yes in this scenario the Giants “could have gotten compensation” but you just tip your hat and thank him for what he’s done. Sometimes the best decision is to do right, I also think this would go a long way with getting big time guys to be more interested in playing here.
I get its a business but this really is the offseason for him to cash in. Let him do so….elsewhere.
It's early though and his agent knows that the tag may be blocked by Jones. I imagine the demands come down if the Giants work something out with Jones freeing that up.
Jacobs is in a similar spot with the Raiders, so we should pay attention to how that plays out.
In a capable offense with other NFL caliber players he could put up the numbers to match that value. He's also pretty young and the counter argument to the injuries is the impact it's had on his carries (only 180 in '20 and '21 combined). I'm not necessarily saying you give him 16. If he's even asking for 16. It's Bleacher Report so it's not much different from a BBI post.
But what about finding an agreeable point between the tag and 16 (or whatever the price is) and giving him the chance to bump it up with incentives? I'd be fine with that. He's young, he's healthy, and just played a 19 game season. He's a locker room leader with all the intangibles. He's also been a stand up guy through the lean years. I feel you take care of guys like that. 16 million is CMC/Kamara/Elliot territory. He's absolutely in that company. It won't prohibit roster building. They're gonna have to do most of that through the draft anyway by the time they retain the core over the next 2 offseasons.
I would not pay Saquon $16 million per year
It seems that both parties are far apart according to media reports
He may find another team willing to pay him that amount but it won’t be the Giants.
RB list that I've seen in decades.
Tim - thanks for post. A ton of choices on that list that Giants should be fine teaming up with Brieda and a rookie pick from Rds 3 or 4.
Fortunately, this is an easy choice but will see if Schoen can play bad cop too.
People were talking about the "vibe" from Jones. If there is no deal forthcoming here, he will be tagged. So there is no question about Jones.
I thought the vibe from Barkley was that he was gone.
Kareem Hunt, Josh Jacobs, David Montgomery, Alexander Mattison, etc.
This is true. Of Sy's "top 96", for example, 12 are RBs, which is a lot. Close to 13%.
Find the future RB on day three of the 2023 draft. And/or grab a free agent RB that will fall through the cracks if you are patient. Many often do...
I really don't care about replacing RB production.
The money is better spent elsewhere (WR, TE, IOL, LB, DL, EDGE, CB), so many places... More impactful.
Get a top notch C, and Brieda will suffice.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
I love Saquon, but a high dollar commitment over four or five years makes little sense. I would either do a "tag, tender and trade" or let him walk and get the compensatory pick.
You only need 1.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
The tag is only in play if it isn't used on Jones...
If Jones is tagged, SB is walking.
Quote:
Can we find a way to pay him a lower salary, but guarantee more money over a longer contract that will likely never get met in terms of length?
That isn’t creative, that’s lowballing him. Why would Barkley agree to an incentive laden deal when he can walk into FA and get more guaranteed money? He’s not in prove it mode, he’s a top tier player at his position. The only way his price comes down is if we do a deal with Jones and free up the tag.
The crux of what the Giants face. If they want to play their best hand of cards on Barkley, they should accelerate the process of getting to an agreement with Jones.
I suspect that the Jones demands will be so high that they will need to use the tag there and be forced to simply let Barkley walk given those absurd demands (not absurd for him to ask, but absurd for NYG to consider paying that for a RB).
When you look at the inter-connectedness of those decisions vis-a-vis the leverage in play and the tag options, it's an interesting puzzle.
5 5 10 15 20
20 signing bonus 30 gtd
Cap 9 9 14 19 24
^This
Even if we have a deal for Jones in place without the tag... Do we really want a sulking RB, as a captain no less...
Incentives for 2 mill for DEEP playoff play AND availability ... among other things ,,,
Here is all the proof you need not to move forward without SB:
Cincinnati: Mixon and S.Perine
Kansas City: Pacheco, Edwards-Helaire, McKinnon
Philly: Miles Sanders, Gainwell, Scott
49ers: They used a luxury investment in CMC, but they have a very diverse running game using Mitchell, Samuel, etc. And Shanahan is a savant developing a running game, like his dad.
But let's keep SB because he's a got added value by being a good guy, face of the franchise, sells jerseys, etc.
Quote:
Save the franchise tag for positions with higher value/lower supply.
Here is all the proof you need not to move forward without SB:
Cincinnati: Mixon and S.Perine
Kansas City: Pacheco, Edwards-Helaire, McKinnon
Philly: Miles Sanders, Gainwell, Scott
49ers: They used a luxury investment in CMC, but they have a very diverse running game using Mitchell, Samuel, etc. And Shanahan is a savant developing a running game, like his dad.
But let's keep SB because he's a got added value by being a good guy, face of the franchise, sells jerseys, etc.
I hope Saquon asks for the moon and threatens to not play on the tag.
It takes Schoen off the hook and makes this easy decision a slam-dunk one.
How do you know that? Besides, he might start but he would split carries with Brightwell or a UFA or a pick.
Brightwell reminds me a bit of Marion Barber.... He runs angry.
The point is, by improving the line, you make the RBs look better, plus your make the passing game better. I think the combination should make up for any loss in production downgrading from Barkley to a lesser RB.
That structure would be basically a 2 year contract (he could be cut after year 2 with a relatively minor amount of dead money).
So the cap hit would be:
Year 1: $4 million salary (guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $10 million cap hit.
Year 2: $7 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $13 million cap hit. If cut, $12 million dead money but $7 million savings.
Year 3: $13 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $19 million cap hit. If cut, only $6 million dead money but $13 million savings.
His agent also has to take into account the market and how badly does Saquon want to stay in NY. They have no leverage other than Saquon will be upset if tagged, but they also know the Giants know his character and how likely he is to become a distraction. All things point to a deal in the 3yr-$m40 range or maybe even a 4yr with a high salary in year 4 to make the deal look better on paper. That works for Saquon and it works for the Giants who don't want to have to sign another back and have many other needs to be addresed in the draft.
Wouldn't tag Saquon either way
Yall really think he's gonna play 17 hard games on the tag. Dude will be stepping outta bounds, dancing and avoiding contact all year...which he should
His agent also has to take into account the market and how badly does Saquon want to stay in NY. They have no leverage other than Saquon will be upset if tagged, but they also know the Giants know his character and how likely he is to become a distraction. All things point to a deal in the 3yr-$m40 range or maybe even a 4yr with a high salary in year 4 to make the deal look better on paper. That works for Saquon and it works for the Giants who don't want to have to sign another back and have many other needs to be addresed in the draft.
Depends on how they feel about Jones. If they don't want to multi year offer Jones at this stage or are unable to come to an agreement with him then he's getting tagged and Saquon is gone.
That structure would be basically a 2 year contract (he could be cut after year 2 with a relatively minor amount of dead money).
So the cap hit would be:
Year 1: $4 million salary (guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $10 million cap hit.
Year 2: $7 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $13 million cap hit. If cut, $12 million dead money but $7 million savings.
Year 3: $13 million salary (not guaranteed), $6 million prorated bonus = $19 million cap hit. If cut, only $6 million dead money but $13 million savings.
My impression is the market on RB Contracts went thru a resetting recently, but still needs some more maturing.
The bountiful Free Agent RB supply posted above plus never-ending supply in college makes that a reality. Everybody likes Saquon but that shouldn't be the factor driving poor economic decisions when the laws of supply/demand make this so easy to invest differently.
I'd let him leave and go with Breida, Brightwell, Corbin, and maybe a draft pick.
If NYG's value for him is 12M, SB has a big decision to make, otherwise he's facing a tag and another year of no longterm security.
I also don't begrudge SB for trying to maximize his potential while he can. It's most likely his only chance at a big payday.
What kind of draft choice would the Giants get if they give Barkley a non-exclusive tag?
IF we pay Jones and Barkley stupid money we basically have the same problems. A very thin bench, marginally startable roster and cap hell again. Who goes to give SB pay day? Williams, Love? Look at Green Bay-they are a sinking ship with that albatross
Or they don’t tag and respectfully let him get his big deal elsewhere. Yes in this scenario the Giants “could have gotten compensation” but you just tip your hat and thank him for what he’s done. Sometimes the best decision is to do right, I also think this would go a long way with getting big time guys to be more interested in playing here.
I get its a business but this really is the offseason for him to cash in. Let him do so….elsewhere.
Quote:
someone will pay him that. I don't believe it will or should be the Giants.
I also don't begrudge SB for trying to maximize his potential while he can. It's most likely his only chance at a big payday.
What kind of draft choice would the Giants get if they give Barkley a non-exclusive tag?
Non-exclusive would be (2) 1sts. Nobody is signing him and giving up (2) 1sts.
This report is consistent with what Saquon said.
12,13 mil seems where they settle
Jacobs is in a similar spot with the Raiders, so we should pay attention to how that plays out.
But what about finding an agreeable point between the tag and 16 (or whatever the price is) and giving him the chance to bump it up with incentives? I'd be fine with that. He's young, he's healthy, and just played a 19 game season. He's a locker room leader with all the intangibles. He's also been a stand up guy through the lean years. I feel you take care of guys like that. 16 million is CMC/Kamara/Elliot territory. He's absolutely in that company. It won't prohibit roster building. They're gonna have to do most of that through the draft anyway by the time they retain the core over the next 2 offseasons.
Jacobs is in a similar spot with the Raiders, so we should pay attention to how that plays out.
I wouldn't pay Jacobs, either. But he probably has a better case to be paid than SB. He has been more productive, reliable and he's younger.
He's a north-south, once cut runner who doesn't waste a lot of time making a decision.
It seems that both parties are far apart according to media reports
He may find another team willing to pay him that amount but it won’t be the Giants.