when the Giants could run the ball they had a good enough offense. When they struggled in this area it was tough sledding. The two deficiencies surfaced. WR and OL.
Box scores paint the picture. Follow the carries, yards and YPA. Check the wins and losses. The vast majority play out to that.
We have the same LOS issue on the other side and in the wins the offense did a great job possessing the ball. That is what the running game does for you and it helped the D.
Philly went off schedule. Start with Seattle and go through the division. That is when the problems surfaced. 1-5-1 and even in those WFT games they too had the better fronts.
really dragged those rankings down. Middle of the year the Giants were actually ranked towards the middle. Then Neal got injured a bit, had a few real ugly games and the interior had some revolving doors with C and LG.
And if you follow Colin@GBN then the Giants are pretty much
this was a snippet around week 14 ranking the eagles with the #1 OL:
“There are no weak links on this line. Against the Giants, Mailata had arguably his worst game as a pass-blocker all season and still didn't allow a sack.”
And the Giants at #31:
“Neal coughed up eight total pressures against the Eagles for a PFF pass-blocking grade of 20.2 despite playing 52 of the 64 possible snaps.”
I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say we are basically the same OL at the Eagles.
RE: And if you follow Colin@GBN then the Giants are pretty much
Just after the middle of the year is when 5 division games were played. But it started with Seattle. Less about the injury and much more about scheme getting figured out a bit and better competition.
It’s why the started going to the quick passing attack starting with the second WFT game. They could run and used the pass to open it up.
Philly was just a bad matchup. Prepared and really good.
Well here are some of his OL quotes from a thread this week...
Johnny et al: One of my rules for analyzing sports is don't make judgments about a player or team based on one game. The sample size is just too small. The reality is that based on their stats for the season there actually wasn't a huge difference between the Eagles OL and ours. They gave up 44 sacks, we gave up 49; they averaged 4.6 YPC rushing; we averaged 4.8.
Quote:
I really wish people would disabuse themselves of this notion that the Eagles have a dominant OL. Sure they had a dominant game against the Giants on the weekend, but on the season they were very average allowing 44 sacks (just 5 fewer than the Giants) while they averaged 4.6 yards in the run game LESS than the Giants did (4.8).
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Good points. But again I try and avoid putting too much stock in just one game. I analyze seasons and I don't believe the numbers lie. That's why we collect numbers. And in the baseline numbers on the season as a whole there wasn't a ton of difference between the productivity of the two OLs.
this was a snippet around week 14 ranking the eagles with the #1 OL:
“There are no weak links on this line. Against the Giants, Mailata had arguably his worst game as a pass-blocker all season and still didn't allow a sack.”
And the Giants at #31:
“Neal coughed up eight total pressures against the Eagles for a PFF pass-blocking grade of 20.2 despite playing 52 of the 64 possible snaps.”
I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say we are basically the same OL at the Eagles.
With all due respect to those who I am about to comment on, anybody that thinks our OL is anywhere near the Eagles OL is a fuckin moron.
I don't know if he is a Giajnt homer but Colin indeed wrote them.
neal was one of the worst T in football. only 6 OTs allowed more than his 7 sacks than him and he missed a bunch of games. only 4 allowed more than his 7 penalties. he's a rookie and that doesn't mean he's a bust but that's reality. he was not good and the numbers would have been much worse if he played all the games and jones didnt escape with his legs a lot this year.
for the first 3/4 of the year glowinski and feliciano were also poor. both were among the top 10 at their positions in pressures allowed. they were better the last month of the year but they still allowed more sacks and pressures than they have in prior years.
in obviously limited action shane lemiuex and ezeudu had a lot of problems in pass pro.
thomas was a stud start to finish and glowinski, felciano, gates/bredeson improved the interior over the last 5-6 games but neal was still an obvious weak link and before that timeframe the OL was clearly not good. there is more work to do there but unfortunately there isnt much out there in FA.
times hurried, pass attempts under pressure, scrambling and then running etc all are a result of line play (unless the QB is holding the ball too long which advanced metrics account for). If his data is adding up sacks and dividing rushing yards by attempts than it’s worthless.
when your RT is top 5 in pressures/sacks allowed despite missing a bunch of games
and your RG is top 10 in pressures/sacks allowed
and your C is top 10 in pressures/sacks allowed
and 2 guys who combined to start a bunch of games at LG were actually even worse than those other 4 in pass pro
how is it logically possible for that line to rank well?
other than thomas the only positive is that things settled down in the IOL the last 5-6 games when gates/bredeson got back.
RE: And if you follow Colin@GBN then the Giants are pretty much
I Don’t think it’s a leap to expect that number to reach top 8 or so with noticeable improvements at OL and WR.
Jones and Barkley and the coaching should be applauded for getting the offense to respectability this season. Giants need to complement them. And they will.
I don’t think the offensive line was any better in pass protection than it was in 2021. The major difference statistically is Jones took off a lot more, and that cut down on the number of disaster plays (strip sacks and pulverizing sacks).
But just by the numbers Jones was getting pressured and sacked at the same alarming rate he’s been his whole career.
One thing that gets very little mention though with Jones that the world went gaga over with Manning, is the ability to help adjust the line calls and get out of bad plays pre-snap.
The only time I can recall Jones getting a compliment for changing a play was on a QB sneak.
At 6'7, 351 with all that natural ability, Neal needs to be coached differently than most other tackles. I remember the Eagles' 6'8", 330 Jon Runyan and his style.
He wasn't afraid to let guys get inside on him, he invited them. He would wrestle and punish them. He would elbow club them (Reggie white style), and pancake the when he could.
I see him playing "patty-cake" with guys a lot smaller than him (then them flying around him), it's a crying shame.
I remember Runyan against Strahan. He pissed me off because he would arm lock him and reach under the middle of of his shoulder pads. Michael would complain, but it didn't work because the refs couldn't see it.
This past Sunday, he knocked down the Eagles' Riddick. I was thinking, "great now jump on him". Instead, Riddick got up and sacked Jones.
That is sourced from a writer at PFF who does weekly rankings. It is not data. He does try to do some analysis with it, but mostly it's not much different than a writer on ESPN doing power rankings. It's worth slightly more than used toilet paper.
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
That is sourced from a writer at PFF who does weekly rankings. It is not data. He does try to do some analysis with it, but mostly it's not much different than a writer on ESPN doing power rankings. It's worth slightly more than used toilet paper.
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
Are you saying that those rankings are not based off of their grades that they derive from evaluating every snap?
RE: And if you follow Colin@GBN then the Giants are pretty much
average on the OL and comparable with the Eagles OL.
So not sure how that adds up to #30.
I haven't read what Colin has said on this, but the ideas that our OL is comparable to the Eagles is laughable. 30 is not a surprise. The offense was functional because of great scheme and great QB play. And it was still not very functional against really good defensive fronts. Wouldn't be surprised by mid to high 20s either. But average and comparable to the Eagles? Not close.
The OL was (once again) very, very questionable. The inside of the Line is quite brutal and while I do think Neal will improve over time; he has to improve quickly and stay healthy. He can't join Ojulari on the constantly injured list.
The scheme was a big part of it but I do think personnel was also better. Bellinger showed pretty well as a blocker and Neal was a big upgrade in this area over last years group. AT was healthy for the most part. Last year he was hurt and when he came back he had a hard time getting push. The interior while still not near good enough was better that what they had last year after Gates and SL went down game two.
Then perhaps the biggest part SB was much better this year.
But the overall improvement of the OL was not nearly enough and most improvement was in the run game.
Did any of you watch the Giants this year and last year?
The OL was much better this year than last year. I highly doubt every other teams OL improved as much or more.
The OL was trash. What you perceive to be better OL play was simply better offensive scheming.
Yes and yes. This is the answer. The O was built to get the ball out of DJ hands quickly and to most likely the first read. That’s because you had no time to get to the 2nd and forget the 3rd read.
This is exactly what the Eagles knew. Take away first read and let the line get to Jones. Nobody on the Giants scared them long and their O line wouldn’t hold up that long anyway against the Eagles pass rush.
The line was shit. All year. Needs to get better. Skill positions need a massive upgrade as well. A lot of work still left to do.
That is sourced from a writer at PFF who does weekly rankings. It is not data. He does try to do some analysis with it, but mostly it's not much different than a writer on ESPN doing power rankings. It's worth slightly more than used toilet paper.
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
It’s a writers rankings from best to worst but he’s clearly using PFF data in his write-ups. There’s definitely some subjectivity to it but it’s still rooted in their data by what I’ve read.
Let’s say it isn’t 30, how’s 25? How far off is 25 from 30 in reality? And how close is that to 1, which apparently someone thinks is not only possible but probable?
If there wasn't a ton of difference between the Giants and Eagles OLs
They tried, with Neal, Glowinski, Feliciano, and Ezeudu, and they all underperformed.
Are you a troll or do you really not understand that Neal and Ezeudu were rookies (who often struggle) and that Feliciano was a stopgap FA picked from the bargain bin because we had negative cap money? Do you really not understand that?
I admit Glowinski wasn't a great signing it seems, but he had been a starter for other teams and great OL usually don't become FAs.
Schoen inherited an OL with ONE legit starter (and no cap money to address it). It's still very possible that Neal and Ezeudu will become solid starters with more coaching and experience.
I don't understand you and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Suggests that the line was not as bad as prior years. I would have thought that they were low 20s.
However, the Giants were clearly coached for a short/quick passing game.
Jones executed this scheme, and did the 1 read, 2 read, run effectively. Sometimes it was 1 read and run...
So I will admit, that perhaps the scheme covered some of the deficiencies. However, at least DJ wasn't getting pounded from the blind side.
In the long run, this goes to show that those who say that we have invested enough in the OL, don't know what they are talking about. Until the line is good, you have not invested enough!
to anyone who thinks nyg ol was average or better this year
Thomas/Matt Skura/Billy Price/Will Hernandez/Nate Solder is laughable.
at the end of the year the line had improved with gates/bredeson back and when glowinski/felciano settled down and stopped allowing sacks. I think those 2 combined for something like 0 sacks in the last month.
however statistically the non-Thomas components of the line weren't too far from each other because of the performance in the first 2/3 of the year.
That middle part of the season the OL was pretty bad, with the injuries to Neal, Bredeson, and don't discount the injury to Bellinger, either. He's the best run-blocking TE on the Giants, and his loss also really impacted the running game.
Quote:
Hopefully they can do something about it .
They tried, with Neal, Glowinski, Feliciano, and Ezeudu, and they all underperformed.
Box scores paint the picture. Follow the carries, yards and YPA. Check the wins and losses. The vast majority play out to that.
We have the same LOS issue on the other side and in the wins the offense did a great job possessing the ball. That is what the running game does for you and it helped the D.
Philly went off schedule. Start with Seattle and go through the division. That is when the problems surfaced. 1-5-1 and even in those WFT games they too had the better fronts.
So not sure how that adds up to #30.
“There are no weak links on this line. Against the Giants, Mailata had arguably his worst game as a pass-blocker all season and still didn't allow a sack.”
And the Giants at #31:
“Neal coughed up eight total pressures against the Eagles for a PFF pass-blocking grade of 20.2 despite playing 52 of the 64 possible snaps.”
I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say we are basically the same OL at the Eagles.
So not sure how that adds up to #30.
Colin@GBN doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.
It’s why the started going to the quick passing attack starting with the second WFT game. They could run and used the pass to open it up.
Philly was just a bad matchup. Prepared and really good.
Quote:
In comment 16012768 Blue21 said:
Quote:
Hopefully they can do something about it .
They tried, with Neal, Glowinski, Feliciano, and Ezeudu, and they all underperformed.
rookie cheap stop gap cheap stop gap rookie sounds about right
I wouldn't call Glowinski cheap
“There are no weak links on this line. Against the Giants, Mailata had arguably his worst game as a pass-blocker all season and still didn't allow a sack.”
And the Giants at #31:
“Neal coughed up eight total pressures against the Eagles for a PFF pass-blocking grade of 20.2 despite playing 52 of the 64 possible snaps.”
I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say we are basically the same OL at the Eagles.
With all due respect to those who I am about to comment on, anybody that thinks our OL is anywhere near the Eagles OL is a fuckin moron.
Philly doesn't have a dominate line, they are average. And comparable in productivity to the Giants.
Philly doesn't have a dominate line, they are average. And comparable in productivity to the Giants.
The Eagles OL was banged up this year. They are still one of the best in the NFL.
Quote:
And he backed up his position that NYG and Phil lines have comparable productivity figures with those noted stats.
Philly doesn't have a dominate line, they are average. And comparable in productivity to the Giants.
The Eagles OL was banged up this year. They are still one of the best in the NFL.
Of course, without question.
for the first 3/4 of the year glowinski and feliciano were also poor. both were among the top 10 at their positions in pressures allowed. they were better the last month of the year but they still allowed more sacks and pressures than they have in prior years.
in obviously limited action shane lemiuex and ezeudu had a lot of problems in pass pro.
thomas was a stud start to finish and glowinski, felciano, gates/bredeson improved the interior over the last 5-6 games but neal was still an obvious weak link and before that timeframe the OL was clearly not good. there is more work to do there but unfortunately there isnt much out there in FA.
and your RG is top 10 in pressures/sacks allowed
and your C is top 10 in pressures/sacks allowed
and 2 guys who combined to start a bunch of games at LG were actually even worse than those other 4 in pass pro
how is it logically possible for that line to rank well?
other than thomas the only positive is that things settled down in the IOL the last 5-6 games when gates/bredeson got back.
So not sure how that adds up to #30.
Where did he say that??
If so, we may have to stop posting his college draft rankings... ;)
I Don’t think it’s a leap to expect that number to reach top 8 or so with noticeable improvements at OL and WR.
Jones and Barkley and the coaching should be applauded for getting the offense to respectability this season. Giants need to complement them. And they will.
But just by the numbers Jones was getting pressured and sacked at the same alarming rate he’s been his whole career.
One thing that gets very little mention though with Jones that the world went gaga over with Manning, is the ability to help adjust the line calls and get out of bad plays pre-snap.
The only time I can recall Jones getting a compliment for changing a play was on a QB sneak.
evan neal rookie year (453 pass block snaps) - 7 sacks, 7 penalties, 39 pressures
andrew thomas rookie year (615 pass block snaps) - 10 sacks, 3 penalties, 57 pressures
maybe we give him a year or two at the same spot and see how things go? like thomas he was playing through some injuries.
At 6'7, 351 with all that natural ability, Neal needs to be coached differently than most other tackles. I remember the Eagles' 6'8", 330 Jon Runyan and his style.
He wasn't afraid to let guys get inside on him, he invited them. He would wrestle and punish them. He would elbow club them (Reggie white style), and pancake the when he could.
I see him playing "patty-cake" with guys a lot smaller than him (then them flying around him), it's a crying shame.
I remember Runyan against Strahan. He pissed me off because he would arm lock him and reach under the middle of of his shoulder pads. Michael would complain, but it didn't work because the refs couldn't see it.
This past Sunday, he knocked down the Eagles' Riddick. I was thinking, "great now jump on him". Instead, Riddick got up and sacked Jones.
Here's some old-time Runyan highlights ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrBn2v1s-ZQ
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
Are you saying that those rankings are not based off of their grades that they derive from evaluating every snap?
So not sure how that adds up to #30.
I haven't read what Colin has said on this, but the ideas that our OL is comparable to the Eagles is laughable. 30 is not a surprise. The offense was functional because of great scheme and great QB play. And it was still not very functional against really good defensive fronts. Wouldn't be surprised by mid to high 20s either. But average and comparable to the Eagles? Not close.
The OL was much better this year than last year. I highly doubt every other teams OL improved as much or more.
The OL was much better this year than last year. I highly doubt every other teams OL improved as much or more.
The OL was trash. What you perceive to be better OL play was simply better offensive scheming.
Then perhaps the biggest part SB was much better this year.
But the overall improvement of the OL was not nearly enough and most improvement was in the run game.
Quote:
Did any of you watch the Giants this year and last year?
The OL was much better this year than last year. I highly doubt every other teams OL improved as much or more.
The OL was trash. What you perceive to be better OL play was simply better offensive scheming.
Yes and yes. This is the answer. The O was built to get the ball out of DJ hands quickly and to most likely the first read. That’s because you had no time to get to the 2nd and forget the 3rd read.
This is exactly what the Eagles knew. Take away first read and let the line get to Jones. Nobody on the Giants scared them long and their O line wouldn’t hold up that long anyway against the Eagles pass rush.
The line was shit. All year. Needs to get better. Skill positions need a massive upgrade as well. A lot of work still left to do.
There are other metrics out there that are more informative. Not saying that the line was good this year, but it definitely wasn't 30th bad.
I know it's PFF, but in this case it's just opinion journalism.
It’s a writers rankings from best to worst but he’s clearly using PFF data in his write-ups. There’s definitely some subjectivity to it but it’s still rooted in their data by what I’ve read.
Let’s say it isn’t 30, how’s 25? How far off is 25 from 30 in reality? And how close is that to 1, which apparently someone thinks is not only possible but probable?
Focus on WRs.
Quote:
Hopefully they can do something about it .
They tried, with Neal, Glowinski, Feliciano, and Ezeudu, and they all underperformed.
Are you a troll or do you really not understand that Neal and Ezeudu were rookies (who often struggle) and that Feliciano was a stopgap FA picked from the bargain bin because we had negative cap money? Do you really not understand that?
I admit Glowinski wasn't a great signing it seems, but he had been a starter for other teams and great OL usually don't become FAs.
Schoen inherited an OL with ONE legit starter (and no cap money to address it). It's still very possible that Neal and Ezeudu will become solid starters with more coaching and experience.
I don't understand you and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Did you miss the part where he strained his MCL (i.e. a "physical limitation")?
He was actually starting to play a little better before he got injured and missed 4 games (5 weeks).
Quote:
And showed no improvement over the course of the year. That tells me he has physical limitations. He needs to move to guard. Draft another tackle.
Did you miss the part where he strained his MCL (i.e. a "physical limitation")?
He was actually starting to play a little better before he got injured and missed 4 games (5 weeks).
Neal did not miss time, he played through
However, the Giants were clearly coached for a short/quick passing game.
Jones executed this scheme, and did the 1 read, 2 read, run effectively. Sometimes it was 1 read and run...
So I will admit, that perhaps the scheme covered some of the deficiencies. However, at least DJ wasn't getting pounded from the blind side.
In the long run, this goes to show that those who say that we have invested enough in the OL, don't know what they are talking about. Until the line is good, you have not invested enough!
Thomas/Gates(Bredeson)/Feliciano/Glowinski/Neal
is just as bad as
Thomas/Matt Skura/Billy Price/Will Hernandez/Nate Solder is laughable.
Quote:
In comment 16012985 kelly said:
Quote:
And showed no improvement over the course of the year. That tells me he has physical limitations. He needs to move to guard. Draft another tackle.
Did you miss the part where he strained his MCL (i.e. a "physical limitation")?
He was actually starting to play a little better before he got injured and missed 4 games (5 weeks).
Neal did not miss time, he played through
What in the actual fuck are you talking about?!?
Link - ( New Window )
Thomas/Gates(Bredeson)/Feliciano/Glowinski/Neal
is just as bad as
Thomas/Matt Skura/Billy Price/Will Hernandez/Nate Solder is laughable.
at the end of the year the line had improved with gates/bredeson back and when glowinski/felciano settled down and stopped allowing sacks. I think those 2 combined for something like 0 sacks in the last month.
however statistically the non-Thomas components of the line weren't too far from each other because of the performance in the first 2/3 of the year.
Neal 22 (453 pass block snaps) = 7 sacks, 7 penalties, 39 hurries
Solder 21 (586 pass block snaps) = 6 sacks, 6 penalties, 36 hurries
feliciano 22 (568 pass block snaps) = 3 sacks, 6 penalties, 22 pressures
price 21 (649 pass block snaps) = 2 sacks, 5 penalties, 24 pressures
glowinski 22 (614 pass block snaps) = 5 sacks, 3 penalties, 34 pressures
hernandez 21 (676 pass block snaps) = 7 sacks, 8 penalties, 36 pressures
ezeudu 22 (153 pass block snaps) = 3 sacks, 3 penalties, 15 pressures
lemieux 22 (24 pass block snaps) = 1 sack, 5 pressures
gates 22 (229 pass block snaps) = 1 sack, 4 penalties, 10 pressures
bredeson 22 (332 pass block snaps) = 0 sacks, 3 penalties, 11 pressures
skura 21 (473 pass block snaps) = 2 sacks, 3 penalties, 32 pressures
so in total that was 5 sacks and 41 pressures from LG.
and remember the 2021 line was also playing from behind more.
Quote:
In comment 16012985 kelly said:
Quote:
And showed no improvement over the course of the year. That tells me he has physical limitations. He needs to move to guard. Draft another tackle.
Did you miss the part where he strained his MCL (i.e. a "physical limitation")?
He was actually starting to play a little better before he got injured and missed 4 games (5 weeks).
Neal did not miss time, he played through
He missed weeks 8 through 12 (9 being the bye). He missed the last week of Oct and all of Nov.