The Perilous Journey to Find Jones Weapons

I would rather spend money on our roster

By that I mean both were injured and had question marks on there health but you know who was so desperate they looked right past the negative and crossed their fingers for the positive. Didn't work. Failed badly.

The “weapons” argument is a bunch of b********t. Jones needs a better team around him. A very solid D this season allowed the offense to play a low risk style. A better OL will help Jones… and the Defense.

Sure, we should work on improving the receiving corps, along with every other part of the team.

In comment 16013173 cosmicj said:

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The “weapons” argument is a bunch of b********t. Jones needs a better team around him. A very solid D this season allowed the offense to play a low risk style. A better OL will help Jones… and the Defense. Sure, we should work on improving the receiving corps, along with every other part of the team.

I agree with this. Jones has shown the ability to work with scraps. I’m not saying that we need to have scraps at WR, but prioritizing them over OL and the defense might not be the best way to build the team.

If you subscribe to the theory the Giants had the worst receivers on the planet (I don't) -- there's an argument a couple of mid-range free agent signings will markedly improve the group.

Maybe a couple of dudes like Parris Campbell and Jakobi Meyers do the trick?

In comment 16013173 cosmicj said:

Quote:

The “weapons” argument is a bunch of b********t. Jones needs a better team around him. A very solid D this season allowed the offense to play a low risk style. A better OL will help Jones… and the Defense. Sure, we should work on improving the receiving corps, along with every other part of the team.

It’s not bullshit. We also need a better team but a major piece of that puzzle is upgrading at WR. We can certainly make it to the playoffs again without one, but we aren’t going deep unless we have something downfield that can change a game.

Absolutely no one is saying only fix the WRs and ignore the OL.

In comment 16013193 christian said:

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If you subscribe to the theory the Giants had the worst receivers on the planet (I don't) -- there's an argument a couple of mid-range free agent signings will markedly improve the group. Maybe a couple of dudes like Parris Campbell and Jakobi Meyers do the trick?

In the NFL you can’t name name more than 1 or 2 teams in the same shape we are at WR/TE. You can maybe find 2 or 3 that are comparable, but not worse.

IMO we should be drafting WR as high as we can (assuming value is there) and bring in a couple mid level FAs.

and give him way too much money.

judge was the man behind the toney pick.

not sure about golladay. maybe that was the combined forces of judge, nephew timm, and gettleman..

at least two of those three are out of the building now.

Is paramount.

Good, or better, wide outs are just too expensive in free agency and any lower cost players are either not good enough or damaged goods.

A superior WR that can stretch the field on a low cost rookie deal is ideal.

At least one receiver day one or two in April is essential.

In comment 16013194 UConn4523 said:

It’s not bullshit. We also need a better team but a major piece of that puzzle is upgrading at WR. We can certainly make it to the playoffs again without one, but we aren’t going deep unless we have something downfield that can change a game.

Absolutely no one is saying only fix the WRs and ignore the OL. [/quote]

Agreed, part of the reason Philly is dominant is because they're not deficient anywhere. Sure they have some of the best in the game, in certain positions, but their great strength is derived from having no chinks in the armor.

WR/weapons help the OL, and OL helps the weapons. This works everywhere throughout the roster.

just more talented receiving options for Jones. I think if we cluster drafted WR/TE/RB we would widen the pool for talent. If we just focus on finding a #1 WR we may not find one at #25.

Look for guys like Jerrick Mckinnon or Dalton Schultz in the draft. I also think that guys like Cager will be utilized more once they spend the offseason / camp with team. It's fun to think about what this Coach and GM can do now that they have money to make moves.

Even Schoen might have been doing some of that with drafting of Robinson fairly early. To his defense though, he may have just assumed at that point that Toney wasn't going to stick and needed a hedge.

In comment 16013202 japanhead said:

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and give him way too much money. judge was the man behind the toney pick. not sure about golladay. maybe that was the combined forces of judge, nephew timm, and gettleman.. at least two of those three are out of the building now.

McDonnell knew Rudolph when Rudolph played at Notre Dame. He was washed up when the Giants signed him.

Run heavy?
Pass heavy?

There are so many questions as to what this team will look like.

I think JS and BD have a better team searching for talent than in years past. I’m assuming more PS or UDFA who can produce are coming our way.

Giants however as a team do indeed so need them. It’s how you win games in todays NFL with gamebreaming or dominating talent in spots that allow you more flexibility in scheming attacking game plans and adjusting.

People are in for a rude awakening next year if they think we are suddenly going to win more games in our division and at least stay course overall record wise without changing the current playmaking pool and roster composition.

Almost everything went well for us this year. We are not far (even without injuries) from slipping a struggle here or there back to a 6 win team.

In comment 16013266 Sammo85 said:

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Giants however as a team do indeed so need them. It’s how you win games in todays NFL with gamebreaming or dominating talent in spots that allow you more flexibility in scheming attacking game plans and adjusting. People are in for a rude awakening next year if they think we are suddenly going to win more games in our division and at least stay course overall record wise without changing the current playmaking pool and roster composition. Almost everything went well for us this year. We are not far (even without injuries) from slipping a struggle here or there back to a 6 win team.

The do need more weapons, but the focus shouldn't specifically be on next year. Two more offseasons is probably a realistic timeline to build the deficient areas of this roster without overpaying either on the cap, with draft picks, or both.

I'm not worried so much about next year. The Giants aren't one year away from anything.

In comment 16013272 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 16013266 Sammo85 said: Quote: Giants however as a team do indeed so need them. It’s how you win games in todays NFL with gamebreaming or dominating talent in spots that allow you more flexibility in scheming attacking game plans and adjusting. People are in for a rude awakening next year if they think we are suddenly going to win more games in our division and at least stay course overall record wise without changing the current playmaking pool and roster composition. Almost everything went well for us this year. We are not far (even without injuries) from slipping a struggle here or there back to a 6 win team. The do need more weapons, but the focus shouldn't specifically be on next year. Two more offseasons is probably a realistic timeline to build the deficient areas of this roster without overpaying either on the cap, with draft picks, or both. I'm not worried so much about next year. The Giants aren't one year away from anything.

I’m absolutely on that wavelength with you and the assessment of roster needs. I’ve long felt 2024 was season where expectations to sustainable contention are to be met into 2025 and 2026.

And as we know things can change on whim each year that reorients things.

and look where it is leading them to.
KC is an exception due to having the #1 QB and future HOF on their roster.

The top offenses (Min, Miami, and those listed above) all have deep and high end receivers. It's not just a "Jones issue," it is how the modern game is played. Having receivers that take short-medium passes for 20+ yards helps to open up the field for the rest of the team. Imagine what having someone with Tyreke Hill's speed might do for DJ's running, as well as the other underneath routes that Bellinger, Shep, or James might run.

If they want to take the next step in growing the team's success, Schoen and his team will need to deliver in this area.

improve it. Maybe someone with Slayton's speed and good hands.

In comment 16013193 christian said:

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If you subscribe to the theory the Giants had the worst receivers on the planet (I don't) -- there's an argument a couple of mid-range free agent signings will markedly improve the group.

That's such a fatuous premise, christian, as is comparing what JJ, Gettleman, and the rest did with Schoen's likely approach in your OP. You're better than this.

But we should never set an offseason priority of “providing weapons.” It’s a fundamentally flawed approach.

QBs also benefit from OL play and a defense that can stop the opponents from scoring.

I am of the belief we need to almost exclusively use high draft picks or trades of those picks to fill the most expensive positions on the team and use FA and lower draft picks to fill the less expensive positions with one caveat....if there is an outlier talent at one of the less expensive positions found in the draft...take him. Not rocket science or overly controversial. In no particular order draft WR's, CB's, Edge, QB's, OT's and DT's and then use FA or late draft picks to sign your RB's, TE, IOL and ILB. According to Sy, Joe Schoen had a magnificent first draft this year even though I count 4 rooks lost for the year. If we really have 11 picks this year like I read somewhere, I am pumped to get to the summer and training camp to see them shine. Dabs was amazing this year but Schoen was off the charts keeping this team alive with all the rookies and practice squad additions.

This is definitely a multi-year rebuild from here to get to where we want...contending. Just too many holes and lack of depth to think 1 surprisingly successful tear down year this year plus one more offseason to come will get it all done. And Neal needs to get right and make progress this offseason or else we are back in the draft again 15 months from now looking for our future RT

It would have been fine to say we shouldn't prioritize one position over the other 10 years ago. But the rules favor great receivers in contested situations. So many of the great QBs throw quite a bit of passes up for grabs and rely on the WR to make plays. The remaining teams all have a top receiver or TE.

If the NFL schemes and changes rules to favor explosive plays, you can't skimp on the main ingredient. Are teams overpaying and reaching for WRs because they dumb? Pick at least one WR early.

No matter where your thoughts are on last year’s group are, it’s mostly moot.

The only WRs under team control in 2023 are Golladay, Hodgins, Robinson, and Collin Johnson.

Assuming Golladay is cut and Johnson and Robinson will be less than 100% come the off season program time — the Giants have one healthy WR on the roster today.

The Giants not only should make a lot of moves, they literally have to.

In comment 16013377 cosmicj said:

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But we should never set an offseason priority of “providing weapons.” It’s a fundamentally flawed approach. QBs also benefit from OL play and a defense that can stop the opponents from scoring.

Great post. This is the stuff that has gotten this franchise in a mess.

In comment 16013437 Sean said:

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In comment 16013377 cosmicj said: Quote: But we should never set an offseason priority of “providing weapons.” It’s a fundamentally flawed approach. QBs also benefit from OL play and a defense that can stop the opponents from scoring. Great post. This is the stuff that has gotten this franchise in a mess.

I agree. Despite a nice season, you can throw a dart at the board and find a player that fits a need.

From a team building perspective, it’s just bananas to me how badly this team has built the WR group.

and Interior OL group.

In comment 16013193 christian said:

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If you subscribe to the theory the Giants had the worst receivers on the planet (I don't) -- there's an argument a couple of mid-range free agent signings will markedly improve the group. Maybe a couple of dudes like Parris Campbell and Jakobi Meyers do the trick?

Define mid range. Meyers is arguably the best WR available, I would love him as a Giant. I suspect Schoen would too. Put up 800 yards and 6 TD’s in that inept NE offense. Rarely hurt. He’s probably out of our price range given how week the market is. Campbell may be more likely.

You will sit and watch any receiver with potential fly off the board before our next pick. Not the case with those positions.

Yes there shouldn't be a massive reach. But between FA and the draft, there needs to be an emphasis on WR and a strategy to get weapons.

We all admire the way the team that just thrashed us was put together. Did they kit trade up for Smith and trade for Brown? Did their QB play just a bit better with those two?

Sorry!

In comment 16013377 cosmicj said:

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But we should never set an offseason priority of “providing weapons.” It’s a fundamentally flawed approach. QBs also benefit from OL play and a defense that can stop the opponents from scoring.

Yep, find the best players who fit what you're doing. Build a team, rather than collect talent, to quote Schoen.

Fans' goals tend to be winning and the immediate season at hand. But, not the same perspective for those building the team as a sustainable.

In comment 16013458 Kanavis said:

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You will sit and watch any receiver with potential fly off the board before our next pick. Not the case with those positions. Yes there shouldn't be a massive reach. But between FA and the draft, there needs to be an emphasis on WR and a strategy to get weapons.

Picking this late in Draft, might not be a bad year for a drop down to beginning of Rd 2 and pick up an extra Day 2 pick. We already have two 3rd round picks I think, so this move would give 5 picks in the first 3 rounds.

And then put 2 WRs on this roster from Rd 2.

Eagles: Brown, Smith, Watson
Cowboys: Lamb, Gallup, Brown
Commies: McLaurin, Dotson, Samuels
Giants: Slayton, Hodgins, James (Robinson)

It's difficult to see how Giants compete to win the division without an upgrade at WR. The team has a lot of needs but this is one of them that can be addressed via the draft. McClaurin was a 3rd round pick, fwiw.

4 year starter in college and in the pros and despite loads of different "weapons", including several 1st rounders and o-linemen, somehow he has never, ever had a "weapon" or an o-line, the poor dear. Maybe it's time to consider other possibilities.

and the worst OL.

about Robinson in discussing his rookie class.

In comment 16013285 Sammo85 said:

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In comment 16013272 rsjem1979 said: Quote: In comment 16013266 Sammo85 said: Quote: Giants however as a team do indeed so need them. It’s how you win games in todays NFL with gamebreaming or dominating talent in spots that allow you more flexibility in scheming attacking game plans and adjusting. People are in for a rude awakening next year if they think we are suddenly going to win more games in our division and at least stay course overall record wise without changing the current playmaking pool and roster composition. Almost everything went well for us this year. We are not far (even without injuries) from slipping a struggle here or there back to a 6 win team. The do need more weapons, but the focus shouldn't specifically be on next year. Two more offseasons is probably a realistic timeline to build the deficient areas of this roster without overpaying either on the cap, with draft picks, or both. I'm not worried so much about next year. The Giants aren't one year away from anything. I’m absolutely on that wavelength with you and the assessment of roster needs. I’ve long felt 2024 was season where expectations to sustainable contention are to be met into 2025 and 2026. And as we know things can change on whim each year that reorients things.

This. If u told me over first 4 rds we drafted an ILB, DE, DT and two olinemen I would be thrilled. What’s , no cbs or wrs? Nope. Couple mid tier FA and hope guys like wandale, shep and Collin Johnson can contribute on offense and Arob comes back healthy along with Flott improving. Not ideal but LOS looks set long term. Rd 5-7 take some flyers on db, TE and WR.

Go big after wr and cb in 2024.

In comment 16013467 Kanavis said:

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We all admire the way the team that just thrashed us was put together. Did they kit trade up for Smith and trade for Brown? Did their QB play just a bit better with those two?

Yeah, they did those two things.

You know how they did it? They acquired a 1st and 3rd round pick for Carson Wentz.

The 3rd was used to trade up for Smith. The 1st was later swapped with New Orleans with another 1st for the Saints 1st in 2023, and a 2024 2nd rounder. They used another 1st round pick to trade for Brown. They are still flush with draft picks, as they hold the #10 pick (from NO) as well as their own first rounder.

And their QB is playing on a 2nd round rookie contract.

None of those situations apply to the Giants. So yeah it would be extremely beneficial to acquire better WRs, the question is how do they do it while also addressing other areas of need, of which there are many?

You want the Giants to catch up to the Eagles? Start thinking in 2-3 year increments instead of what can be done for 2023, because there's no chance you can make up that gap in one offseason.

In comment 16013544 HomerJones45 said:

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4 year starter in college and in the pros and despite loads of different "weapons", including several 1st rounders and o-linemen, somehow he has never, ever had a "weapon" or an o-line, the poor dear. Maybe it's time to consider other possibilities.

While anything is possible you don’t find the loss of 3 WRs to injury and trades and our supposed #1 WR stuck on the bench as a wee bit more of an issue? Have you looked around the league at how WR loss has impacted other QBs including some of the premier players? You can be down on Jones and still be critical in any other areas.

The Giants took a big swing at upping the pass catching talent in 2021 and it was massive miss.

Fast-forward to 2022 and health permitting my guess is the initial starters would have been Shepard, Robinson, C. Johnson.

You can't discount the interruption of losing the best three receivers on the roster to injuries.

Over middling DL and OL. I still subscribe to old GM, George Young's observation about rare dancing elephants on earth. They make middling QB and WR look better.

They all have multiples of very good weapons - we don’t. The entire team needs another several off seasons of build before we are even close.