NFT: Knicks @ Celtics 7:30 game thread.

Just when it seems like they're maybe dead, they pull this shit.

Difficult for teams the rest of the year

Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st

Brunson rj og Randle Mitch
Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims

Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward

The rotations were much better. Holy shit, Randle came out at the end of the first and didn't come back until late in the 2nd. He actually let the 2nd group play a lot and even against Boston's starters. The 2nd unit was phenomenal.

With that said and as good as Randle has been this year, he was pathetic on D last night in the 4th. He was lackadaisical getting on Tatum. Tatum just kept blowing by him. Thibs watched the starters lose a double digit lead in the 4th. The game never should have went to overtime. Every time Tatum was matched up on Randle it was an easy drive to the basket. I kept yelling to change it up. Put either RJ or Grimes on him. Grimes finally got on him like in the last possession in the 4th and helped us get to OT. That was the difference right there.

It is mind bottling (yes, reference to Chazz Michael Michaels) that Thibs is a defensive guy and our defense is so fuckin poor. He has one way of doing things. Look at Wink. All you hear from coaches is how Wink mixes shit up from game to game. Thibs does the same thing every year. We constantly collapse on D and leave wide open 3s. That was a huge reason for us blowing the lead in the 4th.

It was a great win. I didn't think we were going to pull that out. Hopefully this starts a winning streak for us. But we still need to see Thibs adjust to the current NBA.

In comment 16015650 Knickstape said:

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Difficult for teams the rest of the year Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st Brunson rj og Randle Mitch Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward

yup 100% and OG can play the 2, 3 or 4, so he you can have a lineup to start the second and 4th quarters with Quickley, Mcbride, Grimes, OG, Sims or Hart..

The defense with that group would be amazing to watch..

In comment 16015659 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 16015650 Knickstape said: Quote: Difficult for teams the rest of the year Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st Brunson rj og Randle Mitch Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward yup 100% and OG can play the 2, 3 or 4, so he you can have a lineup to start the second and 4th quarters with Quickley, Mcbride, Grimes, OG, Sims or Hart.. The defense with that group would be amazing to watch..

The problem is OG is going to cost a ton. So what are we willing to give up? Someone mentioned earlier Obi and two firsts. That’s not close to what it would take. After adding OG, those picks lose value. Toronto isn’t trading him for Obi and a couple of late 20’s picks. And we all know Leon isn’t comfortable giving up too many of his precious assets that he’s worked so hard to acquire…

In comment 16015664 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 16015659 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015650 Knickstape said: Quote: Difficult for teams the rest of the year Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st Brunson rj og Randle Mitch Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward yup 100% and OG can play the 2, 3 or 4, so he you can have a lineup to start the second and 4th quarters with Quickley, Mcbride, Grimes, OG, Sims or Hart.. The defense with that group would be amazing to watch.. The problem is OG is going to cost a ton. So what are we willing to give up? Someone mentioned earlier Obi and two firsts. That’s not close to what it would take. After adding OG, those picks lose value. Toronto isn’t trading him for Obi and a couple of late 20’s picks. And we all know Leon isn’t comfortable giving up too many of his precious assets that he’s worked so hard to acquire…

My guess a final deal would end up being Obi, Cam and Rose plus an unprotected and 2 protected for OG and cap filler..

who do they think they are trading? haha

In comment 16015666 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 16015664 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 16015659 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015650 Knickstape said: Quote: Difficult for teams the rest of the year Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st Brunson rj og Randle Mitch Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward yup 100% and OG can play the 2, 3 or 4, so he you can have a lineup to start the second and 4th quarters with Quickley, Mcbride, Grimes, OG, Sims or Hart.. The defense with that group would be amazing to watch.. The problem is OG is going to cost a ton. So what are we willing to give up? Someone mentioned earlier Obi and two firsts. That’s not close to what it would take. After adding OG, those picks lose value. Toronto isn’t trading him for Obi and a couple of late 20’s picks. And we all know Leon isn’t comfortable giving up too many of his precious assets that he’s worked so hard to acquire… My guess a final deal would end up being Obi, Cam and Rose plus an unprotected and 2 protected for OG and cap filler..

You’re probably close but that’s likely the Knicks top offer. I can envision running into the same issue as with Mitchell and Toronto wanting one of Grimes/Quickley along with Obi and the three picks. They will have plenty of suitors and they are a very smart franchise. Rose trying to work a deal with a much more seasoned GM has a familiar feel to it, lol

Right now Knicks have

All of there own 1sts
Dallas / pistons/ wizards /bucks protected picks

Obi iq grimes cam deuce as trade chips


A deal of obi and cam 2 protected picks and 1 unprotected would be reasonable and then you still have a ton of ammo to go acquire your star player.

If they want more than that. Then I’d steer clear of any og deal

In comment 16015671 BigBlueShock said:

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In comment 16015666 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015664 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 16015659 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015650 Knickstape said: Quote: Difficult for teams the rest of the year Send obi and an unprotected and protected 1st Brunson rj og Randle Mitch Deuce Quick grimes hart/sims Be fun to watch Og make life incredibly difficult for the Tatums browns Mitchell’s hardens and so on moving forward yup 100% and OG can play the 2, 3 or 4, so he you can have a lineup to start the second and 4th quarters with Quickley, Mcbride, Grimes, OG, Sims or Hart.. The defense with that group would be amazing to watch.. The problem is OG is going to cost a ton. So what are we willing to give up? Someone mentioned earlier Obi and two firsts. That’s not close to what it would take. After adding OG, those picks lose value. Toronto isn’t trading him for Obi and a couple of late 20’s picks. And we all know Leon isn’t comfortable giving up too many of his precious assets that he’s worked so hard to acquire… My guess a final deal would end up being Obi, Cam and Rose plus an unprotected and 2 protected for OG and cap filler.. You’re probably close but that’s likely the Knicks top offer. I can envision running into the same issue as with Mitchell and Toronto wanting one of Grimes/Quickley along with Obi and the three picks. They will have plenty of suitors and they are a very smart franchise. Rose trying to work a deal with a much more seasoned GM has a familiar feel to it, lol

Probably would ask for Grimes or Quick and i turn around and offer 2 unprotected picks and see if they bite, if they dont i move on to the next level down for a wing..

Knicks need to add a wing to either come off the bench or start and have Grimes come off the bench..

BUT OG deal then opens the Knicks up to offer Rj in a star deal and you could really go all in and have a contender.

the asks right now are insane. You have to see if these teams come off of that as we get to the deadline.

In comment 16015573 Stu11 said:

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In comment 16015565 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015564 steve in ky said: Quote: In comment 16015563 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 16015558 steve in ky said: Quote: He’s done it all season and again tonight. When they are leading late in a game and want to use up the clock he lets the ball roll down the court before picking it up which of course something you do when behind and trying to conserve the clock. Clock runs after a made basket until 2 minutes left I’m pretty sure he’s done it with that time frame i havnt paid to much attention to it, i know he did it a couple of times with the clock runing He does it to conserve time on the shot clock. It doesn't start till the ball touches someone in bounds. This way you get near half court with no time coming off the SC.

Brunson has possibly the highest basketball IQ in the NBA.

In comment 16015691 Stu11 said:

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the asks right now are insane. You have to see if these teams come off of that as we get to the deadline.

For me the problem isn't teams starting out with an insane ask but it's the refusal to budge that is getting ridiculous. But I'm sure the Bulls can't afford to look bad in the morning pundit show if they trade the Bald Mamba for anything less than a major haul. I mean that's more important than taking a deal which helps your team and cap space

to Reddish and Jae Crowder...According to reports the GM told teams whoever calls back first gets Nwora

In comment 16015685 nygiants16 said:

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BUT OG deal then opens the Knicks up to offer Rj in a star deal and you could really go all in and have a contender.

Mr 16,the president of the RJ fan club is on line 1...
he insists you give RJ some time,he is only 22-oh and he came up huge in crunch time last nite

In comment 16015818 AG5686 said:

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In comment 16015685 nygiants16 said: Quote: BUT OG deal then opens the Knicks up to offer Rj in a star deal and you could really go all in and have a contender. Mr 16,the president of the RJ fan club is on line 1... he insists you give RJ some time,he is only 22-oh and he came up huge in crunch time last nite

Its not that i want to give up on him, not at all, i just dont know his fit next to Brunson and Randle as the 3rd guy..Can he be effecient enough next 2 other big scorers..

In comment 16015685 nygiants16 said:

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BUT OG deal then opens the Knicks up to offer Rj in a star deal and you could really go all in and have a contender.

You are and RJ will be hard to put in any deal for a star because they will be rebuilding and a poison pill 30 million dollars contract is not what a team will want.
Also your hate for RJ is not the same as the organization, he is a home grown talent that is 22 years old with strong work ethic that they expect to get better.
Grimes will move the bench if OG is traded for and if RJ and OG work out the remainder of the season that will be your lineup.
Grimes offensive liabilities are going to hold him back, he is only 22 and if he could develop a handle and some off the dribble moves he could be a heck of a player but right now he is not there

and again me wanting to trade him is not trading him for a bum, i said trade for a star player..

I am not hating on Rj by saying he may not fit next to Randle and Brunson, i dont understsnd why that is taken as hating..

So what do I know.

But, while I like the concept of Quickley with the starters full time, I'm not sure that's best.

What grimes does off-ball in the starting lineup is sorely needed. The ball sticks a lot between Randle, Brunson, and RJ.

You NEED cutters and spacers, and he does that. It's a good fit to have his skillset out there

At the same time, Grimes would benefit offensively from playing with the second unit where he can take more shots.

4th leading scorer on a team well below .500
14.6 PER
.77 WS/48

It's true he is "Thibs player" so he would get minutes. But why should knicks build a team around Thibs, who is not going to be the coach longterm?

I mean if they can get him cheap? Sure. He is a good defender. But I would not give up any of the young core guys for him.

In comment 16015943 Vanzetti said:

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4th leading scorer on a team well below .500 14.6 PER .77 WS/48 It's true he is "Thibs player" so he would get minutes. But why should knicks build a team around Thibs, who is not going to be the coach longterm? I mean if they can get him cheap? Sure. He is a good defender. But I would not give up any of the young core guys for him.

Absolutely. There's such disconnect with the front office and Thibs.

In comment 16015943 Vanzetti said:

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4th leading scorer on a team well below .500 14.6 PER .77 WS/48 It's true he is "Thibs player" so he would get minutes. But why should knicks build a team around Thibs, who is not going to be the coach longterm? I mean if they can get him cheap? Sure. He is a good defender. But I would not give up any of the young core guys for him.

My thoughts exactly, why do we want Grimes back on the bench? He’s got all the tools to where he may become a start player in his own right. Guys like him, Quick, Barrett all need to play and be allowed to progress instead of trading for someone that isn’t a star and would just steal their minutes

In comment 16015543 Enzo said:

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In comment 16015540 Vanzetti said: Quote: In comment 16015485 Professor Falken said: Quote: think Thibs and Gallant were separated at birth. Yup. Same type of coach. Both guys will bring structure and discipline the first season and have the team play over its head. But then slowly structure becomes rigidity. But Knicks are still developing. So no problem with Thibs this year. He teaches young guys the fundamentals yeah, Obi's really learning a lot.

Who is to blame? Maybe the dude just isn't that good.

Every other young player has gotten better or at least proven they can play in the NBA. Except for? Obi and Reddish.

Whenever I watch Obi the guy gets cooked on defense time and time again. Guys take him for a ride to the basket far too often. HE's an OK at best rebounder which is being kind. And he is a decent scorer who does his best work on spot up 3s and transition. Add it all up and you have a limited player who should NOT be playing big minutes if the team is trying to win and the player in front of him is named Julius Randle.

In comment 16015885 larryflower37 said:

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In comment 16015685 nygiants16 said: Quote: BUT OG deal then opens the Knicks up to offer Rj in a star deal and you could really go all in and have a contender. You are and RJ will be hard to put in any deal for a star because they will be rebuilding and a poison pill 30 million dollars contract is not what a team will want. Also your hate for RJ is not the same as the organization, he is a home grown talent that is 22 years old with strong work ethic that they expect to get better. Grimes will move the bench if OG is traded for and if RJ and OG work out the remainder of the season that will be your lineup. Grimes offensive liabilities are going to hold him back, he is only 22 and if he could develop a handle and some off the dribble moves he could be a heck of a player but right now he is not there

NY16 love ya brother you self described as the RJ hater.
I get as frustrated as everyone about RJ but I don't think the organization feels the same as you and IMO they would move Grimes, Quickley Etc. Before RJ.

I can't argue with that possibility. I just don't think the guy is that good. He literally looks like he isn't that good unless he's flying down the court for a dunk or shooting an open corner 3. He's not thick enough to body the PFs/Cs and he can't get his own shot. So you can't run your O through him and his D and rebounding is basically below average. Good luck with that.

If we were talking about a 25 win team maybe you play him more. This team could win 48-50 if things break right. They are trying to avoid the play in. I know we poo-poo the ceiling of this team but the mgmt and HC want to win as many games as possible.

I wasn't really coming at you for any thibs hate or Obi defense, I get what you were saying--it's true, Obi isn't learning...

I know he would cost more and probably isn't available but hes the Raptor I would be targeting.

You would have to adjust against a few big teams but I love a 5 of Brunson, Grimes, RJ, Randle, Siakam.

Would Toppin, 2 unprotected 1sts, 3 protected plus salary filler make Toronto think?

He's a 28 year old all nba player who plays both ends... You can always try to upgrade from RJ too for the next star.

In comment 16015990 TyreeHelmet said:

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I know he would cost more and probably isn't available but hes the Raptor I would be targeting. You would have to adjust against a few big teams but I love a 5 of Brunson, Grimes, RJ, Randle, Siakam. Would Toppin, 2 unprotected 1sts, 3 protected plus salary filler make Toronto think? He's a 28 year old all nba player who plays both ends... You can always try to upgrade from RJ too for the next star.

He plays PF and would clash with Randle.

than most of you guys, just usually don't want to get my head taken off for that opinion. I really don't see a quality NBA starter. He's good for his role now.

including the entire 4th qtr. I don't watch the Knicks much but they were playing Boston who I sports hate and nothing else that interested me was on. I don't follow the NBA like all of you guys do. I barely know who the guys on the Knicks are. But IMO you don't need to follow the NBA to see that no team can win consistently playing the way the Knicks did in the last 5 minutes last night. You guys tell me, is the way Randle and Brunson played on offense at the end of the game on them on the coach or both? That was embarrassing to watch. Just hero street ball 1 on 5 with 4 guys standing around doing nothing but watching. That's a NBA end of the game half court offense? That games plays out the same way 10 times and IMO Boston wins 8 of them.

In comment 16015996 larryflower37 said:

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In comment 16015990 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: I know he would cost more and probably isn't available but hes the Raptor I would be targeting. You would have to adjust against a few big teams but I love a 5 of Brunson, Grimes, RJ, Randle, Siakam. Would Toppin, 2 unprotected 1sts, 3 protected plus salary filler make Toronto think? He's a 28 year old all nba player who plays both ends... You can always try to upgrade from RJ too for the next star. He plays PF and would clash with Randle.

You can’t play them together?

It happens year after year, the Bulls, Charlotte, Indiana and Toronto all stink. Our players are worth nothing. We beat this teams out for playoffs (sometimes playoff position seeding) and all their players are worth multiple picks players etc and all Knick players are garbage. I just don’t get it.

Just caught the end here but I'm sure they'll post the whole interview later. Damage control, as usual.

In comment 16016138 bceagle05 said:

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Just caught the end here but I'm sure they'll post the whole interview later. Damage control, as usual.

Dolan doesn't come off badly in the interview. Even when I heard him years ago he didn't come off badly but the petty weird shit he pulls paints him in a bad light and it should.

He spends money and seems to butt out so I don't have an issue with him. I am not wearing an FU** Dolan T shirt to any games and I am not a lawyer...so I am safe.

He only plays 50% of his minutes at PF. He plays the rest at SF and about 20% at C (26% this year). He actually might be the kind of guy that can play Center in a bit of a smaller ball 5.

Of course, that would only be if Thibs would play him at either of those positions.

In comment 16016208 djm said:

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In comment 16016138 bceagle05 said: Quote: Just caught the end here but I'm sure they'll post the whole interview later. Damage control, as usual. Dolan doesn't come off badly in the interview. Even when I heard him years ago he didn't come off badly but the petty weird shit he pulls paints him in a bad light and it should. He spends money and seems to butt out so I don't have an issue with him. I am not wearing an FU** Dolan T shirt to any games and I am not a lawyer...so I am safe.

After he stepped away from involving himself in the basketball operations when he relented it to Jackson, he basically said it was a relief and he realized he didn’t have the expertise to be that involved. The guy spends money and by all accounts for years now keeps an arms length from the process. If he a jerk in person, I don’t know him but it certainly sounds that way but he isn’t a problem as an owner these days.

Blaming him for everything wrong with the Knicks is just a popular take that a lot of people go to but I don’t believe he’s been a problem for years

In comment 16016281 steve in ky said:

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In comment 16016208 djm said: Quote: In comment 16016138 bceagle05 said: Quote: Just caught the end here but I'm sure they'll post the whole interview later. Damage control, as usual. Dolan doesn't come off badly in the interview. Even when I heard him years ago he didn't come off badly but the petty weird shit he pulls paints him in a bad light and it should. He spends money and seems to butt out so I don't have an issue with him. I am not wearing an FU** Dolan T shirt to any games and I am not a lawyer...so I am safe. After he stepped away from involving himself in the basketball operations when he relented it to Jackson, he basically said it was a relief and he realized he didn’t have the expertise to be that involved. The guy spends money and by all accounts for years now keeps an arms length from the process. If he a jerk in person, I don’t know him but it certainly sounds that way but he isn’t a problem as an owner these days. Blaming him for everything wrong with the Knicks is just a popular take that a lot of people go to but I don’t believe he’s been a problem for years

+1

In comment 16015667 nygiants16 said:

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who do they think they are trading? haha

& I want to bed Jessica Alba. Both Chicago & I have the same odds of our hopes coming to fruition.

Chicago should blow it up though. And I'd fire Donovan while I'm @ it too.

Dolan has, from all accounts, stepped back. That's a good thing. The bad thing is he's still a complete prick who can't sell the team fast enough. He's an absolute embarrassment with the shit he pulls. & it's a fact that he's driven away stars with his buffoonery. If we had a sane owner, we'd have inked some big names over the years. Dolan is the reason a lot of stars don't want to come to New York. Hopefully his stepping back can changes this, but the perception of him-with the general public & probably within league circles-is baked into the cake, if you will.

even if he does not make those decisions himself.

It is Dolan who decides that Leon Rose and World Wide Wes make the player personnel decisions for the Knicks.

If, say, Danny Ainge were hired by Dolan to make those decisions, we would see a completely different approach to building a team.

To say Dolan doesn't matter because he has stepped back from making the player personnel decisions, as such, is to miss that point, entirely.

In comment 16016354 shyster said:

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even if he does not make those decisions himself. It is Dolan who decides that Leon Rose and World Wide Wes make the player personnel decisions for the Knicks. If, say, Danny Ainge were hired by Dolan to make those decisions, we would see a completely different approach to building a team. To say Dolan doesn't matter because he has stepped back from making the player personnel decisions, as such, is to miss that point, entirely.

Counterpoint. The vast majority of complaints about Dolan state that he interferes with the basketball management which people point out is wrong. So stating that Dolan is responsible for the management isn't addressing the fact that the complaints about Dolan are usually wrong.

Also, let's be real here. Aigne has struck out more as a GM than he did as a 3rd baseman but everyone pretends he is a genius thanks to the gift from his former teammate Kevin McHale. A trade so lopsided that it got his ass fired as a decision maker and McHale eventually ended his post player career as a mediocre coach.

A lot of people were excited about his hiring Jackson and general consensus was it was a good move. Perry was a solid basketball man with previous experience and also with Rose a lot of people were excited and complimented the choice .

It’s not like he has been hiring laughing stocks

And that's all you can ask for. Yeah, he picked the GM, but if he leaves him alone to do his job that's exactly what you want.

In comment 16016438 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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And that's all you can ask for. Yeah, he picked the GM, but if he leaves him alone to do his job that's exactly what you want.

Yeah and all owners basically pick their GM’s unless you are named Jerry Jones

I’m concerned that Dolan dismisses any smart basketball execs who lay out plans for a true rebuild. Even during his interview the other day he said something to the effect of: “The Knicks are fine - we’re not one of the best teams in the league but we’re not one of the worst either.”

That appears to be all that matters to him: just make the team competitive enough to pack the Garden and keep fans from chanting “Sell The Team.”

I bet Phil Jackson and Leon Rose told him what he wanted to hear: I’ll keep your team competitive while we rebuild. It’s a sales pitch, not necessarily a real plan. But we’ll see if Leon can pull a rabbit out of his hat.

In comment 16016452 bceagle05 said:

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I’m concerned that Dolan dismisses any smart basketball execs who lay out plans for a true rebuild. Even during his interview the other day he said something to the effect of: “The Knicks are fine - we’re not one of the best teams in the league but we’re not one of the worst either.” That appears to be all that matters to him: just make the team competitive enough to pack the Garden and keep fans from chanting “Sell The Team.” I bet Phil Jackson and Leon Rose told him what he wanted to hear: I’ll keep your team competitive while we rebuild. It’s a sales pitch, not necessarily a real plan. But we’ll see if Leon can pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Of course that’s entirely all conjecture

but his quote is similar to things he said in the past about an “entertaining product.” I wish he would raise the bar a bit.

Western Conference is crazy - seeds 4-13 are all separated by three games in the loss column.

In comment 16016113 arniefez said:

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including the entire 4th qtr. I don't watch the Knicks much but they were playing Boston who I sports hate and nothing else that interested me was on. I don't follow the NBA like all of you guys do. I barely know who the guys on the Knicks are. But IMO you don't need to follow the NBA to see that no team can win consistently playing the way the Knicks did in the last 5 minutes last night. You guys tell me, is the way Randle and Brunson played on offense at the end of the game on them on the coach or both? That was embarrassing to watch. Just hero street ball 1 on 5 with 4 guys standing around doing nothing but watching. That's a NBA end of the game half court offense? That games plays out the same way 10 times and IMO Boston wins 8 of them.

Passing normally stops when Randle gets the ball