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Interesting extremes at cornerback with two players

Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 11:18 am
Darnay Holmes is a controversial player. If you re-read Sy'56 game reviews, you can even tell he is conflicted. Loves his physicality and aggressiveness, but he is also exposed at times late in games. For better or worse, Wink seems to love him (regularly praises him), so it may be a case of Holmes also being put in tough spots in Wink's often all-or-nothing defense.

However, one thing is interesting. Holmes has been flagged 17 times in three years, including NINE times in 2022 (six were defensive holding, two were pass interference, and one illegal contact).

At the other end of the spectrum, Cor'Dale Flott was not flagged once as a rookie despite playing in 45 percent of the defensive snaps in the 11 regular-season games he played (he missed six games with a calf injury).
Holmes is  
McNally's_Nuts : 1/27/2023 11:21 am : link
a net negative player for the Giants and no one can tell me other wise.
RE: Holmes is  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 11:23 am : link
In comment 16015821 McNally's_Nuts said:
Quote:
a net negative player for the Giants and no one can tell me other wise.


Wink would tell you otherwise.
Holmes is a potential defensive holding call on every snap  
Greg from LI : 1/27/2023 11:25 am : link
That's why I'm not a fan.

I like Flott's potential.
I think Holmes would be better  
Clearwater Joe : 1/27/2023 11:26 am : link
playing on the outside. He does not seem to have the requisite quickness to play nickel. When the WR enters his break, either inside or out, Holmes winds up grabbing to try to keep up. Most slot guys just seem to quick for him.
a key  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 11:30 am : link
unknown moving forward is Nick McCloud's upside. He had problems with the Philly receivers, but for the most part, played far better than anyone could expect given he was a waiver-wire pick-up. McCloud flashed at times. How good is he?
Holmes  
Mark from Jersey : 1/27/2023 11:31 am : link
Can remember every call on him but what comes to mind is me thinking he really didn't have to do what he did to get flagged.

I feel its more mental with him in coverage. He has the athleticism to keep up with a good portion of the WRs in the NFL.
Holmes is god awful  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2023 11:32 am : link
In man coverage. A huge liability in that scheme. Not sure what Martindale is seeing that we aren’t.
Holmes is a player  
jvm52106 : 1/27/2023 11:33 am : link
you need to have during the season but one you do fear will cost you at some point in time. His reputation is one that will get him flagged but honestly it is a rep well earned.

I have HUGE hopes for Flott. I am positive (too busy to go back and check) that I was really high on him after the draft. His play is CB perfect, it is his physical stature that was the concern. He has to add some bulk but I can see him being a sticky man to man cover corner.
RE: RE: Holmes is  
McNally's_Nuts : 1/27/2023 11:33 am : link
In comment 16015825 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16015821 McNally's_Nuts said:


Quote:


a net negative player for the Giants and no one can tell me other wise.



Wink would tell you otherwise.


He might, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Holmes is a liability on the field because he is too handsy/grabby.
I still think  
George : 1/27/2023 11:34 am : link
we draft one in April.

Any word on Aaron Robinson, who was playing well before his season-ending injury?
He seems to be the player other teams look to attack  
arniefez : 1/27/2023 11:34 am : link
when they need a big first down. It seems to work for them more often than not.
RE: Holmes  
MotownGIANTS : 1/27/2023 11:35 am : link
In comment 16015831 Mark from Jersey said:
Quote:
Can remember every call on him but what comes to mind is me thinking he really didn't have to do what he did to get flagged.

I feel its more mental with him in coverage. He has the athleticism to keep up with a good portion of the WRs in the NFL.


That's confidenece (or lack of it) .... that can be coached up.
RE: I still think  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 11:35 am : link
In comment 16015837 George said:
Quote:
we draft one in April.

Any word on Aaron Robinson, who was playing well before his season-ending injury?


Last thing I saw was a 9-month recovery from his surgery in November. Not good.
Quick question  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2023 11:38 am : link
Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.
RE: Quick question  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 11:43 am : link
In comment 16015845 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.


No chance.
RE: Holmes is god awful  
Chris684 : 1/27/2023 11:43 am : link
In comment 16015833 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In man coverage. A huge liability in that scheme. Not sure what Martindale is seeing that we aren’t.


Considering he's an NFL coordinator and has been in football for 30+ years there's probably a lot Wink sees that fans on a message board don't or can't, just a guess.
RE: Quick question  
Amtoft : 1/27/2023 11:46 am : link
In comment 16015845 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.


The guy gives up 33 yards per game covering the hardest players and you want to cut him? He shut down Jefferson who is top 3 WR in the game.
RE: RE: RE: Holmes is  
BMac : 1/27/2023 11:46 am : link
In comment 16015836 McNally's_Nuts said:
Quote:
In comment 16015825 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16015821 McNally's_Nuts said:


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a net negative player for the Giants and no one can tell me other wise.



Wink would tell you otherwise.



He might, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Holmes is a liability on the field because he is too handsy/grabby.


Ladies and gentlemen, the next DC of the NY Giants, Mcnally's Nuts (and we agree...he's crazy as a bedbug!) The above is one of the most arrogant statements I've yet to see here.
RE: RE: Quick question  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2023 12:09 pm : link
In comment 16015854 Amtoft said:
Quote:
In comment 16015845 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.



The guy gives up 33 yards per game covering the hardest players and you want to cut him? He shut down Jefferson who is top 3 WR in the game.


He’s a good player but not elite. He got beat a ton in a few games this season (Lamb in the first Cowboys game, Lockett in the Seahawks game). He also missed 7 games. He carries a 19 mill cap number next season and that number is way too high.
Holmes  
AG5686 : 1/27/2023 12:10 pm : link
the play that stands out for me was the end of the Minnesota game where he stood there and watched as his teammates prevented the player from getting the first down...
this stuff is changeable-but it does make me wonder
RE: RE: RE: RE: Holmes is  
McNally's_Nuts : 1/27/2023 12:13 pm : link
In comment 16015855 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 16015836 McNally's_Nuts said:


Quote:


In comment 16015825 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16015821 McNally's_Nuts said:


Quote:


a net negative player for the Giants and no one can tell me other wise.



Wink would tell you otherwise.



He might, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Holmes is a liability on the field because he is too handsy/grabby.



Ladies and gentlemen, the next DC of the NY Giants, Mcnally's Nuts (and we agree...he's crazy as a bedbug!) The above is one of the most arrogant statements I've yet to see here.


The penalties say other wise. It isn't arrogant when the numbers support it.
Holmes uses his hands way too much..  
DefenseWins : 1/27/2023 12:14 pm : link
and agree that he gets flagged too much as well. However, he does cover well and does a nice job supporting the run.

This team has had a very shallow bench for years. In some instances, our starters were guys who would ride the bench on most teams.

Holmes is a guy who can be valuable as a backup in the event that one of our starters gets hurt. So, if his contract is cost effective for us, then we should keep him on the team.

Anyone  
Thegratefulhead : 1/27/2023 12:14 pm : link
Know the QB rating of opposing QBs when throwing at Holmes?
RE: Anyone  
JoeSchoens11 : 1/27/2023 12:20 pm : link
In comment 16015898 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Know the QB rating of opposing QBs when throwing at Holmes?
I don’t, but QB rating doesn’t get impacted by penalties (I’m not sure if qbr takes it into account) and that’s the issue with Holmes.
Wasn't one of those penalties an awful call from the Thanksgiving game  
ThreePoints : 1/27/2023 12:32 pm : link
Phantom holding call, I believe. I think a lot of people on this board thought it was home cooking for Dallas on Thanksgiving.
RE: Quick question  
JoeMoney19 : 1/27/2023 12:40 pm : link
In comment 16015845 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.

With our lack of options at punt returner?
RE: RE: Quick question  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2023 12:52 pm : link
In comment 16015925 JoeMoney19 said:
Quote:
In comment 16015845 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


Does anyone think Adoree gets cut this offseason? Cutting him would save the team 8.5 million (with 10.5 in dead cap). Adoree is a good player, but he’s not super dependable as I don’t think he’s ever played a full season.


With our lack of options at punt returner?


That literally made me laugh
Holmes is a underatted key player  
JerseyCityJoe : 1/27/2023 1:10 pm : link
Half you guys don't know what your watching. Did you like Philly rag dolling our DB's last week? Holmes was the only one holding his ground. His value doesn't show up in the box scores or PFF. He's doing the dirty work.

There is a reason he's out there playing him all the time.
Cutting Adoree doesn't make any sense in my view  
bigbluehoya : 1/27/2023 1:16 pm : link
It's creating money for the sake of creating money. It makes a weakness more glaring, and you'll spend well more than the $8m you save just to get back to where you were.

The takeaway from the OP that sticks with me is Flott. He had a quietly strong rookie season. Continued improvement would do a lot for the future outlook of this secondary.

Hitting big on some third rounders is part of what has been lacking for this team over the last decade.
RE: Cutting Adoree doesn't make any sense in my view  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/27/2023 1:23 pm : link
In comment 16015972 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
It's creating money for the sake of creating money. It makes a weakness more glaring, and you'll spend well more than the $8m you save just to get back to where you were.

The takeaway from the OP that sticks with me is Flott. He had a quietly strong rookie season. Continued improvement would do a lot for the future outlook of this secondary.

Hitting big on some third rounders is part of what has been lacking for this team over the last decade.



Schoen and Daboll cut Logan Ryan last season and saved a grand total of 700k. Stranger cuts have happened. This team has a ton of key free agents and we don’t know how these contracts will be structured to fit into the cap this season.

I’m not saying that it will happen, but I wouldn’t be shocked if it did.
RE: RE: Cutting Adoree doesn't make any sense in my view  
bigbluehoya : 1/27/2023 1:25 pm : link
In comment 16015984 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 16015972 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


It's creating money for the sake of creating money. It makes a weakness more glaring, and you'll spend well more than the $8m you save just to get back to where you were.

The takeaway from the OP that sticks with me is Flott. He had a quietly strong rookie season. Continued improvement would do a lot for the future outlook of this secondary.

Hitting big on some third rounders is part of what has been lacking for this team over the last decade.




Schoen and Daboll cut Logan Ryan last season and saved a grand total of 700k. Stranger cuts have happened. This team has a ton of key free agents and we don’t know how these contracts will be structured to fit into the cap this season.

I’m not saying that it will happen, but I wouldn’t be shocked if it did.


There seemed to be a lot more going on with the Ryan situation, and our balls were truly to the buzzsaw on the cap (thanks Dave!). Winning in 2022 was an afterthought at that point.

This team is now trying to win football games.

I just don't see it. But I've been wrong many, many times before.
.  
bigblue5611 : 1/27/2023 1:29 pm : link


I like his play, but he's gotta work on those grabs.
RE: .  
JerseyCityJoe : 1/27/2023 1:38 pm : link
In comment 16015994 bigblue5611 said:
Quote:


I like his play, but he's gotta work on those grabs.


That's good.
One round  
pjcas18 : 1/27/2023 1:42 pm : link
makes a big difference.

Holmes has provided good value for a 4th round pick.

And he shows (IMO) characteristics that can be corrected or coached up to continue to provide low-cost value that a team needs. Not a star, but he can man the position.

As a day 3 pick he's a win.

Flott, as 3rd round pick also showed good value IMO and has tendencies and traits that if he improves can make him a star.

Both good picks IMO but obviously different players with different trajectories.

Eric. One more difference:  
Marty in Albany : 1/27/2023 3:33 pm : link
Pretty much half the plays in a game are running plays. I believe that Holmes is a lot better than Flot at run defense (tackling the ball carrier).
RE: .  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/27/2023 3:45 pm : link
In comment 16015994 bigblue5611 said:
Quote:


I like his play, but he's gotta work on those grabs.


Ha... I was actually think that when I typed it.
RE: RE: Holmes is god awful  
joeinpa : 1/27/2023 5:23 pm : link
In comment 16015851 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 16015833 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In man coverage. A huge liability in that scheme. Not sure what Martindale is seeing that we aren’t.



Considering he's an NFL coordinator and has been in football for 30+ years there's probably a lot Wink sees that fans on a message board don't or can't, just a guess.


Maybe Wink understands the pressure put on a slot corner playing man to man, often with no help.

But to go so far as to state Wink sees things that those of us watching on tv don’t grasp, is just nonsense, we have many experts here, I m surprised you don’t know that
Exactly  
JerseyCityJoe : 1/27/2023 7:57 pm : link
.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/27/2023 8:07 pm : link
I think Flott can be a player, but Good Lord...dude needs to start eating more.
I think the Giants see Flott as a starting outside CB.  
mittenedman : 1/27/2023 8:14 pm : link
At LSU he was praised for his natural coverage ability. The scuttlebutt was he was a potential 1st round pick if he stayed in school another year.

I was impressed with how well he held up against A.J. Brown.
I like Holmes  
armstead98 : 1/27/2023 8:35 pm : link
He’s far from perfect but he’s a smart player who plays way bigger than his size. Sure we can look to upgrade the position but he’s a solid player who could be on the team for a couple more years. He’ll definitely get another contract in the league.

Flott jumps off the screen, as Schoen said he’s got a high ceiling. Very different player to Holmes, hopefully makes the leap to solid outside corner next year with the arrow still pointing up.
There are some posters on BBI  
WillieYoung : 1/28/2023 10:04 am : link
who value cap space more than winning. They want to cut everyone so we have enough cap space to sign Nate Solder and Kenny Golladay in the same year. No thanks
Flott can cover  
Vanzetti : 1/28/2023 9:36 pm : link
He is just a skinny dude who will never be able to tackle or take on blocks.

Holmes is not great in coverage. But he has the knack for blowing up screens. Knifes through and avoids the blockers.

If Holmes could stop the stupid penalties, he would be a good player.
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