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@JordanRaanan My understanding is there are scenarios for Wink Martindale to remain w/Giants despite Colts interest. With no cap for coaches, paying him like head coach could keep him in NY. He’s critical part of what they’re building + players love him. An opportunity to keep him in building. |
I think Wink LOVES NYC, loves these defensive players, and loves what Daboll is building here.
But it really isn't about money. I also think he wants (and deserves) to be a HC, and has wanted that for a long time.
OTOH, (as weird as this seems) he's closer to building a winner with the Giants than he would be with the Colts. If the Colts don't turn it around, he's probably fired after 2 or 3 seasons at the most.
Hope he stays. He got more out of a rag-tag crew than anyone had a right to expect. Imagine what he could do with some off-season additions?
Thankfully, the NFL is not baseball
That contract didn't stop him from jumping to the St, Louis Rams as HC (where he got paid close to 3 million a year).
The question is, will John pay Wink close to HC money...and then have to come up with bucks for Kafka?
That contract didn't stop him from jumping to the St, Louis Rams as HC (where he got paid close to 3 million a year).
The question is, will John pay Wink close to HC money...and then have to come up with bucks for Kafka?
If that's what keeps the peace, then so be it. Mere cab fare in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, I'm more concerned about the Bucs hiring away Tierney, who would probably have the inside track to be the new OC if/when Kafka is hired away.
And the rest of the owners of the NY Giants.
It is a widely held belief in these parts, this forum specifically, that , if reports are to be believed, Steve Tisch deseves s good deal of credit for our current situation, in a good way, because he force John to fire Joe and we wound up with Brian, Mike and Don.
I am of the belief there are at least 6, as possibly as many as 11 part owners of the New York Football Giants, who, as individuals own between 4.5 and 20%. It's not an exact statement, but within the parametes of the staement, i'm willing to bet that's an accurate statement.
The exact numbers don't really matter, but the idea that there are more than a few and no single person holds a big enough chunk to speak for everyone, and even if onre voice speak for one side of the families, ( if they even fall out in monolithic invariable family lines), It seems to me that they want to keep all 3
A) they have to pay all 3, They can't pay the DC and OC without bringing up dabolls salary relatively soon. Not this year, but soon.
B) This is not gonna be a John Mara thing. He might be one those only holding the 4.5%, and I think it more likely than not that's the case. He doesn't have a huge piece in ralation to the position he holds, they aren't proportionate.
The rest of them ( and the next biggest voice is likely steve Tisch) are going to have to sign off. Someone has to eat the bill, and I don't think John solo is in a position to do that. Mara can say " Hey let's do this" and i think it's going to take enough money that it isn't a unilateral decision. Whose pocket does it come out of? John's alone? I doubt it.
They are all going to have to talk about this, if they are really going to pay to keep this staff tohgether for a few years. I'm very interested to see what they offer, because if the money is there, I bet they can keep them all and keep them happy. Like the man said, Pay them.
I think Wink LOVES NYC, loves these defensive players, and loves what Daboll is building here.
But it really isn't about money. I also think he wants (and deserves) to be a HC, and has wanted that for a long time.
OTOH, (as weird as this seems) he's closer to building a winner with the Giants than he would be with the Colts. If the Colts don't turn it around, he's probably fired after 2 or 3 seasons at the most.
Hope he stays. He got more out of a rag-tag crew than anyone had a right to expect. Imagine what he could do with some off-season additions?
Sure, they have plenty of money, but Steve Tisch is the treasurer, isn't he?
Not John.
Let's see what he does. See if he's a real Mensch.
Yeah I know that you have to have good players. I would include the GM and scouts in the above theory. If you attract and keep the best people to scout the players, run the organization and coach the team, then you are likely to have one of the better teams year in and year out.
Bullseye. Being a head coach is the pinnacle of the profession. He has stated that being a head coach is something he has dreamed about. It isn't about money.
Raheem Morris has had 2 interviews.
He may have the inside track based on
age 22 years younger than WinK
Joe Judge was getting a Giants paycheck this year (- his NE salary) and Shurmur may have been too.
As a business if committing to Wink means you’re going to be paying the equivalent of just 2 head coaches but you’re actually successful and winning games, do it. Its better than cycling through guys, paying dead salaries etc…
From a business standpoint, winning is way more profitable.
This. He'll take it and give Irsay his own bathroom.
And the rest of the owners of the NY Giants.
It is a widely held belief in these parts, this forum specifically, that , if reports are to be believed, Steve Tisch deseves s good deal of credit for our current situation, in a good way, because he force John to fire Joe and we wound up with Brian, Mike and Don.
I am of the belief there are at least 6, as possibly as many as 11 part owners of the New York Football Giants, who, as individuals own between 4.5 and 20%. It's not an exact statement, but within the parametes of the staement, i'm willing to bet that's an accurate statement.
The exact numbers don't really matter, but the idea that there are more than a few and no single person holds a big enough chunk to speak for everyone, and even if onre voice speak for one side of the families, ( if they even fall out in monolithic invariable family lines), It seems to me that they want to keep all 3
A) they have to pay all 3, They can't pay the DC and OC without bringing up dabolls salary relatively soon. Not this year, but soon.
B) This is not gonna be a John Mara thing. He might be one those only holding the 4.5%, and I think it more likely than not that's the case. He doesn't have a huge piece in ralation to the position he holds, they aren't proportionate.
The rest of them ( and the next biggest voice is likely steve Tisch) are going to have to sign off. Someone has to eat the bill, and I don't think John solo is in a position to do that. Mara can say " Hey let's do this" and i think it's going to take enough money that it isn't a unilateral decision. Whose pocket does it come out of? John's alone? I doubt it.
They are all going to have to talk about this, if they are really going to pay to keep this staff tohgether for a few years. I'm very interested to see what they offer, because if the money is there, I bet they can keep them all and keep them happy. Like the man said, Pay them.
Ownership is split between the Mara family and Tisch family. Even though the Mara family is split between their shares John Mara runs the team and holds the decision making. They’re not all involved and making these decisions.
Also, they’ve been paying multiple head coaches as is because you still have to pay out their contract after you fire them. The money honestly shouldn’t be an issue, specifically since Wink makes this team better and more marketable, which is in turn more profitable.
That contract didn't stop him from jumping to the St, Louis Rams as HC (where he got paid close to 3 million a year).
The question is, will John pay Wink close to HC money...and then have to come up with bucks for Kafka?
Kafka is more replaceable than Wink IMO. Hate to lose either so soon but if they lose one Wink will be the harder to replace.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
A quick Google search an this is the first one that popped up from 2021 if you don’t believe me…
Kellen Moore is Making More To Be Cowboys Coordinator Than Boise HC - ( New Window )
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
Average HC salary is $7m. Sure you have top coaches that skew the number higher, but even the lesser paid coaches are making $4m+. If you think we’re paying Wink that kind of money, it’s your head that’s buried in the sand.
Did you bother to read the article? The key point being Moore was paid $2M per year to stay at Dallas as a coordinator, which you said was supposedly “unprecedented”. Wtf does Boise have to do with anything? The same article said he was scheduled to interview for the Eagles HC job but decided to stay after getting paid.
Moral to the story? Mara WOULD NOT be setting some kind of new precedent by paying Wink to stay.
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In comment 16016569 giantBCP said:
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
Average HC salary is $7m. Sure you have top coaches that skew the number higher, but even the lesser paid coaches are making $4m+. If you think we’re paying Wink that kind of money, it’s your head that’s buried in the sand.
Here’s an article about Dan Quinn. The article was before he decided to stay in Dallas AGAIN, but he was already making $4.5 Million per year. As a DC.
Again, not unprecedented.
Dan Quinn Contract 5 Years/$4.5M per year to be Dallas DC - ( New Window )
This may not be all that dissimilar to Pat Grahams first year as DC in NY that finished on a high note. Giants gave him a sizeable pay raise to remain with the team.
Sometimes coaches also feel a bit of loyalty to an organization that has teeated them well. He may want to 'finish ' the great thing they've started here or at least give one more year before bolting for the HC spot. If we win a Super Bowl or close to it he may get more offers than a potentially toxic situation down in Indy too.
Lastly I think Daboll has largely given him autonomy over the defense so Wink is kind of a defacto Head coach of sorts for the defense. Meaning hes not nearly as micromanaged or directed by the HC as some other coordinators often can be.
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It isn't a negotiation tactic. Wink has not been shy about his dream of becoming a HC. Now, maybe Indy isn't a great fit but money isn't going to take him away from his dream.
This may not be all that dissimilar to Pat Grahams first year as DC in NY that finished on a high note. Giants gave him a sizeable pay raise to remain with the team.
Sometimes coaches also feel a bit of loyalty to an organization that has teeated them well. He may want to 'finish ' the great thing they've started here or at least give one more year before bolting for the HC spot. If we win a Super Bowl or close to it he may get more offers than a potentially toxic situation down in Indy too.
Lastly I think Daboll has largely given him autonomy over the defense so Wink is kind of a defacto Head coach of sorts for the defense. Meaning hes not nearly as micromanaged or directed by the HC as some other coordinators often can be.
Graham hinted that he didn't want to leave and be a HC. He also said that working for the Giants was his dream job. This is completely different than Wink coming here when he was hired and saying he has aspirations of being a HC.
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In comment 16016601 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16016569 giantBCP said:
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
Average HC salary is $7m. Sure you have top coaches that skew the number higher, but even the lesser paid coaches are making $4m+. If you think we’re paying Wink that kind of money, it’s your head that’s buried in the sand.
Here’s an article about Dan Quinn. The article was before he decided to stay in Dallas AGAIN, but he was already making $4.5 Million per year. As a DC.
Again, not unprecedented.
Dan Quinn Contract 5 Years/$4.5M per year to be Dallas DC - ( New Window )
If reports are to be believed, then Wink is already on a similar salary, and possibly even more. Let’s say that he only leaves for a HC position that offers him $8m+, do you think we would or should match that offer? I don’t see it happening.
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In comment 16016604 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16016601 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16016569 giantBCP said:
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
Average HC salary is $7m. Sure you have top coaches that skew the number higher, but even the lesser paid coaches are making $4m+. If you think we’re paying Wink that kind of money, it’s your head that’s buried in the sand.
Here’s an article about Dan Quinn. The article was before he decided to stay in Dallas AGAIN, but he was already making $4.5 Million per year. As a DC.
Again, not unprecedented.
Dan Quinn Contract 5 Years/$4.5M per year to be Dallas DC - ( New Window )
If reports are to be believed, then Wink is already on a similar salary, and possibly even more. Let’s say that he only leaves for a HC position that offers him $8m+, do you think we would or should match that offer? I don’t see it happening.
Of course not but there’s less than zero percent chance Wink gets offered $8M per year. None. McCarthy makes $4M and he’s won a Super Bowl and coaches for an owner where money does not matter. Irsey would bring back Jeff Saturday on a cheap deal if Wink actually asks for that kind of cash. He’s never been a HC
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In comment 16016604 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16016601 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16016569 giantBCP said:
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to raise coordinator salaries throughout the league and cost his fellow owners tens of millions of dollars, I would say that you’re out of your mind. The blowback would be similar to when Cleveland gave Watson a fully guaranteed deal. It’s not about the money, it’s about the precedent, and I don’t think we’d be the ones to set it.
You honestly think this is unprecedented? I know you’re not very bright but come on now. Assistant coaches salary aren’t made public but you can find enough smoke if you look hard enough. It’s speculated that Dallas is paying Kellen Moore $2 Million per year and Dan Quinn possibly more than that. You think these guys keep passing on HC jobs without the compensation? Come now. Pull your head out of the sand
Average HC salary is $7m. Sure you have top coaches that skew the number higher, but even the lesser paid coaches are making $4m+. If you think we’re paying Wink that kind of money, it’s your head that’s buried in the sand.
Here’s an article about Dan Quinn. The article was before he decided to stay in Dallas AGAIN, but he was already making $4.5 Million per year. As a DC.
Again, not unprecedented.
Dan Quinn Contract 5 Years/$4.5M per year to be Dallas DC - ( New Window )
If reports are to be believed, then Wink is already on a similar salary, and possibly even more. Let’s say that he only leaves for a HC position that offers him $8m+, do you think we would or should match that offer? I don’t see it happening.
Don't think the Giants will pay him more than Daboll obviously nor set the market but I could see them match or slightly exceed what Dallas is paying for Quinn.
You would hope the Maras have learned their lesson with lower quality coaching staffs over recent years and pay up within a little reason if it means we can keep Wink and maybe even Kafka.
Giants FINALLY have something good going with the coaching. They should try hard to keep it intact if there is a way to do it.
On the Mara side, Chris (3rd oldest) is now listed under Ownership as Senior Player Personnel Executive. Before Joe Schoen was hired as Senior Vice President and General Manager, Chris Mara was listed under Football Operations as Senior Vice President of Player Personnel and was the highest ranking Football Operations person since he owns part of the team. Susan Mara's (2nd oldest) son Tim McDonnell was promoted to Director of Player Personnel in February 2022 after Schoen was hired.
Jonathan Tisch, Steve's brother, is listed as the Treasurer of the Giants.
The Giants 50/50 ownership situation is unique in all of US sports. The NFL now has a rule that no franchise can have 50/50 ownership going forward.
The original plan laid out by by Wellington and Robert Tisch was that the Mara's run the football team and the Tisch's run the business side of team. If you believe the media reports from a year ago, IMO there is no reason not to, Steve Tisch became more involved in the football side after Joe Judge melted down. For the first time that I know of, he attended all of the GM/HC interviews in person and was in the draft room which I don't remember seeing before either. Steve Tisch was not part of the interview with Joe Judge when he was hired. Tisch met him after when the Mara's told him they wanted to hire him.
From what is publicly available the Tisch family is much more wealthy than the Mara family. Forbes values the Giants at 6 billion dollars. That's the Mara family business and there are 11 Mara children with equal shares of their 50% ownership.
Jonathan Tisch is Co-Chairman of the Board of Loews Corporation and Executive Chairman of its subsidiary Loews Hotels & Co. The company has a current market cap of 14.5 billion dollars. There are 3 Tisch children with equal shares of their 50% ownership.
Looking at his squad imo he had two blue chippers (Dex and LW) above average starters in Adoree, both safetys and Tibs and to a lesser degree Azeez. Despite this they couldn't stop the run. I was also disappointed with the playoff loss; the team was totally overmatched; its only hope was to out scheme them but we did the opposite, 4 man rush/vanilla zones. This game was set up for Wink to showcase his undoubted brilliance - imo he didnt.
I hope Wink stays, but I want to see more from him.
Looking at his squad imo he had two blue chippers (Dex and LW) above average starters in Adoree, both safetys and Tibs and to a lesser degree Azeez. Despite this they couldn't stop the run. I was also disappointed with the playoff loss; the team was totally overmatched; its only hope was to out scheme them but we did the opposite, 4 man rush/vanilla zones. This game was set up for Wink to showcase his undoubted brilliance - imo he didnt.
I hope Wink stays, but I want to see more from him.
How were we late in games and in the red zone? Considering NYG had almost zero quality depth on the Dline and after Adoree a bunch of borderline talents at CB ,
Think they did pretty darn well all things considered. Keep in mind too Wink was not calling his preffered system because he didn't have nearly the M2M coverage ability he normally looks for on the backend.
Looking at his squad imo he had two blue chippers (Dex and LW) above average starters in Adoree, both safetys and Tibs and to a lesser degree Azeez. Despite this they couldn't stop the run. I was also disappointed with the playoff loss; the team was totally overmatched; its only hope was to out scheme them but we did the opposite, 4 man rush/vanilla zones. This game was set up for Wink to showcase his undoubted brilliance - imo he didnt.
I hope Wink stays, but I want to see more from him.
Go look at his run defenses in Baltimore. Look beyond the names here. Ojulari missed a ton of time and was injured all year. Thibs missed a bunch of time too and was a rookie. Not sure what Jackson has to do with stopping tbe run and he was injured too. Our ILB were terrible.
There's nothing wrong with saying you want to see more out of this defense and him but name dropping specific guys isn't helping your argument.
Looking at his squad imo he had two blue chippers (Dex and LW) above average starters in Adoree, both safetys and Tibs and to a lesser degree Azeez. Despite this they couldn't stop the run. I was also disappointed with the playoff loss; the team was totally overmatched; its only hope was to out scheme them but we did the opposite, 4 man rush/vanilla zones. This game was set up for Wink to showcase his undoubted brilliance - imo he didnt.
I hope Wink stays, but I want to see more from him.
With respect. That could be one of the dumbest threads I’ve seen here in years.
I do however respect your right to have a different opinion to mine.
I dont think our schemes were imaginative against Philly which was imo one of the few ways we could balance the talent discrepancy. Happy that you think differently.
I do however respect your right to have a different opinion to mine.
I dont think our schemes were imaginative against Philly which was imo one of the few ways we could balance the talent discrepancy. Happy that you think differently.
You're underselling how poor the Giants were at linebacker. Our starters against Philly were not on NFL rosters in September.
Ojulari and Thibodeaux are not great against the run, Jackson, McKinney and Oju missed significant time. They lost the run stuffing DT to a torn ACL early on. They had zero depth at DT and ER.
How was the scheme unimaginative? What different schemes would have helped the JAG linebackers tackle in open space? If you weren't happy with Wink what was your expectation for the defense?
Looking at his squad imo he had two blue chippers (Dex and LW) above average starters in Adoree, both safetys and Tibs and to a lesser degree Azeez. Despite this they couldn't stop the run. I was also disappointed with the playoff loss; the team was totally overmatched; its only hope was to out scheme them but we did the opposite, 4 man rush/vanilla zones. This game was set up for Wink to showcase his undoubted brilliance - imo he didnt.
I hope Wink stays, but I want to see more from him.
This is not an 'unpopular opinion'. It's an opinion that comes from lack of understanding.
I do however respect your right to have a different opinion to mine.
I dont think our schemes were imaginative against Philly which was imo one of the few ways we could balance the talent discrepancy. Happy that you think differently.
Don't forget Balt had a top 5 D after taking Wink for a car ride into the woods and setting him free in his new home.
The 2022 Giants defense had only 2 NFL level DLs, CB 1 missed 7 games and played injured in the playoffs, CB2 was a revolving door of practice squad players, rookies and street free agents. The FS missed 8 games.
And the Giants won 10 games including a playoff game. I hope Wink stays and the FO gets him the players he needs to play the way he wants to.
I'm still annoyed by the coaching performance in that Eagles game. PHI is the better team and deserved to win. But I was expecting Daboll and Wink to empty the holster. It looked like we laid down, coaches and players.
The 2022 Giants defense had only 2 NFL level DLs, CB 1 missed 7 games and played injured in the playoffs, CB2 was a revolving door of practice squad players, rookies and street free agents. The FS missed 8 games.
And the Giants won 10 games including a playoff game. I hope Wink stays and the FO gets him the players he needs to play the way he wants to.
Fez for the win!