He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
I believe he was #1 in adjusted completion percentage
how many throws he fit into tight windows over the course of the season.
This is just one reason why the game-manager/Alex Smith comparisons just won't hunt. He was far from Captain Checkdown. Also, the one guy who had the straight line speed to take the top of a defense (Slayton) has a reputation for not-so-sure hands.
If we upgrade the WR corps with some real horses this offseason, Jones could easily top the league in completion percentage next season.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Doesn’t even try for big plays, lol, you guys are funny, wrong, but funny.
What I don't understand on those PFR % is how you can be
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
He’s nothing like Alex Smith who no matter who is WRs were couldn’t compete a pass past 10 yards. Jones is a levels better passer.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
I don’t think Alex smith is an accurate comparison for several reasons but you do realize if a punt doesn’t go off a player on his teams leg there’s at least a chance the 49ers play in the 2011 Super Bowl? I don’t mean to take anything away from the giants win that day but Alex smith was exceedingly close to taking a team to the Super Bowl.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
This, it’s like saying it’s the jockeys fault the horse isn’t faster. Have to bring in some receivers that can get separation one on one and also stretch the field.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
This, it’s like saying it’s the jockeys fault the horse isn’t faster. Have to bring in some receivers that can get separation one on one and also stretch the field.
I just don't get how anyone can think his performance is not at least somewhat tied to the lack of the quality of the WRs. Not to mention pass pro that was horrible a good part of the year.
Daboll and Kafka installed and ran a QB friendly, low risk passing offense that understood our limitation of downfield passing and some issues as they developed on the protection in some games but utilized what Jones and Barkley are able to do with their skills.
I think Richie James did pretty decent here lol 57 receptions this year and 4 TDs? Well yeah, I guess that's below average by today's standards.
He came up in bright spots! ( other than those two fumbles in Seattle) but if you saw the Giants had any chance at winning that game you are on drugs anyway
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
His accuracy is a direct result of the limited scope of the passing offense. If Joe Burrow, for instance, operated in such a limited and conservative passing offense he would have insane accuracy numbers. That's just math.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Just need to match him with a historically-good defense.
RE: RE: RE: Burrow also plays with elite talent at WR
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
Haha.
Jones was near the bottom in air yards. He was close to the bottom in PFF big time throws. If you don't see the connection between air yards and completion pct I can't help you. The physical world must be a mystery to you.
Trying to compare Jones to another QB is just another way to express your bias.
So if you don't like DJ you compare him To the bad versions of Smith, Tannehill, etc.
Also I find it amazing how some will not accept stats that do not fit their narrative. They will go to extremes to attempt to explain why the stats are flawed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Burrow also plays with elite talent at WR
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
Well according to this story, he was. Don't know who might actually be, but what this story and others tells me is that contrary to what many seem to be saying, Jones had a good season, not just a 3 game stretch.
If you look at Herbert, he was right there near the bottom of the league in intended air yards with Jones. But he had a significantly higher rate of poor throws.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
JFC! Who should have been a try for a “big play”?
Slayton? The guy who double caught every pass? Except for the ones he dropped?
Hodkins? He’s a possession receiver.
Sills? Lol!
Who else is going to catch a deep ball?!
Man, the stupidity is really something around here.
If you look at Herbert, he was right there near the bottom of the league in intended air yards with Jones. But he had a significantly higher rate of poor throws.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
Of course he was. He had absolute shit wrt deep ball.
Give him Williams and allen, like Hebert had? His numbers would have been higher. Just slightly.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
It takes 2 to tango..the list of big play receivers on giants in 2022 begins and ends with Darius Slayton…fans can’t be this naive. You can’t trot out jags at wr and expect the quarterback to make the WRs consistently beat corners deep.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
Haha.
Jones was near the bottom in air yards. He was close to the bottom in PFF big time throws. If you don't see the connection between air yards and completion pct I can't help you. The physical world must be a mystery to you.
This is crazy Guys! Who gives a crap about air yards? That’s on the QB? No it’s on protection and WR’s who can separate down field. Like it or not he is now a top 10 QB (or at least proved he had a season of a top 10 qB). With his age arguably higher. So get off your high horse knocking the kid day in and day out. Yea you are more of a talent evaluator than our own coach and GM and your analytics (that only you understand) are more comprehensive than QBR.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
I don't think your statement paints the full picture here. Our OL did not play great and he did not have anyone to throw it to for a big play.
A blanket statement like this is inaccurate and you cannot say anything until he has a true WR1, a better OL and we have to see what he does (finally) in year 2 with the same OFC.
His accuracy is a direct result of the limited scope of the passing offense. If Joe Burrow, for instance, operated in such a limited and conservative passing offense he would have insane accuracy numbers. That's just math.
Burrow has Tee Higgins and Chase!! We have, who again??
Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
who Daniel Jones is. I just do not. But the yards per attempt, as a negative since he matches Herbert and is not far from a few big name QBs, is pretty stupid hill to die on for Producer and a few others. The argument that Herbert had 4500 yards to Jones 3200 is for the mathematically impaired - yes when you throw 50% more passes in a season, you will have more yards at the end of the year.
And, (big one Producer), if you cannot comprehend the difference between Higgins, Chase and the Bengals TE vs Slayton, Hodgins(for only 1/2 year) and Bellinger then you should not be posting on a QB thread. Besides the fact that the Giants only got this offense this year while the Bengals were in theirs for 3 seasons. Makes a huge difference when the WRs know where they are supposed to be and the QB can trust that. (See Eli and Victor Cruz)
Yes, Jones sometimes does not make the correct reads quickly and that is his bugaboo. Can he fix that? We do not know. But the physical tools are more than good enough to play the game. Despite what some naysayers think, if Daboll and Schoen did not think Jones was worth keeping(for a reasonable contract), he would be gone. It is clear that Daboll believes Jones can run his offense and that is all that we fans need to know or care about. Just because Jones did not make numerous bombs this year does not mean he cannot. He obviously did it with success his rookie year and his arm is better now than what it was then. Get him a couple deep threat WRs that can actually catch the ball and we likely see it again.
He isn't and never will be Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Joe Burrow. Not many QBs are at that level. No amount of coaching can get that out of him. But he does not have to be them. Brian Daboll will design an offense that Jones can be effective in and that is not a denigration. Successful QBs are placed in an offense that they can execute repeatedly. He is also not a finished product. I am fairly certain that Daboll can get more out of him and I'd bet that Daboll and Schoen believe there is more or they wouldn't be trying to keep him.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Did you miss the fact that we have zero NFL caliber WRs?
His accuracy is a direct result of the limited scope of the passing offense. If Joe Burrow, for instance, operated in such a limited and conservative passing offense he would have insane accuracy numbers. That's just math.
Statistically, Burrow is a pretty ridiculous comp to use to try to prove your point. His 6.8 IAY is surprisingly similar to DJ’s (and Herbert’s) 6.4.
We all know he chucks it up for grabs a multiple times a game to Chase which skews the distribution up quite a bit - throwing two 40-yard bombs in 40 passes inflated his AIY an full yard compared to DJ throwing maybe two 20-yarders, while only nominally acting compaction %. Same goes for Herbert.
This means that most of DJs throws are riskier. And, as every reasonable Giants fan would concede, our wrs don’t give DJ a large passing window to work with.
there are league wide charts available for 2018-2021. More or less across the league, QBs sacrifice about 5 percentage points of accuracy for every 5 yard increment above 0 yard target depth up until 15 yards target depth. And then it is closer to sacrificing 10 pct points of accuracy for every 5 yards of target depth above that. Generally speaking.
So this is clear and objective data, not just logic, which is also good. Players who have a high percentage of throws that are shorter area, within 5 yards where the league comp pct in 2021 was between 75% and 70%, will have an advantage in accumulating a higher completion percentage than QBs with a much lower distribution of shorter throws to intermediate throws.
The small group of posters who don’t understand the passing game was efficient and effective down the stretch is naive and boring.
This applies to Jones and the pass catchers. Look up any thread from Eric in Li. There are a number of data points showing a big turn around in the effectiveness of the WRs in the home stretch.
I know that doesn’t support the tired view that Jones had it the worstest, but it’s true.
What remains to be seen is if the Giants plan on investing in a short strike, high YAC, high efficiency passing game. That’s the type of passing game KC has and Kafka came from. Look at Mahomes air yards to YAC ratio. Jones is about 1:1, Mahomes is like 1:1.5.
More than anything though, the Giants issue is pass pro. No matter how much they invest in better pedigree pass targets, they won’t blossom into brand names other teams have ifJones doesn’t have the time and confidence to let bigger players develop.
I’ve asked a couple times and maybe I never saw your response but which WR corps in the NFL is definitively worse than the Giants? There’s absolutely no question that the last 4/6 weeks of the season + the Vikings playoff game they stepped up. But they still are what they are - a group low on talent and overall ability, and not a single guy worth of a double team.
In order words, if our receiving corps went from an F to a C, it’s because they all worked hard, the remainder of the league is at a C+ or better in the talent department.
Furthermore I think the big 4 QBs can make it work but the other 25+ QBs won’t be able to overcome the limitations of this kind of crew, Jones included. I think our ceiling with this offense has hit its limit, and we desperately need an injection of talent.
Why is it all that important to debate whether the Giants
If you look at Herbert, he was right there near the bottom of the league in intended air yards with Jones. But he had a significantly higher rate of poor throws.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
The most interesting post on this thread: Aside from the direct Herbert-Jones comps, interesting in and of themselves. As to the language I bolded, yes, one would think logical. Yet, and I don't have stats to support this, but in the case of Eli over the years, for example, my eyes told me his short throws, screens, short crossing patterns (often behind the receiver (esp. l-to-r iirc) displayed inordinate lack of accuracy relative to his longer passes, post and sideline patterns. I throw this out there by way of suggesting that individual passers' inherent talents may not be a function, simply, of the distance of passes thrown but specific to that QB's arm talent/hand-eye processing/accuracy of execution.
That's in part why these proclamations that Jones is Tannehill or he is Cousins but not x, y, or z drive me crazy. As Sy' says, we are not certain, the statistical sample of the longer passing game, if you want to go by that, is not yet built out under this coaching staff because of design around limitations, full stop.
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football, even though his accuracy numbers have improved, and even though metrics for our WRs aren't as bad as advertised. But they're bad. They're terrible, they're the worstest and we should definitely give Daniel Jones $40M because that's what the market says we need to pay him, and we need to pay him a lot more or we might not finish 3rd again in the NFC East... perish the thought.
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I’ve asked a couple times and maybe I never saw your response but which WR corps in the NFL is definitively worse than the Giants? There’s absolutely no question that the last 4/6 weeks of the season + the Vikings playoff game they stepped up. But they still are what they are - a group low on talent and overall ability, and not a single guy worth of a double team.
I’m not sure. I don’t watch the other teams close enough to have an informed opinion on how their WRs played down the stretch. All I know is down the stretch the Giants WRs played well.
But I’ve posted this a number of times — that’s also a moot point — because the only WRs in the roster right now are Golladay, Hodgins, Robinson, and Collin Johnson.
Golladay will clearly get cut, and Robinson and Johnson are coming off season ending injuries. So the Giants will be making 3-5 acquisitions at WR.
This is why I think it’s important to keep in mind what type of system Daboll and Kafka want to build. And why I won’t be surprised if the investment at WR isn’t high money or high draft pick.
If the Giants burn big powder on the offensive side (in addition to retaining Jones and Barkley) my guess it’s offensive line.
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football, even though his accuracy numbers have improved, and even though metrics for our WRs aren't as bad as advertised. But they're bad. They're terrible, they're the worstest and we should definitely give Daniel Jones $40M because that's what the market says we need to pay him, and we need to pay him a lot more or we might not finish 3rd again in the NFC East... perish the thought.
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I love how when ever you are proven ridiculous and/or wrong you either disregard that post, or bring up some incoherent thought process that is meant to distract from being wrong.
WR receivers initially are gotten through the draft - that is where they come from. That is what you pay a scouting department for. You do not have to buy players at escalated prices until you have a team built and ready for a deep playoff run. And if your scouts are good, you probably don't need to buy players(FA) anyway.
And yes the Giants' WRs are not top shelf players. Hodgins has great hands and is a good route runner - but no speed. Slayton can fly, but has the worst hands on the team. I think James is better than people give him credit for. Point being, Hodgins could not make the Bills off the practice squad, but came the Giants and became a reliable WR. So not good enough for Josh Allen, but plenty good enough for Jones(and the Giants). The Bills 7th WR basically, became the Giants #2 WR and in a sense, Jones #1 target. And as well as Hodgins played for the Giants, he could not get open vs the Eagles. So yes, Jones had relatively inferior talent at WR compared to most teams.
And no, you do not go out and trade for a VG WR that is a year from a big pay day when you are still in the early stages of building a team. You draft WRs and hold them on a rookie contract while your team develops. Yes the Giants need better pass protection and they need ILB that can shut down the run, CBs that can cover one v one, ERs that can apply more pressure on the opposing QB. They need a lot of positions upgraded, And they need to re-sign their en=merging stars(AT and DL).
Nobody thinks Jones is worth $40 mill per. Hell, I don't think Mahomes with worth $45 mill per. I don't set the rates, the NFL teams do. I do think he is in the $30-$35 mill range, because unfortunately, that is what NFL teams pay starting QBs. It is not what we think, it is what Joe Schoen thinks Jones is worth that matters.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
I think that the Chiefs passing game is a viable example of what Daboll wants to run. I asked Sy about Mayer at #25 and he thinks Kincaid would be better(and I guess in the 2nd?) He is rated 3rd TE and CBS lists him as #39 overall, so it is a little before where Giants would be in the 2nd round. Is he worth the #25 pick?? I doubt it.
I think at WR they'll still be looking at a slashing type WR like Tyrek Hill or OBJ. But they definitely need a WR that can stretch the field and keep at least one safety on edge.
We do know that Daboll and Schoen have a plan and that they will look for players that will fit their plan nd are not likely to deviate from it. I do think WanDale was the kind of WR they were looking for and had Toney not self destructed it would have given them two scary guys crossing over the middle.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
This is an interesting suggestion. What I’m curious about is whether the Giants are keying on lighter college TEs with high levels of athleticism and short area burst, maybe in rounds 3-5. It’s interesting that 3 of the teams playing today have high level talent at TE, but also that two of those guys are mid round picks. I’m thinking a sort of rich man’s Cager.
And I’m speaking as someone philosophically opposed to ever picking a TE in the first two rounds.
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
I want Schoen to address areas of concern and if that’s taking additional OL because the guys we have aren’t working out, so be it. We need lots of OL not just starting 5 - we need to be 8 deep to sustain any sort of longevity.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
I don’t think Mayer lasts, but he’d be a home run pick.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Kelce allows the Chiefs to come out in 12 personnel and adjust based on the defensive look. He moved or lined up in the slot 30% of the time.
Mayer has that type of profile. I could see the Giants signing a midtier outside WR, re-signing James, and drafting a TE early.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct.
Just like Evan Neal still has trouble with steps, punch and positioning.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing.
pot meet kettle..
The historical evidence shows that TE is an incredibly
Difficult position to scout. That’s why players like Kittles are around in the 5th round. And why a generational prospect like Kyle Pitts doesn’t seem to be helping his team build to anything. Did you know no TE drafted higher than the 3rd round has been named to the postseason All Pro teams since 2019? Jimmy Graham - 3rd rounder. Bavaro - 4th. Jason Witten - 3rd. Antonio Gates - UDFA.
I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
I don’t see it with Mayer in terms of upside impact
And I’m not anti-ND but I think he’s vastly overrated. When I saw Kincaid in couple games this year I was very impressed and see real NFL projection there.
i think jones has been accurate since his first preseason game
and i guess enough other people did that he got the nickname danny dimes. i know it was preseason but he went like 28/30 or something like that. his general accuracy and steady improvement increasing his cmp% and decreasing his int% is something taken for granted amiss the more macro offensive ineffectiveness pre-daboll.
RE: The historical evidence shows that TE is an incredibly
Difficult position to scout. That’s why players like Kittles are around in the 5th round. And why a generational prospect like Kyle Pitts doesn’t seem to be helping his team build to anything. Did you know no TE drafted higher than the 3rd round has been named to the postseason All Pro teams since 2019? Jimmy Graham - 3rd rounder. Bavaro - 4th. Jason Witten - 3rd. Antonio Gates - UDFA.
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
The tight end position, to truly find one that can do it all is like finding a unicorn.
Not often do you have a player who can be a serious receiving weapon and also have the ability to block at the same time.
I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
In the 20s I would agree. Problem is those types don’t last, there’s always someone out there ready and willing to take them top 10. At that price it’s a huge dice roll.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Trent Dilfer had an all=time great defense behind hom.
So, yes, if Giants could acquire five all-pros on defense, they could win it all with DJ
I want Schoen to address areas of concern and if that’s taking additional OL because the guys we have aren’t working out, so be it. We need lots of OL not just starting 5 - we need to be 8 deep to sustain any sort of longevity.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
Not sure Schoen is either (though more second guessing than guilt), prolly more pragmatic, as you suggest, like he (and Daboll) is being with Jones.
RE: RE: RE: I’m 100% on board with beefing up the OL
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct....
If you want to tag that to your lexicon, ok, I don't. But, section, fwiw I don't recall at all 'issues in pass pro were known', pre-draft. The issue seemed to become an emphasis only as camp wore on iirc
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
When a QB has guys that he can trust more because they are higher level targets confidence in them goes up and everything also goes up accordingly. Tight window throws are much higher pressure throws and the worse the receiver, the smaller the success rate and the finer the throw has to be. All these things play a role. Also DJs unwillingness sometimes to make a throw may have to do woth the lack of the quality of the target as well. A PS guy like Hodgins coming in and making such an impact so quickly is also an indictment on what he was throwing to beforehand too.
If high on target and completion rate are symptoms of good route running (I think that’s a good guess) — and the primary pass catchers had both good catch and YAC rates — seems like the system worked.
They ran good routes and caught the ball well.
The Giants had a comedy of injuries at the pass catching positions between Golladay, Johnson, Shepard, Robinson, and Bellinger. Hats off to Jones and the no name group for turning it around.
The real bad guy in this play is the incontrovertibly bad pass protection. If you want to look for a reason the Giants didn’t throw the ball much at all, and didn’t throw the ball deep much it all, I’d look that way.
Jones' accuracy improved a lot but not to "most accurate" in NFL
This is just one reason why the game-manager/Alex Smith comparisons just won't hunt. He was far from Captain Checkdown. Also, the one guy who had the straight line speed to take the top of a defense (Slayton) has a reputation for not-so-sure hands.
If we upgrade the WR corps with some real horses this offseason, Jones could easily top the league in completion percentage next season.
Doesn’t even try for big plays, lol, you guys are funny, wrong, but funny.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
He’s nothing like Alex Smith who no matter who is WRs were couldn’t compete a pass past 10 yards. Jones is a levels better passer.
I don’t think Alex smith is an accurate comparison for several reasons but you do realize if a punt doesn’t go off a player on his teams leg there’s at least a chance the 49ers play in the 2011 Super Bowl? I don’t mean to take anything away from the giants win that day but Alex smith was exceedingly close to taking a team to the Super Bowl.
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He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
This, it’s like saying it’s the jockeys fault the horse isn’t faster. Have to bring in some receivers that can get separation one on one and also stretch the field.
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In comment 16016929 ElitoCanton said:
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He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Yea Richie James was just waiting to pop 50 yd TDs all day and DJ held him back.
This, it’s like saying it’s the jockeys fault the horse isn’t faster. Have to bring in some receivers that can get separation one on one and also stretch the field.
I just don't get how anyone can think his performance is not at least somewhat tied to the lack of the quality of the WRs. Not to mention pass pro that was horrible a good part of the year.
He came up in bright spots! ( other than those two fumbles in Seattle) but if you saw the Giants had any chance at winning that game you are on drugs anyway
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
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but yeah, good comparison.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
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He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Just need to match him with a historically-good defense.
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In comment 16017002 UConn4523 said:
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but yeah, good comparison.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
Lol. Ok. Doubtful.
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but yeah, good comparison.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
Haha.
Jones was near the bottom in air yards. He was close to the bottom in PFF big time throws. If you don't see the connection between air yards and completion pct I can't help you. The physical world must be a mystery to you.
Trying to compare Jones to another QB is just another way to express your bias.
So if you don't like DJ you compare him To the bad versions of Smith, Tannehill, etc.
Also I find it amazing how some will not accept stats that do not fit their narrative. They will go to extremes to attempt to explain why the stats are flawed.
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In comment 16017007 Producer said:
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In comment 16017002 UConn4523 said:
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but yeah, good comparison.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
Guess the point went right over your head then. Sorry.
Lol. Ok. Doubtful.
Why if I may ask
Well according to this story, he was. Don't know who might actually be, but what this story and others tells me is that contrary to what many seem to be saying, Jones had a good season, not just a 3 game stretch.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
JFC! Who should have been a try for a “big play”?
Slayton? The guy who double caught every pass? Except for the ones he dropped?
Hodkins? He’s a possession receiver.
Sills? Lol!
Who else is going to catch a deep ball?!
Man, the stupidity is really something around here.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
Of course he was. He had absolute shit wrt deep ball.
Give him Williams and allen, like Hebert had? His numbers would have been higher. Just slightly.
🙄
It takes 2 to tango..the list of big play receivers on giants in 2022 begins and ends with Darius Slayton…fans can’t be this naive. You can’t trot out jags at wr and expect the quarterback to make the WRs consistently beat corners deep.
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In comment 16017002 UConn4523 said:
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but yeah, good comparison.
Hmmmm if DJ had Chase Higgins Boyd and Hurst...instead of Slayton James and Hodgins for half a year...yeah his numbers would only be marginally better /sarcasm.
Haha.
Jones was near the bottom in air yards. He was close to the bottom in PFF big time throws. If you don't see the connection between air yards and completion pct I can't help you. The physical world must be a mystery to you.
This is crazy Guys! Who gives a crap about air yards? That’s on the QB? No it’s on protection and WR’s who can separate down field. Like it or not he is now a top 10 QB (or at least proved he had a season of a top 10 qB). With his age arguably higher. So get off your high horse knocking the kid day in and day out. Yea you are more of a talent evaluator than our own coach and GM and your analytics (that only you understand) are more comprehensive than QBR.
I don't think your statement paints the full picture here. Our OL did not play great and he did not have anyone to throw it to for a big play.
A blanket statement like this is inaccurate and you cannot say anything until he has a true WR1, a better OL and we have to see what he does (finally) in year 2 with the same OFC.
Burrow has Tee Higgins and Chase!! We have, who again??
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but yeah, good comparison.
Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing. I keep wondering if you are truly this illogical, or if you're just stubborn. I think it's probably the latter, but you're repeated misfires have me wondering.
LOL. Pot meet kettle.
And, (big one Producer), if you cannot comprehend the difference between Higgins, Chase and the Bengals TE vs Slayton, Hodgins(for only 1/2 year) and Bellinger then you should not be posting on a QB thread. Besides the fact that the Giants only got this offense this year while the Bengals were in theirs for 3 seasons. Makes a huge difference when the WRs know where they are supposed to be and the QB can trust that. (See Eli and Victor Cruz)
Yes, Jones sometimes does not make the correct reads quickly and that is his bugaboo. Can he fix that? We do not know. But the physical tools are more than good enough to play the game. Despite what some naysayers think, if Daboll and Schoen did not think Jones was worth keeping(for a reasonable contract), he would be gone. It is clear that Daboll believes Jones can run his offense and that is all that we fans need to know or care about. Just because Jones did not make numerous bombs this year does not mean he cannot. He obviously did it with success his rookie year and his arm is better now than what it was then. Get him a couple deep threat WRs that can actually catch the ball and we likely see it again.
He isn't and never will be Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Joe Burrow. Not many QBs are at that level. No amount of coaching can get that out of him. But he does not have to be them. Brian Daboll will design an offense that Jones can be effective in and that is not a denigration. Successful QBs are placed in an offense that they can execute repeatedly. He is also not a finished product. I am fairly certain that Daboll can get more out of him and I'd bet that Daboll and Schoen believe there is more or they wouldn't be trying to keep him.
Did you miss the fact that we have zero NFL caliber WRs?
We all know he chucks it up for grabs a multiple times a game to Chase which skews the distribution up quite a bit - throwing two 40-yard bombs in 40 passes inflated his AIY an full yard compared to DJ throwing maybe two 20-yarders, while only nominally acting compaction %. Same goes for Herbert.
This means that most of DJs throws are riskier. And, as every reasonable Giants fan would concede, our wrs don’t give DJ a large passing window to work with.
So this is clear and objective data, not just logic, which is also good. Players who have a high percentage of throws that are shorter area, within 5 yards where the league comp pct in 2021 was between 75% and 70%, will have an advantage in accumulating a higher completion percentage than QBs with a much lower distribution of shorter throws to intermediate throws.
This applies to Jones and the pass catchers. Look up any thread from Eric in Li. There are a number of data points showing a big turn around in the effectiveness of the WRs in the home stretch.
I know that doesn’t support the tired view that Jones had it the worstest, but it’s true.
What remains to be seen is if the Giants plan on investing in a short strike, high YAC, high efficiency passing game. That’s the type of passing game KC has and Kafka came from. Look at Mahomes air yards to YAC ratio. Jones is about 1:1, Mahomes is like 1:1.5.
More than anything though, the Giants issue is pass pro. No matter how much they invest in better pedigree pass targets, they won’t blossom into brand names other teams have ifJones doesn’t have the time and confidence to let bigger players develop.
That’s where the problem unequivocally lies.
In order words, if our receiving corps went from an F to a C, it’s because they all worked hard, the remainder of the league is at a C+ or better in the talent department.
Furthermore I think the big 4 QBs can make it work but the other 25+ QBs won’t be able to overcome the limitations of this kind of crew, Jones included. I think our ceiling with this offense has hit its limit, and we desperately need an injection of talent.
Plenty to do this offseason and next to continue to rebuild this team.
Just hope Schoen doesn't give away all our dollar resources on guys that just happen to be very good NYG players but not as good NFL players.
I don’t think there’s a perfect 1-1 relationship between short passing game and accuracy. But it’s pretty logical it’s easier to be accurate short than long.
And frankly the Giants simply didn’t throw ball deep. Jones was 30th in the NFL in attempts over 20 yards.
The most interesting post on this thread: Aside from the direct Herbert-Jones comps, interesting in and of themselves. As to the language I bolded, yes, one would think logical. Yet, and I don't have stats to support this, but in the case of Eli over the years, for example, my eyes told me his short throws, screens, short crossing patterns (often behind the receiver (esp. l-to-r iirc) displayed inordinate lack of accuracy relative to his longer passes, post and sideline patterns. I throw this out there by way of suggesting that individual passers' inherent talents may not be a function, simply, of the distance of passes thrown but specific to that QB's arm talent/hand-eye processing/accuracy of execution.
That's in part why these proclamations that Jones is Tannehill or he is Cousins but not x, y, or z drive me crazy. As Sy' says, we are not certain, the statistical sample of the longer passing game, if you want to go by that, is not yet built out under this coaching staff because of design around limitations, full stop.
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I’m not sure. I don’t watch the other teams close enough to have an informed opinion on how their WRs played down the stretch. All I know is down the stretch the Giants WRs played well.
But I’ve posted this a number of times — that’s also a moot point — because the only WRs in the roster right now are Golladay, Hodgins, Robinson, and Collin Johnson.
Golladay will clearly get cut, and Robinson and Johnson are coming off season ending injuries. So the Giants will be making 3-5 acquisitions at WR.
This is why I think it’s important to keep in mind what type of system Daboll and Kafka want to build. And why I won’t be surprised if the investment at WR isn’t high money or high draft pick.
If the Giants burn big powder on the offensive side (in addition to retaining Jones and Barkley) my guess it’s offensive line.
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I love how when ever you are proven ridiculous and/or wrong you either disregard that post, or bring up some incoherent thought process that is meant to distract from being wrong.
WR receivers initially are gotten through the draft - that is where they come from. That is what you pay a scouting department for. You do not have to buy players at escalated prices until you have a team built and ready for a deep playoff run. And if your scouts are good, you probably don't need to buy players(FA) anyway.
And yes the Giants' WRs are not top shelf players. Hodgins has great hands and is a good route runner - but no speed. Slayton can fly, but has the worst hands on the team. I think James is better than people give him credit for. Point being, Hodgins could not make the Bills off the practice squad, but came the Giants and became a reliable WR. So not good enough for Josh Allen, but plenty good enough for Jones(and the Giants). The Bills 7th WR basically, became the Giants #2 WR and in a sense, Jones #1 target. And as well as Hodgins played for the Giants, he could not get open vs the Eagles. So yes, Jones had relatively inferior talent at WR compared to most teams.
And no, you do not go out and trade for a VG WR that is a year from a big pay day when you are still in the early stages of building a team. You draft WRs and hold them on a rookie contract while your team develops. Yes the Giants need better pass protection and they need ILB that can shut down the run, CBs that can cover one v one, ERs that can apply more pressure on the opposing QB. They need a lot of positions upgraded, And they need to re-sign their en=merging stars(AT and DL).
Nobody thinks Jones is worth $40 mill per. Hell, I don't think Mahomes with worth $45 mill per. I don't set the rates, the NFL teams do. I do think he is in the $30-$35 mill range, because unfortunately, that is what NFL teams pay starting QBs. It is not what we think, it is what Joe Schoen thinks Jones is worth that matters.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
I think that the Chiefs passing game is a viable example of what Daboll wants to run. I asked Sy about Mayer at #25 and he thinks Kincaid would be better(and I guess in the 2nd?) He is rated 3rd TE and CBS lists him as #39 overall, so it is a little before where Giants would be in the 2nd round. Is he worth the #25 pick?? I doubt it.
I think at WR they'll still be looking at a slashing type WR like Tyrek Hill or OBJ. But they definitely need a WR that can stretch the field and keep at least one safety on edge.
We do know that Daboll and Schoen have a plan and that they will look for players that will fit their plan nd are not likely to deviate from it. I do think WanDale was the kind of WR they were looking for and had Toney not self destructed it would have given them two scary guys crossing over the middle.
This is an interesting suggestion. What I’m curious about is whether the Giants are keying on lighter college TEs with high levels of athleticism and short area burst, maybe in rounds 3-5. It’s interesting that 3 of the teams playing today have high level talent at TE, but also that two of those guys are mid round picks. I’m thinking a sort of rich man’s Cager.
And I’m speaking as someone philosophically opposed to ever picking a TE in the first two rounds.
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and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Kelce allows the Chiefs to come out in 12 personnel and adjust based on the defensive look. He moved or lined up in the slot 30% of the time.
Mayer has that type of profile. I could see the Giants signing a midtier outside WR, re-signing James, and drafting a TE early.
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Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct.
Just like Evan Neal still has trouble with steps, punch and positioning.
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but yeah, good comparison.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing.
pot meet kettle..
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
The tight end position, to truly find one that can do it all is like finding a unicorn.
Not often do you have a player who can be a serious receiving weapon and also have the ability to block at the same time.
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I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
In the 20s I would agree. Problem is those types don’t last, there’s always someone out there ready and willing to take them top 10. At that price it’s a huge dice roll.
Giants gameplan was to give Jones throws he could make. That was how Daboll "fixed" him.
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He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Trent Dilfer had an all=time great defense behind hom.
So, yes, if Giants could acquire five all-pros on defense, they could win it all with DJ
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
Not sure Schoen is either (though more second guessing than guilt), prolly more pragmatic, as you suggest, like he (and Daboll) is being with Jones.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct....
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
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they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
When a QB has guys that he can trust more because they are higher level targets confidence in them goes up and everything also goes up accordingly. Tight window throws are much higher pressure throws and the worse the receiver, the smaller the success rate and the finer the throw has to be. All these things play a role. Also DJs unwillingness sometimes to make a throw may have to do woth the lack of the quality of the target as well. A PS guy like Hodgins coming in and making such an impact so quickly is also an indictment on what he was throwing to beforehand too.
They ran good routes and caught the ball well.
The Giants had a comedy of injuries at the pass catching positions between Golladay, Johnson, Shepard, Robinson, and Bellinger. Hats off to Jones and the no name group for turning it around.
The real bad guy in this play is the incontrovertibly bad pass protection. If you want to look for a reason the Giants didn’t throw the ball much at all, and didn’t throw the ball deep much it all, I’d look that way.