and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football, even though his accuracy numbers have improved, and even though metrics for our WRs aren't as bad as advertised. But they're bad. They're terrible, they're the worstest and we should definitely give Daniel Jones $40M because that's what the market says we need to pay him, and we need to pay him a lot more or we might not finish 3rd again in the NFC East... perish the thought.
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I love how when ever you are proven ridiculous and/or wrong you either disregard that post, or bring up some incoherent thought process that is meant to distract from being wrong.
WR receivers initially are gotten through the draft - that is where they come from. That is what you pay a scouting department for. You do not have to buy players at escalated prices until you have a team built and ready for a deep playoff run. And if your scouts are good, you probably don't need to buy players(FA) anyway.
And yes the Giants' WRs are not top shelf players. Hodgins has great hands and is a good route runner - but no speed. Slayton can fly, but has the worst hands on the team. I think James is better than people give him credit for. Point being, Hodgins could not make the Bills off the practice squad, but came the Giants and became a reliable WR. So not good enough for Josh Allen, but plenty good enough for Jones(and the Giants). The Bills 7th WR basically, became the Giants #2 WR and in a sense, Jones #1 target. And as well as Hodgins played for the Giants, he could not get open vs the Eagles. So yes, Jones had relatively inferior talent at WR compared to most teams.
And no, you do not go out and trade for a VG WR that is a year from a big pay day when you are still in the early stages of building a team. You draft WRs and hold them on a rookie contract while your team develops. Yes the Giants need better pass protection and they need ILB that can shut down the run, CBs that can cover one v one, ERs that can apply more pressure on the opposing QB. They need a lot of positions upgraded, And they need to re-sign their en=merging stars(AT and DL).
Nobody thinks Jones is worth $40 mill per. Hell, I don't think Mahomes with worth $45 mill per. I don't set the rates, the NFL teams do. I do think he is in the $30-$35 mill range, because unfortunately, that is what NFL teams pay starting QBs. It is not what we think, it is what Joe Schoen thinks Jones is worth that matters.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
I think that the Chiefs passing game is a viable example of what Daboll wants to run. I asked Sy about Mayer at #25 and he thinks Kincaid would be better(and I guess in the 2nd?) He is rated 3rd TE and CBS lists him as #39 overall, so it is a little before where Giants would be in the 2nd round. Is he worth the #25 pick?? I doubt it.
I think at WR they'll still be looking at a slashing type WR like Tyrek Hill or OBJ. But they definitely need a WR that can stretch the field and keep at least one safety on edge.
We do know that Daboll and Schoen have a plan and that they will look for players that will fit their plan nd are not likely to deviate from it. I do think WanDale was the kind of WR they were looking for and had Toney not self destructed it would have given them two scary guys crossing over the middle.
I also wonder if the Giants take a big swing in the passing game if it won’t be at TE. Hell, the Chiefs traded an All Pro talent at WR and actually got better on offense.
This is an interesting suggestion. What I’m curious about is whether the Giants are keying on lighter college TEs with high levels of athleticism and short area burst, maybe in rounds 3-5. It’s interesting that 3 of the teams playing today have high level talent at TE, but also that two of those guys are mid round picks. I’m thinking a sort of rich man’s Cager.
And I’m speaking as someone philosophically opposed to ever picking a TE in the first two rounds.
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
I want Schoen to address areas of concern and if that’s taking additional OL because the guys we have aren’t working out, so be it. We need lots of OL not just starting 5 - we need to be 8 deep to sustain any sort of longevity.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
I don’t think Mayer lasts, but he’d be a home run pick.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Kelce allows the Chiefs to come out in 12 personnel and adjust based on the defensive look. He moved or lined up in the slot 30% of the time.
Mayer has that type of profile. I could see the Giants signing a midtier outside WR, re-signing James, and drafting a TE early.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct.
Just like Evan Neal still has trouble with steps, punch and positioning.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing.
pot meet kettle..
The historical evidence shows that TE is an incredibly
Difficult position to scout. That’s why players like Kittles are around in the 5th round. And why a generational prospect like Kyle Pitts doesn’t seem to be helping his team build to anything. Did you know no TE drafted higher than the 3rd round has been named to the postseason All Pro teams since 2019? Jimmy Graham - 3rd rounder. Bavaro - 4th. Jason Witten - 3rd. Antonio Gates - UDFA.
I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
I don’t see it with Mayer in terms of upside impact
And I’m not anti-ND but I think he’s vastly overrated. When I saw Kincaid in couple games this year I was very impressed and see real NFL projection there.
i think jones has been accurate since his first preseason game
and i guess enough other people did that he got the nickname danny dimes. i know it was preseason but he went like 28/30 or something like that. his general accuracy and steady improvement increasing his cmp% and decreasing his int% is something taken for granted amiss the more macro offensive ineffectiveness pre-daboll.
RE: The historical evidence shows that TE is an incredibly
Difficult position to scout. That’s why players like Kittles are around in the 5th round. And why a generational prospect like Kyle Pitts doesn’t seem to be helping his team build to anything. Did you know no TE drafted higher than the 3rd round has been named to the postseason All Pro teams since 2019? Jimmy Graham - 3rd rounder. Bavaro - 4th. Jason Witten - 3rd. Antonio Gates - UDFA.
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
The tight end position, to truly find one that can do it all is like finding a unicorn.
Not often do you have a player who can be a serious receiving weapon and also have the ability to block at the same time.
I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
In the 20s I would agree. Problem is those types don’t last, there’s always someone out there ready and willing to take them top 10. At that price it’s a huge dice roll.
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Trent Dilfer had an all=time great defense behind hom.
So, yes, if Giants could acquire five all-pros on defense, they could win it all with DJ
I want Schoen to address areas of concern and if that’s taking additional OL because the guys we have aren’t working out, so be it. We need lots of OL not just starting 5 - we need to be 8 deep to sustain any sort of longevity.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
Not sure Schoen is either (though more second guessing than guilt), prolly more pragmatic, as you suggest, like he (and Daboll) is being with Jones.
RE: RE: RE: I’m 100% on board with beefing up the OL
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct....
If you want to tag that to your lexicon, ok, I don't. But, section, fwiw I don't recall at all 'issues in pass pro were known', pre-draft. The issue seemed to become an emphasis only as camp wore on iirc
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
When a QB has guys that he can trust more because they are higher level targets confidence in them goes up and everything also goes up accordingly. Tight window throws are much higher pressure throws and the worse the receiver, the smaller the success rate and the finer the throw has to be. All these things play a role. Also DJs unwillingness sometimes to make a throw may have to do woth the lack of the quality of the target as well. A PS guy like Hodgins coming in and making such an impact so quickly is also an indictment on what he was throwing to beforehand too.
If high on target and completion rate are symptoms of good route running (I think that’s a good guess) — and the primary pass catchers had both good catch and YAC rates — seems like the system worked.
They ran good routes and caught the ball well.
The Giants had a comedy of injuries at the pass catching positions between Golladay, Johnson, Shepard, Robinson, and Bellinger. Hats off to Jones and the no name group for turning it around.
The real bad guy in this play is the incontrovertibly bad pass protection. If you want to look for a reason the Giants didn’t throw the ball much at all, and didn’t throw the ball deep much it all, I’d look that way.
Jones' accuracy improved a lot but not to "most accurate" in NFL
I heard our wide receivers were so bad Daniel Jones was unable to find a breakfast cereal that was both tasty AND nutritious.
We must get him better receivers. But definitely NOT Brandon Aiyuk or Tee Higgins. We don't want to spend the money or the all-important draft capital which can get us the Kadarius Toneys and Deandre Bakers, who we need so desperately. Better to scout middle school athletes now and maybe by the start of the next decade the rebuild will be complete and we can start to compete for 2nd place in the NFC East. Draft capital is definitely more important than 7 years.
I love how when ever you are proven ridiculous and/or wrong you either disregard that post, or bring up some incoherent thought process that is meant to distract from being wrong.
WR receivers initially are gotten through the draft - that is where they come from. That is what you pay a scouting department for. You do not have to buy players at escalated prices until you have a team built and ready for a deep playoff run. And if your scouts are good, you probably don't need to buy players(FA) anyway.
And yes the Giants' WRs are not top shelf players. Hodgins has great hands and is a good route runner - but no speed. Slayton can fly, but has the worst hands on the team. I think James is better than people give him credit for. Point being, Hodgins could not make the Bills off the practice squad, but came the Giants and became a reliable WR. So not good enough for Josh Allen, but plenty good enough for Jones(and the Giants). The Bills 7th WR basically, became the Giants #2 WR and in a sense, Jones #1 target. And as well as Hodgins played for the Giants, he could not get open vs the Eagles. So yes, Jones had relatively inferior talent at WR compared to most teams.
And no, you do not go out and trade for a VG WR that is a year from a big pay day when you are still in the early stages of building a team. You draft WRs and hold them on a rookie contract while your team develops. Yes the Giants need better pass protection and they need ILB that can shut down the run, CBs that can cover one v one, ERs that can apply more pressure on the opposing QB. They need a lot of positions upgraded, And they need to re-sign their en=merging stars(AT and DL).
Nobody thinks Jones is worth $40 mill per. Hell, I don't think Mahomes with worth $45 mill per. I don't set the rates, the NFL teams do. I do think he is in the $30-$35 mill range, because unfortunately, that is what NFL teams pay starting QBs. It is not what we think, it is what Joe Schoen thinks Jones is worth that matters.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
I think that the Chiefs passing game is a viable example of what Daboll wants to run. I asked Sy about Mayer at #25 and he thinks Kincaid would be better(and I guess in the 2nd?) He is rated 3rd TE and CBS lists him as #39 overall, so it is a little before where Giants would be in the 2nd round. Is he worth the #25 pick?? I doubt it.
I think at WR they'll still be looking at a slashing type WR like Tyrek Hill or OBJ. But they definitely need a WR that can stretch the field and keep at least one safety on edge.
We do know that Daboll and Schoen have a plan and that they will look for players that will fit their plan nd are not likely to deviate from it. I do think WanDale was the kind of WR they were looking for and had Toney not self destructed it would have given them two scary guys crossing over the middle.
This is an interesting suggestion. What I’m curious about is whether the Giants are keying on lighter college TEs with high levels of athleticism and short area burst, maybe in rounds 3-5. It’s interesting that 3 of the teams playing today have high level talent at TE, but also that two of those guys are mid round picks. I’m thinking a sort of rich man’s Cager.
And I’m speaking as someone philosophically opposed to ever picking a TE in the first two rounds.
Quote:
and chipping away at increasing WR talent over time. We need both but the former is harder with a longer road. But eventually we need Atleast 1 dynamic weapon in the passing game.
And yet that is where we come up against Schoen's self scouting on the '22 draft, having selected Neal, Ezeudu, and McKeithan. If he goes OL in the draft, is he implicitly acknowledging only the INC's or maybe errors in selection? Ezeudu is the biggest conundrum here, highest pick after Neal and apparently unable to handle complexities of pass pro.
There is something to be said for how his board shakes out in '23 and his assessment of whether the passing game can/should project more diversity.
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Kelce allows the Chiefs to come out in 12 personnel and adjust based on the defensive look. He moved or lined up in the slot 30% of the time.
Mayer has that type of profile. I could see the Giants signing a midtier outside WR, re-signing James, and drafting a TE early.
Quote:
Who said Ezeudu couldn't handle "complexities" pass pro? He had issues with his technique, IIRC.
Not as such, but why is 'technique' outside the scope of complexity? Daboll and Kafka sat him down pretty quickly with his issues in pass pro, and this came before iirc the neck injury problem.
There is a huge difference. Yours infers he doesn't have the smarts(complexities) and the other(technique) implies physical limitation because he gets his steps wrong, is off balance, delivers his punch incorrectly, etc.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct.
Just like Evan Neal still has trouble with steps, punch and positioning.
Quote:
but yeah, good comparison.
Silly reply that doesn't address the point. If you replace the 4 yard attempts with 10, 15 and 20 yard attempts the accuracy numbers go down. Rather than acknowledge an obvious reality you choose to spoil for a fight, which seems to be your thing.
pot meet kettle..
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
No TEs in rounds 1 and 2.
The tight end position, to truly find one that can do it all is like finding a unicorn.
Not often do you have a player who can be a serious receiving weapon and also have the ability to block at the same time.
Quote:
I’d trust the process if we went that route but it would be the route that would make me the most cautious.
I think teams got spooked from the 2017 draft and stopped drafting TEs early. I think only 3 TEs were drafted in the first round since. Hockenson, Pitts, and I can’t think of who else, but I read that somewhere.
All things equal, I’d take Hockenson and Pitts as first round values, especially in the 20s.
In the 20s I would agree. Problem is those types don’t last, there’s always someone out there ready and willing to take them top 10. At that price it’s a huge dice roll.
Giants gameplan was to give Jones throws he could make. That was how Daboll "fixed" him.
Quote:
He is accurate and efficient. But he doesn't even try for big plays. You can be a playoff team with a guy like him. But you aren't going to win titles.
Dos the name Trent Dilfer occur to anyone? And Jones is WAY better than Dilfer. This poster is both ignorant and uninformed.
Trent Dilfer had an all=time great defense behind hom.
So, yes, if Giants could acquire five all-pros on defense, they could win it all with DJ
But the rookies got injured and struggled, it happens. Not all that worried about the scouting or the process.
Not sure Schoen is either (though more second guessing than guilt), prolly more pragmatic, as you suggest, like he (and Daboll) is being with Jones.
His issues in pass pro were known, and it was known it would take until late in the season or even through the offseason to correct....
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
Quote:
they not only affect TD totals and yardage totals, but they literally make Jones a less accurate thrower of the football
Correct.
Route consistency will directly effect accuracy.
When a QB has guys that he can trust more because they are higher level targets confidence in them goes up and everything also goes up accordingly. Tight window throws are much higher pressure throws and the worse the receiver, the smaller the success rate and the finer the throw has to be. All these things play a role. Also DJs unwillingness sometimes to make a throw may have to do woth the lack of the quality of the target as well. A PS guy like Hodgins coming in and making such an impact so quickly is also an indictment on what he was throwing to beforehand too.
They ran good routes and caught the ball well.
The Giants had a comedy of injuries at the pass catching positions between Golladay, Johnson, Shepard, Robinson, and Bellinger. Hats off to Jones and the no name group for turning it around.
The real bad guy in this play is the incontrovertibly bad pass protection. If you want to look for a reason the Giants didn’t throw the ball much at all, and didn’t throw the ball deep much it all, I’d look that way.