In the second half of Bengals vs. Chiefs, the KC receiving corps was truly decimated and were down to the last options on their depth chart. At the same time, Mahomes was looking very "non-Mahomes". He spent longer surveying the field, was pressured and was dumping off passes into the flat to the RB's. I'm sure if he were able, we would have seen him scrambling / running more. It was during this time, Romo (who really should calm down during broadcasts) commented that the wideouts weren't "getting separation".
Sound familiar? Clearly, the Bengals were covering Kelce like a blanket and with no one else to throw to downfield, Mahomes was looking very ordinary / harassed.
This was no revelation (I know I'm being Captain Obvious), but it did highlight that the passing game is seriously degraded by having wide receivers who couldn't get open, even with a top line QB. For me, it made the coaching / scheming by the Giants during the year that much more impressive. It's not just the OL or the QB -- with the group of WRs we had, this season was even more impressive.
I know people on BBI will comment that this point was made during the season, but to see how this deficiency affected someone as talented as Mahomes was an eye opener. Even he couldn't elevate the play of lower level receivers.
I miss Madden.
Yup, was thinking the same thing.
It's a shame the networks don't trust us to evaluate the plays on our own.
DJ is watching going “wait, there’s another option *besides* playing with street FAs and backups?”
There is something to be said for losing a player in game for sure, but compared to the NYG wr corps these 2 AFC teams are loaded at WR.
He was cool to watch in 2017 now he just doesn't shut the hell up.
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
It’s funny when you look at the Titans because they ponied up all that cash for Henry, but refused to pay AJ Brown. Look how that worked out, their GM got canned if I remember correctly. Now they have a RB who is starting to get nicked up now after carrying the ball a million times over the last five years and no real threat in the passing game.
/sarcasm off
/sarcasm off
Yeah, it has amazed me all season (and before) how some here just dismissed the importance of receiver talent to the passing game, putting all of it on the QB. Yup, if the QB is good enough, the receivers don't matter.
I think the small, but very loud minority who argue against the importance of having playmaking WRs are doing so BECAUSE of the Jones debate.
It helps their argument (in their minds) to pooh pooh the idea that Jones is elevating a group of bottom tier WRs and that he would do better (more deep balls, more passing TDs, yards, etc.) if/when he got more talented WRs (like all the other QBs in the playoffs have).
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
Revisionist history? Come on, Manning didn't "take off" when the Giants got Burress. It was Manning's second year, after starting 7 games his first year. And, by the way, he had Barber, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Shiancoe in 2004. And in 2005, when he "took off", he had 24 TDs and 17 INTs. His completion percent was 52.8 percent. His rating was 76. He threw for 3,700 yards in 16 games (compared to Jones' rookie year, when in 12 starts, he threw for 3,000, and had 24 TDs and 12 INTs.)
In 2006, Manning had 24 TDs and 18 INTs, threw for 3,200 yards, with a rating of 77, in 2007, and in 2007 he had 23 TDs and 20 INTs with 3,300 yards and a rating of 74. He didn't top 60 percent completions until 2008 (60.3). He didn't top Jones' worst rating until 2008, or Jones' best two ratings until 2009.
How about we get Jones Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey, Shiancoe and Barber, not to mention Snee, O'Hara and Diehl, before we worry about getting him a Burress.
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Putting aside the Jones debate, we should not have to argue the importance of having playmaking WRs.
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
Revisionist history? Come on, Manning didn't "take off" when the Giants got Burress. It was Manning's second year, after starting 7 games his first year. And, by the way, he had Barber, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Shiancoe in 2004. And in 2005, when he "took off", he had 24 TDs and 17 INTs. His completion percent was 52.8 percent. His rating was 76. He threw for 3,700 yards in 16 games (compared to Jones' rookie year, when in 12 starts, he threw for 3,000, and had 24 TDs and 12 INTs.)
In 2006, Manning had 24 TDs and 18 INTs, threw for 3,200 yards, with a rating of 77, in 2007, and in 2007 he had 23 TDs and 20 INTs with 3,300 yards and a rating of 74. He didn't top 60 percent completions until 2008 (60.3). He didn't top Jones' worst rating until 2008, or Jones' best two ratings until 2009.
How about we get Jones Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey, Shiancoe and Barber, not to mention Snee, O'Hara and Diehl, before we worry about getting him a Burress.
this may be a hot take but the nyg PASSING offense didnt take off until smith/manningham/nicks post-burress in 2009. that group fit gillbride's option route system almost perfectly and gave eli a diversity of weapons that kept defenses off balance (plus they had the OL and a good running game). That offense hit it's peak with Cruz breaking out in 2011.
shockey seemingly hurt eli more than he helped those first few years because they were never on the same page and he was a squeaky wheel. i dont think it was a coincidence eli took off after shockey left the lineup (which is why he then got traded).
unlike shockey, plax was a positive, but he was also a weird #1 WR. kind of like the nba he was an isolation player. when he was beating his guy like sheldon brown or al harris he could dominate. but he wasnt really a traditional route runner. for his career his catch rate was only about 50% and his ypc was 15. he was a big play threat who made a lot of chunk plays but not the kind of reliable #1 wr like kupp or jefferson (or even obj).
in the SB year plax only had 70 catches on 141 targets. that's only 13 more catches than richie james had this year on exactly half as many targets (70). but 12 of his 70 catches were tds which is pretty amazing. he was only catching 4 balls per game, but almost 1 of them was in the end zone.
Yesterday was a very tight game throughout. So, Mahomes probably made a decision that he was going to dial it back and only make a throw downfield when there was clear separation with the replacements. In other words, he took a more conservative approach and managed the risk.
I have absolutely NO doubt that if Mahomes had more reps with the replacements he would take more risks. Easily. That's Mahomes' nature.
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Putting aside the Jones debate, we should not have to argue the importance of having playmaking WRs.
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
Revisionist history? Come on, Manning didn't "take off" when the Giants got Burress. It was Manning's second year, after starting 7 games his first year. And, by the way, he had Barber, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Shiancoe in 2004. And in 2005, when he "took off", he had 24 TDs and 17 INTs. His completion percent was 52.8 percent. His rating was 76. He threw for 3,700 yards in 16 games (compared to Jones' rookie year, when in 12 starts, he threw for 3,000, and had 24 TDs and 12 INTs.)
In 2006, Manning had 24 TDs and 18 INTs, threw for 3,200 yards, with a rating of 77, in 2007, and in 2007 he had 23 TDs and 20 INTs with 3,300 yards and a rating of 74. He didn't top 60 percent completions until 2008 (60.3). He didn't top Jones' worst rating until 2008, or Jones' best two ratings until 2009.
How about we get Jones Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey, Shiancoe and Barber, not to mention Snee, O'Hara and Diehl, before we worry about getting him a Burress.
K2 - you had me until Schiancoe. I have a hard time listing Schiancoe right next to Barber, Shockey, Toomer, and Burress - LOL
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In comment 16019551 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Putting aside the Jones debate, we should not have to argue the importance of having playmaking WRs.
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
Revisionist history? Come on, Manning didn't "take off" when the Giants got Burress. It was Manning's second year, after starting 7 games his first year. And, by the way, he had Barber, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Shiancoe in 2004. And in 2005, when he "took off", he had 24 TDs and 17 INTs. His completion percent was 52.8 percent. His rating was 76. He threw for 3,700 yards in 16 games (compared to Jones' rookie year, when in 12 starts, he threw for 3,000, and had 24 TDs and 12 INTs.)
In 2006, Manning had 24 TDs and 18 INTs, threw for 3,200 yards, with a rating of 77, in 2007, and in 2007 he had 23 TDs and 20 INTs with 3,300 yards and a rating of 74. He didn't top 60 percent completions until 2008 (60.3). He didn't top Jones' worst rating until 2008, or Jones' best two ratings until 2009.
How about we get Jones Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey, Shiancoe and Barber, not to mention Snee, O'Hara and Diehl, before we worry about getting him a Burress.
K2 - you had me until Schiancoe. I have a hard time listing Schiancoe right next to Barber, Shockey, Toomer, and Burress - LOL
He was better than any tight end Jones had in his first three years. And no worse than Bellinger. Remember, he was the No. 2 tight end (blocking was his first job, you know, helping the run game, which helps the play action passing game), when Shockey was getting 60 catches a year. When he went to Minny he average 40 catches a year with a high of 11 TDs in 2009.
This whole WR cant get seperation seems to me to me a matter of how much PI and down field contact the Refs will allow in a given game
But, yeah, no shit a QB looks better with the first string than with the backups.
It's not enough to JUST have a franchise QB.
Again - stating the obvious I'm sure. The lack of talent at WR (and the impact it has on the bottom line) could be one of the reasons DJ seems lukewarm on coming back.
How much will it affect his wallet? We're likely talking about millions of dollars. That's enough to make anyone sour. When Mara said they've done everything possible to screw him up, this is a big part of it.
It's not enough to JUST have a franchise QB.
Even Tom Freaking Brady needed and had good receivers. Some people believe this myth that Brady didn't have good receivers or that he elevated JAGs so much. Tell that to Gronk, one of the greatest all around TEs in history (a 2nd rd pick, so not like Brady turned a late rd TE into a HOFer). Or Welker, who was a multi year all pro, who put up pretty major stats (over 100 rec 5 X. Something OBJ has only done once), followed by Edelman, et al.
Brady had Randy Moss for 3+ yrs. And do you think his decision to go to TB had nothing to do with their WRs (Evans, Godwin)? Right.
You have to have an agenda to say that WR talent is irrelevant to the performance of a QB.
Then add to it on his 3rd offensive system in 4 years
With 2 years of Judge
Ohhh my. Wonder how this guy is still functioning.
How much will it affect his wallet? We're likely talking about millions of dollars. That's enough to make anyone sour. When Mara said they've done everything possible to screw him up, this is a big part of it.
What's your prediction for how much DJ's passing stats (passing TDs and yards) will improve with better WRs? Are we talking Carr and Goff, Cousins and Dak, or Mahomes and Burrow? What's his ceiling in your opinion? Also, do you think he'll stay healthy, most years, rushing 120+ times?
We've seen countless examples of this. When Rodgers lost Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams they stopped being a buzzsaw & he went down a peg.
Eli Manning didn't take off until we got him Plaxico Burress. Then we went out and got him Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham.
Elite QBs still need weapons or they aren't doing squat. I know Schoen poo-poo'd this at his PC but a #1 WR is not a luxury item, it's a necessity. He mentioned a lot of #1 WRs are sitting at home. Well - PHI's in the Super Bowl and they have 2 #1 WRs and the Chiefs have Kelce who is an All Pro TE.
Memory is not very clear but how was the OL when Beckham came to the Giants. It was during a decade when many considered Giants had poor OL talent and play. That was another year the team and Eli Manning did well.
Just trying to evaluate the popular opinion that OL is first then WR. Popular opinion about 2011 is that the OL was deteriorating but out of the world WR play helped to win the Super Bowl.
What happened in 2016? I remember their defense was very good.
It's a shame the networks don't trust us to evaluate the plays on our own.