A common theme around BBI is that prior regimes “neglected the OL”. We’ve heard this endlessly with Jerry Reese. It just isn’t true. This is a developmental issue. Let’s look at the Eagles starting OL:
LT: Jordan Mailata (7th round pick in 2018)
LG: Landon Dickerson (2nd round in 2021)
C: Jason Kelce (6th round in 2011)
RG: Isaac Seumalo (3rd round in 2016)
RT: Lane Johnson (*4th overall in 2013)
Lane Johnson was the only player who was a high first rounder. Everyone else was either mid or late round prospects with the exception of Dickerson. Absolutely no difference in what the Giants have invested in the OL.
What do the Eagles have? An elite OL coach in Jeff Stoutland. He’s been there since 2013 and through multiple head coaches.
So, did Reese really “neglect” the line? Or have the NYG scouting and developing been bad? The Giants have funneled through OL coaches like a revolving door including the amateur hour shit from 2020.
Hopefully Bobby Johnson can build these guys up, because it’s never been an issue with “investing in the line”.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012.
Maybe you're thinking 2011?
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imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012.
Maybe you're thinking 2011?
yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).
I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th.
In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji.
In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine.
Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.
Beatty
Boothe
Baas
Snee
Locklear
I think Locklear got hurt the first home game back from Sandy, and Diehl wrapped up the year at LT.
That Giants line was perfectly competent and should have been a good transition group.
2011 you had a elite QB throwing to a upper tier WR group to overcome the lack of rushing but they did do well in the playoffs and in the SB which was a underlying reason for why they won that game. They kept the leading scoring team off the field in that game.
2012 was better on the ground and they needed to be as Nicks injury was a big factor.
2013 was the great destruction on the OL. 2014 was the DL side.
Giants still not have recovered.
yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).
Got it.
That group was on fumes. The one thing I do remember was how banged up Baas was, but then how well he played in most of the playoffs, including the Super Bowl.
There was no reason to doubt at age 30 he couldn't hold the fort down for a few years.
I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th.
In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji.
In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine.
Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.
Will Hernandez graded higher than Mark Glowinski this season per PFF, at about 1/8 of the cost. He had a strong rookie season and then regressed, but it was probably just bad coaching all along.
Huge franchise changing loss. It exposed the LOS issue when he went down. The old guard OL and a elite QB make it work for a bit.
But when he was injured it exposed the carnage that happened on the lines.
Interesting because Jerry seemed to be grooming him. Maybe Jerry also felt some things went off tilt if he allowed this.
That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.
That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.
That guy ruled. He moved onto Duke Johson, which was even more bananas.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
Another great point which gets ignored.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
What was these players impact to the teams they went to?
Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.
In 2016, you could make an argument that the line wasn't great, but you also had the beginning of Eli's stage decline, and again the skill position guys were nobodies outside of OBJ (especially after Vereen got injured)
I feel like we get way too caught up in condeming the offensive line for the decade-pluse struggle when it's simply one factor of a bad-luck, poorly run team. In, fact you could find multiple problems in every season:
2012-2013: O-line performance, Nicks injury, Manningham departure, bad RBs (2013)
2014-2015: no skill position playmakers outside of OBJ (Rueben Randle was the no.2 option)
2016-2018: mediocre/injured line play, bad coaching, Eli's performance declines significantly (always hovered around top ten advanced stats in his prime, fell to bottom ten in these years)
2019-2021: Bad everything from o-line to coaching to skill positions plus bad injury luck on their two good skill guys in Jones and Barkley.
You mean James (Petrified to be on the field) Brewer (cams caught closeups face behind his facemask), Matt (Wrong Way) McCants, Brandon (WWF) Mosley, Bobby (Best OL) Hart, et al. It wasn't only that all were flops, but the team would not move on from them for multiple seasons too long in most cases. All were on 'scholarship' as Banks would say, and he wasn't wrong. The latter aspect may well be as much on the coaching staff under TC at the time as on JR: instead of making clear to Reese, these guys are not NFL players, somehow that didn't happen, which may be one aspect of the JR-TC divide that only grew. I don't think Schoen would abide such lack of results/productivity.
btw, completely agree your 12:33 re 2011 as the template.
2016 the offense took a big dive when TC left and McAdoo implanted his system full throttle. With TC it was a hybrid. That offense I believe scored under 20 points and it was the defense that carried the way. 2015 it was over 25 points.
DG tried buying an OL. And only drafted 6 OL in 4 years; fortunately 1 was AT
The Giants had a viable transition plan in place that worked in 2012. Unfortunately that pretty effective line was ravaged by career ending injuries.
The Giants then invested heavily in a series of lineman the staff championed, who all under achieved.
The facts don't align with the caveman Reese bad, Coughlin goodest mumblings.
My favorite counter argument is when the imminently punchable Kevin Gilbride is invoked. Which is funny, because despite how good of a coordinator he was, you see how hard Coughlin (didn't) fought to keep him.
This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise.
The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ.
And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year.
This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise.
LOS, perhaps, but to me that's weak sauce, no? All teams must deal with the same parameters: TC staff couldn't discern good players from crap.
He did just that. Destroyed under Reese.
Get over it. Be smarter.
Eh, this "destroyed under Reese" idea needs some nuance.
1. The role of Chris Mara
2. The role of Tom Coughlin
For an example of #2, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers after the Giants dumped him. So how much of that pick was Coughlin involved in? If it were all Reese Coughlin wouldn't have gone near him.
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when Wellington was alive TC had a lot of input. He said he was going to control the LOS in his intro the Giants. Welling said it was "music to his ears".
He did just that. Destroyed under Reese.
Get over it. Be smarter.
Eh, this "destroyed under Reese" idea needs some nuance.
1. The role of Chris Mara
2. The role of Tom Coughlin
For an example of #2, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers after the Giants dumped him. So how much of that pick was Coughlin involved in? If it were all Reese Coughlin wouldn't have gone near him.
I have not said TC had a role in it. What I have said is that TC was a LOS coach and believed in winning the physical battle and starting in the 2012 draft it was very unlike TC to go the route they did.
He may have been in on the Flowers pick. That pick was also out of desperation with where the lines were and the later picks were all out of need. Flowers, Pugh and Richburg.
Flowers was a capable NFL player. Just not a left tackkle.
When Resse and McAdoo were throwing Eli under the bus they both chose to protect Flowers. When BM was fired then he said Flowers was not a left tackle.
You can decide for yourself.
LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard
LG Suebert: UDFA
C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center
RG Snee: 2nd round pick
LT McKenzie: premium UFA
McKenzie was drafted in the 3rd round by the Jets.
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Players?
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
What was these players impact to the teams they went to?
Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.
There is no agenda. Just facts and reality.
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The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ.
And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year.
Richburg signed a 5 year 50m contract to play for San Francisco. They don't hand those contracts out to JAGs. It's also not his fault he tore his patellar and also needed hip surgery.
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I think there may be some merit that TC's staff may have had some difficulties adjusting to the new rules practice wise regarding the new CBA.
This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise.
LOS, perhaps, but to me that's weak sauce, no? All teams must deal with the same parameters: TC staff couldn't discern good players from crap.
I think they may have been better with the old practice regiment in getting more out of less talented players.
Agree, weak sauce but you coach the players you are given and maybe the limited practice time contributed to mot maximizing whatever talent they had.
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Eli started deteriorating. He lost patience and stopped side-stepping within the pocket, his eyes dropped to the rush and he has lost downfield accuracy. He knew the 2016 defense was solid and were winning games for the Giants, so he gave up on plays easily and was fine with just punting.
The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ.
And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year.
Richburg signed a 5 year 50m contract to play for San Francisco. They don't hand those contracts out to JAGs. It's also not his fault he tore his patellar and also needed hip surgery.
Fair enough Ten Ton Hammer. My comment went too far with respect to Richburg.
https://ninernoise.com/2019/03/09/49ers-expect-center-weston-richburg-2019/
The problem with the Giants was they accepted just being average as a standard.
In the NFCE this just does not play out. It has always been a division where you need to be in the upper tier on the lines.
All those outstanding 80's teams. The Cowboys of the 90's.
The early TC teams.
Now Philly. Dallas has also been much better in the fronts.
Good luck trying to navigate this division and the NFC overall when you are not well above average on your fronts.
garrett didnt learn the lesson belichek did when scarnechia retired.
drafting and development are both important factors but great coaches cut through that and get the best out of whatever talent they get.
bill callahan (and sporano/houck before that) set the dallas OL on the course its been on for the last decade. i think it was callahan in DC who turned flowers around at guard and got him the big FA contract (which he underperformed after callahan left and helped turn around cleveland's OL). jeff stoutland in philly has done a great job whether in cfb or pros for more than decade. flaherty obviously did a really good job for the majority of his run here and i think the relationship with flowers is what ultimately pushed macadoo to go in another direction in 2015, but obviously there's been a lot of wilderness since then. hopefully bobby johnson is the answer but im not sure that's certain just yet.
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Players?
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
What was these players impact to the teams they went to?
Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.
Agreed LOS...
There is a contingent of people that just don't want to spend resources on the OL... They want splashy players at other positions.
They constantly bring up those failed players and others.
You cannot stop investing in OL positions. Pretty much ever. it is 5 positions not 1. It constantly needs depth and a pipeline of replacement players. 5 players represents 23% of all offensive and defensive players on the field. A teams investment should be similar. Even with the 5 failed players over the past decade plus, the Giants are nowhere near using 23% of draft resources on the OL.
What is more, you cannot just throw up your hands and say, we spent X amount of resources, they didn't work, but we are done anyway... It doesn't work like that, you have to keep investing until you solve the problem, then keep investing for depth and future players.
Lastly, more than 1 thing can be true at the same time.
1) We have not spent enough resource on the position group.
2) When we spent resources on players, we didn't spend wisely, they were not good players (i.e. the 5 mentioned above, even if they are still around, they have never lived up to their draft position and were a poor spend).
3) we need to do a better job of coaching and development...
All of these are true. And you cannot use the latter 2 to excuse not spending resources.
im not sure there are any big IOL upgrades in this year's UFA class though I agree you need to be drafting talent on the OL every year. unless there's a zack martin available in round 1 though i dont see any silver bullet beyond getting more out of what they already have once they decide which of the centers they want to resign for 2023. if they are going to draft a rookie to contribute year 1 it's more likely to happen at LG than C.
He said if you have size and athleticism in high school you become a defender. And if you just have size you end up an offensive lineman. And that carries forward to the NFL.
Reason I think that’s relevant, if the offense line is always up against higher talent opponents, coaching becomes that much more important. Makes sense too from schematic, continuity, sum greater than the parts etc.
I’m sure there are other examples, but Gates is the only overachiever I can remember in the last 10 years.
He said if you have size and athleticism in high school you become a defender. And if you just have size you end up an offensive lineman. And that carries forward to the NFL.
Reason I think that’s relevant, if the offense line is always up against higher talent opponents, coaching becomes that much more important. Makes sense too from schematic, continuity, sum greater than the parts etc.
I’m sure there are other examples, but Gates is the only overachiever I can remember in the last 10 years.
OL is maybe the most technique important position. That's why someone at like 290 pounds like kelce can be an all pro as long as he has and someone like Evan Neal who has every tool necessary can struggle.
it's also the position that's been hurt among the most performance wise with the lack of padded practices over the last decade's new CBAs. i generally buy that OL play around the league has regressed and there are just fewer good ones to go around - and that it happened as the nyg were in a down cycle picking/developing poorly on top of that. which makes the miss when callahan was available that much more irritating.
im not sure there are any big IOL upgrades in this year's UFA class though I agree you need to be drafting talent on the OL every year. unless there's a zack martin available in round 1 though i dont see any silver bullet beyond getting more out of what they already have once they decide which of the centers they want to resign for 2023. if they are going to draft a rookie to contribute year 1 it's more likely to happen at LG than C.
Neal worries me a bit. Haven't given up on him but man we can't have a repeat of his rookie year either. In an ideal world NYG bring in an OG/OT that can slide into that spot if he continues to struggle with Pass Pro. Obviously easier said than done but that would be high on the priority list.
Neal might go the way of Scherff. Scherff was originally drafted as an OT but Wash switched him quickly to OG in preseason when it became eveident he just didnt have quite the feet for OT. Again this may not be the case but we need to hedge our bets a bit....way too many years of poor tackle play hampering our effectiveness on offense.
https://ninernoise.com/2019/03/09/49ers-expect-center-weston-richburg-2019/
he was terrible. he could always be found at Eli's feet after being blown off the line
Hopefully not the case but the poster above mentioned the previous scholarship mentality the Giants had in not acknowledging poor talent.
Great coaches need NFL talent to develop.
However, it is more important that what most here believe. You also need to continue spending money and assets in that area until it has been solidified.
If you have a leaking roof and you spend money to fix it, but it is still leaking.... you still need to fix it. Saying we already tried to fix it is not acceptable.
However, it is more important that what most here believe. You also need to continue spending money and assets in that area until it has been solidified.
If you have a leaking roof and you spend money to fix it, but it is still leaking.... you still need to fix it. Saying we already tried to fix it is not acceptable.
This draft is extremely deep at OT . Multiple that can play either OG or OT too. Would have no issue taking one early. Between Ezeudu/Neal and a potential draft pick let the 3 battle it out for the 2 spots: LG/RT. Think Neal is a high probablity stud at OG if he bombs at RT.
In retrospect, the offensive staff setup was a total mess under Judge. It’s obvious he didn’t want Garrett, and Colombo was one of, if not the only hire Garrett truly likes picked.
On a big run by Sanders, they ran a stretch left and pulled LJ all the way across the formation from the RT position.
I don't think I've ever seen an OT do that, and certainly never seen it done as well as Lane did it. It was freakish. Kelce also does some unbelievable things.
They have 2 Hall of Fame-calibre players up front and a great coach. It's a special situation that won't last much longer.
Lane Johnson finished his rookie season ranked as the 26th best right tackle by PFF. Year two, he was suspended for PEDs, but played much better after the 4 game absence but even then, he didn't see his first pro bowl or all pro team until his fourth year!
Plenty of time for Neal.
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It would be nice if Evan Neal was somewhere near Johnson's level. He has similar athleticism and pedigree. Hoping the light goes on and we see utter domination next year.
Lane Johnson finished his rookie season ranked as the 26th best right tackle by PFF. Year two, he was suspended for PEDs, but played much better after the 4 game absence but even then, he didn't see his first pro bowl or all pro team until his fourth year!
Plenty of time for Neal.
Plenty. Guess Neal will still have his bumps, but imagine 2023 will be markedly better. He has the frame, pedigree and winning experience to be a solid as hell RT.