A harsh reality in building the OL re: investing in the line

not allocating resources to the position...the guys they took just never seemed to work out.

They absolutely invested a ton of capital, both through the draft and FA bucks, in the line. It's amazing how badly they whiffed throughout the years.

Go get mike munchak and pay him to come to the Giants to coach our OL!

so they spent there but he hasn't taken the starting role.

Jurgens was a second found pick. So even with Stoutland they've consistently invested in their line. hopefully our guys take a step forward next year.

or guys that the coaching staff cannot develop, then are you really investing in the OL?

I think the context of investing in the OL should infer when you can't observe a reasonable ROI, that you invest more until you do.

It’s not only how he coaches but he has a big hand in identifying the talent and is obviously the run game coordinator for the most dynamic rushing attack in the league.

And Sean, both McAdoo and Judge tried to add Stoutland to their staffs and Roseman said no way.

there is a large contingent on here thinking every lineman needs to be a first or 2nd round pick.

Meanwhile the Eagles have 2 first round stud WRs on their team that take a hell of a lot of pressure off the O-line

Very few late round pick OL turn into quality starters. Plenty of them start but there are very few that are good. The teams that win championships have deep drafts, just look at our 07-08 team and where we drafted a lot of those guys. In my view, talent > coaching and the Eagles OL success says more about their scouting department than their coaches.

When you have a revolving door of coaches. We have invested in the OL in the draft and FA and have failed whether is was development or just bringing in the wrong guys. Some of our draft picks have gone on to be successful in other places. It also takes a bit of luck too.

Kelce was a 6th round pick, it’s not often that a 6th rounder has that type of impact. Even the Eagles didn’t know if he would have been drafted sooner. The Giants got lucky like that years ago with Diehl and it helped solidify the OL but our Super Bowl OLs were a mix of Draft and FAs. I would go get a top OC in FA if one were available. We haven’t had a great OC in a long time. Even when Gates was the starter he was just average, we tend to over value him because he was an UDFA.

Find a high quality OL coach and make him a permanent part of the staff.

If Bobby Johnson is that level of quality, the Giants should do the same with him.

And just for old time's sake, the high water mark for the Coughlin Glory Years Line in 2008:

LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard
LG Suebert: UDFA
C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center
RG Snee: 2nd round pick
LT McKenzie: premium UFA

The reality is you cannot continue to throw first and second round picks at the OL and expect that to automatically solve the problem. The OL, probably more than any other position in the league, benefits from great coaching and development. Many great teams that have had great Olines featured top notch Oline coaches.

The Giants have invested top resources in the position, they've simply just failed to develop many of these players, which has, in large part, led to a decade of bad football.

it about the talent that can be developed. The big mistake was not being prepared to replace the last good OL the Giants had.

O'Hara retires after 2011. They went to FA with Baas who winds up getting hurt. Should have someone ready to step in from the draft who had been developed. Then McKenzie leaves after 2011. Nobody to step in. Snee. They went FA with Schwartz and he gets hurt. Etc. Gilbride warned of this but the front office did little.

Reese was just terrible outside his first few years. Deal with reality imv. We just went through the BOG concept thread couple weeks ago where some dope was saying Reese's mistake was not drafting more skill players instead of OL.

Until the lines are fully restored don't expect much to change.

who insist we need to spend 1 if not 2 of our premium picks on the OL this year.

In comment 16019577 WillieYoung said:

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who insist we need to spend 1 if not 2 of our premium picks on the OL this year.

There was also a thread a couple of weeks ago cautioning us against overemphasizing the WR position. Compare those OL resources to what the Eagles have invested in the WR position. The reality of the NFL now is that playmakers are needed - even if overvalued. Anyone watch Burrough just chuck it up yesterday hoping Chase would come down with it? He does that all the time. Worked out at least once on a long conversion, other was an INT.

They need playmakers, desperately.

In comment 16019567 christian said:

Quote:

And just for old time's sake, the high water mark for the Coughlin Glory Years Line in 2008: LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard LG Suebert: UDFA C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center RG Snee: 2nd round pick LT McKenzie: premium UFA

And McKenzie was originally a third round pick.

It's a real black mark on Coughlin's resume that he didn't stock the offensive line with the depth needed to withstand the injuries the very good 2012 offensive line had.

Reese destroyed the franchise. There is a reason he was never hired again. He destroyed the foundation of the franchise.

They have some pieces on both lines now but they need to continue to bring those lines to a more competitive level.

When that happens again then the Giants will again play in the big games like yesterday.

All started with the SB clock.

But didn't you tell me Coughlin was largely in charge of the drafts and personnel up until 2012, and picking David Wilson was a sign something changed?

So is that true or false? One word will suffice.

when Wellington was alive TC had a lot of input. He said he was going to control the LOS in his intro the Giants. Welling said it was "music to his ears".

He did just that. Destroyed under Reese.

Get over it. Be smarter.

In comment 16019577 WillieYoung said:

Quote:

who insist we need to spend 1 if not 2 of our premium picks on the OL this year.

You better be able to find 50 posters that insist we spend 1 premium pick on OL (assuming premium means Day1 & Day2)

If not, we should all be reading another Board.

In comment 16019576 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

it about the talent that can be developed. The big mistake was not being prepared to replace the last good OL the Giants had. O'Hara retires after 2011. They went to FA with Baas who winds up getting hurt. Should have someone ready to step in from the draft who had been developed. Then McKenzie leaves after 2011. Nobody to step in. Snee. They went FA with Schwartz and he gets hurt. Etc. Gilbride warned of this but the front office did little. Reese was just terrible outside his first few years. Deal with reality imv. We just went through the BOG concept thread couple weeks ago where some dope was saying Reese's mistake was not drafting more skill players instead of OL. Until the lines are fully restored don't expect much to change.

I've always been an adherent of GY's Planet Theory. There's only so many of them on the planet. TC's quote about big men allowing you to compete was also spot on. Gilbride did warn them. Instead of taking Cordy Glenn in 2012 they took lil David Wilson, lol.

I'm just trying to understand your ever evolving timelines.

So Coughlin had personnel control in 2004 and 2005, then Wellington Mara died, and he lost control?

I thought Coughlin was in charge until 2012, now you're saying he was only in charge until 2005?

Take a minute and catch your breath before you answer with some other wild about face.

Correct. Wilson is a good pick to see the changing of the guard. TC always had big backs going back to Jax with Taylor. Then Jacobs and Ward at 260 and 240.

we already have established you are not a man with high integrity. Let's not start making things up now. I never said that in 2012. Be better my man.

Plenty.

1. You have to get the draft picks RIGHT. The Giants didn't until Andrew Thomas.

2. You have to CONTINUALLY DRAFT OLs REGULARLY. Even if they're mid-to-low rounders. The Giants didn't. There were MANY drafts during the hell years the Giants drafted ZERO OLs.

Under Accorsi and Reese, the Giants PREFERRED to fill out their OL with vet FAs. That CAN work in the short term (guys like O'Hara and McKenzie were truly GREAT additions), but it rarely keeps the OL competitive over time.

3. YOUR SCOUTS HAVE TO KNOW A GOOD OL WHEN THEY SEE ONE.
IMO, this is the real KEY. And it has been the Giants' big failure over the last 10 years of OL hell.

And I'm not talking about taking an A. Thomas 4th overall. When you have that high a pick and your choice of all the top blue chip guys, and you take one, it doesn't make you a scouting genius. And for his first two years, most though Thomas was the weakest of the four DG could have chosen. Now he appears to be the best. But all the mid round OL picks? Ugh. But THAT is where you truly BUILD your OL with guys who aren't particularly expensive at first. Your scouts HAVE to be able to look at those guys and NOT draft Matt Peart, Will Hernandez (granted, that looked like a good pick at the time). You can say they hit on Lemieux and Gates, but those guys were never IDEALLY slated to be starters.

The good news is that Schoen and crew seem to get this right more often than past staffs did.

So, yes, Coaching matters. But it's amazing how the coaches who have talented players look like geniuses, and the ones who don't, look like bums.

The line needs to better whether they pumped 100 draft picks or zero into it during Reese or whomever. The fact remains the Giants OL went from the most dominant in the league to one of the worst in 3 years and it’s still a work in progress 12 years later.

In comment 16019630 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

we already have established you are not a man with high integrity. Let's not start making things up now. I never said that in 2012. Be better my man.

Link to thread

Your quote from said thread:

Quote:

I told you already. The 2012 draft shows the clear change who was calling the shots. Then the clock in the locker room. On what planet would TC draft a 205 pound scat back in round 1 with the state of his fronts? He drafted Fred Taylor in Jax. Ward added in 2004 and Jacobs in 2005. In Jax they added 240 pound Fournette. You have to start keeping up with previous convo's my friend. Basketball on grass.

Have I not said that Reese was calling the shots?

So just to be clear -- your view is Coughlin was calling the shots until 2012, then something clearly changed?

They have stayed healthy most of the year with the exception of Johnson at the end, but he came back for the playoffs.

Lets look at the fact that they ran the ball more than 55% of the time in the 2 play off games. That is a linemens dream. They have a running QB, 3 RB's that all have speed, a great 2 way TE and 2 dominant WR the secondary must account for.

You don't need to draft OL in rounds 1 or 2 to have a successful OL. You better be able to develope these players though. Having chemistry and having the unit play together is imperative.

The most important position is the Center and Kelce makes that unit go.

I hope NYG solidifies the Center position this year.

when Coughlin arrived in 2004 Accorsi was the GM, until 2007.

o'hara was one of the first free agents signed by them in 04.
the first draft in 04 was Eli/Snee.
in 05 mckenzie became the highest paid NYG UFA ever (he got more than plax and pierce).

Diehl had been drafted in 2003 and Seubert was a holdover UDFA all the way back to 2001.

That was all before Reese was GM and a primary decision maker. He was in the organization the entire time, and of course he deserves credit for the draft picks since that was his domain but just by proxy of him not being 1 of the 2 most senior decision makers in the organization it's hard to give him any sort of significant credit either way for resource allocation strategy. also from the horses mouth we know the final call on snee for example was coughlins.

i know im a broken record on this boogeymab but you know who wasn't in the org and whose ascent to specific positions lines up with the organizations biggest failings? Marc Ross. he became director of college scouting in 2007 backfilling reese and then further promoted to EVP in 2012 right around the 2nd super bowl when he was getting GM interviews elsewhere. whatever shift happened post-Accorsi retirement in the power structure of decreased OL investment it's inarguable that the OL drafting was abysmal from roughly 08-16, and that the drafting in general fell off a cliff from the Accorsi/Reese/Coughlin years to the Reese/Ross/Coughlin years.

In comment 16019663 christian said:

Quote:

So just to be clear -- your view is Coughlin was calling the shots until 2012, then something clearly changed?

I get it. The old "just to be clear".

You just are not following things. I'm sorry you seem a little fragile to understand the conversation. Maybe best to engage elsewhere.

In comment 16019668 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

In comment 16019663 christian said: Quote: So just to be clear -- your view is Coughlin was calling the shots until 2012, then something clearly changed? I get it. The old "just to be clear". You just are not following things. I'm sorry you seem a little fragile to understand the conversation. Maybe best to engage elsewhere.

LOL, the moment you give up gives me enormous satisfaction.

Go back to your hole now.

.

Ross is probably a good one to look at. He was hired by Reese but I do think he had different ideas of team building what had been a Giants staple.

It is incredibly hard to navigate the NFCE without lines that can compete.

People who go berserk over Jerry Reese tend to gloss over the fact that, as was the case at almost every position, the Giants had lousy injury luck at OL.

Top offensive linemen tend to have rather long careers. Jason Peters is older than Chris Snee and was STILL playing this year, a decade after Snee retired.

Snee was finished by age 31. Seubert was finished by age 31. McKenzie was finished by age 32, and had been in rapid, severe decline for a few seasons. O'Hara retired at 33. The overall decline of the OL was rather swift and came earlier than expected, no matter how much after the fact ass-covering Kevin Gilbride attempts.

In comment 16019688 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

People who go berserk over Jerry Reese tend to gloss over the fact that, as was the case at almost every position, the Giants had lousy injury luck at OL. Top offensive linemen tend to have rather long careers. Jason Peters is older than Chris Snee and was STILL playing this year, a decade after Snee retired. Snee was finished by age 31. Seubert was finished by age 31. McKenzie was finished by age 32, and had been in rapid, severe decline for a few seasons. O'Hara retired at 33. The overall decline of the OL was rather swift and came earlier than expected, no matter how much after the fact ass-covering Kevin Gilbride attempts.

Great post. Reese was really saddled with awful injury luck.

In comment 16019576 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

it about the talent that can be developed. The big mistake was not being prepared to replace the last good OL the Giants had. O'Hara retires after 2011. They went to FA with Baas who winds up getting hurt. Should have someone ready to step in from the draft who had been developed. Then McKenzie leaves after 2011. Nobody to step in. Snee. They went FA with Schwartz and he gets hurt. Etc. Gilbride warned of this but the front office did little. Reese was just terrible outside his first few years. Deal with reality imv. We just went through the BOG concept thread couple weeks ago where some dope was saying Reese's mistake was not drafting more skill players instead of OL. Until the lines are fully restored don't expect much to change.

Schwartz sucked anyway. An oft-injured career backup. Reese and Ross obviously used Peter King as their go to scout, because he is the only one who ever mentioned GS as a top FA.

In comment 16019673 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

.

Of course it's not.

Simple explanations to complex problems and outcomes rarely are.

The truth is probably that Accorsi, Reese, Ross, Gettleman, and Coughlin both made good and bad contributions to the personnel profile during the championship run.

And like all operations that are on top, the decline isn't attributable to one person or one set of decisions.

Anecdotally, I heard TC loved Flowers and was a big fan of the pick.

We also drafted Pugh and Richburg pretty high.

They made the investments. They just didn't work out.

I think both Reese and TC deserve blame for that. And they both deserve credit for winning two Super Bowls here.

Greg, Sean -- look at the pretty good 2012 the devils that are Reese and Ross assembled -- and the comedy of injuries that ensued.

Beatty (27)
Boothe (29)
Baas (31)
Snee (30)
Diehl (32)

Each of those guys effective careers are over in 1-2 years.

If Giants phase out Diehl and Boothe, and Pugh and Richburg work out, things look much different.

and let's not forget Sy56:

"On the Ourlads All-Pro team, PHI has the 1st-team center (Kelce), and the 2nd-team LG (Dickerson) and RT (Johnson). The other two starters are probably considered top-7 in the league at their positions. This line is one of the best I have ever seen. Their starters were brought in via the draft, every single one. 2011, 2013, 2016, 2018, 2021. Their backups? 2019, 2021, 2022, 2022. All in the draft or undrafted free agency. Feed the trenches. Draft better linemen. Then draft their backups. It will work."

I hope that Schoen continues to revamp the scouting department

name an OL player we picked recently, high pick or not, that worked out other than Andrew Thomas? Hernandez, Peart, Lemieux, Flowers, Hart, the list goes on. That's putting aside the FA, expensive or not, too. Neal is undetermined at this time, but he has work to do.

They've either had horrible luck, bad scouting, bad coaching or all three. Just by luck we should have a decent OL, but even after all this we still had a terrible pass-blocking OL.

If Schoen / Daboll are as competent as we think they are, we have to get to at least average next year.

In comment 16019688 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

People who go berserk over Jerry Reese tend to gloss over the fact that, as was the case at almost every position, the Giants had lousy injury luck at OL. Top offensive linemen tend to have rather long careers. Jason Peters is older than Chris Snee and was STILL playing this year, a decade after Snee retired. Snee was finished by age 31. Seubert was finished by age 31. McKenzie was finished by age 32, and had been in rapid, severe decline for a few seasons. O'Hara retired at 33. The overall decline of the OL was rather swift and came earlier than expected, no matter how much after the fact ass-covering Kevin Gilbride attempts.

You were a Marine with this type of mentality? Interesting. Very.

I'll never defend the JR's drafts the back nine of his tenure. He oversaw a series of duds. I was shocked and disappointed he was retained when Coughlin was pushed out.

And in retrospect the fix it or else direction from Mara to JR portended the coming years of disaster.

In comment 16019706 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Anecdotally, I heard TC loved Flowers and was a big fan of the pick. We also drafted Pugh and Richburg pretty high. They made the investments. They just didn't work out. I think both Reese and TC deserve blame for that. And they both deserve credit for winning two Super Bowls here.

Absolutely true.

Since you know me so well

In comment 16019711 christian said:

Quote:

Greg, Sean -- look at the pretty good 2012 the devils that are Reese and Ross assembled -- and the comedy of injuries that ensued. Beatty (27) Boothe (29) Baas (31) Snee (30) Diehl (32) Each of those guys effective careers are over in 1-2 years. If Giants phase out Diehl and Boothe, and Pugh and Richburg work out, things look much different.

Absolutely. This idea that Reese didn’t care about the OL is way off base. Both the Eagles current line and the Giants 2007 line prove this.

In comment 16019721 christian said:

Quote:

I'll never defend the JR's drafts the back nine of his tenure. He oversaw a series of duds. I was shocked and disappointed he was retained when Coughlin was pushed out. And in retrospect the fix it or else direction from Mara to JR portended the coming years of disaster.

IMO, it became kind of a cascade. All the severe injuries to established players constantly opened new holes in the roster that they didn't expect to be there, and they started reaching more and more based on need and Ross' obsession with particular athletic traits.

Oh I bet this will be good. Full of holes. But good.

In comment 16019706 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Anecdotally, I heard TC loved Flowers and was a big fan of the pick. We also drafted Pugh and Richburg pretty high. They made the investments. They just didn't work out. I think both Reese and TC deserve blame for that. And they both deserve credit for winning two Super Bowls here.

Coughlin publicly was more effusive in his praise of Flowers than almost any other rookie i remember.

and i agree everyone shares in the credit/blame. there's no way to quantify exactly who had more say on anything but i think divvying out credit/blame commensurate with whatever their actual titled roles were at the time is a reasonably safe proposition.

In comment 16019728 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 16019721 christian said: Quote: I'll never defend the JR's drafts the back nine of his tenure. He oversaw a series of duds. I was shocked and disappointed he was retained when Coughlin was pushed out. And in retrospect the fix it or else direction from Mara to JR portended the coming years of disaster. IMO, it became kind of a cascade. All the severe injuries to established players constantly opened new holes in the roster that they didn't expect to be there, and they started reaching more and more based on need and Ross' obsession with particular athletic traits.

I agree. Ross's shop seemingly could only scout skill players correctly. That's why I would have preferred they just stick to that and stockpile them. Instead of the series of buttholes they picked on the OL.

In comment 16019724 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16019711 christian said: Quote: Greg, Sean -- look at the pretty good 2012 the devils that are Reese and Ross assembled -- and the comedy of injuries that ensued. Beatty (27) Boothe (29) Baas (31) Snee (30) Diehl (32) Each of those guys effective careers are over in 1-2 years. If Giants phase out Diehl and Boothe, and Pugh and Richburg work out, things look much different. Absolutely. This idea that Reese didn’t care about the OL is way off base. Both the Eagles current line and the Giants 2007 line prove this.

How do we know what Reese's cares were on groups before he became GM? He inherited the 2007 OL pretty much in tact no?

Accorsi and Fassell were no OL gurus btw, they were the OG underinvestors of OL starting udfas like Ian Allen all over the place. I think the entire organization sort of lucked into that unit being elite and staying healthy for as long as they did with a sprinkle of strong investments that worked out well like McKenzie/Snee.

In comment 16019723 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Since you know me so well

Lot of excuses and not anticipating in your post. Perhaps be more careful in who you call a clown. Or don't.

Ernie Accorsi, who is much-lauded by many posters here, was GM from 1998 to 2006, a span of nine seasons. Want to take a guess at how many offensive linemen he drafted in that time? By round...

Round 1: Luke Petitgout (1999)
Round 2: Chris Snee (2004)
Round 3: Jeff Hatch (2002) *snicker*
Round 4: Guy Whimper (2006)
Round 5: Toby Myles (1998), Mike Rosenthal (1999), David Diehl (2003)
Round 6: none
Round 7: Ben "tough as a boot" Fricke (1998), Wayne Lucier (2003), Drew Stronjy (2004)

That's ten players in nine drafts, with the majority of them in rounds 5 and 7. One All Pro in Snee, one long time starter in Diehl. Petitgout was a disappointment. Jeff Hatch was a joke. Whimper and Ronsenthal hung on for a while mostly as backups. Myles, Fricke, and Lucier were fringe players with brief careers. Stronjy never made a roster.

So that's the OL draft investments made by the much-lauded Ernie Accorsi. Most of the better linemen of his time were free agent acquisitions - Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Ron Stone, and Dusty Ziegler from the 2000 Super Bowl OL, McKenzie and O'Hara from the Coughlin championship OL - and hitting the jackpot with UDFA Rich Seubert. The level of investment really wasn't any different than it was under Reese.

Eric — I agree the 07/08 group had a dash of luck. Diehl and Seubert rising up and having mid/late career peaks as near dominant players is pretty uncommon.

I really liked what Reese and Gettleman did to put together the 2012 group. What happened from that point on is where to focus on things falling apart.

Reese had signed Sean Locklear. He comes in, plays well for most of the season....then blows out his knee and never plays again.

That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).

In comment 16019762 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Reese had signed Sean Locklear. He comes in, plays well for most of the season....then blows out his knee and never plays again. That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).

Shaun Andrews also played in 2010, played well, and got hurt.

In comment 16019753 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Ernie Accorsi, who is much-lauded by many posters here, was GM from 1998 to 2006, a span of nine seasons. Want to take a guess at how many offensive linemen he drafted in that time? By round... Round 1: Luke Petitgout (1999) Round 2: Chris Snee (2004) Round 3: Jeff Hatch (2002) *snicker* Round 4: Guy Whimper (2006) Round 5: Toby Myles (1998), Mike Rosenthal (1999), David Diehl (2003) Round 6: none Round 7: Ben "tough as a boot" Fricke (1998), Wayne Lucier (2003), Drew Stronjy (2004) That's ten players in nine drafts, with the majority of them in rounds 5 and 7. One All Pro in Snee, one long time starter in Diehl. Petitgout was a disappointment. Jeff Hatch was a joke. Whimper and Ronsenthal hung on for a while mostly as backups. Myles, Fricke, and Lucier were fringe players with brief careers. Stronjy never made a roster. So that's the OL draft investments made by the much-lauded Ernie Accorsi. Most of the better linemen of his time were free agent acquisitions - Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Ron Stone, and Dusty Ziegler from the 2000 Super Bowl OL, McKenzie and O'Hara from the Coughlin championship OL - and hitting the jackpot with UDFA Rich Seubert. The level of investment really wasn't any different than it was under Reese.

Greg, who are Giants fans allowed to like without being called out as "worshippers"?

Apparently Tom Coughlin was a scrub, Ernie Accorsi was a hack who didn't know his way around talent. What other historical Giants figures who directly contributed to and/or oversaw 2 championship teams are no good?

In comment 16019762 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Reese had signed Sean Locklear. He comes in, plays well for most of the season....then blows out his knee and never plays again. That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).

It's excuses. You have to anticipate and be prepared.

They had a outstanding OL that they never drafted well enough to replace.

As each one fell off they then had to go to FA to replace.

The issue was you had a QB on a expensive contract and you needed to be cost effective to account for this.

Gilbride spilled the beans after they drafted Pugh that the coaching staff had warned the front office about the impending doom.

Then the panicked and reached for players to overcome what had been neglected.

It's not very difficult to understand.

In comment 16019567 christian said:

Quote:

And just for old time's sake, the high water mark for the Coughlin Glory Years Line in 2008: LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard LG Suebert: UDFA C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center RG Snee: 2nd round pick LT McKenzie: premium UFA

SB XXI
2 UDFA, 2 8th rounders, and Karl Nelson (3rd)

What "anticipation" did the Giants do under Accorsi that you can point to? I've laid out his draft record. If, say, Shaun O'Hara or Kareem McKenzie had blown out a knee in 2006 and never played again, are you suggesting to me that the Giants still would have won in 2007 due to some gauzy, ill-defined concept of "anticipation" you keep alluding to?

Who had already demonstrated their abilities in the USFL. I would consider them more as free agents than undrafted.

In comment 16019779 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

What "anticipation" did the Giants do under Accorsi that you can point to? I've laid out his draft record. If, say, Shaun O'Hara or Kareem McKenzie had blown out a knee in 2006 and never played again, are you suggesting to me that the Giants still would have won in 2007 due to some gauzy, ill-defined concept of "anticipation" you keep alluding to?

I never said Ernie anticipated. I have said that TC when he came in changed the commitment to the lines and he had the backing to be able to do that. Snee and McKenzie were not something that Ernie had ever done.

Not sure where this Ernie thing is coming from regarding me.

In comment 16019766 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Apparently Tom Coughlin was a scrub, Ernie Accorsi was a hack who didn't know his way around talent. What other historical Giants figures who directly contributed to and/or oversaw 2 championship teams are no good?

According to guys like you, Jerry Reese was a disaster despite actually being the GM for two championship teams.

Hey, here's something else to chuckle about - for all the blather about how Accorsi supposedly contributed so much more to championships than Reese, no one ever acknowledges that many of the best players during Accorsi's tenure were drafted by George Young: Strahan, Armstead, Hamilton, Toomer, Barber, Sehorn, Hilliard.

Good things: all Tom Coughlin's doing
Bad things: other people's fault

I too will resurrect my own classics: Tom Coughlin had the greatest gig in the world in the eyes of certain people. He deserved absolutely all of the credit for success and absolutely none of the criticism for failure.

In comment 16019787 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 16019766 Chris684 said: Quote: Apparently Tom Coughlin was a scrub, Ernie Accorsi was a hack who didn't know his way around talent. What other historical Giants figures who directly contributed to and/or oversaw 2 championship teams are no good? According to guys like you, Jerry Reese was a disaster despite actually being the GM for two championship teams. Hey, here's something else to chuckle about - for all the blather about how Accorsi supposedly contributed so much more to championships than Reese, no one ever acknowledges that many of the best players during Accorsi's tenure were drafted by George Young: Strahan, Armstead, Hamilton, Toomer, Barber, Sehorn, Hilliard.

Guys like me? Lol I wanted Reese to get the Arizona job this year as I thought and still think he’s a good GM who lost his way when he brought in Marc Ross.

So what are you talking about?

going into 2011.

Both Bradshaw and Jacobs rushed for over 2K yards with Bradshaw going for a career high of 1,200.

The problem was that Snee, McKenzie and Diehl all regressed the same year. In 2010 Adam Koetz was filling in nicely for O'Hara before he blew out his knee which forced the Giants to over pay for overrated David Baas.

Seubert was released and retired because he suffered a bad injury in the 2010 finale against the Redskins. Diehl slid inside to LG to make room for Will Beatty at LT.

Not sure they could have foreseen almost all of those guys having down years, coupled with injuries at the same time.

In comment 16019756 christian said:

Quote:

Eric — I agree the 07/08 group had a dash of luck. Diehl and Seubert rising up and having mid/late career peaks as near dominant players is pretty uncommon. I really liked what Reese and Gettleman did to put together the 2012 group. What happened from that point on is where to focus on things falling apart.

imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good.

boothe proved to be a ridiculously cheap and under appreciated super sub. i think he had hit FA a couple times and come back on small deals, and not only did he step in wherever he needed he did it a few different positions. he handled Wilfork in that SB and i cant imagine what wilfork would have done to diehl.

diehl was their original plan to convert back to guard and that was a disaster. boothe not only stepped in he was a major upgrade. before shifting back to lt when beatty's retina detached he was somehow a lot more awful at guard than tackle at that point.

baas was ok and id argue he was a median outcome for any 30ish UFA. kind of like a latter day diet solder year 1. he started but had uneven performances relative to what they paid him, and then got hurt.

i do agree however that bad injury luck (starting from the beatty retina, to snees early retirement, to baas) was a core factor in a lot of the OL problems. if shawn andrews would have worked out that would have solved a lot too.

I had forgotten that, just as Koets was starting to play well in relief, he too went down.

Baas was a good center when healthy. Unfortunately, he was healthy for about six games as a Giant.

the Giants should have started to rebuild the offensive line in 2009 when they had 5 picks in the first 100 selections of the NFL draft and went this way:

Hakeem Nicks (no issues there)
Clint Sintim (lol)
Will Beatty
Ramses Barden
Travis Beckum.

3 guys who contributed nothing and 2 guys who's career had bad injuries.

In comment 16019800 Chris684 said:

Quote:

Guys like me? Lol I wanted Reese to get the Arizona job this year as I thought and still think he’s a good GM who lost his way when he brought in Marc Ross. So what are you talking about?

I assumed you were as wrong on this subject as you generally are. I assumed incorrectly then and I apologize for the error.

In comment 16019812 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

I had forgotten that, just as Koets was starting to play well in relief, he too went down. Baas was a good center when healthy. Unfortunately, he was healthy for about six games as a Giant.

I remember the 49ers fans being very happen he was with the Giants. One of those guys who was healthy as an ox with his former team just gets hurt all the time.

I remember they signed Shawn Andrews in 2010 too but he retired because he needed epidurals just to practice, not even play,

is follow the rushing carries and YPA to tell you the state of the OL from 2005-2010 and then 2011-2017.

2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter.

It's all in the data.

Pugh was decent enough but was injured frequently. Richburg had one really good season but was never that good in other season, and also frequently injured. None of their later round guys ever even became quality backup material - Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Matt McCants, Brandon Mosley, Bobby Hart (despite him inexplicably remaining in the league all this time), Adam Bisnowaty. All were flops. Hernandez looked promising as a rookie then went straight into the toilet.

In comment 16019822 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

is follow the rushing carries and YPA to tell you the state of the OL from 2005-2010 and then 2011-2017. 2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter. It's all in the data.

No one disputes that the line cratered after 2011. Causes and reactions are what is in question here.

In comment 16019824 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Pugh was decent enough but was injured frequently. Richburg had one really good season but was never that good in other season, and also frequently injured. None of their later round guys ever even became quality backup material - Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Matt McCants, Brandon Mosley, Bobby Hart (despite him inexplicably remaining in the league all this time), Adam Bisnowaty. All were flops. Hernandez looked promising as a rookie then went straight into the toilet.

They didn't hit on any and eventually both Reese and Gettlemen threw good money after bad with bozo signings like JD Walton, Geoff Schwartz (who had a great 10 game stretch to revert back to his old self of being injured every year), John Jerry who somehow started a ton of games for them, Adam Snyder.

The proverbial 50 feet of crap that Brad Pitt talks about in Moneyball.

In comment 16019816 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 16019800 Chris684 said: Quote: Guys like me? Lol I wanted Reese to get the Arizona job this year as I thought and still think he’s a good GM who lost his way when he brought in Marc Ross. So what are you talking about? I assumed you were as wrong on this subject as you generally are. I assumed incorrectly then and I apologize for the error.

What have I been wrong about Greg? Please tell me. You are a knucklehead and you represent a very weird faction of NYG fans who don’t like the nice things they have. I know Jets fans and Cowboys fans who respect a player like Eli Manning more than Giants fans like you. Weird to say the least and you give the overall group a bad reputation.

In comment 16019828 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 16019822 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: is follow the rushing carries and YPA to tell you the state of the OL from 2005-2010 and then 2011-2017. 2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter. It's all in the data. No one disputes that the line cratered after 2011. Causes and reactions are what is in question here.

Line really cratered during the 2011 season, just that did enough in pass blocking to where Eli trusted the guys to get it done.

Worst thing they did was not replenish the coffers in the 2012 off season and instead stuck with the same guys cept for Sean Locklear in for McKenzie and even Locklear got hurt too!

.

What bugged me about post-2011 is that they seemed to think that 2011, a season which has almost no direct comparison in Super Bowl era history, was a blueprint for future success. It wasn't. They were very fortunate in a lot of ways in 2011 and it was folly to expect things to break that way again.

I don't mind some Monday morning quarterbacking. They made a lot of a mistakes after 2011, many of which could have been avoided. That doesn't erase the real fact that they had the worst rash of major, career-alterning (or ending) injuries to key players that I've ever seen over the course of 5 or 6 years, beginning even before 2011.

In comment 16019810 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012.

Maybe you're thinking 2011?

In comment 16019850 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 16019810 Eric on Li said: Quote: imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012. Maybe you're thinking 2011?

yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).

hurt us.
I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th.
In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji.
In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine.
Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.

The 2012 Giants intended to start:

Beatty
Boothe
Baas
Snee
Locklear

I think Locklear got hurt the first home game back from Sandy, and Diehl wrapped up the year at LT.

That Giants line was perfectly competent and should have been a good transition group.

Nicks was hurt early in the season and was never the same.

2011 you had a elite QB throwing to a upper tier WR group to overcome the lack of rushing but they did do well in the playoffs and in the SB which was a underlying reason for why they won that game. They kept the leading scoring team off the field in that game.

2012 was better on the ground and they needed to be as Nicks injury was a big factor.

2013 was the great destruction on the OL. 2014 was the DL side.

Giants still not have recovered.

In comment 16019852 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).

Got it.

That group was on fumes. The one thing I do remember was how banged up Baas was, but then how well he played in most of the playoffs, including the Super Bowl.

There was no reason to doubt at age 30 he couldn't hold the fort down for a few years.

he was unstoppable. His career changed when Mark Barron tackled him and he reinjured his foot again.

In comment 16019862 Gruber said:

Quote:

hurt us. I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th. In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji. In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine. Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.

Will Hernandez graded higher than Mark Glowinski this season per PFF, at about 1/8 of the cost. He had a strong rookie season and then regressed, but it was probably just bad coaching all along.

In comment 16019878 McNally's_Nuts said:

Quote:

he was unstoppable. His career changed when Mark Barron tackled him and he reinjured his foot again.

Huge franchise changing loss. It exposed the LOS issue when he went down. The old guard OL and a elite QB make it work for a bit.

But when he was injured it exposed the carnage that happened on the lines.

then expect changes and McCarthy is a offensive HC.

Interesting because Jerry seemed to be grooming him. Maybe Jerry also felt some things went off tilt if he allowed this.

apologies.

that weird ass guy who was starting threads about how John Jerry was the greatest pass blocking guard in the NFL?

That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.

In comment 16019912 NYG07 said:

Quote:

that weird ass guy who was starting threads about how John Jerry was the greatest pass blocking guard in the NFL? That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.

That guy ruled. He moved onto Duke Johson, which was even more bananas.

Players?

All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.

Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.

In comment 16019929 Ivan15 said:

Quote:

Players? All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing. Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.

Another great point which gets ignored.

In comment 16019929 Ivan15 said:

Quote:

Players? All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing. Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.

What was these players impact to the teams they went to?

Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.

The 2014 and 2015 were good offensive teams despite having trash for skill position guys outside of OBJ. It was the defense that cost them games those years.

In 2016, you could make an argument that the line wasn't great, but you also had the beginning of Eli's stage decline, and again the skill position guys were nobodies outside of OBJ (especially after Vereen got injured)

I feel like we get way too caught up in condeming the offensive line for the decade-pluse struggle when it's simply one factor of a bad-luck, poorly run team. In, fact you could find multiple problems in every season:

2012-2013: O-line performance, Nicks injury, Manningham departure, bad RBs (2013)

2014-2015: no skill position playmakers outside of OBJ (Rueben Randle was the no.2 option)

2016-2018: mediocre/injured line play, bad coaching, Eli's performance declines significantly (always hovered around top ten advanced stats in his prime, fell to bottom ten in these years)

2019-2021: Bad everything from o-line to coaching to skill positions plus bad injury luck on their two good skill guys in Jones and Barkley.

In comment 16019824 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Pugh was decent enough but was injured frequently. Richburg had one really good season but was never that good in other season, and also frequently injured. None of their later round guys ever even became quality backup material - Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, Matt McCants, Brandon Mosley, Bobby Hart (despite him inexplicably remaining in the league all this time), Adam Bisnowaty. All were flops. Hernandez looked promising as a rookie then went straight into the toilet.

You mean James (Petrified to be on the field) Brewer (cams caught closeups face behind his facemask), Matt (Wrong Way) McCants, Brandon (WWF) Mosley, Bobby (Best OL) Hart, et al. It wasn't only that all were flops, but the team would not move on from them for multiple seasons too long in most cases. All were on 'scholarship' as Banks would say, and he wasn't wrong. The latter aspect may well be as much on the coaching staff under TC at the time as on JR: instead of making clear to Reese, these guys are not NFL players, somehow that didn't happen, which may be one aspect of the JR-TC divide that only grew. I don't think Schoen would abide such lack of results/productivity.

btw, completely agree your 12:33 re 2011 as the template.

Look at the point totals from 2013 to 2014. OBJ was a big reason for the increase but it was a lot of smoke and mirrors.

2016 the offense took a big dive when TC left and McAdoo implanted his system full throttle. With TC it was a hybrid. That offense I believe scored under 20 points and it was the defense that carried the way. 2015 it was over 25 points.

with reaches and finds, and meh high picks.
DG tried buying an OL. And only drafted 6 OL in 4 years; fortunately 1 was AT

Sean, it's not even up for debate.

The Giants had a viable transition plan in place that worked in 2012. Unfortunately that pretty effective line was ravaged by career ending injuries.

The Giants then invested heavily in a series of lineman the staff championed, who all under achieved.

The facts don't align with the caveman Reese bad, Coughlin goodest mumblings.

My favorite counter argument is when the imminently punchable Kevin Gilbride is invoked. Which is funny, because despite how good of a coordinator he was, you see how hard Coughlin (didn't) fought to keep him.

I think there may be some merit that TC's staff may have had some difficulties adjusting to the new rules practice wise regarding the new CBA.

This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise.

Eli started deteriorating. He lost patience and stopped side-stepping within the pocket, his eyes dropped to the rush and he has lost downfield accuracy. He knew the 2016 defense was solid and were winning games for the Giants, so he gave up on plays easily and was fine with just punting.

The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ.

And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year.

In comment 16019972 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

I think there may be some merit that TC's staff may have had some difficulties adjusting to the new rules practice wise regarding the new CBA. This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise.

LOS, perhaps, but to me that's weak sauce, no? All teams must deal with the same parameters: TC staff couldn't discern good players from crap.

In comment 16019609 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

when Wellington was alive TC had a lot of input. He said he was going to control the LOS in his intro the Giants. Welling said it was "music to his ears". He did just that. Destroyed under Reese. Get over it. Be smarter.

Eh, this "destroyed under Reese" idea needs some nuance.

1. The role of Chris Mara
2. The role of Tom Coughlin

For an example of #2, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers after the Giants dumped him. So how much of that pick was Coughlin involved in? If it were all Reese Coughlin wouldn't have gone near him.

Fstubbs, very good observation about Flowers. He was a Coughlin guy.

In comment 16020005 FStubbs said:

Quote:

In comment 16019609 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: when Wellington was alive TC had a lot of input. He said he was going to control the LOS in his intro the Giants. Welling said it was "music to his ears". He did just that. Destroyed under Reese. Get over it. Be smarter. Eh, this "destroyed under Reese" idea needs some nuance. 1. The role of Chris Mara 2. The role of Tom Coughlin For an example of #2, Coughlin rushed to sign Flowers after the Giants dumped him. So how much of that pick was Coughlin involved in? If it were all Reese Coughlin wouldn't have gone near him.

I have not said TC had a role in it. What I have said is that TC was a LOS coach and believed in winning the physical battle and starting in the 2012 draft it was very unlike TC to go the route they did.

He may have been in on the Flowers pick. That pick was also out of desperation with where the lines were and the later picks were all out of need. Flowers, Pugh and Richburg.

Flowers was a capable NFL player. Just not a left tackkle.

When Resse and McAdoo were throwing Eli under the bus they both chose to protect Flowers. When BM was fired then he said Flowers was not a left tackle.

You can decide for yourself.

In comment 16019567 christian said:

Quote:

And just for old time's sake, the high water mark for the Coughlin Glory Years Line in 2008: LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard LG Suebert: UDFA C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center RG Snee: 2nd round pick LT McKenzie: premium UFA

McKenzie was drafted in the 3rd round by the Jets.

In comment 16019948 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

In comment 16019929 Ivan15 said: Quote: Players? All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing. Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL. What was these players impact to the teams they went to? Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.

____________________________________________
There is no agenda. Just facts and reality.
_______________________________________________

In comment 16019983 chick310 said:

Quote:

Eli started deteriorating. He lost patience and stopped side-stepping within the pocket, his eyes dropped to the rush and he has lost downfield accuracy. He knew the 2016 defense was solid and were winning games for the Giants, so he gave up on plays easily and was fine with just punting. The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ. And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year.

Richburg signed a 5 year 50m contract to play for San Francisco. They don't hand those contracts out to JAGs. It's also not his fault he tore his patellar and also needed hip surgery.

In comment 16019987 ColHowPepper said:

Quote:

In comment 16019972 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: I think there may be some merit that TC's staff may have had some difficulties adjusting to the new rules practice wise regarding the new CBA. This has made it even more important to hit on your picks and it is much more challenging development wise. LOS, perhaps, but to me that's weak sauce, no? All teams must deal with the same parameters: TC staff couldn't discern good players from crap.

I think they may have been better with the old practice regiment in getting more out of less talented players.

Agree, weak sauce but you coach the players you are given and maybe the limited practice time contributed to mot maximizing whatever talent they had.

In comment 16020027 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16019983 chick310 said: Quote: Eli started deteriorating. He lost patience and stopped side-stepping within the pocket, his eyes dropped to the rush and he has lost downfield accuracy. He knew the 2016 defense was solid and were winning games for the Giants, so he gave up on plays easily and was fine with just punting. The Offense in 2013-2015 may have been stronger but tough to suggest it was due to good OLs. In those years they got their head handed to them when facing a good front and played as soft as could be. The Offense was simply more dynamic because Eli was still decent and heaved it up to OBJ a lot. And then when Eli declined he relied on slants to OBJ. And this sentiment that Hernandez, Flowers, Hart, Pugh, and Richburg were "just fine" since they started at some point after leaving the NYGs is comical. Pugh is the only one that really had some consistent play and looked upon by those new respective teams as reliable. The others became JAGs and disposable almost every year. Richburg signed a 5 year 50m contract to play for San Francisco. They don't hand those contracts out to JAGs. It's also not his fault he tore his patellar and also needed hip surgery.

Fair enough Ten Ton Hammer. My comment went too far with respect to Richburg.

with a good agent

https://ninernoise.com/2019/03/09/49ers-expect-center-weston-richburg-2019/

had a couple decent years.

The problem with the Giants was they accepted just being average as a standard.

In the NFCE this just does not play out. It has always been a division where you need to be in the upper tier on the lines.

All those outstanding 80's teams. The Cowboys of the 90's.

The early TC teams.

Now Philly. Dallas has also been much better in the fronts.

Good luck trying to navigate this division and the NFC overall when you are not well above average on your fronts.

is simply not hiring bill callahan (or someone on that level) when they had the chances. most recently he was available for Judge's staff but apparently they chose garrett as OC ahead of callahan as OL coach because the 2 had issues dating back to dallas.

garrett didnt learn the lesson belichek did when scarnechia retired.

drafting and development are both important factors but great coaches cut through that and get the best out of whatever talent they get.

bill callahan (and sporano/houck before that) set the dallas OL on the course its been on for the last decade. i think it was callahan in DC who turned flowers around at guard and got him the big FA contract (which he underperformed after callahan left and helped turn around cleveland's OL). jeff stoutland in philly has done a great job whether in cfb or pros for more than decade. flaherty obviously did a really good job for the majority of his run here and i think the relationship with flowers is what ultimately pushed macadoo to go in another direction in 2015, but obviously there's been a lot of wilderness since then. hopefully bobby johnson is the answer but im not sure that's certain just yet.

In comment 16019948 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

In comment 16019929 Ivan15 said: Quote: Players? All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing. Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL. What was these players impact to the teams they went to? Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.

Agreed LOS...

There is a contingent of people that just don't want to spend resources on the OL... They want splashy players at other positions.

They constantly bring up those failed players and others.

You cannot stop investing in OL positions. Pretty much ever. it is 5 positions not 1. It constantly needs depth and a pipeline of replacement players. 5 players represents 23% of all offensive and defensive players on the field. A teams investment should be similar. Even with the 5 failed players over the past decade plus, the Giants are nowhere near using 23% of draft resources on the OL.

What is more, you cannot just throw up your hands and say, we spent X amount of resources, they didn't work, but we are done anyway... It doesn't work like that, you have to keep investing until you solve the problem, then keep investing for depth and future players.

Lastly, more than 1 thing can be true at the same time.

1) We have not spent enough resource on the position group.
2) When we spent resources on players, we didn't spend wisely, they were not good players (i.e. the 5 mentioned above, even if they are still around, they have never lived up to their draft position and were a poor spend).
3) we need to do a better job of coaching and development...

All of these are true. And you cannot use the latter 2 to excuse not spending resources.

they need more talent on the interior but more than that they need to coach up the talent they have. they have an all pro LT and a RT with dominant traits but glaring weaknesses, a reliable though unspectacular RG, and some guys at LG/C with traits but inconsistency.

im not sure there are any big IOL upgrades in this year's UFA class though I agree you need to be drafting talent on the OL every year. unless there's a zack martin available in round 1 though i dont see any silver bullet beyond getting more out of what they already have once they decide which of the centers they want to resign for 2023. if they are going to draft a rookie to contribute year 1 it's more likely to happen at LG than C.

Eric — I’ll dig up the quote, but I believe it was the TE coach on Judge’s staff last year who made a fascinating point.

He said if you have size and athleticism in high school you become a defender. And if you just have size you end up an offensive lineman. And that carries forward to the NFL.

Reason I think that’s relevant, if the offense line is always up against higher talent opponents, coaching becomes that much more important. Makes sense too from schematic, continuity, sum greater than the parts etc.

I’m sure there are other examples, but Gates is the only overachiever I can remember in the last 10 years.

In comment 16020171 christian said:

Quote:

Eric — I’ll dig up the quote, but I believe it was the TE coach on Judge’s staff last year who made a fascinating point. He said if you have size and athleticism in high school you become a defender. And if you just have size you end up an offensive lineman. And that carries forward to the NFL. Reason I think that’s relevant, if the offense line is always up against higher talent opponents, coaching becomes that much more important. Makes sense too from schematic, continuity, sum greater than the parts etc. I’m sure there are other examples, but Gates is the only overachiever I can remember in the last 10 years.

OL is maybe the most technique important position. That's why someone at like 290 pounds like kelce can be an all pro as long as he has and someone like Evan Neal who has every tool necessary can struggle.

it's also the position that's been hurt among the most performance wise with the lack of padded practices over the last decade's new CBAs. i generally buy that OL play around the league has regressed and there are just fewer good ones to go around - and that it happened as the nyg were in a down cycle picking/developing poorly on top of that. which makes the miss when callahan was available that much more irritating.

In comment 16020124 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

they need more talent on the interior but more than that they need to coach up the talent they have. they have an all pro LT and a RT with dominant traits but glaring weaknesses, a reliable though unspectacular RG, and some guys at LG/C with traits but inconsistency. im not sure there are any big IOL upgrades in this year's UFA class though I agree you need to be drafting talent on the OL every year. unless there's a zack martin available in round 1 though i dont see any silver bullet beyond getting more out of what they already have once they decide which of the centers they want to resign for 2023. if they are going to draft a rookie to contribute year 1 it's more likely to happen at LG than C.

Neal worries me a bit. Haven't given up on him but man we can't have a repeat of his rookie year either. In an ideal world NYG bring in an OG/OT that can slide into that spot if he continues to struggle with Pass Pro. Obviously easier said than done but that would be high on the priority list.

Neal might go the way of Scherff. Scherff was originally drafted as an OT but Wash switched him quickly to OG in preseason when it became eveident he just didnt have quite the feet for OT. Again this may not be the case but we need to hedge our bets a bit....way too many years of poor tackle play hampering our effectiveness on offense.

In comment 16020046 chick310 said:

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with a good agent https://ninernoise.com/2019/03/09/49ers-expect-center-weston-richburg-2019/

he was terrible. he could always be found at Eli's feet after being blown off the line

Agree . I hope Neal works out at tackle but Schoen needs to be prepared in case it doesn’t work out.

Hopefully not the case but the poster above mentioned the previous scholarship mentality the Giants had in not acknowledging poor talent.

Great coaches need NFL talent to develop.

and NEVER accused the Giants of ignoring that part of the roster.

However, it is more important that what most here believe. You also need to continue spending money and assets in that area until it has been solidified.

If you have a leaking roof and you spend money to fix it, but it is still leaking.... you still need to fix it. Saying we already tried to fix it is not acceptable.

In comment 16020210 DefenseWins said:

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and NEVER accused the Giants of ignoring that part of the roster. However, it is more important that what most here believe. You also need to continue spending money and assets in that area until it has been solidified. If you have a leaking roof and you spend money to fix it, but it is still leaking.... you still need to fix it. Saying we already tried to fix it is not acceptable.

This draft is extremely deep at OT . Multiple that can play either OG or OT too. Would have no issue taking one early. Between Ezeudu/Neal and a potential draft pick let the 3 battle it out for the 2 spots: LG/RT. Think Neal is a high probablity stud at OG if he bombs at RT.

In comment 16020185 Eric on Li said:

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it's also the position that's been hurt among the most performance wise with the lack of padded practices over the last decade's new CBAs. i generally buy that OL play around the league has regressed and there are just fewer good ones to go around - and that it happened as the nyg were in a down cycle picking/developing poorly on top of that. which makes the miss when callahan was available that much more irritating.

In retrospect, the offensive staff setup was a total mess under Judge. It’s obvious he didn’t want Garrett, and Colombo was one of, if not the only hire Garrett truly likes picked.

with many late rounders that turned into all pro, credit them for a great scouting and talent evaluation. Unfortunatly the Giants Organization has not hit on any O-line until we finally hit Andrew Thomas, we have made improvements I think Neal will be a very good player, still need to add Center.

appears to be the key to the whole thing. When he plays they win. When he doesn't, they lose. I watched him on a few plays vs. SF, and some of the things he does are unreal.

On a big run by Sanders, they ran a stretch left and pulled LJ all the way across the formation from the RT position.

I don't think I've ever seen an OT do that, and certainly never seen it done as well as Lane did it. It was freakish. Kelce also does some unbelievable things.

They have 2 Hall of Fame-calibre players up front and a great coach. It's a special situation that won't last much longer.

It would be nice if Evan Neal was somewhere near Johnson's level. He has similar athleticism and pedigree. Hoping the light goes on and we see utter domination next year.

In comment 16020991 mittenedman said:

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It would be nice if Evan Neal was somewhere near Johnson's level. He has similar athleticism and pedigree. Hoping the light goes on and we see utter domination next year.

Lane Johnson finished his rookie season ranked as the 26th best right tackle by PFF. Year two, he was suspended for PEDs, but played much better after the 4 game absence but even then, he didn't see his first pro bowl or all pro team until his fourth year!

Plenty of time for Neal.

In comment 16021303 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16020991 mittenedman said: Quote: It would be nice if Evan Neal was somewhere near Johnson's level. He has similar athleticism and pedigree. Hoping the light goes on and we see utter domination next year. Lane Johnson finished his rookie season ranked as the 26th best right tackle by PFF. Year two, he was suspended for PEDs, but played much better after the 4 game absence but even then, he didn't see his first pro bowl or all pro team until his fourth year! Plenty of time for Neal.

Plenty. Guess Neal will still have his bumps, but imagine 2023 will be markedly better. He has the frame, pedigree and winning experience to be a solid as hell RT.