A common theme around BBI is that prior regimes “neglected the OL”. We’ve heard this endlessly with Jerry Reese. It just isn’t true. This is a developmental issue. Let’s look at the Eagles starting OL:
LT: Jordan Mailata (7th round pick in 2018)
LG: Landon Dickerson (2nd round in 2021)
C: Jason Kelce (6th round in 2011)
RG: Isaac Seumalo (3rd round in 2016)
RT: Lane Johnson (*4th overall in 2013)
Lane Johnson was the only player who was a high first rounder. Everyone else was either mid or late round prospects with the exception of Dickerson. Absolutely no difference in what the Giants have invested in the OL.
What do the Eagles have? An elite OL coach in Jeff Stoutland. He’s been there since 2013 and through multiple head coaches.
So, did Reese really “neglect” the line? Or have the NYG scouting and developing been bad? The Giants have funneled through OL coaches like a revolving door including the amateur hour shit from 2020.
Hopefully Bobby Johnson can build these guys up, because it’s never been an issue with “investing in the line”.
And in retrospect the fix it or else direction from Mara to JR portended the coming years of disaster.
IMO, it became kind of a cascade. All the severe injuries to established players constantly opened new holes in the roster that they didn't expect to be there, and they started reaching more and more based on need and Ross' obsession with particular athletic traits.
We also drafted Pugh and Richburg pretty high.
They made the investments. They just didn't work out.
I think both Reese and TC deserve blame for that. And they both deserve credit for winning two Super Bowls here.
Coughlin publicly was more effusive in his praise of Flowers than almost any other rookie i remember.
and i agree everyone shares in the credit/blame. there's no way to quantify exactly who had more say on anything but i think divvying out credit/blame commensurate with whatever their actual titled roles were at the time is a reasonably safe proposition.
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I'll never defend the JR's drafts the back nine of his tenure. He oversaw a series of duds. I was shocked and disappointed he was retained when Coughlin was pushed out.
And in retrospect the fix it or else direction from Mara to JR portended the coming years of disaster.
IMO, it became kind of a cascade. All the severe injuries to established players constantly opened new holes in the roster that they didn't expect to be there, and they started reaching more and more based on need and Ross' obsession with particular athletic traits.
I agree. Ross's shop seemingly could only scout skill players correctly. That's why I would have preferred they just stick to that and stockpile them. Instead of the series of buttholes they picked on the OL.
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Greg, Sean -- look at the pretty good 2012 the devils that are Reese and Ross assembled -- and the comedy of injuries that ensued.
Beatty (27)
Boothe (29)
Baas (31)
Snee (30)
Diehl (32)
Each of those guys effective careers are over in 1-2 years.
If Giants phase out Diehl and Boothe, and Pugh and Richburg work out, things look much different.
Absolutely. This idea that Reese didn’t care about the OL is way off base. Both the Eagles current line and the Giants 2007 line prove this.
How do we know what Reese's cares were on groups before he became GM? He inherited the 2007 OL pretty much in tact no?
Accorsi and Fassell were no OL gurus btw, they were the OG underinvestors of OL starting udfas like Ian Allen all over the place. I think the entire organization sort of lucked into that unit being elite and staying healthy for as long as they did with a sprinkle of strong investments that worked out well like McKenzie/Snee.
Lot of excuses and not anticipating in your post. Perhaps be more careful in who you call a clown. Or don't.
Round 1: Luke Petitgout (1999)
Round 2: Chris Snee (2004)
Round 3: Jeff Hatch (2002) *snicker*
Round 4: Guy Whimper (2006)
Round 5: Toby Myles (1998), Mike Rosenthal (1999), David Diehl (2003)
Round 6: none
Round 7: Ben "tough as a boot" Fricke (1998), Wayne Lucier (2003), Drew Stronjy (2004)
That's ten players in nine drafts, with the majority of them in rounds 5 and 7. One All Pro in Snee, one long time starter in Diehl. Petitgout was a disappointment. Jeff Hatch was a joke. Whimper and Ronsenthal hung on for a while mostly as backups. Myles, Fricke, and Lucier were fringe players with brief careers. Stronjy never made a roster.
So that's the OL draft investments made by the much-lauded Ernie Accorsi. Most of the better linemen of his time were free agent acquisitions - Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Ron Stone, and Dusty Ziegler from the 2000 Super Bowl OL, McKenzie and O'Hara from the Coughlin championship OL - and hitting the jackpot with UDFA Rich Seubert. The level of investment really wasn't any different than it was under Reese.
I really liked what Reese and Gettleman did to put together the 2012 group. What happened from that point on is where to focus on things falling apart.
That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).
That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).
Shaun Andrews also played in 2010, played well, and got hurt.
Round 1: Luke Petitgout (1999)
Round 2: Chris Snee (2004)
Round 3: Jeff Hatch (2002) *snicker*
Round 4: Guy Whimper (2006)
Round 5: Toby Myles (1998), Mike Rosenthal (1999), David Diehl (2003)
Round 6: none
Round 7: Ben "tough as a boot" Fricke (1998), Wayne Lucier (2003), Drew Stronjy (2004)
That's ten players in nine drafts, with the majority of them in rounds 5 and 7. One All Pro in Snee, one long time starter in Diehl. Petitgout was a disappointment. Jeff Hatch was a joke. Whimper and Ronsenthal hung on for a while mostly as backups. Myles, Fricke, and Lucier were fringe players with brief careers. Stronjy never made a roster.
So that's the OL draft investments made by the much-lauded Ernie Accorsi. Most of the better linemen of his time were free agent acquisitions - Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Ron Stone, and Dusty Ziegler from the 2000 Super Bowl OL, McKenzie and O'Hara from the Coughlin championship OL - and hitting the jackpot with UDFA Rich Seubert. The level of investment really wasn't any different than it was under Reese.
Greg, who are Giants fans allowed to like without being called out as "worshippers"?
Apparently Tom Coughlin was a scrub, Ernie Accorsi was a hack who didn't know his way around talent. What other historical Giants figures who directly contributed to and/or oversaw 2 championship teams are no good?
That's what was rather unique about the later Reese years. Of course every team deals with injuries, but most players recover and come back to contribute again. On the Giants, however, that was more the exception than the norm. Many good players would get injured and either their career would end completely or their ability was severely degraded (Hakeem Nicks being the most prominent example of this).
It's excuses. You have to anticipate and be prepared.
They had a outstanding OL that they never drafted well enough to replace.
As each one fell off they then had to go to FA to replace.
The issue was you had a QB on a expensive contract and you needed to be cost effective to account for this.
Gilbride spilled the beans after they drafted Pugh that the coaching staff had warned the front office about the impending doom.
Then the panicked and reached for players to overcome what had been neglected.
It's not very difficult to understand.
LT Diehl: 5th round converted guard
LG Suebert: UDFA
C O'hara: UFA converted guard/center
RG Snee: 2nd round pick
LT McKenzie: premium UFA
SB XXI
2 UDFA, 2 8th rounders, and Karl Nelson (3rd)
I never said Ernie anticipated. I have said that TC when he came in changed the commitment to the lines and he had the backing to be able to do that. Snee and McKenzie were not something that Ernie had ever done.
Not sure where this Ernie thing is coming from regarding me.
According to guys like you, Jerry Reese was a disaster despite actually being the GM for two championship teams.
Hey, here's something else to chuckle about - for all the blather about how Accorsi supposedly contributed so much more to championships than Reese, no one ever acknowledges that many of the best players during Accorsi's tenure were drafted by George Young: Strahan, Armstead, Hamilton, Toomer, Barber, Sehorn, Hilliard.
Bad things: other people's fault
I too will resurrect my own classics: Tom Coughlin had the greatest gig in the world in the eyes of certain people. He deserved absolutely all of the credit for success and absolutely none of the criticism for failure.
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Apparently Tom Coughlin was a scrub, Ernie Accorsi was a hack who didn't know his way around talent. What other historical Giants figures who directly contributed to and/or oversaw 2 championship teams are no good?
According to guys like you, Jerry Reese was a disaster despite actually being the GM for two championship teams.
Hey, here's something else to chuckle about - for all the blather about how Accorsi supposedly contributed so much more to championships than Reese, no one ever acknowledges that many of the best players during Accorsi's tenure were drafted by George Young: Strahan, Armstead, Hamilton, Toomer, Barber, Sehorn, Hilliard.
Guys like me? Lol I wanted Reese to get the Arizona job this year as I thought and still think he’s a good GM who lost his way when he brought in Marc Ross.
So what are you talking about?
Both Bradshaw and Jacobs rushed for over 2K yards with Bradshaw going for a career high of 1,200.
The problem was that Snee, McKenzie and Diehl all regressed the same year. In 2010 Adam Koetz was filling in nicely for O'Hara before he blew out his knee which forced the Giants to over pay for overrated David Baas.
Seubert was released and retired because he suffered a bad injury in the 2010 finale against the Redskins. Diehl slid inside to LG to make room for Will Beatty at LT.
Not sure they could have foreseen almost all of those guys having down years, coupled with injuries at the same time.
I really liked what Reese and Gettleman did to put together the 2012 group. What happened from that point on is where to focus on things falling apart.
imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good.
boothe proved to be a ridiculously cheap and under appreciated super sub. i think he had hit FA a couple times and come back on small deals, and not only did he step in wherever he needed he did it a few different positions. he handled Wilfork in that SB and i cant imagine what wilfork would have done to diehl.
diehl was their original plan to convert back to guard and that was a disaster. boothe not only stepped in he was a major upgrade. before shifting back to lt when beatty's retina detached he was somehow a lot more awful at guard than tackle at that point.
baas was ok and id argue he was a median outcome for any 30ish UFA. kind of like a latter day diet solder year 1. he started but had uneven performances relative to what they paid him, and then got hurt.
i do agree however that bad injury luck (starting from the beatty retina, to snees early retirement, to baas) was a core factor in a lot of the OL problems. if shawn andrews would have worked out that would have solved a lot too.
Baas was a good center when healthy. Unfortunately, he was healthy for about six games as a Giant.
Hakeem Nicks (no issues there)
Clint Sintim (lol)
Will Beatty
Ramses Barden
Travis Beckum.
3 guys who contributed nothing and 2 guys who's career had bad injuries.
So what are you talking about?
I assumed you were as wrong on this subject as you generally are. I assumed incorrectly then and I apologize for the error.
Baas was a good center when healthy. Unfortunately, he was healthy for about six games as a Giant.
I remember the 49ers fans being very happen he was with the Giants. One of those guys who was healthy as an ox with his former team just gets hurt all the time.
I remember they signed Shawn Andrews in 2010 too but he retired because he needed epidurals just to practice, not even play,
2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter.
It's all in the data.
2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter.
It's all in the data.
No one disputes that the line cratered after 2011. Causes and reactions are what is in question here.
They didn't hit on any and eventually both Reese and Gettlemen threw good money after bad with bozo signings like JD Walton, Geoff Schwartz (who had a great 10 game stretch to revert back to his old self of being injured every year), John Jerry who somehow started a ton of games for them, Adam Snyder.
The proverbial 50 feet of crap that Brad Pitt talks about in Moneyball.
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Guys like me? Lol I wanted Reese to get the Arizona job this year as I thought and still think he’s a good GM who lost his way when he brought in Marc Ross.
So what are you talking about?
I assumed you were as wrong on this subject as you generally are. I assumed incorrectly then and I apologize for the error.
What have I been wrong about Greg? Please tell me. You are a knucklehead and you represent a very weird faction of NYG fans who don’t like the nice things they have. I know Jets fans and Cowboys fans who respect a player like Eli Manning more than Giants fans like you. Weird to say the least and you give the overall group a bad reputation.
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is follow the rushing carries and YPA to tell you the state of the OL from 2005-2010 and then 2011-2017.
2012 was probably the best of the later years but overall you can see the physicality of the lines falter.
It's all in the data.
No one disputes that the line cratered after 2011. Causes and reactions are what is in question here.
Line really cratered during the 2011 season, just that did enough in pass blocking to where Eli trusted the guys to get it done.
Worst thing they did was not replenish the coffers in the 2012 off season and instead stuck with the same guys cept for Sean Locklear in for McKenzie and even Locklear got hurt too!
I don't mind some Monday morning quarterbacking. They made a lot of a mistakes after 2011, many of which could have been avoided. That doesn't erase the real fact that they had the worst rash of major, career-alterning (or ending) injuries to key players that I've ever seen over the course of 5 or 6 years, beginning even before 2011.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012.
Maybe you're thinking 2011?
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imo the 2012 group was actually even luckier to do what they did. that 2012 team was last in the league in rushing and would have been co-defendants with justin smith in the eli manning murder trial. the 2007-2011 group was legitimately very good.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I see the Giants as 14th in the NFL in rush yards and 7th in YPA on 2012.
Maybe you're thinking 2011?
yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).
I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th.
In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji.
In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine.
Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.
Beatty
Boothe
Baas
Snee
Locklear
I think Locklear got hurt the first home game back from Sandy, and Diehl wrapped up the year at LT.
That Giants line was perfectly competent and should have been a good transition group.
2011 you had a elite QB throwing to a upper tier WR group to overcome the lack of rushing but they did do well in the playoffs and in the SB which was a underlying reason for why they won that game. They kept the leading scoring team off the field in that game.
2012 was better on the ground and they needed to be as Nicks injury was a big factor.
2013 was the great destruction on the OL. 2014 was the DL side.
Giants still not have recovered.
yes meant the 2012 SB group (which was 2011).
Got it.
That group was on fumes. The one thing I do remember was how banged up Baas was, but then how well he played in most of the playoffs, including the Super Bowl.
There was no reason to doubt at age 30 he couldn't hold the fort down for a few years.
I thought we should have used an available pick on center Tyler Biadasz in 2020. He was the last pick in the 4th round, #146 over all. We went with Matt Peart in the 3rd and Darnay Holmes in the 4th.
In 2019 Dave used only one 7th round pick, on tackle George Aasafo-Adeji.
In 2021, we only had six picks and didn't use any of them on the OLine.
Gettleman's record for strengthening the OLine was poor. Anyone pointing out he drafted Andrew Thomas, well, I don't think you have to be Einstein to hit the mark with a first round pick on a lineman. It's the mid-rounds you need to score with that makes the difference.
Will Hernandez graded higher than Mark Glowinski this season per PFF, at about 1/8 of the cost. He had a strong rookie season and then regressed, but it was probably just bad coaching all along.
Huge franchise changing loss. It exposed the LOS issue when he went down. The old guard OL and a elite QB make it work for a bit.
But when he was injured it exposed the carnage that happened on the lines.
Interesting because Jerry seemed to be grooming him. Maybe Jerry also felt some things went off tilt if he allowed this.
That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.
That was one of the most bizarre things I have see on here.
That guy ruled. He moved onto Duke Johson, which was even more bananas.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
Another great point which gets ignored.
All 5 left the Giants and went on to start on other teams. Some may have been backups and asked to fill in, but all started, some were injured but many are still playing.
Much as I did not like Ross, it wasn’t bad scouting of the o-line. It was lack of player development. I’m hoping the Bobby Johnson can keep this from happening to Lemieux and Peart. If those players fail with the Giants, it should be because they just couldn’t hack in the NFL.
What was these players impact to the teams they went to?
Seems some are more concerned with a agenda then facing the reality the Giants were just very poor at identifying OL talent for a very long time.
In 2016, you could make an argument that the line wasn't great, but you also had the beginning of Eli's stage decline, and again the skill position guys were nobodies outside of OBJ (especially after Vereen got injured)
I feel like we get way too caught up in condeming the offensive line for the decade-pluse struggle when it's simply one factor of a bad-luck, poorly run team. In, fact you could find multiple problems in every season:
2012-2013: O-line performance, Nicks injury, Manningham departure, bad RBs (2013)
2014-2015: no skill position playmakers outside of OBJ (Rueben Randle was the no.2 option)
2016-2018: mediocre/injured line play, bad coaching, Eli's performance declines significantly (always hovered around top ten advanced stats in his prime, fell to bottom ten in these years)
2019-2021: Bad everything from o-line to coaching to skill positions plus bad injury luck on their two good skill guys in Jones and Barkley.