There are few threads today so - DJ time: deal or no deal?

is correct overall.

I'll add that Herbert's 2022 season is a down year by HIS STANDARDS because his first two years were historical. Hell, his first three years in aggregate are historical.

Furthermore, Herbert played this year with broken rib cartilage and, it seems, some games with a torn labrum in his left shoulder. It's been reported he's getting surgery to fix the labrum.

In essence, posters are taking Herbert's "off year" and comparing to Jones' best year to create the illusion that Jones may be as good as Herbert. While I do admire the creativity, it's just a bad idea.

In comment 16021057 bw in dc said:

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is correct overall. I'll add that Herbert's 2022 season is a down year by HIS STANDARDS because his first two years were historical. Hell, his first three years in aggregate are historical. Furthermore, Herbert played this year with broken rib cartilage and, it seems, some games with a torn labrum in his left shoulder. It's been reported he's getting surgery to fix the labrum. In essence, posters are taking Herbert's "off year" and comparing to Jones' best year to create the illusion that Jones may be as good as Herbert. While I do admire the creativity, it's just a bad idea.

You are also not comparing apples to oranges. The stats cannot be close to being comparable. You have a passing offense vs a running offense limited by the quality of the WRs to start the year(and Jones building into the offense). Reality is Daboll was changing Jones throughout the year and looking for WRs that he could trust to participate in the offense. There was a huge learning curve. Basically Jones was not really "allowed" to start throwing until the 2nd Washington game.
You could realistically throw out the past two years for Jones as they were wasted in Judge's putrid offense. It is undeniable what Daboll, Kafka and Tierney did to correct Jones and improve him. He was clearly deficient in many parts of his game.
Is Herbert the better QB - I'd say marginally yes. I think Herbert is quicker to make a read and deliver the ball - he also has vastly superior targets. However, Jones improved almost shockingly toward the end of the year.

In comment 16021051 allstarjim said:

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Are you really comparing DJ to Joe Montana? Out of all the absurd things to say, Dan Marino and Joe Montana comparisons to Herbert and DJ? REALLY? All I have to say is wow, dude.

Are you so limited intellectually that you need to resort to blatant strawman? You are usually a better poster.

In comment 16021115 section125 said:

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You are also not comparing apples to oranges. The stats cannot be close to being comparable. You have a passing offense vs a running offense limited by the quality of the WRs to start the year(and Jones building into the offense). Reality is Daboll was changing Jones throughout the year and looking for WRs that he could trust to participate in the offense. There was a huge learning curve. Basically Jones was not really "allowed" to start throwing until the 2nd Washington game. You could realistically throw out the past two years for Jones as they were wasted in Judge's putrid offense. It is undeniable what Daboll, Kafka and Tierney did to correct Jones and improve him. He was clearly deficient in many parts of his game. Is Herbert the better QB - I'd say marginally yes. I think Herbert is quicker to make a read and deliver the ball - he also has vastly superior targets. However, Jones improved almost shockingly toward the end of the year.

I didn't bring up stats. Re-read what I wrote. I simply said this was Herbert's poorest season of his career. And for Jones, this was the best year of his career. Can we agree on that?

If you are giving Jones mulligans for his second and third years, can I give Herbert a mulligan for this year? ;)

In comment 16021185 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 16021051 allstarjim said: Quote: Are you really comparing DJ to Joe Montana? Out of all the absurd things to say, Dan Marino and Joe Montana comparisons to Herbert and DJ? REALLY? All I have to say is wow, dude. Are you so limited intellectually that you need to resort to blatant strawman? You are usually a better poster.

Where's the strawman? Did you not say Dan Marino or Joe Montana?

Why bring up those players? As if they are at all germane to the topic? Because DJ won a single playoff game?

In comment 16021188 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16021115 section125 said: Quote: I didn't bring up stats. Re-read what I wrote. I simply said this was Herbert's poorest season of his career. And for Jones, this was the best year of his career. Can we agree on that? If you are giving Jones mulligans for his second and third years, can I give Herbert a mulligan for this year? ;)

If you did not use stats, how did you come to your conclusion - how did you conclude that this was Herbert's worst season? (Your reply is approaching Producer level - ha ha j/k) You may not have stated stats, but your thought process certainly included them or else there is no comparison possible.

No, Herbert's "poor" year vs what Jones went through his previous two seasons are not comparable(and they are just different) - they are simply not by any logical conclusion. One had a smart, competent HC, OC and supporting players. The other had an incompetent HC and a overmatched and strangulated OC with a simplistic offensive plan with lack of direction and creativity, plus a lack of supporting players. I say this because look what the current coaching staff did vs the previous staff.

And, QBs(players) are allowed to have off years because injuries occur and they are not machines - so Herbert does have some excuse/allowance for being a bit off.

It appears, that beside his own limitations, Jones was absolutely a victim of poor coaching. Take away the turnovers, and Jones 1st year was very good. What happened between year 1 and year 4?

In comment 16021115 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 16021057 bw in dc said: Quote: is correct overall. I'll add that Herbert's 2022 season is a down year by HIS STANDARDS because his first two years were historical. Hell, his first three years in aggregate are historical. Furthermore, Herbert played this year with broken rib cartilage and, it seems, some games with a torn labrum in his left shoulder. It's been reported he's getting surgery to fix the labrum. In essence, posters are taking Herbert's "off year" and comparing to Jones' best year to create the illusion that Jones may be as good as Herbert. While I do admire the creativity, it's just a bad idea. You are also not comparing apples to oranges. The stats cannot be close to being comparable. You have a passing offense vs a running offense limited by the quality of the WRs to start the year(and Jones building into the offense). Reality is Daboll was changing Jones throughout the year and looking for WRs that he could trust to participate in the offense. There was a huge learning curve. Basically Jones was not really "allowed" to start throwing until the 2nd Washington game. You could realistically throw out the past two years for Jones as they were wasted in Judge's putrid offense. It is undeniable what Daboll, Kafka and Tierney did to correct Jones and improve him. He was clearly deficient in many parts of his game. Is Herbert the better QB - I'd say marginally yes. I think Herbert is quicker to make a read and deliver the ball - he also has vastly superior targets. However, Jones improved almost shockingly toward the end of the year.

The Chargers just could not run the ball, so passing (especially short passing) was the core of their offense, by necessity.

That said, I don't think very many teams would willingly favor a run-heavy approach with Herbert at QB. His physical skills are just too enticing to make his arm a secret weapon. Conversely, DJ's running skills make a run-heavy approach more appealing, but regardless of nostalgia for the bruising style of yesteryear, I don't think most coaches would opt for a run-heavy system if their passing game was on equal footing.

Herbert gets more passing attempts partially because the Chargers running game is nonexistent. But that's also at least partially due to the fact that of course you're going to run your offense through Herbert's arm if your offense has Herbert's arm on it. If DJ had Herbert's arm, Daboll would probably lean on the passing game a bit more also (even with the WR group we finished the year with).

And to be fair, if Herbert had DJ's legs (although JH is hardly a statue pocket passer), there would probably be designed runs and options in the LAC offense like we see in the NYG offense.

So I get it, but it's not really apples to oranges if you have arm talent above athleticism on your list of desirable QB traits (as I assume most do, or else Jackson and Hurts wouldn't be so widely maligned here). Part of the reason why Herbert has way more passing attempts than Jones is because Herbert is a significantly better thrower of the football than Jones.

In comment 16021205 section125 said:

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It appears, that beside his own limitations, Jones was absolutely a victim of poor coaching. Take away the turnovers, and Jones 1st year was very good. What happened between year 1 and year 4?

I would say that when you "take away the turnovers," DJ's scoring production is cut almost in half. I think it's misleading to present this past season as the outcome of "what if you took DJ's rookie year but just deleted the turnovers?"

There are obviously other factors, but we have no evidence that DJ would be able to replicate the scoring output of his rookie year while also replicating the turnover suppression of this past year, because it hasn't happened over any length of time.

In comment 16020759 JerseyCityJoe said:

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Straight up. I take Jones.

If Justin Herbert didn’t play a down next year, Jones would need to throw 39 touchdown passes to pass Herbert’s total in three years even with a down year last year. Jones 17 game average is 19, so it’s entirely possibly it would take Jones more than two years to pass him.

QBs I'd take over DJ RN without a second thought:

Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, LJax, Hurts, Herbert, & Trevor.

RN='right now'. I'm obviously not saying DJ is going down as a better QB than TB12, Rodgers, Russ, etc.

I'd lump DJ in with the Dak's, Kirk's, Kyler's of the NFL. For example, I don't think DJ is as athletically gifted as say Kyler Murray, but I think he's better suited for success with Dabs & seems like a harder worker/more committed to the game than Kyler. I doubt there's a study clause in Jones' next contract.

an a$$hole and a megalomaniac for daring to say what almost every football observer agrees, that Herbert is better than Jones.

Megalomaniac is a novel one. For literally writing a mainstream opinion. Do we all know what megalomaniac means? I'd love to know who you voted for Walker -- if you think my behavior here looks like megalomania to you.

In comment 16020975 section125 said:

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In comment 16020936 Producer said: Quote: I really enjoy chatting with you. But only on BBI do folks get called names for espousing uncontroversial positions. By the way, i didn't cherry pick NFL.com ranks, they were literally the first one I looked at. I'm out and about but later on I'll post here another 6. They will be the first 6 I click on, i promise. What will it mean? Simply it will tell us something about the perception of the two players. I think Herbert will be well ahead of Jones on every list. Perception. That's all I'm talking about. Have a good day section125. I'll post my list later You are what I said your are. You post crap, when called out on it you either slink away or you deflect to another topic and drop a condescending line to be annoying. Perception - there you go - a term for opinion based on belief. Deflect and slink away. You are very good at it. Save your perceptions as if they hold water.

It turns out you are a nasty piece of work who is mean to people you are engaging with. Do you do this irl, or just on the internet where somebody can't retaliate to your face. From your reasoning, to lack of self-control, it is clear you can't hold my jockstrap and you are frankly not worth the time or effort.

Herbert is a better QB talent wise than DJ. Come on here. That said, do I think DJ is a better situation with Dabs/Kafka than Herbert is with an incompetent coach in Staley? Yes. I'll be interested to see how Herbert does with Kellen Moore as OC. Is Moore calling plays?

than Herbert.

How about this. Herbert was in a dysfunctional offense. Herbert was basically the OC. Jones had an offensive guru who had to convert the offense to run-first and scheme around his QBs limitations. If Daboll had Herbert, we wouldn't have a 1975 offense. Daboll got Jones from garbage to passable. That's what we have, a passable QB, and man y of you just don't want to face the reality.

And now you want to overpay him. If Schoen gives Jones $40M/yr, unless there is an out clause in the near term, I'll be close to done with him. You can't give decent players, elite dollars, and hope to compete for championships.

In comment 16021269 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Herbert is a better QB talent wise than DJ. Come on here. That said, do I think DJ is a better situation with Dabs/Kafka than Herbert is with an incompetent coach in Staley? Yes. I'll be interested to see how Herbert does with Kellen Moore as OC. Is Moore calling plays?

Imagine if Daboll had Herbert. What would the offense look like?

In comment 16021213 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16021205 section125 said: Quote: It appears, that beside his own limitations, Jones was absolutely a victim of poor coaching. Take away the turnovers, and Jones 1st year was very good. What happened between year 1 and year 4? I would say that when you "take away the turnovers," DJ's scoring production is cut almost in half. I think it's misleading to present this past season as the outcome of "what if you took DJ's rookie year but just deleted the turnovers?" There are obviously other factors, but we have no evidence that DJ would be able to replicate the scoring output of his rookie year while also replicating the turnover suppression of this past year, because it hasn't happened over any length of time.

It is a simple post that Jones had a good rookie year aside from the turnovers and even then it was more his fumbles that were the worst part, INTs happen. They did happen, but you missed the point that he was making big plays before Schurmur was fired. It was clearly obvious that he could throw the football as he lead the league in deep throw accuracy. He didn't get the moniker Danny Dimes because of his salary.

Why would you say here is no evidence that he could replicate his scoring? The logical conclusion would be that a rookie would get better in subsequent seasons all things being equal. Yes injury to himself or WRs could derail it. But given the SAME coaching it is logical to conclude he would cut down on TOs and his throwing would also improve with natural progression in technique and awareness - experience. Yes there are QBs that start strong and flame out or do not improve.

Obviously the hiring of Judge and Garrett derailed his improvement. They restricted his growth, put in a set of simple to cover pass routes and did nothing to create an offense that was complex enough to confuse the defense. If you are told to not take chances on deep throws(and basically not even run them any) and to protect the ball at all costs - what do you think will happen? And it did - nothing or even regression. He sucked as did the offense.

Now, Daboll comes in, evaluates what Jones was capable of. Steadily increases the complexity as he finds WRs that can read defenses, run proper routes and both WRs and QB are on the same page. And you get the last 3/4 games of the year, sans The Eagles debacle. Next step is to get WRs that put some fear in the DBs and an oline that is capable of blocking.

Could this be as far as Jones gets in development? Yes, it is possible. I doubt it and obviously Schoen and Daboll think he has more in there. He will never be Burrow or Mahomes - they are unicorns. I doubt he becomes Allen(size and arm strength). Lawrence may get in there with Mahomes and Burrow. He doesn't have Lamar's running ability. Maybe he never gets to be as good as Herbert(can be close). But he can run, he has more than sufficient arm and is uber bright. Can he overcome some possible slowness in reads - this is his bugaboo. I thought he was massively better getting the ball out on time by year's end. I never thought he would do that.
Nothing is ever definite, but after what I saw Daboll, Kafka and Tierney did this year I would say that years two and three were lost years in his development. If you don't know what you don't know and nobody shows you, how can you learn and improve?

Remember - I wanted them to draft a new QB this off season or replace him. Based on last year, and half way through this year, I wanted someone else. I was all for not taking the 5th year option. I still have some reservations because bad Daniel still exists in there. Can Daboll exorcise that part? I am not certain but I sure as hell want to see if Daboll can finish what he started.

NFC East:
PHI: Hurts - yes
DAL: Dak - no (not a big enough upgrade)
WSH: no

NFC North:
GB: Rodgers - no (age)
MIN: Cousins - no
CHI: Fields - no (need to see more)
DET: Goff - yes

NFC South:
ATL: no
NO: no
CAR: no
TB: Brady - no (age)

NFC West:
SF: no
ARI: Murray - no (he’s talented, but don’t trust him)
SEA: no
LAR: Stafford - yes (health a concern though)

AFC East:
BUF: Allen - yes
MIA: Tua - no (injuries and not enough of an upgrade)
NE: no
NYJ: no

AFC North:
PIT: Pickett - no (still an unknown, high floor guy though it seems)
BAL: Jackson - yes
CLE: Watson - no (too much baggage)
CIN: Burrow - yes

AFC South:
JAX: Lawrence: yes
TEN: no
IND: no
HOU: no

AFC West:
KC: Mahomes - yes
LAC: Herbert - yes
LAV: no
DEN: Wilson - no

Derek Carr & Jimmy Garoppolo are not a big enough upgrade for me to move off Jones.

Greg Cosell made a good point to Cowherd last month. It is a lot to bring in a new QB and teach him a system, that doesn’t happen overnight. So, Jones is going to get the nod imo unless the upgrade is significant.

So, I would trade Jones straight up for 9 QB’s. Some are debatable. You could counter Goff & Stafford. You could argue Dak & Carr. This exercise puts Jones in a conversation for top 12ish QB. With that said, I’m still wary of giving him $40M AAV.

In comment 16021330 Sean said:

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NFC East: PHI: Hurts - yes DAL: Dak - no (not a big enough upgrade) WSH: no NFC North: GB: Rodgers - no (age) MIN: Cousins - no CHI: Fields - no (need to see more) DET: Goff - yes NFC South: ATL: no NO: no CAR: no TB: Brady - no (age) NFC West: SF: no ARI: Murray - no (he’s talented, but don’t trust him) SEA: no LAR: Stafford - yes (health a concern though) AFC East: BUF: Allen - yes MIA: Tua - no (injuries and not enough of an upgrade) NE: no NYJ: no AFC North: PIT: Pickett - no (still an unknown, high floor guy though it seems) BAL: Jackson - yes CLE: Watson - no (too much baggage) CIN: Burrow - yes AFC South: JAX: Lawrence: yes TEN: no IND: no HOU: no AFC West: KC: Mahomes - yes LAC: Herbert - yes LAV: no DEN: Wilson - no Derek Carr & Jimmy Garoppolo are not a big enough upgrade for me to move off Jones. Greg Cosell made a good point to Cowherd last month. It is a lot to bring in a new QB and teach him a system, that doesn’t happen overnight. So, Jones is going to get the nod imo unless the upgrade is significant. So, I would trade Jones straight up for 9 QB’s. Some are debatable. You could counter Goff & Stafford. You could argue Dak & Carr. This exercise puts Jones in a conversation for top 12ish QB. With that said, I’m still wary of giving him $40M AAV.

With respect I say, I think you are asking the wrong question.

It shouldn't be about who is better than who, which will reshuffle every year anyway. Maybe this year you like Jones better than Carr, JimmyG and Wilson, but maybe next year you don't.

The question we should all be asking, imo, is Jones good enough to win a championship, especially at a high salary. That's more of a binary. What good is the 9th, 12th or 15th best QB is you still can't win trophies with him. Or is it good enough to be a mediocre team that qualifies for the playoffs half the time and gets bounced in the divisional or wild card round, as an expected outcome?

That’s where I struggle. I don’t like Jones enough to give him a blank check, so I’m saying right there he’s limited. You can’t overpay QB’s like Mahomes, they talent is overwhelming.

But, Jones is good enough to get in the playoffs and has won a road playoff game. Would I rather that than the Jets, Falcons or Saints? I’d rather have Jones than have no one.

It’s hard to find that guy. So hopefully the contract is reasonable and then Schoen can pounce when the time is right to upgrade.

In comment 16021352 Sean said:

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That’s where I struggle. I don’t like Jones enough to give him a blank check, so I’m saying right there he’s limited. You can’t overpay QB’s like Mahomes, they talent is overwhelming. But, Jones is good enough to get in the playoffs and has won a road playoff game. Would I rather that than the Jets, Falcons or Saints? I’d rather have Jones than have no one. It’s hard to find that guy. So hopefully the contract is reasonable and then Schoen can pounce when the time is right to upgrade.

That's probably where we part ways, and I usually agree with your takes.

I think you have to be bold enough to "not have a guy" when you are looking for THE GUY. There are always ways to get a QB. The draft, trades, free agency. The 49ers got Purdy in the last round, we can do things like that too. Daboll and Schoen seem smart enough.

I'm not someone who loves half measures. I know they won't do this, but I would look to trade Jones now, at his peak value. I would tag and trade if I had to. Look at Philly, they haven't been scared to make dramatic shifts. It's working for them and they are kicking our asses. Schoen and Daboll need to be unafraid. If they don't think they will win a championship with Jones they need to move on. Philly moved on from a QB who played at an MVP level their championship year. That was only 6 years ago. They moved on from the coach. Now they have a new coach and QB. People here think Roseman is going to struggle with the cap next season. Maybe, but so far he is a step ahead of the league.

Signing Daniel Jones to elite dollars will be the most Giants thing ever. Let's hope we don't make that mistake, if Schoen and Daboll are unconvinced about his quality.

That is it. I am interested to see how Jones progresses further and thought he took meaningful steps this year. He played big in several 4th QTRS bringing the team back. He was clutch in executing the offense and made big plays on many third downs at key times.

What I really like is that he has had a really challenging environment his first four years and he didn't break in a very tough market and his 5th year was not guaranteed. This is very meaningful to me and a good indicator for handling big moments that hopefully happen more often in the playoffs. Getting a playoff win was huge and the late season games to get into the playoffs.

I don't like expensive QB's but its where they are now.

Now he has to take the next step and show more in the passing game and Schoen needs to get the pieces. You need a good OL in this division as this season showed the pesky LOS situation still exists. Then WR help and I be all for another TE.

I think Herbert is a bit over rated and he also plays in the AFC. Historically they have been the more high flying offenses over decades often stomped when they meet those physical NFC teams or AFC teams who are built like NFC teams. LAC would be better served building a better D and getting a run game if they want to win a SB. Less passer yardage but a better team.

This year LAC was trounced by San Fran and Herbert had a rough day. Last year the Ravens did the same thing. When the Giants played Dallas, Philly and WFT you could make a case all of those D's were top 5.

The NFC has one more SB than the AFC. NE, Baltimore, Steelers and Raiders won 17 of those. Good OL's with pretty balanced offenses who play D. I am curious to see the trend moving forward.

When I look at QB's I consider this as part of the evaluation.

More important than Jones I hope JS/BD go the right way in continuing to build this team. I don't see the NFCE softening in the next couple years. Giants need to be ready to give Jones the best chance imv.

I still hope this contract is either something they can get out of after a couple years.

That is fair and I would understand that strategy.

If anything, the Niners have proved to be aggressive at QB always. Like the Niners and Eagles, I think the Giants should draft a QB every year. That infuriates fans, but always need a pipeline at the position. Look at SF, they trade up for Lance, and still draft Purdy the next year in the 7th round. It paid off.

In comment 16021369 Sean said:

Quote:

That is fair and I would understand that strategy. If anything, the Niners have proved to be aggressive at QB always. Like the Niners and Eagles, I think the Giants should draft a QB every year. That infuriates fans, but always need a pipeline at the position. Look at SF, they trade up for Lance, and still draft Purdy the next year in the 7th round. It paid off.

100%

Are we going to ignore what Herbert did against a Chiefs defense that held Cincinnati in check? In fact he’s been real good against the Chiefs nearly every time out

Herbert’s QB rating against some of the best teams in football over his three years:

Chiefs: 107.3
Cincinnati: 118
Buffalo: 75
Dallas: 87
Pittsburgh: 116 (top 10 pass defense last year, even if they were only 9-7-1)
Tampa: 138

Slightly overrated huh?

In comment 16021373 ajr2456 said:

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Are we going to ignore what Herbert did against a Chiefs defense that held Cincinnati in check? In fact he’s been real good against the Chiefs nearly every time out Herbert’s QB rating against some of the best teams in football over his three years: Chiefs: 107.3 Cincinnati: 118 Buffalo: 75 Dallas: 87 Pittsburgh: 116 (top 10 pass defense last year, even if they were only 9-7-1) Tampa: 138 Slightly overrated huh?

Yes for me. I'll just point out a few game but I am not going to deep on all these games. KC had a very young D and they played them game 2 and midseason. Dallas they scored 17 points. Steelers were not in the playoffs so I would not be touting them and part of why they had that pass ranking is because teams were running for about 150 yards/game against them.

Correct did not have two WR's for SF but he did for Baltimore. Tougher when you don't have pieces right?

How many WR's have shuffled through in Jones time and this year?

Little defensive for saying a little over rated huh?

And come up with excuses for the good numbers?

The Steelers team that Herbert faced did make the playoffs. Google is free.

Jones is overrated because his best games were against the Vikings and the Colts and his worst games were against a top tier defense in the Eagles.

some of you are still trying to argue that Jones is as good as Herbert. You want to say Herbert wasn't elite this year? Fine, but he most definitely was last year. In just his second year he had over 5k yards passing and 38 TD passes. Plus 300 and 3 TDs on the ground. That is certainly much closer to Mahomes, Burrow and Allen than Jones.

The greatest QB in the history of our franchise was never able to accomplish the numbers that Herbert put up in his second year. Producer is right, any objective football fan knows that Herbert is a lot better than Jones.

I guarantee you that if Jones were on the Falcons everyone on this board would acknowledge that Herbert is far better.

In comment 16021461 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

Jones is overrated because his best games were against the Vikings and the Colts and his worst games were against a top tier defense in the Eagles.

I didn't make a comparison. I talked about Jones and what I saw. I just said I think he is a little over rated. I never have called Jones a elite QB or even a franchise one. I also said if Young dropped in the draft I would want JS to go and get him.

You posted QBR's. That's not my style. The point I made is some teams in the AFC build to be a passing team and often the tough D's cause these teams problems. This is not just a Herbert issue.

In you list you provided two of those games they scored 17 points (Buffalo another) and one twenty. I provided two teams who had good D's to make the broader point about style of football. So while he got his yards in some it did not result in points. WFT is another game same deal.

You did catch that part I said about the NFC and NFCE I am sure and the relevance to Jones.

One game against Baltimore and San Francisco makes Herbert overrated?

Herbert averages 67%, 290.7 yards, 2.5 TDS, .7 INT. He’s 2-4 against the Chiefs with every loss coming by 1 score.

Spare me your NFC East ground and pound fan porn. A QB that can go toe to toe with the best in the league isn’t overrated. His first two years were historic in terms of first two years in the league.

Mahommes, burrow, Allen right now you are absolute over rating him.

Can you imagine any of them blowing the jags game? It just wouldn’t happen. Those guys start the season as division champs. Anything less is disappointing.

He has elite tools and certainly can get into that class but to say he is there now cheapens the term.

I’m not sure why ppl are so invested in this. Go to a chargers board if you need a rub and tug

In comment 16021352 Sean said:

Quote:

That’s where I struggle. I don’t like Jones enough to give him a blank check, so I’m saying right there he’s limited. You can’t overpay QB’s like Mahomes, they talent is overwhelming. But, Jones is good enough to get in the playoffs and has won a road playoff game. Would I rather that than the Jets, Falcons or Saints? I’d rather have Jones than have no one. It’s hard to find that guy. So hopefully the contract is reasonable and then Schoen can pounce when the time is right to upgrade.

This is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen that keeps coming up...

DJ has 60 passing TDs in 4 years...Herbert has 94 in THREE.

In Herbert's worst year he threw for 25 TDs...in 2019, DJs best year, he threw for 24.

I Herbert's best year, he threw for 38 TDs...DJ has 37 passing TDs in the last THREE YEARS COMBINED.

Herbert had torn cartilage in his ribs this year, DJ was healthy. Herbert still threw for 10 more TDs.

Those saying they wouldn't trade for Herbert are morons. You know who would trade for Herbert...Schoen...and he'd do it in a second. Stop the stupidity! Get back to comparing DJ to Tanbehill...even though Tannehill has better career numbers.

Why are you responding to me? When have I been critical of Herbert?

In comment 16021513 GMen72 said:

Quote:

In comment 16021352 Sean said: Quote: That’s where I struggle. I don’t like Jones enough to give him a blank check, so I’m saying right there he’s limited. You can’t overpay QB’s like Mahomes, they talent is overwhelming. But, Jones is good enough to get in the playoffs and has won a road playoff game. Would I rather that than the Jets, Falcons or Saints? I’d rather have Jones than have no one. It’s hard to find that guy. So hopefully the contract is reasonable and then Schoen can pounce when the time is right to upgrade. This is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen that keeps coming up... DJ has 60 passing TDs in 4 years...Herbert has 94 in THREE. In Herbert's worst year he threw for 25 TDs...in 2019, DJs best year, he threw for 24. I Herbert's best year, he threw for 38 TDs...DJ has 37 passing TDs in the last THREE YEARS COMBINED. Herbert had torn cartilage in his ribs this year, DJ was healthy. Herbert still threw for 10 more TDs. Those saying they wouldn't trade for Herbert are morons. You know who would trade for Herbert...Schoen...and he'd do it in a second. Stop the stupidity! Get back to comparing DJ to Tanbehill...even though Tannehill has better career numbers.

What part of different offenses do you not understand? How hard is it to comprehend that one team is designed to throw the football all game and the other is designed to control the game through running the ball? What part of throwing the ball 1.5 times as many times per game produces 50% more yards through the air?

With all those yards that Herbert has, how many playoff wins do they have in those three years?

You are probably right that Schoen swaps Herbert for Jones because even marginal improvement is a step in the right direction. We even know that DG would have taken Herbert had he come out in 2019. Herbert has great numbers, how has that done for the Chargers?

He would still only have 66 touchdowns. Herbert has only thrown 200 more career passes. Even if we only take Jones’ best touchdown percentage years, if he threw the same amount of passes as Herbert he’s still only at 75 touchdowns. It’s not about Herbert throwing the ball more.

It’s more than a marginal improvement.

And if he threw 1966 passes total he’s still only at 82 touchdowns.

In comment 16021535 ajr2456 said:

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And if he threw 1966 passes total he’s still only at 82 touchdowns.

What part of different offenses do you not get? The Chargers run a high powered pass oriented offense. The Giants virtually never have. They don't have the WRs to do that and have not since 2012 and even then were a ground game first team. Even with Nicks, VC and Manningham they ran Bradshaw and Jacobs as their primary offensive weapons.

In comment 16021536 section125 said:

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In comment 16021535 ajr2456 said: Quote: And if he threw 1966 passes total he’s still only at 82 touchdowns. What part of different offenses do you not get? The Chargers run a high powered pass oriented offense. The Giants virtually never have. They don't have the WRs to do that and have not since 2012 and even then were a ground game first team. Even with Nicks, VC and Manningham they ran Bradshaw and Jacobs as their primary offensive weapons.

Lol.. the Chargers have a dysfunctional offense with no offensive brain (until K Moore). Herbert's "great weapons" were MIA most of the year. Keenan Allen is no longer a top 12 guy, he's a shadow of the player he was. Yet Herbert had a fine year.

Daniel Jones has an alleged offensive guru and QB whisperer who decided, based on Jones' skills, he would play like the '78 Bills.

If Herbert was with the Giants I assure you Daboll would do a lot more passing.

In comment 16021330 Sean said:

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NFC East: PHI: Hurts - yes DAL: Dak - no (not a big enough upgrade) WSH: no NFC North: GB: Rodgers - no (age) MIN: Cousins - no CHI: Fields - no (need to see more) DET: Goff - yes NFC South: ATL: no NO: no CAR: no TB: Brady - no (age) NFC West: SF: no ARI: Murray - no (he’s talented, but don’t trust him) SEA: no LAR: Stafford - yes (health a concern though) AFC East: BUF: Allen - yes MIA: Tua - no (injuries and not enough of an upgrade) NE: no NYJ: no AFC North: PIT: Pickett - no (still an unknown, high floor guy though it seems) BAL: Jackson - yes CLE: Watson - no (too much baggage) CIN: Burrow - yes AFC South: JAX: Lawrence: yes TEN: no IND: no HOU: no AFC West: KC: Mahomes - yes LAC: Herbert - yes LAV: no DEN: Wilson - no Derek Carr & Jimmy Garoppolo are not a big enough upgrade for me to move off Jones. Greg Cosell made a good point to Cowherd last month. It is a lot to bring in a new QB and teach him a system, that doesn’t happen overnight. So, Jones is going to get the nod imo unless the upgrade is significant. So, I would trade Jones straight up for 9 QB’s. Some are debatable. You could counter Goff & Stafford. You could argue Dak & Carr. This exercise puts Jones in a conversation for top 12ish QB. With that said, I’m still wary of giving him $40M AAV.

Sean, I agree on most every point, although I wouldn't take Watson or Jackson, due to character and cost issues respectively. I would take Jackson if the contract were the same. I am fine with $40 AAV as long as it is a team favorable structure (i.e. 5 years and big non guaranteed salaries in year 4 & 5).

In comment 16021536 section125 said:

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In comment 16021535 ajr2456 said: Quote: And if he threw 1966 passes total he’s still only at 82 touchdowns. What part of different offenses do you not get? The Chargers run a high powered pass oriented offense. The Giants virtually never have. They don't have the WRs to do that and have not since 2012 and even then were a ground game first team. Even with Nicks, VC and Manningham they ran Bradshaw and Jacobs as their primary offensive weapons.

If Jones played in the Chargers offense is he throwing 94 touchdowns in 3 years?

In comment 16021544 ajr2456 said:

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If Jones played in the Chargers offense is he throwing 94 touchdowns in 3 years?

I don't know and neither do you. Nobody knows. Logic dictates that no, Jones does not have those numbers. He was incomplete when drafted. Of course the Chargers' OC and QB coach were likely much better than what Jones had his 1st three years. It is a different style of offense. But I just looked it up, for all the great stats Herbert has, the Chargers are 2 games over .500 since he was there.

I am really not here to talk up Jones. My only purpose was to refute Producer's asinine posts and then I got caught up in the silliness of idle speculation. It was worth the back and forth for a while, but I ended up losing sight of my purpose. In totality, Herbert has been the better QB, partly because of circumstance and partly because of talent. I just do not think there is a big difference in talent and what difference there is, is in mental acuity(?). Herbert reads and reacts faster than Jones, he also has the far superior WRs which do make it easier to read and react.

While Herbert maybe close to the 5th best QB in the NFL, I certainly do not believe that Jones is the 18th - 8-12 range is likely.

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Herbert reads and reacts faster than Jones, he also has the far superior WRs which do make it easier to read and react.

It’s more mutual than people want to believe. For the most part in the NFL WRs are open for a split second.

Jones doesn’t have throws like these in his arsenal

https://twitter.com/pfn365/status/1607558303042895879?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg

https://twitter.com/robschiff316/status/1602124366657069057?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg

https://twitter.com/justinbtw_/status/1604675379444256769?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg

In comment 16021593 ajr2456 said:

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Quote: Herbert reads and reacts faster than Jones, he also has the far superior WRs which do make it easier to read and react. It’s more mutual than people want to believe. For the most part in the NFL WRs are open for a split second.

Yes our WR is top notch.

Who had a worse WR core than us this year? Or I guess you’re saying that doesn’t matter? Eye roll (and I love reading most of your posts, btw; you are super knowledgeable)

Just about the idea that WRs make it easier to read and react better. QBs that read and react quicker also help wide receivers make open catches more often. Sometimes a guy being wide open is because of the QB.

In comment 16021602 IchabodGiant said:

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In comment 16021593 ajr2456 said: Quote: Quote: Herbert reads and reacts faster than Jones, he also has the far superior WRs which do make it easier to read and react. It’s more mutual than people want to believe. For the most part in the NFL WRs are open for a split second. Yes our WR is top notch. Who had a worse WR core than us this year? Or I guess you’re saying that doesn’t matter? Eye roll (and I love reading most of your posts, btw; you are super knowledgeable)

As bad as the Giants WRs were, Jones still completed 67% of his throws and the WRs actually caught most things they got their hands on - yes Slayton was not as good as Hodgins and James. So he pretty much got the ball into tight windows.

In comment 16021606 ajr2456 said:

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Just about the idea that WRs make it easier to read and react better. QBs that read and react quicker also help wide receivers make open catches more often. Sometimes a guy being wide open is because of the QB.

More likely the scheme causing coverage failures. You can only throw a guy open if there is a hole in the coverage that the WR can run into. Yes the ball has to be properly lead. If you have a Tyrek Hill, he just runs past people. If you have a Victor Cruz, he just spins then around.

In comment 16021599 ajr2456 said:

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Jones doesn’t have throws like these in his arsenal https://twitter.com/pfn365/status/1607558303042895879?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg https://twitter.com/robschiff316/status/1602124366657069057?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg https://twitter.com/justinbtw_/status/1604675379444256769?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg

I’m sure he’ll do well in the skills competition.

In comment 16021633 giantBCP said:

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In comment 16021599 ajr2456 said: Quote: Jones doesn’t have throws like these in his arsenal https://twitter.com/pfn365/status/1607558303042895879?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg https://twitter.com/robschiff316/status/1602124366657069057?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg https://twitter.com/justinbtw_/status/1604675379444256769?s=46&t=hf6alpV7mFSYWy3m0dfNfg I’m sure he’ll do well in the skills competition.

94 touchdowns in 3 years on the field with a down year.