Better Player - Tiki or Saquon?

I think that pretty much sums it up.

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Tiki was an overall great player. There really wasn't a weakness to his game. Barkley is more talented but he leaves a lot to be desired. I'm sure some will disagree with me and try to criticize my take but it is what it is. Barkley shows spurts but he goes down way too easily. I think ine if his best runs was the TD again Minnesota. It isn't common to see Barkley run like that. I wish we saw that more.

That it's Tiki by a landslide. I see SB's game deteriorating in the coming years. His burst will diminish. In fact, it already has. I love him in terms of what he brings to the giants lockerroom and his rookie season was electric, but it was a waste of a pick at no. 2 overall.

but man would it be cool to see Saquon in an offense with a solid o-line and some good passing threats to take the focus off him

His last five season were great. And he was more durable. I actually think, too, he was a better receiver.

If you want to add the figure skating element and bring in style points, SB certainly grades higher.

A direct comparison is a bit tough since Barkley has been injured a bunch and had some weak OLs to run behind, but Tiki was very productive even behind the lousy 2003 OL. Tiki was the better receiver and much better picking up the blitz despite Barkley being much bigger.

Tiki was the better running back.

Now Tiki had a much better OL and skill talent around him, but he was also a better receiver and a much better pass protector.

but he ran behind competent and good olines. Barkley ran behind Solder and Hernandez getting hit behind the los 75% of the time for most of his career.

Barkley hasn't experienced those years yet (anticipating defenders via experience). Remember Tiki's amazing game against the Chiefs?
It's a fun question, but I think it's still too early.
Tiki's 6th year (2002 I think) he really started to be break out in production.
Let's get Barkley his 6th year, hopefully with some coaching stability.

Tiki seemed to have "figured out" how to play RB to a degree that most never achieve (i.e. vision, avoiding hits, etc). It was really fun to watch. I don't know that Saquon is there quite yet.

but really was a truly complete back. Better receiver, better pass blocker, more durable, and IIRC, more reliable short yardage guy (Saquon got a lot better this year to my eyes). He came in as an undersized receiver and returner and became the complete package.

The one major difference is that Tiki did almost all his best work AFTER 25. That's how old Saquon is now. It will be really interesting to see how Saquon is in this next phase of his career.

Tiki turned himself into a better player overall. It took him time though, and his ego when he played brought him down a bit.

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Saquon would be a bigger Tiki, but he hasn't yet. One thing Tiki did was reinvent himself with learning to hold on the ball as well as how to absorb collisions.

He was a pretty smart RB with blitz pickups etc as well. I still feel like DJ keeps telling Saquon what he has to do at times in the game after they set a play.

way, running, receiving and blocking. Once he resolved the fumble issue he was incredible. Just a great player. It's not too late for SB to surpass him because ad Greg said he is a physically more gifted athlete but he needs some monster years for that to happen.

He is the best RB I have ever seen wear a Giants uniform.

Tiki was a much much better player. Tiki was a few more quality seasons away from the hall of fame.

our Super Bowl era OL taking shape. From 2005-2008 our OL was as good as there was in the league, and two of Barber's finest seasons came behind that unit, which was on the rise.

Barkley played behind one of the objectively worst units in football for his entire career, on a poor team for 4 of his 5 seasons in which he clearly felt like he needed to hit home runs with every touch. He never really developed the patience and vision of a veteran RB until this year, after injuries clearly took a toll on his burst.

Tough call here. But I think Tiki was a better receiver than Barkley is, and managed to stay healthier into his prime. Tiki was also a very good pass protector, which Barkley really only picked up this season.

Barkley obviously had a better start to his career than Tiki did, but the result of that was much greater wear-and-tear, along with some serious injuries and a reconstructive knee surgery. Tiki avoided that, and by the time he was ready to break out, he was already a vet with 5-6 years under his belt. Career trajectories like Barber's were rare at the time, and virtually unheard of now. If Barkley followed the same path as Barber, next year (year 6) would truly be his breakout season.

Tiki was a serial fumbler and he mentioned that he didn't like TC's army/military style until TC gave him a lot of crap bout the drops, fumbles and poke outs. Similar to Jones, the rate of fumbles had dropped.
Tiki also late in his career, started a hill repeat regime that made him a lot stronger in the dirty yards. That's sort of where Saquon should be excelling but Saquon started dancing in the backfield for big losses until this year.
I remember this article(attached link) and it was pretty cool. Tiki became a good distance runner as well, running the NYC Marathon. He suckered Sehorn into it too.
I think if Saquon stays true to running behind his blocks and running through the seams he can be really good over and over. He tends to want the long break out runs but that's far and few and in between.



How Tiki got good.NYTIMES - ( New Window )

Barkley had potential to be the greatest. Awful o-lines and injuries screwed him.

TIKI benefitted from a few years of platooning, wasn't overused, was very explosive when he hit his prime.

Look at his game splits. He had a ridiculous number of 150+ and 200+ yard efforts.

Best Giant back ever, hands-down.

In comment 16020657 Spiciest Memelord said:

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but he ran behind competent and good olines.

Not every year, he didn't. The 2003 line stunk. Jeff Hatch started four games. Wayne Lucier and Ian Allen started 11. Tiki still ran for 1200 yards at 4.4 YPC.

Tiki. Not even close.

I think one could make a HOF argument for Barber too, seeing that Jerome Fucking Bettis is in Canton.

In comment 16020664 Johnny5 said:

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his ego when he played brought him down a bit.

Absolute nonsense. Whatever else anyone thinks about Tiki because of his postcareer comments, he was a consummate pro on the field who worked out like a madman in the offseason.

With that said and like others have said - all of Tiki's damage came after 25 years old and I've pointed at him when everyones been saying running backs turn into corpses after that age. He also ran on way way way more stacked teams. One thing that Saquon is not, is a fumbler. In fact I think people dismiss that in their desire to jettison Saquon. He has like 2 fumbles in 4 or 5 seasons.

Saquons ceiling is higher and I would love to see him run behind a top 10 line in this league cause he's a 2k rusher just waiting for his opportunity.

Also I would not be so quick to say Barkley is a more "talented" football player.

Maybe his Combine numbers are better. But Tiki had better balance, hands, vision, quicker processing. I think all those traits fall under "talent" and Tiki was better at them.

Barkley is the Most Talented Offensive Player Ive ever seen, including his physical and Football skill sets. I'd like to see him as a more finished down field receiver, including playing "WR positions".

In comment 16020680 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Tiki. Not even close. I think one could make a HOF argument for Barber too, seeing that Jerome Fucking Bettis is in Canton.

Terrell Davis is in because of four seasons. Four fantastic seasons, no doubt, but an injury-shortened career kept Mark Bavaro out even though he was unquestionably the best TE in football before he injured his knee.

In comment 16020683 OBJ_AllDay said:

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With that said and like others have said - all of Tiki's damage came after 25 years old and I've pointed at him when everyones been saying running backs turn into corpses after that age. He also ran on way way way more stacked teams.

Again: he put up great numbers in 2003-04 in offenses that weren't stacked at all.

He didn't carry the ball all that much until 2000, which helped him play well after age 25. He also was really, really good at avoiding big hits. He had a knack for turning slightly just before impact to minimize the force he received.

In comment 16020680 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Tiki. Not even close. I think one could make a HOF argument for Barber too, seeing that Jerome Fucking Bettis is in Canton.

Had TIki not Coughlined out, and he played two more seasons, he is definitely HoF and likely has at least one ring.

Tiki is the best RB in Giants history.

In comment 16020680 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Tiki. Not even close. I think one could make a HOF argument for Barber too, seeing that Jerome Fucking Bettis is in Canton.

X infinity.

Bettis had a funny nickname, and he was a funny fat guy. But he played behind some quality OLs and never led the league in anything. Definitely a very good player, but he shouldn't be in the HoF over Barber.

Look at Floyd Little's stats, too.

In comment 16020664 Johnny5 said:

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Tiki turned himself into a better player overall. It took him time though, and his ego when he played brought him down a bit.

You think his ego effected his ability to play football?

Unlike Barkley, he wasn't hurt much, and once Coughlin taught him not to fumble, he was pretty much great from then to when he retired.

Saquon could surpass him over time, but it doesn't feel likely.

running the ball. Different kind of back, Saquon had home run speed, Tiki didn’t but knew how to use his blocks and find creases much better. Tiki was much better at blitz pickup and receiver too, as others have said

To Saquon’s credit, he improved in those areas too this year. But he still hasn’t equaled Tikis performance and consistency in his prime

In comment 16020682 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 16020664 Johnny5 said: Quote: his ego when he played brought him down a bit. Absolute nonsense. Whatever else anyone thinks about Tiki because of his postcareer comments, he was a consummate pro on the field who worked out like a madman in the offseason.

and he played hurt quite frequently. And he didn't complain about playing under what became a below market contract late in this career.

Different league, different line. Current style league: is Zeke better than Barkley? No, he just plays on a better team(OL+).

Tiki was also not being singled out by any defense like Saquon which makes a big difference. Saquon has arguably the most talent I have seen as a RB and I remember Jimmy Brown playing.

Look at our passing plays Saquon runs right The lbs and safety follow and Jones throws left. It worked all season and was effective all season. No Saquon that play disappears.

Which I’m not sure why you would do anything other than that..it’s Saquon…which is saying something because Barkley had the all time rookie year and a very good year this season..but the other years he was beat up or completely injured and playing behind some of the worst offensive lines the NFL has ever seen..even his rookie year the line was atrocious. The fact that he went through all that and still outplayed Tiki is saying something(in saying outplayed rather than outproduced because even though he did outrooduce Tiki through their first 5 years despite playing in 14 less games..it’s the ridiculous plays he made as a rookie and even this year…Barber was no where near that level his first 5 years…not even close).


This is a better comparison to make when Barkley’s career is finished though, because what Tiki became and did towards the end of his career was remarkable and extraordinarily rare…you don’t see RBs ascend as they approach their 30s..it just doesn’t happen.

1st 5 years of his career, Barber averaged 600 yards/yr rushing. For much of that time he was a part-time player.

Barkley entered the league younger than Barber and has averaged a lot more than that, even taking into account his two game season.

Barber had an excellent second half to his career, which is unlikely to be matched by Barkley, so ultimately Barber may have the better career when all is said and done.

That said, very difficult to compare. Barber's best season, he had Plaxico, Toomer, and Shockey on the team. OL of Petitgout, Diehl, OHara, Snee, McKenzie.

Barkley has never had weapons close to that to take the pressure off him. Jones' running is the only other offensive weapon, really. Barkley IMO would have put up better numbers than Barber in the same situation. You can't stack the box with Plaxico, Toomer, and Shockey. Barkley would have ripped off a lot more long runs.

But it’s hard to compare due to the aforementioned difference in team make-up. Tiki had an above average to great offensive line. He had Toomer, Shockey, Hilliard to take some of the focus off of him. That said, Tiki was always available to play, was a phenomenal receiver out of the backfield, was excellent in blitz pickup, could get the tough yards, etc. He was a great all around back, and the fact that he’s not in the Hall of Fame and Edgerrin James is, to me, is a joke. No disrespect to Edge, he was great too, but actually look at their numbers side by side. Tiki was better.

Is understated is how he could work the left side of the field, both running and passing. He made a lot of big plays on the left side. Think about Tiki highlights.

One thing I would say about Barkley is that if he was being used in the passing game today more like he was in his first season under Shurmur/Shula, he would have a lot more big pass plays and a lot more receiving TDs. His total yardage would be closer to Tiki.

In comment 16020692 Greg from LI said:

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He also was really, really good at avoiding big hits. He had a knack for turning slightly just before impact to minimize the force he received.

This is a great observation, and funny that you say this today. Last night I was talking to a friend about WR height and weight, and how we felt the end of Wan'Dale's plays look like a test dummy during a NHTSA rollover test...the tests with no seat belts.

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I think this is really a matter of comparing a HOF caliber player who ended at the top of his game...to a player who just went through one of the worst 5 year stretches in the history of Giants football(4 year stretch technically).

Saying Barber played on bad teams is fine, he didn't do it in his first 5 seasons..the worst teams he played on his first 5 years were a pair of 7-9 teams. The Giants won 44 games during Barbers first 5 seasons, with only 35 losses(including an 12-4 team that took a trip to the superbowl).

Comparatively, the Giants lost an astounding 55 games during Barkely's first 5 seasons and each year the Giants offensive line could stake a claim among the NFLs worst units(not even mentioning the surrounding skill group, which truly was no better off). Of course the player associated with some of the worst years of Giants football is going to be passed over by a guy who on merit deserves HOF consideration...this is not a fair comparison...at all.

Let Barkley finish his career then make those comparisons, you are comparing apples to oranges at this point..it's a futile exercise.

was amazing. He definitely had much better OLines than Barkley, but I don't think OL quality would suddenly make Barkley as patient and smart of a runner as Tiki was.

During his prime, I'd say Tomlinson was the only better RB in football. Alexander was running behind an all-time great OL, I literally can't think of a better leftside of an OL than Jones/Hutchinson. I never thought Alexander was better than Tiki.

Barkley has had 2 seasons where he's in the Top 5 RB mix, but even then I wouldn't put it on the same caliber as Tiki's prime years. Barkley is very talented and his big-play explosiveness is a clear edge for him, but it doesn't happen enough to make up for Tiki's consistency.

One great memory I have is being very sick on New Year's Eve 2006. I couldn't go out to any NYE party or do anything, I was just stuck at home watching the Saturday Night game between the Giants and the Raiders.

Tiki put on an absolute clinic that night.

28 attempts for 203 yards (95yd TD run)
6 receptions for 60 yards

One of the finest performances a Giants skill player has ever played. I still felt lame for being stuck inside for NYE, but atleast I got to witness a memorable Giants performance (Plax also went for 128 and a TD in this one).

Crazy thing is that this Raiders game was arguably Tiki's 3rd best game of that season.

2005 Week 08: 24 carries/206 yards, 5 rec yds, 1 TD (vs. WAS)
2005 Week 15: 29 carres/220 yards, 29 rec yds, 2 TD
2005 Week 17: 28 carries/203 yards, 60 rec yds, 1 TD

Yea... Barkley's not on that level and likely never will be.

run/catch/block... by the end he could do it all. Barkley better right from the get-go though. Tiki needed almost 3 years to get to a pro bowl level, but his last 3 seasons were hall-of-fame caliber.

And honestly I don’t even think it’s close

He absolutely did not play his entire career behind the Diehl-Seubert-O'Hara-Snee-McKenzie line. There was more than a little of Ian Allen, Wayne Lucier, Jason Whittle, Chris Bober, Bob Whitfield, Mike Rosenthal et al mixed in there too.

As bad as the 2018-2021 lines? No, but hardly the '90s Cowboys either.

ego and clashing with Coughlin. He evolved into a terrific tailback, HoF worthy over his final few seasons. Ironically, his clashes with TC and then retiring played a role in TC forming the players' committee, etc, and BOOM, they win the SB.

Saquon has (or perhaps had) superior physical gifts, and a better, more team-oriented attitude. But, too often he doesn't display the instincts or feel for the game Tiki had in spades. Here's hoping the SB of the first nine games of 2022 appears more than the version that finished the season.

In comment 16020649 BigBlue7 said:

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but man would it be cool to see Saquon in an offense with a solid o-line and some good passing threats to take the focus off him

Exactly. This is why comparisons are always apples to oranges. Barber, as a starter, always had a solid line in front of him (and good blocking TEs). And defenses couldn't stack the box against Barber because of guys like Toomer, Hilliard, Burress, Shockey, Cross, Campbell, Jurevicius and, heck, even throw in Ron Dixon, who would have started on this Giants team. He also had Brown, Ward and Jacobs to spell him (and Dayne).

And don't forget Barber wasn't a starter until his fourth year. He didn't hit 1,000 yards until that fourth year (and barely made it then in 16 games at 1,006), with an average of 4.7 per, and had just over 719 receiving yards. Barkley started from day 1 behind a below average line with no real passing threat and totaled 1,300 yards (5 yards per) and 721 receiving yards as the only weapon on offense. Beckham played in just 4 games that year.

Behind Beckham on the depth chart were Shepard, Clay, Coleman, Coley, Davis, Fowler, Henderson, Lippitt, Russell, Shepard (yep, a second one). Can anyone list three first names in that group besides Sterling? (and that's giving you an easy one with Coleman). And for those who can't remember, this was his offensive line: Solder, Hernandez, Pulley, Brown, and the unforgettable Chad Wheeler. Getting 1,300 behind that group was miraculous. And his only backup at RB was rookie Wayne Gallman.

Put Barkley behind Barber's offensive lines, with those receivers, and lets see how they compare.