positions on SB and DJ.
I know this is behind a paywall but a good article. FYI I never thought I would pay for an Athletic subscription (I am cheap and not a huge sports fan outside of the Giants) but I did and it is consistently worth it.
Anyway article makes the point that JS's public comments on SB and DJ pretty much reversed since the bye. At the bye it was we want SB back and we are evaluating DJ. At season close it was positional value and this is a business with SB and we are happy he is our QB with DJ. If you take these at face value, then JS's plan on the two flipped since the bye. Why?
On DJ, they just started to rely more on his arm and legs and he held up. It seems like they put more and more on him, and he responded, at least until the Eagles game.
With SB it was the opposite. For the first 10 weeks of the season he was near the top of the league in RB measures. For the last 7 weeks he was 28th in the league in yards rushing, and probably worse in yards per carry.
At the bye, we supposedly negotiated with SB offering $12MM per, which he turned down. Did not even negotiate with DJ.
Now, I can't imagine them offering SB $12MM again - his late season performance does not merit it. On the other hand, it appears they will give DJ at least the tag.
Sorry for the long post, but felt the summary was worth it for those who don't have the subscription.
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12, maybe, because the cap is going up.
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Great analysis, but I think what it shows is that the problem was more with the defense than the offense. Teams were also keying on Barkley because our WRs as a group were subpar, although they definitely improved when Hodgins arrived.
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
I like how you referenced team wins there but seem to imply all other faults of the team and roster helping to provide the losses in that stretch are solely on Jones. He should be able to throw the ball, then quickly run downfield to catch it himself and take it into the endzone. The bum...
I'd sign Jones and transition tag Barkley
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Quote:
Not including the wk 18 game
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Do you have a plan if Jones walks? Would you be happy with Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan, or Russell Wilson?
I don’t have a plan and you don’t have a plan but I’m guessing that Schoen would have a plan and that it doesn’t include Joe Flacco. Just because you can’t think of something (or I) doesn’t mean that a bright young professional GM can’t either.
12, maybe, because the cap is going up.
I think the main reason for any shift is they got a feel in talking to the agents what each wanted in a contract.
He may even make history on the business side.
I think they Giants need to keep both. Need.
I don't disagree with all of the philosophies about running backs. I see other teams successfully shuffle through running backs, year to year, game to game, series to series. But I'm talking specifically about the pairing of 26 & 8. They are the heart of the offense and critical to the "team". In my opinion.
PB&J basically.
The giants offense was laughable on paper other than the big 3. The talent will be upgraded even just by accident or osmosis. The players are THAT upgradeable.
Things could be a lot better if the giants worry about the other 5-6-7 players on offense and let compliment the big three. Those guys did what talented players should do, they carried a bunch of jags to competitive levels.
But sure, let’s blame 2 of the 3 because they only went 3-4 during the gauntlet of games. Makes perfect sense. Shit let’s say bye bye to Barkley and spend that money on some magic FA player that doesn’t even exist.
Think it through.
Barkley carried the offense all year long. He put up stats that no other RB puts up on this 2022 team. He ran hard, he ran with anger and he finished runs while scoring some absolutely huge TDs (and 2 pt conf) when we needed them most.
Staggering to me, the guy flat out saved this season along with jones. I can rattle off probably 20 huge plays. 20!
He’s 26. Barely 1000 rushes. MVP talent.
Barkley carried the offense all year long. He put up stats that no other RB puts up on this 2022 team. He ran hard, he ran with anger and he finished runs while scoring some absolutely huge TDs (and 2 pt conf) when we needed them most.
Staggering to me, the guy flat out saved this season along with jones. I can rattle off probably 20 huge plays. 20!
He’s 26. Barely 1000 rushes. MVP talent.
So you are in the minority when it comes to Giant's fans on this site regarding your opinion of Barkley. At least just how high up on the pedestal you put him...
And, you have called those who do not share your opinion stupid.
Now, as you put it "the smarter outlets have gone full stupid on Barkley"
When you are calling out a bunch of people for being stupid, and you look around and you realize, that you are almost alone, and almost everybody else is on the other side of that stupidity, perhaps it is a good time to re-assess where the stupidity lays.
Now there have been occasions in history, where there was a lone voice that turned out to be correct. But that is rare. So, just perhaps...
Quote:
Not including the wk 18 game
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Do you have a plan if Jones walks? Would you be happy with Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan, or Russell Wilson?
Tank with Taylor, win 3 games, lock up the #1 pick, and draft the best QB available. Use the next 4-5 years to build around a stud on a rookie contract. One year of pain to become a possible SB contender. Makes a lot more sense than overpaying a QB that has the ceiling of Tannehill or Carr (and those are probably too high).
DJ needs to run 100 times per year to be a starting NFL QB...his best asset is his legs. You really think he stays healthy for 3-4 years, when he's been hurt 3 out of 4 to this point? Doubtful.
You can't eat hungry
You can't eat hungry
Yep but I think that applies to Jones as well. I’d be stunned if Schoen gives Jones anything more than the non exclusive franchise tag on a multi year AAV salary.
When he says “we want Jones back” it includes slapping the tag on him.
Quote:
Schoen has made it clear....they set walk away #s.
You can't eat hungry
Yep but I think that applies to Jones as well. I’d be stunned if Schoen gives Jones anything more than the non exclusive franchise tag on a multi year AAV salary.
When he says “we want Jones back” it includes slapping the tag on him.
Then you’d be wrong. “AAV” doesn’t mean a whole lot, and most of the players with these huge deals, aren’t really seeing that much fully guaranteed money that comes close to the AAV. $32.4m fully guaranteed for next season is a pretty huge number, and he’d be almost certain to get a deal long term deal that averaged $32m+ AAV if they were able to come to an agreement.
This. I think people need to watch some games back and focus on Barkley. He helped Jones by being the focal point of the offense. Defenses we trying to force Jones to beat them and Barkley still had 1800 yards from scrimmage.
26 should be back.
Quote:
In comment 16022232 HardTruth said:
Quote:
Not including the wk 18 game
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Do you have a plan if Jones walks? Would you be happy with Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan, or Russell Wilson?
I don’t have a plan and you don’t have a plan but I’m guessing that Schoen would have a plan and that it doesn’t include Joe Flacco. Just because you can’t think of something (or I) doesn’t mean that a bright young professional GM can’t either.
Looks like the bright, young professional GM is all in Jones. I don’t see any scenario where he isn’t back here. All signs point to it.
I’m not as positive on Barkley but I expect him to be back as well, somewhere between $12-14m.
Quote:
In comment 16022232 HardTruth said:
Quote:
Not including the wk 18 game
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
Do you have a plan if Jones walks? Would you be happy with Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan, or Russell Wilson?
Tank with Taylor, win 3 games, lock up the #1 pick, and draft the best QB available. Use the next 4-5 years to build around a stud on a rookie contract. One year of pain to become a possible SB contender. Makes a lot more sense than overpaying a QB that has the ceiling of Tannehill or Carr (and those are probably too high).
DJ needs to run 100 times per year to be a starting NFL QB...his best asset is his legs. You really think he stays healthy for 3-4 years, when he's been hurt 3 out of 4 to this point? Doubtful.
If only it was that easy, right?
For every Trevor Lawrence, there are more Justin Fields out there. You may get a Herbert, Burrow or Allen or it's more likely you end up with a Mayfield, Darnold, Haskins or Rosen. NFL teams get it wrong more often than not and there are many variables that come into play.
This board was screaming for some of the above guys who ended up being horrible. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Tank with Taylor, win 3 games, lock up the #1 pick, and draft the best QB available. Use the next 4-5 years to build around a stud on a rookie contract. One year of pain to become a possible SB contender. Makes a lot more sense than overpaying a QB that has the ceiling of Tannehill or Carr (and those are probably too high).
A REALLY REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA. I'm glad JS and Daboll don't think like you. I don't think they think Jones' ceiling is Tannehill or Carr and I'm sure they're aware of the really bad odds of drafting someone (even with the #1 overall pick) who is a more sure thing with a higher ceiling than Jones.
I'm also sure they're aware that NFL stands for Not For Long and tanking probably goes very much against their nature.
People like you probably wanted to let Simms go, so we could find the next Montana and let Eli go, so we could find the next Brady.
They're going to build the team around Jones whether you and the dwindling few like you, like it or not.
First you test the car for reliability and safety. Then you start tuning for speed....
Michael Vick (Jones haters might find things they liked about Vick, but did he have the intangibles to win a SB? Obviously not.)
David Carr
Carson Palmer
Alex Smith
JaMarcus Russell
Sam Bradford
Cam Newton (talented, but not the most accurate passer and made a business decision in the SB that Jones wouldn't even make in a reg season game)
Jameis Winston
Jared Goff
Baker Mayfield
Kyler Murray
These were all #1 overall picks and for the most part, no one questioned them at the time. I wouldn't take any of them over Jones. We still don't know how good Jones can be when he has better protection and something other than bottom tier WRs.
The above list is twice as long as the list of #1 overall picks that turned out good (Peyton, Eli, Stafford, Luck, Burrow, Lawrence).
Obviously, some years the #1 overall wasn't a QB and you had QB busts at the #2 overall or other high pick. Most experts loved Ryan Leaf who was #2 overall. How about Mariota (#2), Trubisky (#2), Wentz (#2), Zach Wilson (#2) and Blake Bortles (#3), Sam Darnold (#3), etc.
There have been multiple years just in the last 20, when it turned out there wasn't a SINGLE decent franchise QB in the ENTIRE draft. Plenty of QBs were drafted, even #1 overall (on avg. about 12 total per yr), just none turned out to be the guy.
I'm sure Schoen and Daboll know this. Tanking in '23 to roll the dice in '24 ain't happening.
12, maybe, because the cap is going up.
The cap is always going up (except for the one Covid reduction year), and is always expected to go up YOY. I doubt that would impact Schoen's valuation at all, because the cap landed around where it was expected to land.
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
And yet. Here we are with Daniel about to be offered 30+ million by the GM of that team. Hard to explain your logic here unless of course you feel you are more qualified than Mr. Schoen.
Quote:
Not including the wk 18 game
The team was down 24-6 at home vs Lions at end of 3Q
Down 28-13 at top of 4Q vs Dallas despite a + 2 turnover advantage
Down 21-0 early in 2Q and 27-7 late 3Q to Eagles
And obviously 28-0 to Philly in playoffs
The team wins include the Houston Texans and Indianapolis Colts, 2 of the 4 worst teams in NFL.
And a 1-0-1 record vs Washington that if we were honest was a complete an utter standstill over 9Q that was 40-32 combined over those quarters that included a defensive TD and a controversial ending.
Then there were the 2 Vikings games . This was obviously a great playoff win.
The Vikings have the 31st ranked pass defense in NFL. They had gotten down 33-0 to Colts before a miraculous comeback and blownout 42-17 vs Pack before a win vs the worst team in NFL. These were the games surrounding ours vs Vikes.
Yes the Giants could have won first games vs Vikes but they also coukd have lost both games to Washington
They were destroyed vs Eagles both times and were not close to beating Lions or Dallas.
Is this really the stretch we want to bank on?
And yet. Here we are with Daniel about to be offered 30+ million by the GM of that team. Hard to explain your logic here unless of course you feel you are more qualified than Mr. Schoen.
These people (trying to be nice) never mention that during this stretch we were missing our 2 best DBs (by far), our 2nd best DL (for some of the games), our best TE and our OL was banged up (and not great before the injuries). And of course our WRs were near bottom of the league. But it's all DJ's fault we went 3-4-1 after the bye!
You can't eat hungry
You almost always eat hungry.
You can't shop hungry.
Quote:
Schoen has made it clear....they set walk away #s.
You can't eat hungry
You almost always eat hungry.
You can't shop hungry.
Love to eat hungry. It just feels....right.
Quote:
The guy scored 2 huge TDs in the minny playoff game but I’m supposed to believe he slowed down when it mattered most. Never mind daboll’s gameplan was smart enough to use bark as a decoy and lean on DJ.
Barkley carried the offense all year long. He put up stats that no other RB puts up on this 2022 team. He ran hard, he ran with anger and he finished runs while scoring some absolutely huge TDs (and 2 pt conf) when we needed them most.
Staggering to me, the guy flat out saved this season along with jones. I can rattle off probably 20 huge plays. 20!
He’s 26. Barely 1000 rushes. MVP talent.
So you are in the minority when it comes to Giant's fans on this site regarding your opinion of Barkley. At least just how high up on the pedestal you put him...
And, you have called those who do not share your opinion stupid.
Now, as you put it "the smarter outlets have gone full stupid on Barkley"
When you are calling out a bunch of people for being stupid, and you look around and you realize, that you are almost alone, and almost everybody else is on the other side of that stupidity, perhaps it is a good time to re-assess where the stupidity lays.
Now there have been occasions in history, where there was a lone voice that turned out to be correct. But that is rare. So, just perhaps...
No, I am in the minority of posters and even that is debatable. In the real world most fans I run into want to keep Barkley.
Stop me if that's enough.
I want an educated opinion with context and nuance, not a majority opinion. Most of the time, the majority of people take it up the keister without realizing they're being screwed, and then say, "thanks, may I have another."
The majority buy Chinese products at Walmart and drink shitty beer.
Screw what the majority thinks.
But what do teams like SF know. Even dallas.
I keep asking it, where the hell are we getting Bark's production even if it's from WR---who we paying his money too?> The FA WR crop is hot trash. So we're gonna do what?
Pay the guy. Bird in the hand.
It's not even close to that simple and even if it was, you're now trading a known leader and pillar of this team for the unknown, and like I said , what player? And when? This year?
You pay your own. Even thinking of letting this guy walk simply because you want to use that made up money elsewhere is highly flawed.
I keep asking, if there was no cap, are you keeping and paying Barkley? Of course you are. You aren't even thinking twice.
The Giants have tons of space! Use some on Barkley. You aren't letting him walk and using that loot on a 26 year old stud WR--and newsflash, that 26 year old WR is going to make 25 million, not 15.
It's nobody here's job to identify useful veteran nfl talent out there that can help this team. None of us know or can do what a pro personnel department can do. It's a blank shell of argument ammunition. It doesn't hold water.