But Rice is considered the better player for his longevity and consistency.
This. Clearly LT is the most dominant player in football, ever. But his bad habits cut short his career, where Rice's good habits made him the best at his position for an insane period of time. Jerry Rice is the greatest football player of all time. LT is the most dominant. And neither of them probably make the top 10 for most important, since the QB position dominates so much.
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
This. Clearly LT is the most dominant player in football, ever. But his bad habits cut short his career, where Rice's good habits made him the best at his position for an insane period of time. Jerry Rice is the greatest football player of all time. LT is the most dominant. And neither of them probably make the top 10 for most important, since the QB position dominates so much.
You have to delineate offense from defense. LT is the most dominant defensive player. Rice offense.
Rice scored over 200 TDs. Just think about that. He had a stretch of ten seasons where he averaged 14+ TDs per year. Can you possibly get more dominant than that? I don't think anyone is touching that number.
No offense to Jerry Rice...but he was part of a system
Is this some kind of joke? BTW - Jerry Rice allowed a scrubby Cowboys CB to get in his head before the NFC Championship Game. Tell me when LT ever let that happen. It was LT who got in other peoples' heads, not the other way around.
P.S. Jerry Rice was not the toughest player around either. Carl Banks himself mentioned that.
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
One thing I’ve noticed about a lot of naturally gifted athletes is that they kind of resent being labeled “naturally gifted”. They think it makes them look “lucky” or that their greatness was handed to them. They almost always mention “I work really really hard and spend a lot of time…” to emphasize how it took dedication and effort for them to get to this point.
LT wasn’t like that. He actually loved the fact that he was naturally gifted and would constantly remind people about it. He wouldn’t even lift weights regularly because he was content just naturally being strong. He actually took pleasure in seeing other people work their ass off 100% and still not get close to him when he was on 50% effort.
LT isn’t LT without that mentality. But it was different for sure and likely cost him atleast a couple years of impactful football.
First two "lists" I saw, I didn't pursue it further
It's not a ridiculous question and They were both great, but of course we are Giants centric and from a non giants centric perspective people may tend to feel it's RIce.
Rice as the GOAT is a joke. His selection is based on his longevity and the fact that he was very fortunate to be on teams with great player and coaching talent for a large portion of his career.
I never remember Rice being a “scary” player (Randy Moss was scary); he was a key, maybe at times the key weapon in a loaded arsenal.
His longevity and overall career records earn him clear HOF honors and recognition as the best WR career of all time, but that’s as far as I’ll go.
Ranking Rice above all QBs, Jim Brown and LT is a farce.
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
One thing I’ve noticed about a lot of naturally gifted athletes is that they kind of resent being labeled “naturally gifted”. They think it makes them look “lucky” or that their greatness was handed to them. They almost always mention “I work really really hard and spend a lot of time…” to emphasize how it took dedication and effort for them to get to this point.
LT wasn’t like that. He actually loved the fact that he was naturally gifted and would constantly remind people about it. He wouldn’t even lift weights regularly because he was content just naturally being strong. He actually took pleasure in seeing other people work their ass off 100% and still not get close to him when he was on 50% effort.
LT isn’t LT without that mentality. But it was different for sure and likely cost him atleast a couple years of impactful football.
LT also had an extremely high football IQ which he does not not enough credit for. Carl Banks will always say that LT was the smartest guy in room, knew where everyone was supposed to be on every play.
Anyone who watched them both play would surely say LT
It was the start of the "west coast" offense....with Joe Montana and Bill Walsh.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
This diminishes Rice’s greatness, as though he only succeeded due to a system. Rice was great with the Niners and even late in his career with the Raiders. He succeeded no matter who his Quarterback was. He was a consummate professional who took his training to different level.
It was the start of the "west coast" offense....with Joe Montana and Bill Walsh.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
This diminishes Rice’s greatness, as though he only succeeded due to a system. Rice was great with the Niners and even late in his career with the Raiders. He succeeded no matter who his Quarterback was. He was a consummate professional who took his training to different level.
Don't remember the exact timing but I think the Raiders were also WCO Gannon and Gruden?
Rice. I think what people are articulating is that I am not sure you game planned to an extreme degree around Rice. IMO (I was relatively young at the time) but there were offensive weapons who jumped out more than Rice over the year when you watched a game. Moss, TO and Irving come to mind on guys who may have been more “scary” in any given game, but obviously they do not come close to Rice’s stats. The closest comp to me would be Marvin Harrison, who was an excellent player but also had an incredibly talented QB playing in a system catered to his talents. But during his peak I think anyone would have taken TO or Moss over Harrison.
Rice. I think what people are articulating is that I am not sure you game planned to an extreme degree around Rice. IMO (I was relatively young at the time) but there were offensive weapons who jumped out more than Rice over the year when you watched a game. Moss, TO and Irving come to mind on guys who may have been more “scary” in any given game, but obviously they do not come close to Rice’s stats. The closest comp to me would be Marvin Harrison, who was an excellent player but also had an incredibly talented QB playing in a system catered to his talents. But during his peak I think anyone would have taken TO or Moss over Harrison.
Again this is diminishing Rice’s greatness. Prime Jerry Rice had no weakness in his game. He ran every route, could attack every level of the field, and could take a slant 80 yards to the house. He also wasn’t small at 6’2” and could out jump corners in the end zone. If you don’t think team’s didn’t game plan around him, then I’m not sure you really watched him play.
As we are talking the tier of absolute greatness. But curious if you would take Rice over Irving, Moss or TO at their peak? Like I said I was young for most of Rices career so most of my memories are 91 or later.
As we are talking the tier of absolute greatness. But curious if you would take Rice over Irving, Moss or TO at their peak? Like I said I was young for most of Rices career so most of my memories are 91 or later.
Without question I would take him over those 3 guys. Moss was a 3 route guy, who wouldn’t go over the middle. Prime Owens was comparable, but Rice had better hands and was faster. Rice was better than Irving by a mile.
It was the start of the "west coast" offense....with Joe Montana and Bill Walsh.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
You cannot diminish Rice because of system. He did it with Montana, yes. He also did it with Young and Rich Gannon, in an era where they didn't throw it like they do today. Joe Montana never threw for more than 4000 yards. Steve Young did it just twice, neither significantly more than 4000 yards.
In 1987, he scored 22 TDs on 65 catches. Imagine that. That's 2nd All-Time to Moss during the historic 2007 Patriots' season where they broke all the offensive scoring and passing records during their undefeated run.
I think the debate is pointless, IMO. One was a WR playing offense, the other was LT, they were both historically great, you really can't compare the two meaningfully.
not “dominate”. Sorry to be that guy. That one is a pet peeve of mine.
Approved.
In football discussions (especially regarding the draft), the misuse of "dominate" is up there with "they should have went with..." for grating on my mind's ear.
I suspect if the question were asked on a 49ers board, you'd see opposite answers.
I watched both guys their whole careers, and I suspect the answer is that it's probably closer than being suggested here.
Yes, LT changed the way the game had to be played. But Rice wrecked games and dominated in his own way too. As with LT, you might have the odd good game against him, but both were guys the opposing team had to try and scheme for.
Rice was his eras greatest (non kicker) scorer. He had 208 TDs in 303 games, and when he retired, he owned pretty much all the WR records.
When the NFL ranked their all time top players, they were 1. Jim Brown, 2. Rice, 3 Taylor.
I don't personally have any issue with rating LT "more dominant"(depending on your definition), but it's much closer than is being expressed here.
the best defenders of all time have had more impact on the game than the best offensive players (non QBs) of all time. There are players other than LT that were more dominant than Jerry Rice.
that Jerry Rice was the best WR ever. LT is the best LB ever.
One on offense and one on defense. Defense wins championships - so along those lines - I take LT. God he was amazing to watch. Wish Giants had a clone of him now.
"Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s, Taylor was a disruptive force at outside linebacker, and is credited with changing defensive game plans, defensive pass rushing schemes, offensive line blocking schemes, and offensive formations used in the NFL."
it's very close between them. LT gets a hometown bump from fans here but Jerry Rice was fucking incredible. Might be the greatest non-QB offensive player in history, just as LT might be the greatest defender in history.
the best defenders of all time have had more impact on the game than the best offensive players (non QBs) of all time. There are players other than LT that were more dominant than Jerry Rice.
This is gibberish. Why are defenders more impactful than the very best offensive players?
the product of Walsh' system (so was Montana for that matter).
LT "literally", changed how football is played.
NO comparison.
So was 40 year old Rice the product of Bill Callahan's WCO aided by a mid 30s Tim Brown? I just watched early 20s Brandon Aiyuk barely scrape his first 1000 yard season almost half Rice's age in Oakland. Clearly everyone can get 1000 yard seasons at WR, at any age.
I tend to think fans' have a bias towards how their particular team fared against that player. With respect to Rice, he never really tore up the Giants' defense like he did other defenses. Somehow that's a knock on him as opposed to just acknowledging how good the Giants' defense was.
Most of this board thinks the Montana to Rice combo that won the game in '88 could've been done by 3/4 of the QB/WR in the league at the time. Two of the greatest players in the history of the league just got really lucky you know, while Brady to Moss at the very end of SB42 possibly being able to catch a pass in double coverage has people biting their nails rewatching the highlights......
Eye test LT was great, but the stats kinda underwhelm for an undisputed GOAT level defensive player, you have to admit. I'd like a bit more dominance personally. #12 in tackles, #14 in sacks (since 1982).
Even Moss & TO have amazing #s, neck and neck for best ever if it wasn't for Rice.
LT > Rice is probably correct, but 30 other fanbases likely don't all see it that way, let alone the slam dunk, don't-insult-my-intelligence, that is being touted here.
the best defenders of all time have had more impact on the game than the best offensive players (non QBs) of all time. There are players other than LT that were more dominant than Jerry Rice.
Who? I seriously suggest you and others reevaluate his numbers. He was Babe Ruth of offense.
the best defenders of all time have had more impact on the game than the best offensive players (non QBs) of all time. There are players other than LT that were more dominant than Jerry Rice.
Who? I seriously suggest you and others reevaluate his numbers. He was Babe Ruth of offense.
Seriously, people should look back at Rice's numbers compared to others.
The NFL 100 put Rice second due mostly to longevity (LT 3rd). You can make a good, rational argument for both.
Seriously, people should look back at Rice's numbers compared to others.
The NFL 100 put Rice second due mostly to longevity (LT 3rd). You can make a good, rational argument for both.
Jerry Rice was NOT a dink and dunk/YAC receiver.
He was not. Plus, Rice played in an era where:
+ going over the middle was like going through Aleppo in Syria. Safeties and LBs were allowed to hit receivers with impunity. There was NO emphasis on leading with the helmet or targeting.
+ corners could be much more aggressive with WRs off the LOS.
and the geometry of the game. No other modern athlete in any major sport has even remotely done that. Get out of here with this Jerry Rice crap.
LT was my favorite player Rice deserves his place in this conversation because there are two different sides of the ball. And he was dominant everywhere - regular season and post season.
To not recognize that shows a clear bias.
Hell, a reasonable argument can be made that Reggie White was just as dominant as LT.
If the choice was, LT in his prime vs Rice in his prime, who would be the landslide choice everywhere but SF?
If the choice was, LT in his prime vs Rice in his prime, who would be the landslide choice everywhere but SF?
well put.
This. Clearly LT is the most dominant player in football, ever. But his bad habits cut short his career, where Rice's good habits made him the best at his position for an insane period of time. Jerry Rice is the greatest football player of all time. LT is the most dominant. And neither of them probably make the top 10 for most important, since the QB position dominates so much.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
This. Clearly LT is the most dominant player in football, ever. But his bad habits cut short his career, where Rice's good habits made him the best at his position for an insane period of time. Jerry Rice is the greatest football player of all time. LT is the most dominant. And neither of them probably make the top 10 for most important, since the QB position dominates so much.
You have to delineate offense from defense. LT is the most dominant defensive player. Rice offense.
Rice scored over 200 TDs. Just think about that. He had a stretch of ten seasons where he averaged 14+ TDs per year. Can you possibly get more dominant than that? I don't think anyone is touching that number.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
P.S. Jerry Rice was not the toughest player around either. Carl Banks himself mentioned that.
Quote:
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
One thing I’ve noticed about a lot of naturally gifted athletes is that they kind of resent being labeled “naturally gifted”. They think it makes them look “lucky” or that their greatness was handed to them. They almost always mention “I work really really hard and spend a lot of time…” to emphasize how it took dedication and effort for them to get to this point.
LT wasn’t like that. He actually loved the fact that he was naturally gifted and would constantly remind people about it. He wouldn’t even lift weights regularly because he was content just naturally being strong. He actually took pleasure in seeing other people work their ass off 100% and still not get close to him when he was on 50% effort.
LT isn’t LT without that mentality. But it was different for sure and likely cost him atleast a couple years of impactful football.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl-100/2019/10/01/nfl-100-best-players-all-time/3785514002/
USA today says Rice
National Football League's list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Top_100:_NFL%27s_Greatest_Players
says Rice
First two "lists" I saw, I didn't pursue it further
It's not a ridiculous question and They were both great, but of course we are Giants centric and from a non giants centric perspective people may tend to feel it's RIce.
I never remember Rice being a “scary” player (Randy Moss was scary); he was a key, maybe at times the key weapon in a loaded arsenal.
His longevity and overall career records earn him clear HOF honors and recognition as the best WR career of all time, but that’s as far as I’ll go.
Ranking Rice above all QBs, Jim Brown and LT is a farce.
Quote:
In comment 16022644 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
But he was a dirtbag who did not take care of his body. He was constantly banged up because of this.
Jerry Rice took care of his body like an absolute professional. And because of it, he impacted A LOT more games than LT did.
LT was better at his best but Rice was a beast at his best and has much better longevity. Close call. There’s a reason Rice/Brown/LT are the consensus top 3 non-QBs, all absolute monsters.
I was going to mention this as well. It was almost as if LT achieved greatness in spite of himself. Guys like Rice, Payton and Sanders were incredibly dedicated/uber competitive workers that made themselves better and better as they got older. LT seemed much more like a force of nature.
One thing I’ve noticed about a lot of naturally gifted athletes is that they kind of resent being labeled “naturally gifted”. They think it makes them look “lucky” or that their greatness was handed to them. They almost always mention “I work really really hard and spend a lot of time…” to emphasize how it took dedication and effort for them to get to this point.
LT wasn’t like that. He actually loved the fact that he was naturally gifted and would constantly remind people about it. He wouldn’t even lift weights regularly because he was content just naturally being strong. He actually took pleasure in seeing other people work their ass off 100% and still not get close to him when he was on 50% effort.
LT isn’t LT without that mentality. But it was different for sure and likely cost him atleast a couple years of impactful football.
LT also had an extremely high football IQ which he does not not enough credit for. Carl Banks will always say that LT was the smartest guy in room, knew where everyone was supposed to be on every play.
+ Infinity
LT "literally", changed how football is played.
NO comparison.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
This diminishes Rice’s greatness, as though he only succeeded due to a system. Rice was great with the Niners and even late in his career with the Raiders. He succeeded no matter who his Quarterback was. He was a consummate professional who took his training to different level.
Quote:
It was the start of the "west coast" offense....with Joe Montana and Bill Walsh.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
This diminishes Rice’s greatness, as though he only succeeded due to a system. Rice was great with the Niners and even late in his career with the Raiders. He succeeded no matter who his Quarterback was. He was a consummate professional who took his training to different level.
Don't remember the exact timing but I think the Raiders were also WCO Gannon and Gruden?
Again this is diminishing Rice’s greatness. Prime Jerry Rice had no weakness in his game. He ran every route, could attack every level of the field, and could take a slant 80 yards to the house. He also wasn’t small at 6’2” and could out jump corners in the end zone. If you don’t think team’s didn’t game plan around him, then I’m not sure you really watched him play.
Without question I would take him over those 3 guys. Moss was a 3 route guy, who wouldn’t go over the middle. Prime Owens was comparable, but Rice had better hands and was faster. Rice was better than Irving by a mile.
LT was a one man wreacking crew....nothing was ever like him.
You cannot diminish Rice because of system. He did it with Montana, yes. He also did it with Young and Rich Gannon, in an era where they didn't throw it like they do today. Joe Montana never threw for more than 4000 yards. Steve Young did it just twice, neither significantly more than 4000 yards.
In 1987, he scored 22 TDs on 65 catches. Imagine that. That's 2nd All-Time to Moss during the historic 2007 Patriots' season where they broke all the offensive scoring and passing records during their undefeated run.
I think the debate is pointless, IMO. One was a WR playing offense, the other was LT, they were both historically great, you really can't compare the two meaningfully.
Approved.
In football discussions (especially regarding the draft), the misuse of "dominate" is up there with "they should have went with..." for grating on my mind's ear.
I watched both guys their whole careers, and I suspect the answer is that it's probably closer than being suggested here.
Yes, LT changed the way the game had to be played. But Rice wrecked games and dominated in his own way too. As with LT, you might have the odd good game against him, but both were guys the opposing team had to try and scheme for.
Rice was his eras greatest (non kicker) scorer. He had 208 TDs in 303 games, and when he retired, he owned pretty much all the WR records.
When the NFL ranked their all time top players, they were 1. Jim Brown, 2. Rice, 3 Taylor.
I don't personally have any issue with rating LT "more dominant"(depending on your definition), but it's much closer than is being expressed here.
One on offense and one on defense. Defense wins championships - so along those lines - I take LT. God he was amazing to watch. Wish Giants had a clone of him now.
This is gibberish. Why are defenders more impactful than the very best offensive players?
LT "literally", changed how football is played.
NO comparison.
So was 40 year old Rice the product of Bill Callahan's WCO aided by a mid 30s Tim Brown? I just watched early 20s Brandon Aiyuk barely scrape his first 1000 yard season almost half Rice's age in Oakland. Clearly everyone can get 1000 yard seasons at WR, at any age.
I tend to think fans' have a bias towards how their particular team fared against that player. With respect to Rice, he never really tore up the Giants' defense like he did other defenses. Somehow that's a knock on him as opposed to just acknowledging how good the Giants' defense was.
Most of this board thinks the Montana to Rice combo that won the game in '88 could've been done by 3/4 of the QB/WR in the league at the time. Two of the greatest players in the history of the league just got really lucky you know, while Brady to Moss at the very end of SB42 possibly being able to catch a pass in double coverage has people biting their nails rewatching the highlights......
Eye test LT was great, but the stats kinda underwhelm for an undisputed GOAT level defensive player, you have to admit. I'd like a bit more dominance personally. #12 in tackles, #14 in sacks (since 1982).
Even Moss & TO have amazing #s, neck and neck for best ever if it wasn't for Rice.
LT > Rice is probably correct, but 30 other fanbases likely don't all see it that way, let alone the slam dunk, don't-insult-my-intelligence, that is being touted here.
For a good chunk of their careers they were the best players on the field every week, offense or defense.
Who? I seriously suggest you and others reevaluate his numbers. He was Babe Ruth of offense.
Rice is the greatest position perfectionist combined with athlete of all time.
I love them both.
Quote:
the best defenders of all time have had more impact on the game than the best offensive players (non QBs) of all time. There are players other than LT that were more dominant than Jerry Rice.
Who? I seriously suggest you and others reevaluate his numbers. He was Babe Ruth of offense.
Seriously, people should look back at Rice's numbers compared to others.
The NFL 100 put Rice second due mostly to longevity (LT 3rd). You can make a good, rational argument for both.
Jerry Rice was NOT a dink and dunk/YAC receiver.
Seriously, people should look back at Rice's numbers compared to others.
The NFL 100 put Rice second due mostly to longevity (LT 3rd). You can make a good, rational argument for both.
Jerry Rice was NOT a dink and dunk/YAC receiver.
He was not. Plus, Rice played in an era where:
+ going over the middle was like going through Aleppo in Syria. Safeties and LBs were allowed to hit receivers with impunity. There was NO emphasis on leading with the helmet or targeting.
+ corners could be much more aggressive with WRs off the LOS.
And Rice never flinched.
LT was my favorite player Rice deserves his place in this conversation because there are two different sides of the ball. And he was dominant everywhere - regular season and post season.
To not recognize that shows a clear bias.
Hell, a reasonable argument can be made that Reggie White was just as dominant as LT.