First, I'll admit that this thread is speculative. Since we don't have the details of what is happening behind closed doors, we are left with rumors circulated by media or other sources. Here's what's been said (correctly or incorrectly).
1. SB refused around a 12.5M AAV offer at the time of the bye.
2. Schoen's post-season comments have shown a bit of a cooling off on SB as opposed to the stronger language used during the season.
3. Negotiations right now are proceeding with SB only (not DJ), leading some to speculate that the Giants have a specific number in mind regarding SB, and that if they can't get at or below it, they'll walk away. In other words, they'll use the franchise tag as a negotiating tool for DJ only, not Barkley. This might even mean that they know that SB is unwilling to play under the tag. He told them that he would hold out rather than risk a big future payday by playing for only one season for $10M.
4. There is a general principle in the NFL that you don't pay big money to RBs on second contracts, as opposed to QBs. They simply aren't durable enough. This is especially true for SB.
5. The 14-16M spent on SB could be used to help other parts of the offense (OL or WR). Some believe that spending the money on these positions is more conducive to success rather than spending it on a RB. Basically, the theory is that any 4th round or later cheap RB can be successful behind a dominant offensive line.
6. There is a SIGNIFICANT element to SB that lies beyond his abilities as a RB. He is a captain and a leader on the team. Letting him walk will definitely have a big negative impact on the lockerroom and the team as a whole. The giants would be losing A LOT more than just a RB.
Given these speculative/factual points, what would you do if SB refuses anything below 14M? Point number 6 above is HUGELY important and cannot be minimized.
Do you sign SB for 14-16M or let him walk? It's quite possible that tagging is unlikely to be the path the Giants will employ with him. He doesn't want it and they need it for Jones.
What do you do if you're the GM?
The Giants are just coming out from a severe cap restriction, and I suspect that Schoen has a number in mind that he will not exceed as you said.
As much as I would like Saquon back, Schoen must hold to his number or under. They do not have to reach for the stars at this moment. There is too much to do elsewhere on the roster to pay huge $$ for a RB. But losing him leaves a huge hole in the offense that must be filled. Not sure what other FA RBs are out there at mid-level. If not FA, then they would need a day two RB.
Right?
Paying big money for both hurts building the roster in other spots and paying our LT and DT.
+1
This is a very good RB draft class.
This implies we'd actually be able to acquire three WR and TE good enough to have a playoff caliber offense in the next couple years.
I'm doubtful. I get the argument, but we aren't that close.
This second contract worries with Barkley aren't a thing for me as far as wear and tear, simply because his legs don't actually have the mileage on them.
The injury concern is real, though.
Agree . I don't see him getting any offers near that number with a flood of good RB's available .
Have a feeling Mara will dig in and overpay .
Saquon's cap hit this past year was $7.2 million. The running back unit and offense isn't better served by providing him more money in the future. The deep supply at the position, cheap fresh legs in each draft, and ability to utilize several backs over a full season all paint an easy picture of a more efficient use of resources.
Schoen most likely knows that so that makes this decision even more interesting if he decides otherwise.
Without looking, I'm guessing the number is 0 or close to it.
I feel the same way. I want him back, but at a reasonable price.
See if he changes his tune at some point and can get a deal done both sides can live with. If not, ride out the year and revisit next off season.
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But go through the last 10 Super Bowl winners and see how many had running backs on large contracts...
This implies we'd actually be able to acquire three WR and TE good enough to have a playoff caliber offense in the next couple years.
I'm doubtful. I get the argument, but we aren't that close.
It has nothing to do with being close or not, it has to do with the fact that the strategy should always be devised around putting together a roster worthy of winning the Super Bowl. We're talking about 12-15 mil a year for Barkley, that money can buy 2 starters at other positions that would impact the team as much, if not more. Productive backs can be found all over the draft and in late rounds.
Gettleman would have been casual and re-signed Barkley, no doubt overpaying him a la Gollday.
Schoen is going to look for value and, like you suggest, will have a dollar amount in his mind and won't go above that.
Chances are Barkley walks.
You have to save the tag for Jones, which if we need to use it on him, we'd have to reach a long-term deal with Barkley. That seems unlikely given that he apparently wants $14M-$16M. We can't tag Jones and pay that to Barkley. Doing so would eliminate most of our cap space and is a poor use of resources.
But even if the Giants reach a long-term deal with Jones, I probably wouldn't tag Barkley. He might not be willing to play on the tag, especially given his injury history. He knows this is likely his only chance to make a lot of money as a FA. Even if he does play on the tag, he'll likely be bitter about having to do so.
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In comment 16023541 Biteymax22 said:
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But go through the last 10 Super Bowl winners and see how many had running backs on large contracts...
This implies we'd actually be able to acquire three WR and TE good enough to have a playoff caliber offense in the next couple years.
I'm doubtful. I get the argument, but we aren't that close.
It has nothing to do with being close or not, it has to do with the fact that the strategy should always be devised around putting together a roster worthy of winning the Super Bowl. We're talking about 12-15 mil a year for Barkley, that money can buy 2 starters at other positions that would impact the team as much, if not more. Productive backs can be found all over the draft and in late rounds.
^This.
I think it comes down to if the Giants have the tag on whether Barkley returns. If Barkley is staring down the prospect of the tag for a year and does have a desire to be here, then maybe he takes the hit and signs for the hometown discount. I don't see him buckling before the pressure from the tag is there though and he's likely walking since 20-30% more money is available to him elsewhere.
I agree, let him walk. Signing him for more than $10-12 Mil a year is a big risk.
Then you can add in some stuip incentives if he reaches new heights. I think a contract stucktured like that could work for both sides.
Personally of the $12 Mil mark is true Id say goodbye and let him shop his services elsewhere. On the open market I dont see him getting over $12. There arecurrently only 6 teams with more than $20 mil in effective cap space and the Giants are one of them. The only teams he should even consider are the Bengals and Patriots. You have the Bears, Falcons, Texans, Seahawks and Ravens.
The Ravens are going to pay Lamar so they are probably out.
Realistically Barkleys best long term option is the Giants. I think Barkeys agents might over play their hand and lose. Remember a guy like Pacheco was a 7th round pick. The Bills whole RB room is less than $6 mil. Barkley had a really average/below avg 2nd half of the season. Id let Barkley test the waters in FA, if he signs a mega deal good luck to him.
The whole point of being in the nfl is to make good money on that first contract and then get set for life on that second contract. But everyone seems to agree makes no sense to give RB a second contract. If you are good at football play defense or WR..
I think the ceiling on his number is 12.5 with some easy incentives. Yards, TDs Games played etc... as much as I like Saquon as a player, spokesman and a good citizen who represents the team well, you simply cannot overpay the running back position.
If you can fit SB till the draft catches up and not limit your overall team building significantly fine.
Depending on Jones situation I like the tag for SB. Might as well let him test the market and see if he can bring back picks. Always a chance some team sees a high quality player and that SB would fire up the fan base as well and be willing to give up some quality picks.
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In comment 16023541 Biteymax22 said:
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But go through the last 10 Super Bowl winners and see how many had running backs on large contracts...
This implies we'd actually be able to acquire three WR and TE good enough to have a playoff caliber offense in the next couple years.
I'm doubtful. I get the argument, but we aren't that close.
It has nothing to do with being close or not, it has to do with the fact that the strategy should always be devised around putting together a roster worthy of winning the Super Bowl. We're talking about 12-15 mil a year for Barkley, that money can buy 2 starters at other positions that would impact the team as much, if not more. Productive backs can be found all over the draft and in late rounds.
Could make a similar argument for most of the WRs around here making that kind of money, though.
https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver
A guy like Pacheco in KC works because dude is literally the 5th option in that offense.
Where I'm sure we'll agree is that teams are built for success through the draft. Cost controlled high profile position players are what make the difference.
Wont convince me otherwise so don’t even try. Not to mention we don’t even know where that highly paid wide receiver is coming from…. Also not to mention Daniel Jones is probably not going to be paid a super elite QB salary, or at least it won’t be that type in 2-3 years. Because inflation. It’s real.
Also, Barkley is going to sign what likely amounts to be a three-year deal. Shit Joannes might even do something similar with a shorter big deal.
You have good team leading pillars right in front of you. Players that carried an otherwise ordinary offensive roster to playoff contention. Bark being a main catalyst. If any team was ever primed to sign their own star RB it’s this one. This isn’t the 95-1996 Giants debating over whether to re-sign Hampton. The same
Hampton who simply didn’t possess the long term staying power that Barkley clearly shows and displays just by his work ethic alone. This isn’t a team on the decline. And again where the hell is this grass is greener alternative reality player we’re missing out on? And this guy is a better contributor than Barkley? He’s going to help us more in 23-24? And we’re definitely gonna get hm? And we can’t get both? Why? Prove all of that. Or, just re-sign your own fucking star power like EVERY good team does.
I'd be working hard to get Jones done on a contract inside of my limits. (My limits would be somewhere around 4 years $160M with $110M guaranteed. Something like $50M bonus, 15/20/35/40 salaries. I'd love to pay him less, but I'm trying to be a little bit realistic here.)
If I can't get Jones done, I'm probably using some form of the tag on him, and letting Barkley walk. If he had no counter at $12.5M AAV, I'm not making a bigger offer for term.
Re-sign your own and draft well. Use FA to plug holes. Draft stars and Re-sign your own. That’s the formula we have missed on for ten years. You don’t let go one star and look to get someone else’s star, that’s just a highly flawed way to run a team.
Wont convince me otherwise so don’t even try. Not to mention we don’t even know where that highly paid wide receiver is coming from…. Also not to mention Daniel Jones is probably not going to be paid a super elite QB salary, or at least it won’t be that type in 2-3 years. Because inflation. It’s real.
Also, Barkley is going to sign what likely amounts to be a three-year deal. Shit Joannes might even do something similar with a shorter big deal.
You have good team leading pillars right in front of you. Players that carried an otherwise ordinary offensive roster to playoff contention. Bark being a main catalyst. If any team was ever primed to sign their own star RB it’s this one. This isn’t the 95-1996 Giants debating over whether to re-sign Hampton. The same
Hampton who simply didn’t possess the long term staying power that Barkley clearly shows and displays just by his work ethic alone. This isn’t a team on the decline. And again where the hell is this grass is greener alternative reality player we’re missing out on? And this guy is a better contributor than Barkley? He’s going to help us more in 23-24? And we’re definitely gonna get hm? And we can’t get both? Why? Prove all of that. Or, just re-sign your own fucking star power like EVERY good team does.
No one said you can't, but people are questioning the wisdom in it. Get your emotions out of your way, look at what posters are saying about positional value, etc while building out a contending roster. Compare and contrast with the strategies deployed by the best programs in the NFL.
Your emotions are your enemy, especially when it revolves around cap discussions, lol. You really should avoid them.
If he's not happy with that, either franchise him or let him walk and use that money to fix the interior OL so anyone running will have a better time of it.
Love the kid, hate the position. No matter how you slice it, if you keep him, that's probably 2 other holes you can't fix in FA.
Wont convince me otherwise so don’t even try.
Of course they can. If that is the strategy then any GM can strip down the roster and fit 3 highly paid Offensive players on the roster for the longer term.
Do you want to try and convince us what Schoen should do to mirror your strategy above and why that makes the most sense for the NYG's future? Or do you just want to continue to ask your obtuse hypotheticals and retort back that you're the smartest in the room?
It's a replaceable position, it just is. They could sign a decent replacement in a FA pool with a lot of talent, and then draft someone on the third day that could eventually be a starter.
It makes no sense to hurt your cap on a running back this far into his career