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| “She’s the single-best clinician I have ever been around,” Rick Burkholder, the team’s vice president of sports medicine and performance, said in a video released by the Chiefs in January, before the injury. The way the Chiefs got Mahomes is simple. They drafted him. The way the Chiefs got Frymyer was serendipitous—and it turns out they owe their Super Bowl opponent for her. The full name of the assistant athletic trainer for the Chiefs is Julie Frymyer. PHOTO: KANSAS CITY CHIEFS Frymyer is the proud owner of three degrees, and Burkholder says she probably has more education than anyone in the building. He would know. While she was getting her doctorate in physical therapy, Frymyer helped collect data for a 2010 study about fluid consumption and sweating in NFL and college football players, and she was thanked in the paper’s acknowledgments. One of the co-authors happened to be Burkholder. It would be years until their paths crossed again.,,, |
The Giants work with Quest Diagnostics and Hospital for Special Surgery...
A lot of factors go into injury and injury recovery. Its very hard to say this ONE GUY is the problem.
The Giants work with Quest Diagnostics and Hospital for Special Surgery...
A lot of factors go into injury and injury recovery. Its very hard to say this ONE GUY is the problem.
blueblood, your last para is fair, in all parts.
But what are the players going to say when asked? That he and his team don't know what they're doing?
It strikes me hard that Barnes has been at this so long that he MAY be out of touch with modern techniques and research. Doesn't Frymyer's training give pause?
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when everything I have seen from the PLAYERS say he is one of the best in the league..
The Giants work with Quest Diagnostics and Hospital for Special Surgery...
A lot of factors go into injury and injury recovery. Its very hard to say this ONE GUY is the problem.
blueblood, your last para is fair, in all parts.
But what are the players going to say when asked? That he and his team don't know what they're doing?
It strikes me hard that Barnes has been at this so long that he MAY be out of touch with modern techniques and research. Doesn't Frymyer's training give pause?
The problem the Giants have is players getting injured, not their rehab. Barnes and his staff (who likely aren't anywhere close to his age) do the treatment and rehab after they are hurt. Strength and conditioning are the ones working to prevent injuries.
And that being said, no matter what the trainers do, certain injuries simply have to heal at the rate the body heals. Trainers can do things to reduce inflammation and increase blood flow, but that is hardly rocket science that requires three degrees. I don't see anything in that article that hasn't been standard practice in physical therapy for more than a decade. And all except stim was used by trainers on me when I was in college - in 1978.
Yes, we have an injury problem-- and is it only our primarily the turf? Do Barnes and team lend insight and recommendations there? I don't know.
No, we have had rehab issues go badly wring, misjudged, mis-diagnosed:
Lemieux, Ezeudu, Ojulari, maybe Williams? Others not coming to mind.
Your case may tell all, but I'd be hard pressed to wager that there have been few advancements in rehab techniques since 1978 (:
https://www.giants.com/news/ronnie-barnes
https://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/area/ny/hospital-for-special-surgery-6212900#overview
https://www.hss.edu
BEST ORTHOPEDICS HOSPITALS
#1 Hospital for Special Surgery
#2 Mayo Clinic
#3 Cedars-Sinai Medical Center
#4 NYU Langone Orthopedic Hospital
#5 Midwest Orthopaedics at Rush University Medical Center
Link - ( New Window )
And the new MetLife surface must have more give than the current one. Obviously grass is ideal but absent that there must be better turf options than the curent turf they are using for the field.
Yes, those credentials are 'world class', but it's also not uncommon for such ratings to become stale.
I had an ACL repair done by an up and coming HSS surgeon in 2000, and I got an infection for my trouble, 6 months of vancomycin through a pic line. So, yes, maybe I'm biased lol
Giants need to certainly keep trying to figure this out and fix it. Agree that a lot of this is in the training and I would also look at the players they are drafting to see if anything comes out of that. Then the playing surfaces.
I think what could really help this is just have more better players. With such a long history of poor drafting this is compounded with poorer talent in depth so when the injuries surface it has devastating results. This is especially true on the fronts which still need a lot of work on the starters.
They already have a LOS issue and when injuries hit here it will impact the whole operation.
No shortage of complaints about the turf. There has to be state of the art: why does it seem so difficult to know it?
Yes, we have an injury problem-- and is it only our primarily the turf? Do Barnes and team lend insight and recommendations there? I don't know.
No, we have had rehab issues go badly wring, misjudged, mis-diagnosed:
Lemieux, Ezeudu, Ojulari, maybe Williams? Others not coming to mind.
Your case may tell all, but I'd be hard pressed to wager that there have been few advancements in rehab techniques since 1978 (:
Of course trainers share with the team doc and others what they are seeing as players rehab. But trainers don't diagnose injuries, team docs do. The idea that Barnes and all the other trainers the Giants employ are behind the times is silly. Heck, Barnes probably rarely does any hands on rehab work with players anymore. He's now an administrator.
And how do you know anyone was misdiagnosed? Because people on this site said it would take Ojulari 2 weeks to come back from a pulled calf muscle? They were likely the same ones who said after reading the description of how he fell like he was shot during sprints and had to be helped to the locker room by trainers that it sounded just like a cramp they had had at some point. Or because people here said Neal would certainly be back and healthy in four weeks, when no one here had any idea how much damage there was. Because Ezeudu had shoulder surgery after the description of it as a neck injury? The two can and often are related. Because Lemieux came back and aggravated his injury? No one here has any idea what the diagnosis is on any injury because they aren't in the room. Remember Jones' neck injury that many here said would end his career? Teams don't give out detailed injury info. There is no benefit to them doing that.
Similar thoughts on the athletes drafted, some players just strike me as thick and durable, like a Pacheco as long as we're talking about Chiefs, of course he's in his rookie season (:. Will Ojulari ever play a full 17 game season?
It seems to me that Schoen did a good job rounding out the staff with QC type slots, more of this kind for sports medicine
As to the board's assessments of players' injuries, yeah, it's a potpourri for sure (:, and we don't have the inside'story'. My impression, and I believe that of many others, is that this is a problem area for the team
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In comment 16024463 blueblood said:
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when everything I have seen from the PLAYERS say he is one of the best in the league..
The Giants work with Quest Diagnostics and Hospital for Special Surgery...
A lot of factors go into injury and injury recovery. Its very hard to say this ONE GUY is the problem.
blueblood, your last para is fair, in all parts.
But what are the players going to say when asked? That he and his team don't know what they're doing?
It strikes me hard that Barnes has been at this so long that he MAY be out of touch with modern techniques and research. Doesn't Frymyer's training give pause?
The problem the Giants have is players getting injured, not their rehab. Barnes and his staff (who likely aren't anywhere close to his age) do the treatment and rehab after they are hurt. Strength and conditioning are the ones working to prevent injuries.
And that being said, no matter what the trainers do, certain injuries simply have to heal at the rate the body heals. Trainers can do things to reduce inflammation and increase blood flow, but that is hardly rocket science that requires three degrees. I don't see anything in that article that hasn't been standard practice in physical therapy for more than a decade. And all except stim was used by trainers on me when I was in college - in 1978.
Simply amazing how the Barnes narrative continues to ignore this fact.
Now if research indicates the Giants ‘ player personnel takes longer to recover from injury, that s a different discussion about Barnes
Went back to Burkholder's title: VP of Sorts Medicine and Performance. What are Schoen's words, 'tough, reliable, dependable'?
Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the strength and conditioning team also roll up under Barnes within the organization?
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Barnes and his staff (who likely aren't anywhere close to his age) do the treatment and rehab after they are hurt. Strength and conditioning are the ones working to prevent injuries.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the strength and conditioning team also roll up under Barnes within the organization?
The strength and conditioning coach is selected by the head coach, not Barnes. That logically means that person reports to Daboll.
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Something is really wrong when we consistently have players missing more games than most teams. Shoen needs to fix this.
Amen
So when a player tears an ACL or a calf muscle that's Barnes' fault? The lack of understanding among many here of what the trainers' responsibilities are is amazing. Blaming Barnes for injuries is like blaming Daboll for salary cap issues.
I guess it's the Yankees trainers' fault that Montas might need surgery, or that Severino injured his shoulder, then his elbow. Then his hamstring and then his elbow again. Or that LeMahieu's toe injury didn't heal last season.
section, you're saying Mahomes, certainly closer to this than anyone on this board, is full of it? That's what you're saying?
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In comment 16024492 k2tampa said:
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Barnes and his staff (who likely aren't anywhere close to his age) do the treatment and rehab after they are hurt. Strength and conditioning are the ones working to prevent injuries.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the strength and conditioning team also roll up under Barnes within the organization?
The strength and conditioning coach is selected by the head coach, not Barnes. That logically means that person reports to Daboll.
Ronnie Barnes Senior Vice President, Medical Services/Head Athletic Trainer
Giants front office - ( New Window )
And, Ronnie Barnes was one of the few allowed to visit Wellington Mara on his deathbed. He’s basically a member of the Mara family and isn’t going anywhere until he’s ready to retire.
And, Ronnie Barnes was one of the few allowed to visit Wellington Mara on his deathbed. He’s basically a member of the Mara family and isn’t going anywhere until he’s ready to retire.
Spider, thanks. I think your comment on the timing of injuries has merit, it does seem a disproportionate number occur post-draft and leading into/during camp.
But I don't know why you say Barnes is not likely to have a say in how off-season conditioning is run: wouldn't that likely be right in the wheelhouse of conditioning/performance mandate?
I've thought about the Mara element of this as the thread has wended its way: I suspect your point is spot on, and the question then might be, IF RB is mostly a figurehead only at this point, does that make it easier to make changes that improve the overall strength/conditioning/performance team and approach? That is to say Giants make changes where protocols and programs are being conceived and implemented, below the top.
LOL, keep her away from Toney, very few here want to see him in uni on Sunday, Mahomes a different matter.
Dr. Warren was on the sideline in the Parcells years. Change doesn't come easily in MaraLand. I think long term organizational loyalty is what every employee wishes for if their work for good people. I have no reason to think he Mara's are anything but good people. It's not surprising to me that employee loyalty over many decades leads to performance issues. Name someone in the world of sports that's keeping up with the cutting edge after 30 or 40 years on the job.
I'm sure by now Joe Schoen has found that using magnets was a metaphor for the entire organization being decades behind the most progressive teams in the NFL. Hopefully he can navigate the internal politics to improve the product on field while keeping the Mara family happy.
The linked article is 10 years old but I think it's worth reading. It was written by Greg Hanlon who just wrote a book with Tom Coughlin about Super Bowl 42. Is he related to Pat Hanlon?
Is Longtime Trainer Ronnie Barnes the Most Powerful Man in New York Football? - ( New Window )
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but Mahomes was staggering around out there last week, was limping all over and almost came out after one play, had the Bengals not called time out. I doubt he was any better than any other player with a high ankle sprain, except for necessity and maybe a high tolerance for pain. As the game wore on he was limping more and more.
section, you're saying Mahomes, certainly closer to this than anyone on this board, is full of it? That's what you're saying?
Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. You know as well as I do how long it takes for a true high ankle sprain to heal. Now, LT did play with a broken ankle and torn pec muscle, but Mahomes is not LT.
Mahomes may start out ok, but as he is chased, that ankle will get worse and worse. It will be week 3 at the SB, but he also played on it last week, so I am sure it did not help the healing process.
Will it be better than in the AFCC game - probably, but very hard to believe he will be even 90%.
1). Players seem happy - you actually would know if they were not. See Cleveland a few years ago or Washington with Trent Williams. Additionally, any well compensated player would be getting outside care if they were unhappy.
2). They are working with top notch professionals, in a market with some of the best, or at least highest priced, people in the world.
3). All public impression of the Mara's is that they do not chince on this kind of cost, and that they actually do care about their people.
The one piece of evidence is the number of injuries. Virtually impossible to determine cause. based on available evidence two explanations are most likely:
1). Bad field - I have seen arguments on both sides on this, and have not dug into the numbers myself. But it seems plausible that this is possible.
2). Bad luck - people seem to discount this, but this is likely the biggest part of the explanation. While it is statistically incredibly unlikely that the Giants would have luck this bad, it is somewhere between mildly unlikely to nearly certain, that some team would have this much bad luck. It could be just us. How likely that a person will be struck by lighting in a given year? Either nearly zero (if you mean this person) to nearly guaranteed (if you mean some random person in this country this year).
Obviously, it could be both of these plus staff issues, draft strategy, etc. But to blame Ronnie Barnes with no evidence of his fault is just wrong.
Magnets, oh, the horror, the horror
I'm sure by now Joe Schoen has found that using magnets was a metaphor for the entire organization being decades behind the most progressive teams in the NFL. Hopefully he can navigate the internal politics to improve the product on field while keeping the Mara family happy.
So, yeah, I have no problem giving her all the credit in the world: Mahomes knew how much pain he was in week of Jan. 22. He came out and played, played well, even 'heroically'.
I'd also part ways with you a bit on according HSS, Warren, Langone, et al. full faith and confidence based solely on their past reps. Institutions get stale. Science and protocols of dealing with injury prevention and treatment keep progressing: when you have the long time recurring issues the team has had, you have to re-examine how these are being handled and self scout. Not to do so is 'malpractice', imo. Maybe RB and Co. come out with a glowing bill of health. But you have to assess.
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...Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. You know as well as I do how long it takes for a true high ankle sprain to heal. Now, LT did play with a broken ankle and torn pec muscle, but Mahomes is not LT.
I would agree and fd I've never had one, but I 'know' based on the track record of athletes who incur it. Didn't Eli have one, and he sat for several games? Not the plantar fascitis, but the ankle? So, to my way of seeing it, what Frymyer did to get PM to that level of performance is quite remarkable.
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Mahomes may start out ok, but as he is chased, that ankle will get worse and worse. It will be week 3 at the SB, but he also played on it last week, so I am sure it did not help the healing process.
Fully agree, the swelling and stress on the soft tissue is going to be cumulative, and the hill to climb gets steeper. I am just not seeing her work in the same light you apparently do. As you suggest, healing of a HAS is a very tough road to hoe. I think Mahomes knows that and his hat tip to her was fully genuine and grateful, keeping him in this SB run.
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Will it be better than in the AFCC game - probably, but very hard to believe he will be even 90%.
Agree and that would be astonishing, again, to my way of thinking. The way he finished the Jags' game, I'd say he was, maybe, 40%-50%, if that? Of course these numbers are silly, but he had trouble even moving around in the pocket.
So, yeah, I have no problem giving her all the credit in the world: Mahomes knew how much pain he was in week of Jan. 22. He came out and played, played well, even 'heroically'.
Eli never missed a game, except for when he sat himself out of spite when Geno played.
I have no doubt that the KC trainer has been doing tremendous work - Mahomes said 4-5 hours per day treatments. I certainly did not mean to disparage her work. I just do not believe that he will be well/healed despite the heroic work she is doing. Yes, perhaps the treatments will aid in repairing the torn ligaments. There is a reason that some of these sprains end up in a boot, immobilization helps.
I hope, for our sake it does work and Patrick can slay the dragon in Glendale..It is the last game of the year. He has to survive about 30 minutes of play and then has 4 months to heal.
Whether, to the thrust of the OP and whether the Giants are self-scouting in this aspect of its operations, is another matter. Hopefully NYG do.
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when everything I have seen from the PLAYERS say he is one of the best in the league..
The Giants work with Quest Diagnostics and Hospital for Special Surgery...
A lot of factors go into injury and injury recovery. Its very hard to say this ONE GUY is the problem.
blueblood, your last para is fair, in all parts.
But what are the players going to say when asked? That he and his team don't know what they're doing?
It strikes me hard that Barnes has been at this so long that he MAY be out of touch with modern techniques and research. Doesn't Frymyer's training give pause?
I would think all these trainers take constant refresher courses on a regular basis.