...top 10 in NFL.
"“He is going to be the best quarterback in the NFC East,” Tiki said. “I know that Jalen Hurts is a stud, I know that he's amazing, got all these accolades, but he's also got a lot around him. He's got a lot around him.”
Hmmmm... ok - (
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DJ from his college career until now has not had one WR ever to throw to that could sniff a pro-bowl.
DJ has been one of the most accurate passers in the entire NFL and florished in Daboll’s system despite having poor pass pro and very little to throw to for most of the year.
DJ from his college career until now has not had one WR ever to throw to that could sniff a pro-bowl.
DJ has been one of the most accurate passers in the entire NFL and florished in Daboll’s system despite having poor pass pro and very little to throw to for most of the year.
All true.
I would say that some of the things we've already seen are contained in CornerStone's post.
Joe montana isn’t Joe montana if he’s drafted by the falcons.
Tough concept to absorb.
Never? Your argument kind of loses steam with that absolute statement, at least with me
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and their QB's, but to dismiss Hurts because he only looks good with talent is kinda silly IMO. One could make a pretty cogent argument that Jones has never looked good (including college), .
Never? Your argument kind of loses steam with that absolute statement, at least with me
Exactly. You see, this is the perfect example of someone that is so clouded by their hate for Daniel Jones, that they have an inability to make an intelligent post about him.
Forget his first few years in the pros or his college years - let’s just focus on this past season. If you can sit there with a straight face and say that he’s never played well at any point during this past season, then you should probably just stop watching football all together. Because at that point, I’m not even sure we’re watching the same sport.
Can’t assume continued growth season over season? Does this apply to all players in general, or just Daniel Jones?
Do you still think he would have the numbers he has?
The reasons why Purdy was draft last are still there, you have a coaching staff that put him in position to be successful and talent around him that makes him look phenomenal.
Philly is a Uber talented team and Hurts get lifted by that talent he is a good QB regardless but a superstar is more to do with the talent around him.
Jones provides the tools necessary to be able to be lifted by talent places around him, how high that's for debate but his starting point is good enough to warrant tiki's comments
Joe montana isn’t Joe montana if he’s drafted by the falcons.
Tough concept to absorb.
QBs have to be graded in context to the talent and just as importantly coaching around them. When properly taken in account DJ has done admirably. Next year could be a big one if they get him a bonafide #1 WR as we have seen with so many young QBs taking that leap after getting a #1 wideout.
Jones could be eventually be the best. I think his arm is better than Jalen, but right now hurts is a step ahead, IMHO.
This take is basically Tiki kissing NYGs ass to try and make up for publicly being a dick to Eli-Coughlin who went on to win multiple Super Bowls without him.
The hits DJ took this year on average were less severe than previous years because Daboll and staff taught him how to be much more strategic with his scrambling for extra yards. Sure he took some hits this year but he only fought for yards during more critical situations and generally slid or went out of bounds otherwise.
This take is basically Tiki kissing NYGs ass to try and make up for publicly being a dick to Eli-Coughlin who went on to win multiple Super Bowls without him.
Ridiculous.
Tike doesn't have to "kiss the Giants' ass" for his statements about Eli. It was a LONG time ago. Fans who still haven't forgiven Tiki (for simply voicing his opinion as a member of the media) aren't going to let go of their grudge, just because Tiki made a positive comment about Jones.
Here's a thought. Maybe Tiki's comments about Eli (then) and Jones (now) were his honest opinions.
Does he have a timetable on when this might happen, or is this like most of BBI? There's some magical time in the future when the Giants improve the OLine, get 2 stud WRs, a stud TE, and
then DJ will put up numbers like a real franchise QB. We should definitely overpay him until it happens though, amirite?
Does he have a timetable on when this might happen, or is this like most of BBI? There's some magical time in the future when the Giants improve the OLine, get 2 stud WRs, a stud TE, and
then DJ will put up numbers like a real franchise QB. We should definitely overpay him until it happens though, amirite?
what is "amirite"
This take is basically Tiki kissing NYGs ass to try and make up for publicly being a dick to Eli-Coughlin who went on to win multiple Super Bowls without him.
This has been litigated a million times..TC was being an asshole. Tiki was getting too banged up and didn't want to start over again. Strahan also considered retiring. TC then got the hint and had player council and leaders to help him communicate. Somewhere in between dickhead and dad is where TC landed which helped Eli and company. It's not all Tiki
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but it hasn't happened yet.
This take is basically Tiki kissing NYGs ass to try and make up for publicly being a dick to Eli-Coughlin who went on to win multiple Super Bowls without him.
This has been litigated a million times..TC was being an asshole. Tiki was getting too banged up and didn't want to start over again. Strahan also considered retiring. TC then got the hint and had player council and leaders to help him communicate. Somewhere in between dickhead and dad is where TC landed which helped Eli and company. It's not all Tiki
This. I think many people forget that Coughlin was on the hot seat early in 2007. The team was underachieving considering the talent they had on the roster. Top 5 offensive line, Eli, Burress, Toomer, Shockey (most of the year), Strahan, Pierce, etc. When some were saying this past season had a 2007 feel after the Vikings game I had to laugh because that 2007 team should have been like 13-3 with the talent they had. It took a mid season change with the players council to turn things around. The team we watched this past season was flying on a wing and a prayer from a talent standpoint.
Hurts is good. Only time will tell if Jones passes him by.
But I am looking forward to his second year under Daboll.
#2 Neal gets better coaching (he's a 6'7" 350 pound brute playing patty-cake with defensive ends); #3 Jones needs a REAL "X" receiver - that's how he becomes the best QB in the EAST.
Hurts is good. Only time will tell if Jones passes him by.
Well said.
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Qbs are helped or hindered by the team they play on.
Joe montana isn’t Joe montana if he’s drafted by the falcons.
Tough concept to absorb.
QBs have to be graded in context to the talent and just as importantly coaching around them. When properly taken in account DJ has done admirably. Next year could be a big one if they get him a bonafide #1 WR as we have seen with so many young QBs taking that leap after getting a #1 wideout.
I am a fan of Jones and feel good about his age and progression frankly. It is definitely troubling that his TD ratio has not grown meaningfully but I am in the group that his WR's are as much to blame for that weakness as he is. My hope is that we acquire a real WR1 either through a trade or the draft...even at 25. And If he shits the bed after having the tools in front of him it will be on Jones..not the OL or lack of Saquon if he leaves etc. I am 80% in on Jones and prescribe to the idea he should be signed for $100M for 4 with about $70M guaranteed for 3. I could even elevate the total value to maybe $200M over 5 if the guaranty is about the same. It is all about the cap hit while we are building out this team offensively. They need a dynamic WR who was obviously not on the roster this year. If they find a guy like that either through the draft or trade and they invest further in the line or or develop O line talent to protect him, it should be a fun year.
We saw Hurts last year with an ordinary supporting cast. With apologies to all the puff pieces on how hard he worked to improve his throwing etc. BullShit on a shingle. I'm sure he did, but the dramatic increase in stats can be attributed to his supporting cast. Hurts has always been a front-running QB on stacked teams going back to his Alabama and OU days. People like Micah Parsons and plenty of others are saying the same.
Imagine having the best Offensive Line in the league + 2 #1 WRs to throw to? + Dallas Goedert at TE? Cmon now.
He's a "winner" like Barry Switzer's a "winner".
Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Jones.
We saw Hurts last year with an ordinary supporting cast. With apologies to all the puff pieces on how hard he worked to improve his throwing etc. BullShit on a shingle. I'm sure he did, but the dramatic increase in stats can be attributed to his supporting cast. Hurts has always been a front-running QB on stacked teams going back to his Alabama and OU days. People like Micah Parsons and plenty of others are saying the same.
Imagine having the best Offensive Line in the league + 2 #1 WRs to throw to? + Dallas Goedert at TE? Cmon now.
He's a "winner" like Barry Switzer's a "winner".
Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Jones.
Yea.. what Jalen Hurts does is so easy.
We saw Hurts last year with an ordinary supporting cast. With apologies to all the puff pieces on how hard he worked to improve his throwing etc. BullShit on a shingle. I'm sure he did, but the dramatic increase in stats can be attributed to his supporting cast. Hurts has always been a front-running QB on stacked teams going back to his Alabama and OU days. People like Micah Parsons and plenty of others are saying the same.
Imagine having the best Offensive Line in the league + 2 #1 WRs to throw to? + Dallas Goedert at TE? Cmon now.
He's a "winner" like Barry Switzer's a "winner".
Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Jones.
I think you showed you can overstate it.
We saw Hurts last year with an ordinary supporting cast. With apologies to all the puff pieces on how hard he worked to improve his throwing etc. BullShit on a shingle. I'm sure he did, but the dramatic increase in stats can be attributed to his supporting cast. Hurts has always been a front-running QB on stacked teams going back to his Alabama and OU days. People like Micah Parsons and plenty of others are saying the same.
Imagine having the best Offensive Line in the league + 2 #1 WRs to throw to? + Dallas Goedert at TE? Cmon now.
He's a "winner" like Barry Switzer's a "winner".
Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Jones.
Re: Barry Switzer - how did Wade Phillips' 2007 Cowboys that had 13 Pro Bowlers do?
Was he a good coach? No, but he was good enough that year, and I'm betting there are other coaches that would have failed to win the Superbowl with Switzer's team.
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You can't overstate how easy it is to play QB in the conditions Hurts has. I don't think I've ever seen a guy with a cleaner pocket or more room to step into throws. They don't even have to throw because their OL is wiping people off the field. The level Lane Johnson and Kelce are playing at now is rarely seen.
We saw Hurts last year with an ordinary supporting cast. With apologies to all the puff pieces on how hard he worked to improve his throwing etc. BullShit on a shingle. I'm sure he did, but the dramatic increase in stats can be attributed to his supporting cast. Hurts has always been a front-running QB on stacked teams going back to his Alabama and OU days. People like Micah Parsons and plenty of others are saying the same.
Imagine having the best Offensive Line in the league + 2 #1 WRs to throw to? + Dallas Goedert at TE? Cmon now.
He's a "winner" like Barry Switzer's a "winner".
Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Jones.
I think you showed you can overstate it.
This is overstated. Granted they made Hurts job much easier but he is also doing very well within the confines of the system too.
Daniel Jones at least in my view could play at a much higher level if given anything near what Hurts had to play with this year. However that doesn't take away from what Hurts is doing either.
The QB position is discussed especially as it relates to Jalen Hurts and any time DJ plays poorly as essentially a position that plays only as well as it's supporting cast.
So if that is the case what is the point of making a player the highest paid by far if your argument is based on the supporting cast mattering so much?
The QB position is discussed especially as it relates to Jalen Hurts and any time DJ plays poorly as essentially a position that plays only as well as it's supporting cast.
So if that is the case what is the point of making a player the highest paid by far if your argument is based on the supporting cast mattering so much?
Jones won me over this year but this is still something I think about.
Based off the logic that Hurts is a below average to mediocre QB who happens to be surrounded by talent that allowed him to play at an MVP level, what sense does it make for the Eagles to extend him or for the Giants to resign Jones?
The Eagles could simply squeeze the last cheap year out of Hurts in 2023, then let him walk, resign any of the free agents they would have after next year to keep the band together, and then let anyone play QB and they'd be able to do what Hurts has done.
In a similar vein, instead of paying Jones even 35-40 million a year, the Giants could resign Barkley for a 1/3 of the cost of Jones per year, go out and acquire a receiver like a Higgins or Aiyuk in free agency, pay them, plus draft a receiver or two and take some lotto ticket flier on a young back to alleviate some of the load on Barkley and still have the money to extend the likes of Lawrence, Thomas and Love. They could then surround a cheaper drafted QB or vet QB with all of that talent and go out and compete.
With all of that being said, I still think bringing back Jones is the move, but I think people who want to detract from Hurts while also providing excuses for Jones (who would surely make no excuses himself) need to rethink their argument.
The QB position is discussed especially as it relates to Jalen Hurts and any time DJ plays poorly as essentially a position that plays only as well as it's supporting cast.
So if that is the case what is the point of making a player the highest paid by far if your argument is based on the supporting cast mattering so much?
The QB is the engine. Without the QB it doesn't matter how good the chassis, the frame, the wheels , the gears are. Also it is much harder to find an elite QB than almost any other position. Its also why the QB makes by far the most money. The NFL obviously sees it that way too. The value of something is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it.
His only "improvement" will be if he wins in the playoffs. That's his future moving forward. Does he win?
Hurts I think will show more flaws/return to middle of pack as the Eagles OL digresses (it should over time right?) and he begins to take more of the NFL bumps and bruises. I see him as a version of Steve McNair, less the pure passing skills but a better runner. I think it will be difficult for him to maintain the run/option style over a period of time.
WSH has no one right now.
DJ has to really start making that leap next year and hopefully will with more talent and scheme around him.
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of a fatal hole in their logic.
The QB position is discussed especially as it relates to Jalen Hurts and any time DJ plays poorly as essentially a position that plays only as well as it's supporting cast.
So if that is the case what is the point of making a player the highest paid by far if your argument is based on the supporting cast mattering so much?
The QB is the engine. Without the QB it doesn't matter how good the chassis, the frame, the wheels , the gears are. Also it is much harder to find an elite QB than almost any other position. Its also why the QB makes by far the most money. The NFL obviously sees it that way too. The value of something is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it.
You seem to be missing the point. When people want to say Hurts is succeeding because of the talent around him and Jones looks bad against good defenses because of the talent around him then you are making the opposite argument of the QB being the “engine.”
Also how many people are saying Jones is likely an elite QB? Yes finding an elite QB is hard but committing heavy resources to a non-elite QB makes it even harder.
If you want to talk about the supporting cast on the Eagles it is impossible to ignore that they were willing to start over with an unknown commodity at QB on a rookie deal as a means of having the resources to build an excellent supporting cast.
Finally, do you know who talked in a lot of cliches? DG. The "QB is the engine" may sound smart but when it came down to it for him and a lot of other people who think in broad strokes like that, cliches kind of fundamentally lack attention to detail. He messed up cap management severely and that kind of thinking goes along with it. There is actually not much evidence that paying a lot of money for a QB that has shown as much as Jones is a good idea. So pointing to precedent is really pointing to a bad track and isn't a good point.
This kind of thinking is fan thinking by Tiki, shared by many here and unfortunately by Giants ownership. Paying a player on potential with better talent around them is a mistake. Which is exacerbated by the idea that paying him handsomely is in direct opposition to the success of the goal of surrounding him with more talent.
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of a fatal hole in their logic.
The QB position is discussed especially as it relates to Jalen Hurts and any time DJ plays poorly as essentially a position that plays only as well as it's supporting cast.
So if that is the case what is the point of making a player the highest paid by far if your argument is based on the supporting cast mattering so much?
Jones won me over this year but this is still something I think about.
Based off the logic that Hurts is a below average to mediocre QB who happens to be surrounded by talent that allowed him to play at an MVP level, what sense does it make for the Eagles to extend him or for the Giants to resign Jones?
The Eagles could simply squeeze the last cheap year out of Hurts in 2023, then let him walk, resign any of the free agents they would have after next year to keep the band together, and then let anyone play QB and they'd be able to do what Hurts has done.
In a similar vein, instead of paying Jones even 35-40 million a year, the Giants could resign Barkley for a 1/3 of the cost of Jones per year, go out and acquire a receiver like a Higgins or Aiyuk in free agency, pay them, plus draft a receiver or two and take some lotto ticket flier on a young back to alleviate some of the load on Barkley and still have the money to extend the likes of Lawrence, Thomas and Love. They could then surround a cheaper drafted QB or vet QB with all of that talent and go out and compete.
With all of that being said, I still think bringing back Jones is the move, but I think people who want to detract from Hurts while also providing excuses for Jones (who would surely make no excuses himself) need to rethink their argument.
Only a few have swung the narrative to the extreme other end and are asserting Hurts is a below average QB. He has proven this year that he is at minumum a decent to very good QB who is an excellent fit in the system Sirianni designed for him. Obviously the fact that he has both an excellent pass pro OL and basically two #1's to throw to and a good TE in Goeddert to boot , that doesn't hurt either.
Can’t assume continued growth season over season? Does this apply to all players in general, or just Daniel Jones?
Forget about his past three NFL seasons. Or the four collegiate seasons before that. Or the high school seasons before that (you don't usually end up a 0-star recruit by playing great). And also, please forget about any games this season that weren't especially great.
But if you can narrow it down to just those half-dozen really great games this past season, you can almost challenge that point entirely!
The discussion of whether it's wise to pay any QB a max contract is a different conversation.
It's a chicken and egg scenario - you need a great QB, but you also need a great supporting cast. The great GMs put it all together.
From a high level business model - the NFL as an ownership group wants to pay franchise QBs huge salaries. They want these guys to become celebrities. It's a QB-driven league, not just on the field, but in the wallet. They look for that guy they can give a huge contract too, and then push. It's bigger than football, or a proper allocation of salary cap.
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Forget his first few years in the pros or his college years - let’s just focus on this past season. If you can sit there with a straight face and say that he’s never played well at any point during this past season, then you should probably just stop watching football all together. Because at that point, I’m not even sure we’re watching the same sport.
Can’t assume continued growth season over season? Does this apply to all players in general, or just Daniel Jones?
Forget about his past three NFL seasons. Or the four collegiate seasons before that. Or the high school seasons before that (you don't usually end up a 0-star recruit by playing great). And also, please forget about any games this season that weren't especially great.
But if you can narrow it down to just those half-dozen really great games this past season, you can almost challenge that point entirely!
Nicely done Dunk!
Because they are going to anyway and you hope that it backfires - ie he gets exposed whenever (if ever) their like declines.
Personally I’d rather have Hurts than Jones but that isn’t really a knock on Jones. He’s a borderline top 10 QB and Hurts is a top 10 QB. Gotta just hope they pay Hurts way more than we pay Jones.
Come on. This is absurd.
The discussion of whether it's wise to pay any QB a max contract is a different conversation.
It's a chicken and egg scenario - you need a great QB, but you also need a great supporting cast. The great GMs put it all together.
From a high level business model - the NFL as an ownership group wants to pay franchise QBs huge salaries. They want these guys to become celebrities. It's a QB-driven league, not just on the field, but in the wallet. They look for that guy they can give a huge contract too, and then push. It's bigger than football, or a proper allocation of salary cap.
"The discussion of whether it's wise to pay any QB a max contract is a different conversation."
This is the only conversation that matters. NFL owners do not want to pay franchise QBs huge salaries. They have to.
The problem with paying guys like Cousins, Carr, Jones, Tannehill, etc. the massive salaries they command is you are at a significant disadvantage compared to teams with top QBs.
At some point the better option is to build a powerhouse team like the 49ers and cycle through cheap QBs until you find a great one. That is the only chance to beat the teams with the top QBs.
What the Raiders are doing is really smart. Paying Derek Carr $40M a year when Mahomes in their division is getting $45M is asinine. They have to build a better all around team if they are going to have a chance at winning their division.
Let's hope at some point the market corrects itself but until then this is the reality of the NFL.
This take is basically Tiki kissing NYGs ass to try and make up for publicly being a dick to Eli-Coughlin who went on to win multiple Super Bowls without him.
First off it did happen. 2022.
Second Tiki has taken the Giants to task plenty of times this last month so your last point is false as well.
Maybe Tiki just really likes Jones? Try and come to grips.
Come on. This is absurd.
Not quite. In this scenario our team would be a lot better than theirs, which is the crux of the discussion here. Hurts on the current Giants roster might have them in the playoffs but definitely not the Super Bowl.
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In comment 16024591 CooperDash said:
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Forget his first few years in the pros or his college years - let’s just focus on this past season. If you can sit there with a straight face and say that he’s never played well at any point during this past season, then you should probably just stop watching football all together. Because at that point, I’m not even sure we’re watching the same sport.
Can’t assume continued growth season over season? Does this apply to all players in general, or just Daniel Jones?
Forget about his past three NFL seasons. Or the four collegiate seasons before that. Or the high school seasons before that (you don't usually end up a 0-star recruit by playing great). And also, please forget about any games this season that weren't especially great.
But if you can narrow it down to just those half-dozen really great games this past season, you can almost challenge that point entirely!
Nicely done Dunk!
I thought it was argumentative and misses the point that so many are hung up on it being year 4 when we should probably be focused on the guy finally playing in a functioning situation. Also, you can now look at some of the glimpses we did see in 2021 and even 19-20 and maybe take those glimpses with less grains of salt.
But that's just me. I think it's foolish to place more emphasis on 19-21 than 2022. I know it's one year.
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In comment 16025145 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16024591 CooperDash said:
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Forget his first few years in the pros or his college years - let’s just focus on this past season. If you can sit there with a straight face and say that he’s never played well at any point during this past season, then you should probably just stop watching football all together. Because at that point, I’m not even sure we’re watching the same sport.
Can’t assume continued growth season over season? Does this apply to all players in general, or just Daniel Jones?
Forget about his past three NFL seasons. Or the four collegiate seasons before that. Or the high school seasons before that (you don't usually end up a 0-star recruit by playing great). And also, please forget about any games this season that weren't especially great.
But if you can narrow it down to just those half-dozen really great games this past season, you can almost challenge that point entirely!
Nicely done Dunk!
I thought it was argumentative and misses the point that so many are hung up on it being year 4 when we should probably be focused on the guy finally playing in a functioning situation. Also, you can now look at some of the glimpses we did see in 2021 and even 19-20 and maybe take those glimpses with less grains of salt.
But that's just me. I think it's foolish to place more emphasis on 19-21 than 2022. I know it's one year.
+1 on this perspective. I think you nailed it djm. He has to be graded within the context of how often when there actually was a play to be made, did he either make the best one or one close to it. Because with what he has had for most of his career combined with some pretty bad systems his opportunity to make great plays was much fewer and far between let's say with what Hurts had this year.
Dak is Dak. He's an average QB with good weapons. Jones wasthe better QB this year despite the lower talent around him. Plus Daboll is a better coach and now Dallashas Shottenheimer so not expected Dak to explode.
Who knows who is going to play QB for the Redskins.
name one position on offense that you wouldn't rather have the Eagles situation over the Giants..
LT...maybe?
name one position on offense that you wouldn't rather have the Eagles situation over the Giants..
LT...maybe?
LT, QB, RB and maybe RT hopefully as soon as next year. But yeah point taken, their offense is clearly better in most areas.