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| Part of an NFL Offseason Predictions Article in the Athletic with 5 Prections: 4. Prediction: The Giants will not overcommit to Daniel Jones or Saquon Barkley, giving themselves flexibility to draft a quarterback in 2024. I’m banking on the Giants signing both players for less than the franchise-tag values at their positions. Under this scenario, the team would use the franchise or transition tag to help leverage a workable multi-year deal with Barkley before free agency. At quarterback, the Giants would offer Jones a shorter-term deal at less than the $32 million annual average associated with the franchise tag. The team would be betting on Daboll’s ability to get more from a cheaper free-agent quarterback (or a rookie) if Jones thought he could find a better situation elsewhere. The hope would be that Jones might value Daboll’s role in his development sufficiently to accept such a deal. It all sounds so easy, but the Giants face a balancing act as they seek to reward Jones and Barkley for strong seasons while maintaining long-term flexibility. “For a team that is just getting out of cap trouble, they would be wise to slow-play it, but it is really hard to slow-play two guys,” another exec said. “When you are setting up a program, you want to send the right message to your players, to your coaches. The message is almost as important as the dollars.” - more linked below - Prediction 4 continues comparing the Giants situation with Barkley to the Rams Situation with RB Todd Gurley in 2017 |
That said, the Vikings offense asks a tremendous amount more of Cousins. Cousins averaged close to 10 more attempts per game, had 1800 more intended air yards, and was hit 30 more times (most in the league).
I'm not sure either guy would do as well if they swappped situations. I don't think Cousins has the wheels to play the style of ball the Giants do. And I don't think Jones has the pocket presence and ability to hold on until the last second like Cousins does.
That said, the Vikings offense asks a tremendous amount more of Cousins. Cousins averaged close to 10 more attempts per game, had 1800 more intended air yards, and was hit 30 more times (most in the league).
I'm not sure either guy would do as well if they swappped situations. I don't think Cousins has the wheels to play the style of ball the Giants do. And I don't think Jones has the pocket presence and ability to hold on until the last second like Cousins does.
This is quite fair.
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That's cool. I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't call you names. I don't think we know what BD and JS think. Whether they believe in him or not the statements may look exactly the same. HCs and GMs rarely bash their QB.
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Producer, I agree the contract will tell a story.
On the organization, you kind of get senses of what they think and you piece it together. I see greatness in this kid. I really do. Everyone of the Giants bigtime QBs of the last 40 years went through a 'rite of passage' so to speak before they became great. First Simms and then Eli. Lots amd lots of fans questioning them until they emerged. With DJ he has had just some disgustingly bad components around him. I see him making plays and sometimes special ones in the many fewer opportunies he has been afforded due to usually 2 of the 3 of pass pro, receivers or system being extremely unfavorable or poor.
He has special wiring . He never complains, always fights. DG when they selected him said they were blown away by the way the kid handles adversity. The talent is there too and now that we have a respectable system , it will come out when there are enough adequate or better pieces around him. Hopefully with a good JS offseason, it'll be next year.
Sorry, I must have missed this last night. I really do not see these special qualities, other than he runs well into the open field and once there he is getting better weaving through traffic.
I see a QB hampered by some severe limitations in the passing game. There are a few things he does well. He's gotten much better rolling right and throwing on the run. He does a better job looking downfield amid pressure. He is accurate and shows nice zip on intermediate crossers. These are good things. I have listed other qualities I think are deficits ad nauseum and I'll spare you a list here, but I think they outweigh the good.
I'm not as enthused by this "special wiring", doesn't complain, seems tough stuff. A lot of QBs have this makeup, good, bad and in between, it's usually part of the job, and there are great QBs like AR who seem not to have these qualities, and they're fantastic because of their natural talent.
Finally, I don't see the comparisons to Simms and Eli. Eli was a great passer and showed it early on. I don't think you can assume Jones will ascend to greatness because he has been criticized, like Eli.
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My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that.
When in his career to this point has he had the quality of talent around him that would've given him the chance to prove he was capable of being a top 10 QB?
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am not paying him for what he may or may not be. I am paying him for what he has shown to be. That is why the tag is the best option. If he proves to be a top 10 QB, that is great for all of us. But if we lock into a long term contract with him and he flops, we are fucked.
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In comment 16027966 Producer said:
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That's cool. I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't call you names. I don't think we know what BD and JS think. Whether they believe in him or not the statements may look exactly the same. HCs and GMs rarely bash their QB.
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Producer, I agree the contract will tell a story.
On the organization, you kind of get senses of what they think and you piece it together. I see greatness in this kid. I really do. Everyone of the Giants bigtime QBs of the last 40 years went through a 'rite of passage' so to speak before they became great. First Simms and then Eli. Lots amd lots of fans questioning them until they emerged. With DJ he has had just some disgustingly bad components around him. I see him making plays and sometimes special ones in the many fewer opportunies he has been afforded due to usually 2 of the 3 of pass pro, receivers or system being extremely unfavorable or poor.
He has special wiring . He never complains, always fights. DG when they selected him said they were blown away by the way the kid handles adversity. The talent is there too and now that we have a respectable system , it will come out when there are enough adequate or better pieces around him. Hopefully with a good JS offseason, it'll be next year.
Sorry, I must have missed this last night. I really do not see these special qualities, other than he runs well into the open field and once there he is getting better weaving through traffic.
I see a QB hampered by some severe limitations in the passing game. There are a few things he does well. He's gotten much better rolling right and throwing on the run. He does a better job looking downfield amid pressure. He is accurate and shows nice zip on intermediate crossers. These are good things. I have listed other qualities I think are deficits ad nauseum and I'll spare you a list here, but I think they outweigh the good.
I'm not as enthused by this "special wiring", doesn't complain, seems tough stuff. A lot of QBs have this makeup, good, bad and in between, it's usually part of the job, and there are great QBs like AR who seem not to have these qualities, and they're fantastic because of their natural talent.
Finally, I don't see the comparisons to Simms and Eli. Eli was a great passer and showed it early on. I don't think you can assume Jones will ascend to greatness because he has been criticized, like Eli.
Producer its obvious at this point you don't see this the same way that I or many of the other Jones believers do..and that's cool. Let me just say this, I am extremely confident its going to show up where the intangibles become clearly tangible bc he will finally have a landing strip for the plane i.e a support system that allows you to see his talent on full display.
I also believe Daboll is all in on DJ and has fully endorsed bringing him back. The upcoming contract will reflect this too. I think the Minny game will be more the norm when players get open more often and that will happen with better players and better pass pro plain and simple.
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In comment 16028089 NYG07 said:
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My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that.
When in his career to this point has he had the quality of talent around him that would've given him the chance to prove he was capable of being a top 10 QB?
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am not paying him for what he may or may not be. I am paying him for what he has shown to be. That is why the tag is the best option. If he proves to be a top 10 QB, that is great for all of us. But if we lock into a long term contract with him and he flops, we are fucked.
There is a level of projection and reading in between the lines if you will with NFL players. Thats the essence of the draft and even FA to a point too. Teams will and have paid based on looking at a guy and saying his skill set will produce X in the right system. Daboll had a full yuear to evaluate this
Phil Simms and Eli Manning came into the NFL with accolades and accomplishments. Everyone recognized their talent and potential because they excelled at their level. It was easier to say 'Eli will be fine' because we've seen him be excellent.
Jones was an unknown when he was drafted with no track record of success. No one here has any idea if Jones' peak is this or if he has some other level to reach. We would all be projecting and guessing.
There is no risk free way of locking up DJ. You cannot throw completions, TD or otherwise to non-existent talent. You cannot have a deep downfield game when your RT has already lost, just 1 second into the play and your RG insists on introducing you to his bestie DT upclose and personal.
Meanwhile, there is no risk free way of letting DJ go. The intelligence, work ethic, and basic level of physical ability make it more than just a slim possibility that this guy becomes an unquestionable top QB. Hard for a GM survive letting him go unless an almost equal good replacement can be secured in a minimal timeframe. In short, GM does not have the luxury of an extended development and rebuild.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning came into the NFL with accolades and accomplishments. Everyone recognized their talent and potential because they excelled at their level. It was easier to say 'Eli will be fine' because we've seen him be excellent.
Jones was an unknown when he was drafted with no track record of success. No one here has any idea if Jones' peak is this or if he has some other level to reach. We would all be projecting and guessing.
Are you serious that Simms came into the NFL with accolades, accomplishments, and excelled at his level?
Yes, Bill Walsh liked him but in the third round. Even Simms had quotes of being an unknown. Obviously it was a much different era but Simms’ senior year and career numbers do not spell out accomplishments and excelling at his level.
Have you seen the video of him getting drafted? Not too different than the reaction to Jones’ selection.
I love Simms as much as I love Eli and I’m lukewarm on Jones. But at least be accurate when describing Simms coming into the NFL. Much different than Eli and probably much closer to that of Jones.
Jones was a productive offensive weapon in 2022 with no real elite talent at WR or TE. His OL was average, if we're being kind. HE had the big time RB. The Giants offense finished right around average. Jones and Barkley (and coaching of course) were the biggest reasons why the offense wasn't bad.
I don't care about 30 TDs. I care about pts scored. If Jones throws 30 TDs next season but the offense fails to close games out like it did in 2022, we won't care. We will want better play from the QB.
Pts scored. 30 tds can correlate to pts scored and in many cases will, but it's not everything. Jones didn't even craxk 20 passing TDs yet the offense scored an average number of pts.
Running games matter. Build around Barkley and DJ's legs. Add to the OL. Add pass catching talent. Jones is part of the solution, evidenced by 2022.
Jones And Barkley impact how defenses play against the Giants offense. They geared up to stop the ground game yet those two still shredded teams on many occasions. BUILD on that. You add a talented young WR to the mix and a better interior OL, Jones will feast. Barkley will feast.
Jones was a productive offensive weapon in 2022 with no real elite talent at WR or TE. His OL was average, if we're being kind. HE had the big time RB. The Giants offense finished right around average. Jones and Barkley (and coaching of course) were the biggest reasons why the offense wasn't bad.
I don't care about 30 TDs. I care about pts scored. If Jones throws 30 TDs next season but the offense fails to close games out like it did in 2022, we won't care. We will want better play from the QB.
Pts scored. 30 tds can correlate to pts scored and in many cases will, but it's not everything. Jones didn't even craxk 20 passing TDs yet the offense scored an average number of pts.
Running games matter. Build around Barkley and DJ's legs. Add to the OL. Add pass catching talent. Jones is part of the solution, evidenced by 2022.
Winning close games is random. Production is more important to me than close wins or comeback wins because it's consistent from year to year. It's like in baseball, do you wany game winning hits or do you want OPS?
Close wins are a noisy metric.
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Then why did you say it?
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So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Then why did you say it?
Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
I'm dealing with the hypothetical you presented. The pro-DJ argument is that, given what he accomplished with limited talent surrounding him, he'll do even better with better talent around him.
You say, "There's no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him."
To which I ask, "When has he ever had that better talent around him?"
Leading you to accuse me of asking you to defend an argument you never made, which I literally quoted you making.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
Your measurement is exactly what I stated above - an aggregate. That’s flawed/not what matters. Why would I care about the league aggregate when all that matters to me is how the Giants perform in close games? When it’s crunch time is our offense closing out games or not? And why are or aren’t they? I don’t need science or a math formula for that.
The data comes into play when working on how to optimize personnel, play alls, etc but I certainly wouldn’t classify any of it as random. Random is the weather, or a bad call, or a bad bounce, or a headset malfunction.
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In comment 16028753 UConn4523 said:
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
Your measurement is exactly what I stated above - an aggregate. That’s flawed/not what matters. Why would I care about the league aggregate when all that matters to me is how the Giants perform in close games? When it’s crunch time is our offense closing out games or not? And why are or aren’t they? I don’t need science or a math formula for that.
The data comes into play when working on how to optimize personnel, play alls, etc but I certainly wouldn’t classify any of it as random. Random is the weather, or a bad call, or a bad bounce, or a headset malfunction.
Every analysis I'm aware of pertains to team deviations. It is a truism that good teams win close games. Bill James showed that was false. Good teams win lopsided contests. And teams that won a high percentage of close games were mainly lucky, even though the fan and media narrative was that those teams were "clutch".
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In comment 16028014 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 16027981 GMen72 said:
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In comment 16027813 Sean said:
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Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
There’s a decent likelihood Jones is a better QB than Cousins. It wasn’t 1 game, although that 1 game was huge when analyzing the two players. But Jones was the better player in 2022. You can keep posting stats if it makes you feel better, and I’ll just post their QBRs and WR/TE corps.
A playoff win is nice, but neither game against the Vikes was huge statistically when you consider how bad their defense was. DJ had three 300 yard passing games this year...all three came against the 31st and 32nd ranked passing defenses. Weird how your WR/TEs were good enough in those games, isn't it?
Cousins had almost 4600 total yards and 31 TDs, DJ had 3900 and 22 TDs...but DJ was better last year? Do you even believe the stuff you say?
DJ wasn't better last year and will most likely never put up numbers comparative to Cousins.
How do DJ and Cousins numbers look if they switched places? Drastically different I promise you that. Cousins does a whole lot less than DJ did if he was stuck with our offensive players. DJ probably does equal or better than Cousins did.
You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
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In comment 16028970 GMen72 said:
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
Ha, you are another one that talks crap and acts like it is fact and everyone else is wrong.
BTW, guessing and surmising is the purpose of these threads. It is people talking shit about shit. Yes, that is what this is.
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
Of course, but like I said I don’t think it’s random. What were the scenarios? Who had the ball last? How many bad calls? I’d know the answer to those questions if I watched all 17 of their games.
Many NFL games come down to the 4th QTR especially division games. It where everything is magnified and QB is one piece of many different things to consider.
It’s pretty clear we are talking about two different things. I agree that the large sample size of data suggests close games are “random” but that’s at the aggregate. Do you think Schoen and Daboll think their close games are random? I sure as hell don’t and that’s what I’m talking about.
Every year the playoff turnover is what 40%? I believe that’s what it was before the addition of an extra game. Season to season it seems random but when you independently analyze each team it becomes quite clear why the teams ended up where they did.
Many NFL games come down to the 4th QTR especially division games. It where everything is magnified and QB is one piece of many different things to consider.
Correct. You zoom out and ignore the why and just look at results, sure, it’s random. But what good is that and why should anyone care about that? If you arent one of the 4/5 teams that’s out scoring your opponent la by a big margin you are living in the realm of close 4th quarter games and that’s where QBs, coaches, etc their mark. The Jets aren’t unlucky to lose their close games, their QB stinks.
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In comment 16028985 section125 said:
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In comment 16028970 GMen72 said:
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
Ha, you are another one that talks crap and acts like it is fact and everyone else is wrong.
BTW, guessing and surmising is the purpose of these threads. It is people talking shit about shit. Yes, that is what this is.
I use actual stats (DJ doesn't throw TDs, Minnesota sucks on defense) to back up my points...you use premises and feelings to back up yours.
"DJ will be better with better weapons." Ok...how much better? Is he Carr? Is he Dak? Is he Burrow? What if he isn't better. Remember the rallying cry for Darnold? He went to Carolina, got weapons he didn't have with the Jets...and still sucked. Carr got Adams...was he better?
Bottom line... you're guessing and hoping. I can use actual stats to prove DJ isn't that good now, is in a dink and dunk offense, doesn't throw the ball downfield, and will have to completely change who he is (a checkdown first QB) to be successful with more weapons.
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Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
I'm dealing with the hypothetical you presented. The pro-DJ argument is that, given what he accomplished with limited talent surrounding him, he'll do even better with better talent around him.
You say, "There's no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him."
To which I ask, "When has he ever had that better talent around him?"
Leading you to accuse me of asking you to defend an argument you never made, which I literally quoted you making.
No. My claim wasn't that there is no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him. My claim was that DJ has never produced like a top 10 quarterback in his 4 years in the NFL. I understand the circumstances he has had. Just point blank that he hasn't done it.
I am fully aware of the pro-DJ argument that he'll do even better with better talent around him. But this has not happened, so you are just projecting what you think is going to happen.
If the Giants trade for Tee Higgins, draft a receiver and beef up the interior line, is DJ going to throw for 4,500 yards and 35 touchdowns next year? If so, yes, I am all for the 5 year deal. But none of us know, so paying him a massive contract is very risky. UCONN, I am aware that not every QB with a top 10 contract is worth it. I don't want DJ added to that list.
That is all I am saying. I don't hate Jones. I am not saying it is impossible he does take a huge jump. I hope he does. But I haven't seen anything personally to indicate that will happen. Which is why I want them to tag him, put better pieces around him, and let him show us. They can make moves with the cap to fit the tag with extending Leo and Adoree, cutting Golladay, etc.
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
I believe the Raiders were 7-2 in one score games in 2021.
This year, that got flipped to 4-9. And four of those games made it to OT.
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
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In comment 16029118 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
Agree on Philly but I could have used another team as well. As you know, the eye test argument probably can be used by both camps still.
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In comment 16029334 chick310 said:
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In comment 16029118 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
Agree on Philly but I could have used another team as well. As you know, the eye test argument probably can be used by both camps still.
Ok..In my camp, at worst, DJ is middle of the pack. At best, near top 10..I see him improving further next season. I’m as sure of that as I was before the season started when they first hired Daboll..:)
No worries. He will..😎
The difference in Tua
The difference in Lawrence
From one year to the next when they got a #1 WR or at least a substantial upgrade to their receiving core. The rise in their level of play was substancial. It's more than coincidence.
If Jones could do what he did with very little which was basically maximize what he was given Jones ceiling will be tremendous when he is given much more.
Personally I'm not capping him at top 10 but top 5 is certainly not out of the question if he has anything comparable to what most of the top QBs have right now.
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Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
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In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
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Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
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In comment 16029347 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
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Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
Then maybe I should pro-rate this a bit higher:
4,425 yards with 34 TDs
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In comment 16029353 chick310 said:
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In comment 16029347 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
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Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
Then maybe I should pro-rate this a bit higher:
4,425 yards with 34 TDs
Yeah that works. That is what he should be producing if we are paying him only $7.5M less than Patrick Mahomes per year.
Tall order. Regardless of what receivers we put around him.