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| Part of an NFL Offseason Predictions Article in the Athletic with 5 Prections: 4. Prediction: The Giants will not overcommit to Daniel Jones or Saquon Barkley, giving themselves flexibility to draft a quarterback in 2024. I’m banking on the Giants signing both players for less than the franchise-tag values at their positions. Under this scenario, the team would use the franchise or transition tag to help leverage a workable multi-year deal with Barkley before free agency. At quarterback, the Giants would offer Jones a shorter-term deal at less than the $32 million annual average associated with the franchise tag. The team would be betting on Daboll’s ability to get more from a cheaper free-agent quarterback (or a rookie) if Jones thought he could find a better situation elsewhere. The hope would be that Jones might value Daboll’s role in his development sufficiently to accept such a deal. It all sounds so easy, but the Giants face a balancing act as they seek to reward Jones and Barkley for strong seasons while maintaining long-term flexibility. “For a team that is just getting out of cap trouble, they would be wise to slow-play it, but it is really hard to slow-play two guys,” another exec said. “When you are setting up a program, you want to send the right message to your players, to your coaches. The message is almost as important as the dollars.” - more linked below - Prediction 4 continues comparing the Giants situation with Barkley to the Rams Situation with RB Todd Gurley in 2017 |
With the $32.4 million franchise tag likely serving as the floor for the annual average salary in a long-term contract, the Giants will probably aim for a longer deal so they can spread out the cap charges to allow for more flexibility to build the roster. Based on similar recent quarterback contracts, the Giants likely will need to guarantee money into the third year of a Jones extension. Teams have shown an increasing willingness to eat significant dead money to unload quarterbacks recently, but be prepared for a strong long-term commitment to Jones, assuming the sides work out an agreement.[/q]
Maybe Barkley won’t be here for too long, but I see Jones getting 4-5 years at this point.
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
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In comment 16026139 gidiefor said:
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
Natties at Bama and rings with NE don’t count. If they did, then Joe Judge would be considered an esteemed coach. Who did he “coach up” in his various stints as an OC before he got to work with elite talent?
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In comment 16026144 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026139 gidiefor said:
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
Natties at Bama and rings with NE don’t count. If they did, then Joe Judge would be considered an esteemed coach. Who did he “coach up” in his various stints as an OC before he got to work with elite talent?
Those championships at Alabama and New England “don’t count”? Haha, classic.
Mara is not going to be pulling strings after the success this combo of Schoen and Daboll had last season. Pretty certain Schoen would be able to articulate the reasons they would need to move on, if necessary. Schoen has plenty of examples of why overpaying a QB is bad, i.e., Prescott and Murray....
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In comment 16026148 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16026144 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026139 gidiefor said:
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
Natties at Bama and rings with NE don’t count. If they did, then Joe Judge would be considered an esteemed coach. Who did he “coach up” in his various stints as an OC before he got to work with elite talent?
Those championships at Alabama and New England “don’t count”? Haha, classic.
Can you name any of our tight ends coaches for any of our Super Bowl wins?
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
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In comment 16026151 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026148 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16026144 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026139 gidiefor said:
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
Natties at Bama and rings with NE don’t count. If they did, then Joe Judge would be considered an esteemed coach. Who did he “coach up” in his various stints as an OC before he got to work with elite talent?
Those championships at Alabama and New England “don’t count”? Haha, classic.
Can you name any of our tight ends coaches for any of our Super Bowl wins?
Dabolls teams have been very successful every place he’s been. You’re the one that made the stupid ass comments so the onus isn’t on me to prove shit. The onus is on YOU to tell us all why he was such a complete failure. What is your evidence of this? Provide examples. I’ll be waiting. Although every single person on this site is well aware that you are a troll. I’ll give you a chance to prove to us all why Daboll is a failure. For entertainment sake…
That said, Daboll had an unimpressive string of stops as an OC before Buffalo, and doesn't have a track record to support getting more from less.
Jones is his real first reclamation project.
That leaves no tag for Barkley so he moves on as a free agent unless he wants to agree to something less than $10M.
$10M should be a more than enough to put a quality RB Unit together if you draft a rookie halfback in middle rounds AND add another IOL in free agency.
All I can say is I hope this is true.
Try to get Team Jones to sign a shorter term deal, one the team can exit in two years.
Thanks for sharing, gidie.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash. Apparently you haven’t been paying attention. I like to pop off? Yes I do, when clowns deserve it.
You agreeing with that guy tells me all I need to know about you. Daboll was a failure. You fucking idiot. It’s always great when an ACTUAL failure at life gets to sit behind their little keyboard and call someone that has reached the pinnacle of their chosen profession a “failure”. Don’t you wish you failed like he did?
2010 Browns 5-11 Record. 31st in PPG.
2011 Dolphins 6-10 Record. 20th in PPG.
2012 Chiefs 2-14 Record. Dead last in PPG.
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Mara starts pulling strings again
Mara is not going to be pulling strings after the success this combo of Schoen and Daboll had last season. Pretty certain Schoen would be able to articulate the reasons they would need to move on, if necessary. Schoen has plenty of examples of why overpaying a QB is bad, i.e., Prescott and Murray....
I pray you are correct
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
2010 Browns 5-11 Record. 31st in PPG.
2011 Dolphins 6-10 Record. 20th in PPG.
2012 Chiefs 2-14 Record. Dead last in PPG.
Brady Quinn
Colt McCoy
Matt Moore
Matt Cassell
Cool analysis.
2010 Browns 5-11 Record. 31st in PPG.
2011 Dolphins 6-10 Record. 20th in PPG.
2012 Chiefs 2-14 Record. Dead last in PPG.
You have been openly rooting for Team Jones to take the Giants to the cleaners as revenge for passing on his 5th year option. Why? Why would any Giants fan cheer for that? We should want our team to get as much talent as they can for as little money as possible.
I would say you are probably from Jones' agency but your writing doesn't... errr... indicate that's a job you would have. So what's the deal? You're basically rooting for Team Jones against the Giants.
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2009 Browns 5-11 Record. 29th in PPG.
2010 Browns 5-11 Record. 31st in PPG.
2011 Dolphins 6-10 Record. 20th in PPG.
2012 Chiefs 2-14 Record. Dead last in PPG.
You have been openly rooting for Team Jones to take the Giants to the cleaners as revenge for passing on his 5th year option. Why? Why would any Giants fan cheer for that? We should want our team to get as much talent as they can for as little money as possible.
I would say you are probably from Jones' agency but your writing doesn't... errr... indicate that's a job you would have. So what's the deal? You're basically rooting for Team Jones against the Giants.
Jones will take us to the cleaners, only because Schoen put him in a position to do so.
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In comment 16026157 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between what Kafka did for Jones and what Daboll has done. They all work for Daboll, and it's not like BD is a special teams coach. How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Plus, Daniel Jones was a less than ordinary QB until Daboll took over.
I agree with he premise of this article:
Daniel Jones needs Brian Daboll and the Giants a lot more than they need him.
Points scored is a important metric when serving as OC. This does not mean talent was not a big part of it either way. The name of the game is maximizing talent. BD did not show to be a miracle worker. He needs talent just like every coach. Jones and the team deserve a lot of credit for this year and BD has pointed this out many times.
I agree with the poster that Mara will let JS/BD make the decisions.
For me it's simple. If you move on from Jones you better replace him with at minimum a equal talent.
We do have a new POV with Daboll sucking and not in anyway involved in the improvement of the team.
Let the games begin!
giantBCP : 1/22/2023 7:27 pm : link
In comment 16008991 Sean said:
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Connor Hughes
@Connor_J_Hughes
#Giants QB Daniel Jones smiles when asked if he’s aware how much the top QBs in the NFL make. Acknowledges he does
Savage. I hope he puts his dick firmly in Schoen’s ass.
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RE: I’ll just leave this here:
giantBCP : 1/22/2023 7:27 pm : link
In comment 16008991 Sean said:
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Connor Hughes
@Connor_J_Hughes
#Giants QB Daniel Jones smiles when asked if he’s aware how much the top QBs in the NFL make. Acknowledges he does
Savage. I hope he puts his dick firmly in Schoen’s ass.
Schoen invited the dick into his own ass. Daniel and his agent will kindly oblige.
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In comment 16026157 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
A great OC or DC does not always make a great HC and a guy who may be just an ordinary coordinator can also turn out to be an excellent HC.
Daboll at minumum was head and shoulders above any HC we've had since TC.
Of course having good coordinators helps but I wouldn't say Daboll was some figure-head Head Coach either.
Quote: Unless Mara starts pulling strings again/////
Mara is not going to be pulling strings after the success this combo of Schoen and Daboll had last season. Pretty certain Schoen would be able to articulate the reasons they would need to move on, if necessary. Schoen has plenty of examples of why overpaying a QB is bad, i.e., Prescott and Murray....
Clams, not piling on here but I had the same take as section, coupled with this additional thought: Mara expressed regret that the Giants had royally effed up the chances for DJ to be successful in the NFL. Given the apparent set-up for Jones to be paid a lot of money even if it's not the Giants who pay up the most would, my speculative opinion, go a long way to easing Mara's 'conscience' about DJ and go with Schoen's preferred path.
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In comment 16026165 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16026157 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between what Kafka did for Jones and what Daboll has done. They all work for Daboll, and it's not like BD is a special teams coach. How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Plus, Daniel Jones was a less than ordinary QB until Daboll took over.
I agree with he premise of this article:
Daniel Jones needs Brian Daboll and the Giants a lot more than they need him.
You lost me when you said he was “less than ordinary”. He was a good qb playing with shit. He still was playing with shit but had at least one weapon in SB. Give the kid the weapons that all the QBs you praise and you will see what he can do. It’s the same old thing with you.
from good coaching ?
You were the one who argued that poor coaching had nothing to do with Jones poor play prior to 2022.
I guess that you are coming around to acknowledge that coaching and talent around Jones will elevate his play and that we may be only scratching the surface of his potential.
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In comment 16026147 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote: Unless Mara starts pulling strings again/////
Mara is not going to be pulling strings after the success this combo of Schoen and Daboll had last season. Pretty certain Schoen would be able to articulate the reasons they would need to move on, if necessary. Schoen has plenty of examples of why overpaying a QB is bad, i.e., Prescott and Murray....
Clams, not piling on here but I had the same take as section, coupled with this additional thought: Mara expressed regret that the Giants had royally effed up the chances for DJ to be successful in the NFL. Given the apparent set-up for Jones to be paid a lot of money even if it's not the Giants who pay up the most would, my speculative opinion, go a long way to easing Mara's 'conscience' about DJ and go with Schoen's preferred path.
Over the years, Giants rarely let someone go who they consider a very important piece or a building block. Character matters to them highly too. The way the organization talks about DJ....I would be floored if they eventually didn't come to agreement.
There is every motivation for Schoen to sign Jones to a back-loaded contract. If it works, Schoen's golden. If it doesn't, he will still get a lot of leeway from Mara.
Worst case, Schoen walks away from the rubble to his next gig. That's the way the incentives are set up for all GMs in this situation, and why only two QBs in 30 years have actually played on the franchise tag.
"The foundation has been set", Schoen said. "Brace yourself", Duggan says. Believe both.
Your posting style and obsession with Schoen is bizarrely similar to banned poster Giants73. Including your weird need to mention weeners.
Hmmmmm.
christian : 11/2/2022 9:25 pm : link
In comment 15895719 Giants73 said:
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Continue to meat ride
You post about weeners a lot.
Moves like this really convinced me that Daboll is highly capable and knows what he’s doing.
from good coaching ?
You were the one who argued that poor coaching had nothing to do with Jones poor play prior to 2022.
I guess that you are coming around to acknowledge that coaching and talent around Jones will elevate his play and that we may be only scratching the surface of his potential.
I never said coaching and surrounding talent have nothing to do with how productive a QB is. I'm happy to defend my positions, but I can't and won't defend positions you make up out of whole cloth.
What I have said is that QBs can be assessed in isolation from their context, and that Jones' isolated traits aren't elite. I also said that he would have better production with better coaching/weapons but he would remain essentially the same QB with the same deficits. Finally, I have said, don't expect an enormous bump in production when surroundings get better, and so far, I'm right, hello 15 TD passes in 16 games. And if we add better wide outs, I say, Jones will not throw 35 TDs.
A successful team gets its staff raided. Identifying good assistant coach prospects is as invaluable as identifying player talent.
wrong.
Ohh and while you are at it, who hired the coordinators? Thanks in advance.
You lost me when you said he was “less than ordinary”. He was a good qb playing with shit. He still was playing with shit but had at least one weapon in SB. Give the kid the weapons that all the QBs you praise and you will see what he can do. It’s the same old thing with you.
It's ok. We can disagree. I don't think Jones was very good prior to 2022, and I'm not alone on an island with that thought. Things got a bit better for him this season and we saw marginal improvement in his passing. 15 TDs is poor and the offense was schemed to avoid a wide open passing attack. He got a bit better but he's still the same guy. I don't think we can win much with him. It's a competitive league.
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In comment 16026172 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026165 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16026157 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between what Kafka did for Jones and what Daboll has done. They all work for Daboll, and it's not like BD is a special teams coach. How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Plus, Daniel Jones was a less than ordinary QB until Daboll took over.
I agree with he premise of this article:
Daniel Jones needs Brian Daboll and the Giants a lot more than they need him.
You lost me when you said he was “less than ordinary”. He was a good qb playing with shit. He still was playing with shit but had at least one weapon in SB. Give the kid the weapons that all the QBs you praise and you will see what he can do. It’s the same old thing with you.
Some simply have trouble reading in between the lines or 'seeing' the intangibles.
You can’t over pay “great”, but you can overpay “good”.
3 yrs, $78,818,028
Avg. Salary: $26,272,676
NFL Rank: 22
QB Rank: 15
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Here is Spottrac calculated market value on Daniel Jones.
3 yrs, $78,818,028
Avg. Salary: $26,272,676
NFL Rank: 22
QB Rank: 15
I don’t see how that’s possible. The floor per year has to be the average of tagging twice, IMO. That puts it at $35m give or take.
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Here is Spottrac calculated market value on Daniel Jones.
3 yrs, $78,818,028
Avg. Salary: $26,272,676
NFL Rank: 22
QB Rank: 15
Based on??? Seems light and I doubt his agents even acknowledge that as an offer.
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Here is Spottrac calculated market value on Daniel Jones.
3 yrs, $78,818,028
Avg. Salary: $26,272,676
NFL Rank: 22
QB Rank: 15
I don’t see how that’s possible. The floor per year has to be the average of tagging twice, IMO. That puts it at $35m give or take.
These guys are more off than BBIers..
Very complex situation for Schoen.
I love Dan, and have spent time with him. I can/will confirm that he is a very detailed and logical observer. But even so, he's been wrong/off base before.
Whether it's spot on or not, there's some very interesting and logical analysis in the linked article.
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Schoen invited the dick into his own ass. Daniel and his agent will kindly oblige.
Your posting style and obsession with Schoen is bizarrely similar to banned poster Giants73. Including your weird need to mention weeners.
Hmmmmm.
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...
christian : 11/2/2022 9:25 pm : link
In comment 15895719 Giants73 said:
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Continue to meat ride
You post about weeners a lot.
Dammit Christian! I had full intention of NOT spewing my coffee on my laptop this morning! ARRRGH!
He’s probably at 5 years $185m with who knows how much guaranteed while the Giants are at 2/3 years. This is a very difficult scenario especially since they lose leverage if they rage Barkley.
Meaning they take Jones's stats (presumably wins as well), compare that to other QBs, and how much they make today. And where he would slot.
They are not making a market value guess.
Very complex situation for Schoen.
Most QBs feast on weaker opponents and they’re making far more than some project he’ll make
In comment 16026168 giantBCP said:
Jones will take us to the cleaners, only because Schoen put him in a position to do so.
giantBCP, you know the 5th yr option would've been for one year ('23), right? And as big a Jones fan as you seem to be, you probably think that with a 2nd yr in this system, with better pass pro and better WRs/weapons, he's going to have an even better season next year than he did in '22, right? It's reasonable to think that, imo.
Wouldn't it be better to sign Jones to a longer term contract now, vs. this time next year (after a better season, with more pass TDs, yards, wins, etc.)? Jones leverage to "take us to the cleaners" will very possibly be much stronger next year.
So, we'll be paying him more in '23 under a new contract than the 5th yr option, but in the long run, it's going to cost us less (possibly tens of millions, 35Mx4 vs. 45M x6, as example).
Lastly, do you really not understand that given Jones neck injury and inconsistent performance (even if a lot wasn't his fault), Daboll and Schoen wanted to see Jones up close before committing long term to him?
Do you buy cars and homes without seeing them up close? I know some people do, but it's not necessarily the smartest thing to do.
Wow, he failed in Cleveland, when has that ever happened? And while his stint in Miami wasn’t great, he took a 30th ranked offense to 20th, that has to count for something.
And anyone not giving him credit for developing Allen, who is a phenomenal talent that needed A TON of coaching up, has an agenda.
This guy(s) is penis obsessed. I just call 'em like I see 'em.
Wow, he failed in Cleveland, when has that ever happened? And while his stint in Miami wasn’t great, he took a 30th ranked offense to 20th, that has to count for something.
And anyone not giving him credit for developing Allen, who is a phenomenal talent that needed A TON of coaching up, has an agenda.
I posted the QBs he was working with prior to his time with the Bills and it’s about as ugly as it gets. Failure after failure.
Meaning they take Jones's stats (presumably wins as well), compare that to other QBs, and how much they make today. And where he would slot.
They are not making a market value guess.
Thanks. If it were only that easy. That would be a steal for the Giants. But his agents will be looking out for his future.
I still have concerns about him. But I would really like to see what Daboll and Tierney can do with him. I think there is more there Jones will improve.
Very complex situation for Schoen.
It's a team game. Teams win championships. It is much more important that JS's take from the stronger opponents they faced is that they still have a lot of work to be done on the fronts. When the compete better here and win better results will follow imv. IF Jones is QB he will benefit as will any other QB.
I can see spillover guaranteed money/dead cap hit in Year 3 for sure, but that's spilled milk as far as I'm concerned if the deal gets reworked/rewarded for Jones playing well 2 years, or Giants decide to boldly draft a QB if they get close to their shot in next couple drafts.
It's like when posters say "I have heard that", which implies they have an inside source, when what it actually means 99.99 percent of the time is they simply read or watched something online.
How about: Athletic columnist: "Giants won't overcommit to ...".
As far as this guy's opinion. As someone who used to do that job, consider this: the guy probably doesn't even regularly cover games in person anymore. He most likely watches most of them at home, reads what others write, and then writes his opinions. I've written columns about the NFL, when I actually covered a team in person. But it was MY opinion. Nothing more.
Also, the quote shared in the original post seems to refute what the columnist presents as fact:
“For a team that is just getting out of cap trouble, they would be wise to slow-play it, but it is really hard to slow-play two guys,” another exec said. “When you are setting up a program, you want to send the right message to your players, to your coaches. The message is almost as important as the dollars.”
Very complex situation for Schoen.
I wonder if the times they are a changing. A fancy passing game is very expensive- you have to pay the qb, the LT, the receivers. The MV plan. A running game depends on relatively low cost talent- a rb, some run blocking linemen, and you can get away with a cheap qb. Sort of the 49rs plan. It's a copy cat league- what is the template?
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Late in the season against some weak defenses. Then he looked awful against a top shelf unit. Are there extenuating circumstances or is this the dreaded “contract year drive”?
Very complex situation for Schoen.
Very. And comparing the production over the last 3 years, what's the likelihood of further production.
I wonder if the times they are a changing. A fancy passing game is very expensive- you have to pay the qb, the LT, the receivers. The MV plan. A running game depends on relatively low cost talent- a rb, some run blocking linemen, and you can get away with a cheap qb. Sort of the 49rs plan. It's a copy cat league- what is the template?
HJ, I have said basically the same thing. Get a mobile QB with a decent arm and better legs. "Abuse" him for 4 years and draft another. THe only defense owners have is to not end up paying 1 player 20% of the cap space. The extra saved money goes to better skill players.
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In comment 16026180 Producer said:
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In comment 16026172 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026165 BigBlueShock said:
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In comment 16026157 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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BD had six offenses as OC scoring less than 20 pts. After falling short with three franchises as OC BB took him back as a TE's coach. He then spent a year as co-offensive coordinator for one year in Bama before heading to Buffalo. His last two years in Buffalo they scored well over 25 pts after the first were two again below 20. His first stint with NE he was a defensive assistant and WR coach.
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
This GiantsBCP is a troll. He’s been doing this crap for months now. Both Schoen and Daboll are trash.
I’m not a troll, but I do attribute our success to DJ, Wink, and Kafka, more so than Daboll and Schoen.
I'm not sure how you can make the distinction between what Kafka did for Jones and what Daboll has done. They all work for Daboll, and it's not like BD is a special teams coach. How could you possibly come to that conclusion? Plus, Daniel Jones was a less than ordinary QB until Daboll took over.
I agree with he premise of this article:
Daniel Jones needs Brian Daboll and the Giants a lot more than they need him.
You lost me when you said he was “less than ordinary”. He was a good qb playing with shit. He still was playing with shit but had at least one weapon in SB. Give the kid the weapons that all the QBs you praise and you will see what he can do. It’s the same old thing with you.
Some simply have trouble reading in between the lines or 'seeing' the intangibles.
Or seeing the obvious like this is daboll’s offense sure he has input from Kafka and others but no mistake about it it’s his offense and the fact that he has done this before with qb’s. Josh Allen wasn’t josh Allen untill daboll got there and to be honest he’s regressed a bit since he left. So obviously he has nothing to do with it
You will need a very good QB still as in big games and the playoffs at some point he will have to win with the pass game imv.
This is why I think it best to try to sign Jones with some type of deal you can get out of after a couple years. You continue strengthening the team and see where it goes and reevaluate then.
I don't see options is this draft with where they are drafting.
Using the cap on Jones should not be an option because it sends a bad message to the team and to future players. Letting him become a free agent is not an option unless Jones is willing and the Giants are prepared to outbid 2 or 3 other teams. Losing Jones means Tyrod Taylor will be your bridge QB or you will spend $20+ mill on a 2-year deal for a lesser QB or a rookie. And Tyrod Taylor won’t last half a season.
And although, at the time, many felt that not giving the 5th year option was a mistake, in retrospect, everyone, Jones included, benefitted from that decision.
Very complex situation for Schoen.
I second this and a very reasonable way to interpret the situation. I am not sure we would be talking about Jones in the same manner pre Colts and Vikings. However, he won a playoff game on the road, which is a big deal.
The article correctly makes the point that the Giants will not (should not?) over commit to either Jones or Barkley. I think any reasonable fan would agree that you cannot over commit to Jones unless you are certain he transcends a mediocre roster, given that he would tie up a significant amount of cap space.
I've sometimes toyed with the idea that trying to recreate a '70s Dolphins-type offense could represent a undervalued market opportunity, since almost everyone wants to primarily pass these days. Put together a stable of backs with differing skill sets - a power back, a back who is a dangerous receiver, a speed demon - with a mobile QB and a line of pure mauling drive blockers. That kind of offense paired with a great defense. Players like these aren't as highly valued and such a roster could likely be assembled at relatively low cost.
I think a team could win a lot of games that way. However, I'm not sure a team could win a title that way.
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with goood talent “don’t count”, but his stints with shitty talent do. Talk about grading on a curve.
Wow, he failed in Cleveland, when has that ever happened? And while his stint in Miami wasn’t great, he took a 30th ranked offense to 20th, that has to count for something.
And anyone not giving him credit for developing Allen, who is a phenomenal talent that needed A TON of coaching up, has an agenda.
I posted the QBs he was working with prior to his time with the Bills and it’s about as ugly as it gets. Failure after failure.
Did one of those Qbs turn it around with another coach? Some Qbs are just not good Qbs no matter who coaches them up.
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2009 Browns 5-11 Record. 29th in PPG.
2010 Browns 5-11 Record. 31st in PPG.
2011 Dolphins 6-10 Record. 20th in PPG.
2012 Chiefs 2-14 Record. Dead last in PPG.
Brady Quinn
Colt McCoy
Matt Moore
Matt Cassell
Cool analysis.
Kind of shoots down the notion that Daboll can turn anybody into a winning QB doesn't it? His 'reclamation projects' consist of Allen and Jones. Two top 10 picks.
And that above average QBs shouldn't automatically go to the near/top of the market simply because they're available.
Thirteen QBs are on 30M+ AAV contracts, and I'd argue all things equal 1/3 to 1/2 of those teams would take it back if they could.
I have no doubt the Giants would regret paying Jones Kyler Murray money more, than the fallout if he walks.
Citing PPG for gutter franchises like the Browns who took a poor prospect in Brady Quinn in the first round is a really uninformed way of trying to call Daboll a failure.
Yep - At some point Jones will not be able to be the gazelle-like runner (risk doubly is the more you run, the risk you take a hit that knocks you out for couple games or longer). I think he's an incredible physical talent quite honestly (and I see where Gettleman probably fell in love with him, watching him prep, play, talk).
I have questions about his abilities to toy the secondary a bit. He executed this year on an offense that was carefully tailored but had very little margin for error and I give him credit for doing it, but I think folks are getting way too overindulgent in expectations. The one positive that I felt he really made this year, was in making better calls and audibling at the line.
I think Daboll's tutelage helped but I am not sold he will be a guy that evolves/sustains as he approaches age 29-30 seasons and beyond.
Yup, proper context is important. None of those guys really were potential good QBs that just needed 'better coaching'.
Thirteen QBs are on 30M+ AAV contracts, and I'd argue all things equal 1/3 to 1/2 of those teams would take it back if they could.
I have no doubt the Giants would regret paying Jones Kyler Murray money more, than the fallout if he walks.
I totally agree on both of these. Does not mean I am against players getting what they can. I just think QBs(and some other position groups) are overpaid vs worth to the team.
One can argue Mahomes, soon Burrow, perhaps Allen are worth it...
I am not paying Lamar those numbers. And I certainly am not paying Jones those numbers.
IMV, 3/$35 mill $75 mill gtd is a good place to be...
There are far more good QBs with decent legs than just those 4 guys.
You aren't assessing it accurately because the guys you have left off the list let their passing accumen drive their games/winning and don't just default to trying to do it with their legs.
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is what the entire league is trying to find. There really aren’t many that fit the bill - Lamar, Hurts, Jones, Murray? That’s it over the last 4 years or so. Don’t see how this is a viable strategy when these types of players are already coveted and will be drafted early.
There are far more good QBs with decent legs than just those 4 guys.
You aren't assessing it accurately because the guys you have left off the list let their passing accumen drive their games/winning and don't just default to trying to do it with their legs.
So then who else over the last 4 years?
And my response was to the above saying that cycling through a top runner with a decent arm every 4 years could workout well. I don’t think it can because that combo is rare and many teams want them.
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is what the entire league is trying to find. There really aren’t many that fit the bill - Lamar, Hurts, Jones, Murray? That’s it over the last 4 years or so. Don’t see how this is a viable strategy when these types of players are already coveted and will be drafted early.
There are far more good QBs with decent legs than just those 4 guys.
You aren't assessing it accurately because the guys you have left off the list let their passing accumen drive their games/winning and don't just default to trying to do it with their legs.
I am actually advocating college QBs that can scoot very well and have a reasonably good arm. I agree with you that there are a decent number of them out there. Watch on Saturday afternoons.
So then who else over the last 4 years?
And my response was to the above saying that cycling through a top runner with a decent arm every 4 years could workout well. I don’t think it can because that combo is rare and many teams want them.
I am talking about an entirely new concept. You are thinking what NFL QBs fit this as of now. I am literally saying get a guy that can play college football on an NFL team. Doesn't need an elite arm - just adequate. But needs great RPO ability. A poor man's Lamar Jackson...
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Thirteen QBs are on 30M+ AAV contracts, and I'd argue all things equal 1/3 to 1/2 of those teams would take it back if they could.
I have no doubt the Giants would regret paying Jones Kyler Murray money more, than the fallout if he walks.
I totally agree on both of these. Does not mean I am against players getting what they can. I just think QBs(and some other position groups) are overpaid vs worth to the team.
One can argue Mahomes, soon Burrow, perhaps Allen are worth it...
I am not paying Lamar those numbers. And I certainly am not paying Jones those numbers.
IMV, 3/$35 mill $75 mill gtd is a good place to be...
That's roughly the money I'd like the Giants to commit too.
One thing I won't be surprised to see is a trigger that adds more years and guaranteed money if he hits certain criteria.
Said in another way, if he shows he's a top QB, his contract conveys appropriately.
Very complex situation for Schoen.
Weak defenses that’s the only reason? You guys are trash! How about he had a weak offense around him? When things were equal the kid DOMINATED!!! Get some weapons and he will DOMINATE THE GOOD DEFENSES! something that all the other QBs have that you love and they can’t get it done!
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In comment 16026334 christian said:
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Thirteen QBs are on 30M+ AAV contracts, and I'd argue all things equal 1/3 to 1/2 of those teams would take it back if they could.
I have no doubt the Giants would regret paying Jones Kyler Murray money more, than the fallout if he walks.
I totally agree on both of these. Does not mean I am against players getting what they can. I just think QBs(and some other position groups) are overpaid vs worth to the team.
One can argue Mahomes, soon Burrow, perhaps Allen are worth it...
I am not paying Lamar those numbers. And I certainly am not paying Jones those numbers.
IMV, 3/$35 mill $75 mill gtd is a good place to be...
That's roughly the money I'd like the Giants to commit too.
One thing I won't be surprised to see is a trigger that adds more years and guaranteed money if he hits certain criteria.
Said in another way, if he shows he's a top QB, his contract conveys appropriately.
Bingo - that would be my hope - escalates to 5 yrs/ with additional gtd money so that after year 3 maybe $42/$45 per with 50% GTD.
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Late in the season against some weak defenses. Then he looked awful against a top shelf unit. Are there extenuating circumstances or is this the dreaded “contract year drive”?
Very complex situation for Schoen.
It's a team game. Teams win championships. It is much more important that JS's take from the stronger opponents they faced is that they still have a lot of work to be done on the fronts. When the compete better here and win better results will follow imv. IF Jones is QB he will benefit as will any other QB.
LoS - Not sure how that responds to my point. Don’t disagree with anything you wrote but we are looking at a very small sample size of high level DJ performances. That raise the possibility of an anomaly. But if it is a sustainable leveling up for Jones, then Schoen can’t let him leave. A bridge contract is the way to go. I think there’s broad agreement on BBI on this point, with a few extreme views on either side.
IMO the college QBs with elite running ability that have a “decent arm” are going high in the draft and the ones with poor arms don’t because they suck at throwing. So if that’s what you are describing you are basically asking for a brand new offense to be created and sustained in the NFL.
Yes, this is what I was talking about earlier, a radically different kind of offense than any NFL team currently runs. Even the Ravens, who modified their offense around Lamar's talent, still throw the ball 27 times per game on average in his starts.
It's ok. We can disagree. I don't think Jones was very good prior to 2022, and I'm not alone on an island with that thought. Things got a bit better for him this season and we saw marginal improvement in his passing. 15 TDs is poor and the offense was schemed to avoid a wide open passing attack. He got a bit better but he's still the same guy. I don't think we can win much with him. It's a competitive league.
LOL....."a bit better"......"marginal improvement"...."I don't think they can win much with him"
They avoided a "wide open passing attack" because they were pretty shitty offensive skill position players at WR and TE (when Belly was out for 5 games). They also had the 30th ranked OL...
He had "only" 15 TD because mostly......wait for it....say it with me.....they had pretty shitty offensive position players at WR and TE.
They won 10 games this season, and that was with......say it with me one more time....they had shitty offensive skill position players. Not to mention a defense that was mediocre at best.
I know, I know - you don't like it when facts get in the way of your narrative....
Jones is certainly a part of that and that is what JS has to figure out. What level of play is reasonable to expect with these issues improved? How much can he pay before it hurts accomplishing this? How confident is he in going the draft if Jones prices himself out?
Whatever he does the end result you need to win and that does make it complicated imv.
The coaching staff by virtue of knowing the design of the play along with the all-22 film know this better than anyone.
Every QB in the course of the 100's of reads + decisions they have to make each game will make a few mistakes.
The frequency of when there was a play to be made and when he actually made it is the context many of us are missing when we judge DJ.
For example, Hurt's ascension surely had something to do with him maturing but it also had a ton to do with the offense adding a number #1 WR to the mix for him to throw to. So the opportunities for him to make a play within that offense opened up tremendously. Same with Allen when he got Diggs. Same with Tua with Hill etc. etc.
DJ's opportunities to make or even create a big play are often nowhere near those of the QBs he's often being compared to. Those team's either had far superior receivers, far superior pass protecting offensive lines, or sometimes both.
Very complex situation for Schoen.
LOL! It's amazing how far Jones haters will go to twist themselves up to try to support a failing narrative...
A lot of good (and great) QB's feast against "weak defenses" because.....wait for it....they are good (and great) QB's; mediocre/bad QB's struggle against these same defenses...
And conversely, a lot of good (and great) QB's struggle against "top shelf units" because....wait for it....they are a top shelf unit; you don't get to be considered a top shelf unit unless you make a lot of QB's look bad...
But don't let facts get in the way of your failing narrative!
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Jones is certainly a part of that and that is what JS has to figure out. What level of play is reasonable to expect with these issues improved? How much can he pay before it hurts accomplishing this? How confident is he in going the draft if Jones prices himself out?
Whatever he does the end result you need to win and that does make it complicated imv.
A bottom 5 receiving unit is going to struggle to get open against elite defenses. There is only so much a QB can do to manufacture offense on his own. In addition considering an OL that has often been subpar to horrible in pass pro much of the year, even Tom Brady wouldn't have done better in many of those situations.
We don't see flashes of brilliance and then mediocre play from DJ because he is simply an inconsistent QB . It is due to the lack of a true decent to high level support system around him.
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Yep - At some point Jones will not be able to be the gazelle-like runner (risk doubly is the more you run, the risk you take a hit that knocks you out for couple games or longer). I think he's an incredible physical talent quite honestly (and I see where Gettleman probably fell in love with him, watching him prep, play, talk).
I have questions about his abilities to toy the secondary a bit. He executed this year on an offense that was carefully tailored but had very little margin for error and I give him credit for doing it, but I think folks are getting way too overindulgent in expectations. The one positive that I felt he really made this year, was in making better calls and audibling at the line.
I think Daboll's tutelage helped but I am not sold he will be a guy that evolves/sustains as he approaches age 29-30 seasons and beyond.
Sammo, the guy threw well this year, especially given the lack of a burner with hands..He threw well on the run in either direction, threw bullets from the pocket at times and pretty much toyed with the secondary when he had a reasonable amount of time to set..Did he overthrow receivers? Sure..Did he throw clunkers at times? Sure. Just like even the elite QBs with, in some cases, far better receivers..
Not believing in him is a very subjective classification. I also think there’s a huge difference in what fans think/want to how NFL franchises operate - the goals aren’t the same either.
NFL franchises have to operate in almost exclusively gray area. Outside of your Mahomes’ and Allen’s you live got a whole bunch of QBs who are good but not great. They can not sign anyone until they find great - or they can go this route and risk never finding great and likely never win in the process.
The Giants clearly want to build off of 2022 but know they don’t have a top tier QB. You want them to go back to the drawing board, and that’s a fine opinion to have, but that’s operating in black/white which really isn’t the world these GMs live in.
IMO the college QBs with elite running ability that have a “decent arm” are going high in the draft and the ones with poor arms don’t because they suck at throwing. So if that’s what you are describing you are basically asking for a brand new offense to be created and sustained in the NFL.
By decent I mean decent. Not Josh Allen strong, not Aaron Rodgers accurate but close enough. I am not looking to get technical. There are any number of guys that throw like Purdy available. Meaning a QB that is more accurate than strong.
But, they must be able to run a good RPO - meaning better runner than passer - a scaled back Lamar.
And yes, it is a different offense - more like college. The Ravens tailored an offense for Lamar. Peyton Manning was ridiculously accurate, but a below average arm strength. So was Joe Montana. You can do well in the NFL without Josh Allen ype cannon.
And yes I am talking about someone you would more likely looking at as a backup in today's NFL. If someone like Purdy can win 6-8 games in a row then there are others like him. Surround a RPO style QB with better weapons and let him go. You can get a lot of very good players for the $40 mill saved in not paying for an elite QB. And it is more likely you will find higher skilled WRs and RBs at a lower cost than finding a Patrick Mahomes/Joe Burrow QB to fill out the roster.
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Yep.
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Is Jones the guy or not. If not then giving him 3/35 is a huge mistake. Giving a guy who you don’t believe in that much for that long. That’s nuts. If he is the guy then 3/35 is also a mistake. Giving a guy you think is the guy a 2nd bit at the apple in 3 years is bad contract management. That’s not to mention i don’t think Jones isn’t accepting that offer.
Not believing in him is a very subjective classification. I also think there’s a huge difference in what fans think/want to how NFL franchises operate - the goals aren’t the same either.
NFL franchises have to operate in almost exclusively gray area. Outside of your Mahomes’ and Allen’s you live got a whole bunch of QBs who are good but not great. They can not sign anyone until they find great - or they can go this route and risk never finding great and likely never win in the process.
The Giants clearly want to build off of 2022 but know they don’t have a top tier QB.
Do you think #8 could in fact become elite if he had the upgrades that Hurts, Allen, Tua, Lawrence etc. got?
Many were questioning these guys too and then each one looked completely different once they got a #1 WR.
That is likely the minimum of what it will cost to keep him. He is a "somewhat" proven commodity. He is a starting QB in the NFL with a playoff win and doing it with mediocre at best WRS.
Any reasonable GM is going to hedge his bet if he can get away with it. Jones will not likely ever be upper tier, but he likely is second level or capable of it. You are not paying 1st tier money for 2nd level and you are not paying 4th tier money for a 2nd tier QB.
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In comment 16026168 giantBCP said:
Jones will take us to the cleaners, only because Schoen put him in a position to do so.
giantBCP, you know the 5th yr option would've been for one year ('23), right? And as big a Jones fan as you seem to be, you probably think that with a 2nd yr in this system, with better pass pro and better WRs/weapons, he's going to have an even better season next year than he did in '22, right? It's reasonable to think that, imo.
Wouldn't it be better to sign Jones to a longer term contract now, vs. this time next year (after a better season, with more pass TDs, yards, wins, etc.)? Jones leverage to "take us to the cleaners" will very possibly be much stronger next year.
So, we'll be paying him more in '23 under a new contract than the 5th yr option, but in the long run, it's going to cost us less (possibly tens of millions, 35Mx4 vs. 45M x6, as example).
Lastly, do you really not understand that given Jones neck injury and inconsistent performance (even if a lot wasn't his fault), Daboll and Schoen wanted to see Jones up close before committing long term to him?
Do you buy cars and homes without seeing them up close? I know some people do, but it's not necessarily the smartest thing to do.
Excellent post
How many teams out there have a top tier supporting cast along with a top GM and coaching? A couple? Trying to then add in a constant flow of mediocre QB talent but never pay them seems like a massive pipe dream. Shanahan has been the closest to it and gave up the farm for Lance because that next tier is what he felt they needed. His tenure has been in the “best case scenario” bucket, everyone else trying to emulate likely won’t and hasn’t.
Again I’m all for scrapping the proven model because this is all just entertainment for me, but it has major drawbacks that can’t just be glossed over.
It's quiet re: negotiations, but fans are overrating him relative to reality, from what I've heard. eg, 3/105 ballpark is much more realistic than 5/200.
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Yep - At some point Jones will not be able to be the gazelle-like runner (risk doubly is the more you run, the risk you take a hit that knocks you out for couple games or longer). I think he's an incredible physical talent quite honestly (and I see where Gettleman probably fell in love with him, watching him prep, play, talk).
I have questions about his abilities to toy the secondary a bit. He executed this year on an offense that was carefully tailored but had very little margin for error and I give him credit for doing it, but I think folks are getting way too overindulgent in expectations. The one positive that I felt he really made this year, was in making better calls and audibling at the line.
I think Daboll's tutelage helped but I am not sold he will be a guy that evolves/sustains as he approaches age 29-30 seasons and beyond.
Sammo, the guy threw well this year, especially given the lack of a burner with hands..He threw well on the run in either direction, threw bullets from the pocket at times and pretty much toyed with the secondary when he had a reasonable amount of time to set..Did he overthrow receivers? Sure..Did he throw clunkers at times? Sure. Just like even the elite QBs with, in some cases, far better receivers..
Ok. But I don't understand what your point is given I haven't disputed that? Again - he was a big reason we won some games this year. I don't know why some folks on here appear to get so defensive about Jones regarding semi-reasonable and sustainable concerns about him we want to have answered next year that in some ways need to be addressed continuously by QBs and especially when they get paid big dollars.
He did some things that "looked good" and "looked better". But there is still some areas in his game that I want to see more out of (Sy has alluded to this as well). I think fans here get too focused on just blaming OL and receivers for anything and everything. Jones proved he deserves to stay starting QB here next year and get some more money and answer questions about elevating himself again with some better supporting cast.
I'm not saying I want to see Jones crippled with a bad leg and have to do it with an eye patch. I just don't want to hand a guy a huge long-term contract yet, when he's got 1 year healthy production on resume at this point. I have no qualms of paying a bit more in two years if truly earned. And I'm someone who believe Joe Judge was the worst thing to happen to him (regardless of what Jones and Judge say in the media).
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Yep.
Not surprising, given you believed DJ was a goner after this year, didn’t believe Daboll would elevate his play as some of us believed he would, that he had too many flaws to be a franchise guy. You totally whiffed on him and so your concession to the year he’s had is to say he elevated himself to just an average passer now? Even Joey, who arguably knows more than anyone on this board has completely come around, completely seen and bought into his skillset and admitted he was totally wrong on DJ..And no, at no time has he said DJ was/is a great QB, just one we could win with moving forward, esp. with added pieces. You don’t have to be great or elite to get to/win a SB
I do think Sando is off on what it'll take though. I hope he's right but history isn't on his side.
LOL, who is arguing in bad faith? Sorry that you're mad I poked holes in your argument....
How many teams out there have a top tier supporting cast along with a top GM and coaching? A couple? Trying to then add in a constant flow of mediocre QB talent but never pay them seems like a massive pipe dream. Shanahan has been the closest to it and gave up the farm for Lance because that next tier is what he felt they needed. His tenure has been in the “best case scenario” bucket, everyone else trying to emulate likely won’t and hasn’t.
Again I’m all for scrapping the proven model because this is all just entertainment for me, but it has major drawbacks that can’t just be glossed over.
It would be more sustainable than looking for a unicorn QB. Remember the proven model was a power running game and occasional passing not so very long ago. And drafting a Trey Lance is shooting yourself in the foot.
But it is just a thought because there are far more Purdys out there than Mahomes's...plus, your offensive linemen coming out of college are used to this style of play and the associated blocking it takes.
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In comment 16026343 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Yep - At some point Jones will not be able to be the gazelle-like runner (risk doubly is the more you run, the risk you take a hit that knocks you out for couple games or longer). I think he's an incredible physical talent quite honestly (and I see where Gettleman probably fell in love with him, watching him prep, play, talk).
I have questions about his abilities to toy the secondary a bit. He executed this year on an offense that was carefully tailored but had very little margin for error and I give him credit for doing it, but I think folks are getting way too overindulgent in expectations. The one positive that I felt he really made this year, was in making better calls and audibling at the line.
I think Daboll's tutelage helped but I am not sold he will be a guy that evolves/sustains as he approaches age 29-30 seasons and beyond.
Sammo, the guy threw well this year, especially given the lack of a burner with hands..He threw well on the run in either direction, threw bullets from the pocket at times and pretty much toyed with the secondary when he had a reasonable amount of time to set..Did he overthrow receivers? Sure..Did he throw clunkers at times? Sure. Just like even the elite QBs with, in some cases, far better receivers..
Ok. But I don't understand what your point is given I haven't disputed that? Again - he was a big reason we won some games this year. I don't know why some folks on here appear to get so defensive about Jones regarding semi-reasonable and sustainable concerns about him we want to have answered next year that in some ways need to be addressed continuously by QBs and especially when they get paid big dollars.
He did some things that "looked good" and "looked better". But there is still some areas in his game that I want to see more out of (Sy has alluded to this as well). I think fans here get too focused on just blaming OL and receivers for anything and everything. Jones proved he deserves to stay starting QB here next year and get some more money and answer questions about elevating himself again with some better supporting cast.
I'm not saying I want to see Jones crippled with a bad leg and have to do it with an eye patch. I just don't want to hand a guy a huge long-term contract yet, when he's got 1 year healthy production on resume at this point. I have no qualms of paying a bit more in two years if truly earned. And I'm someone who believe Joe Judge was the worst thing to happen to him (regardless of what Jones and Judge say in the media).
Ok..But, as you know the QB market pays absurd dollars to QBs, so anything less than 35-40 mill in this absurd market, would probably be a steal, no?
The current evaluation of Jones has this problem in spades.
If a Schoen went this route it would be a fun ride but odds are he’d be out of a job sooner rather than later. There just isn’t a heck of a lot of time to build that plan out if results don’t accumulate quickly. It’s probably why this Jones scenario is what it is because moving on has a lot of downside many on here don’t want to recognize for some reason.
The current evaluation of Jones has this problem in spades.
Same with Hurts as an example. One either believes Daboll and company will continue to help DJ elevate his game, or not..They will have to make the long or longer term decision as to whether or not DJ’s “small sample” size has shown them enough to move forward with him as their franchise. Unfortunately, they’ve only had the one year to evaluate given that they rightly refused (imo) his 5th year option..
Fair enough. I'd qualify 'very good' as a QB you can win a Super Bowl with as Mara once put it.
Personally, I think he can make just as big a jump as Hurts did with the floor being 'very good' given an appropriately improved roster around him.
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Lastly, do you really not understand that given Jones neck injury and inconsistent performance (even if a lot wasn't his fault), Daboll and Schoen wanted to see Jones up close before committing long term to him?
Do you buy cars and homes without seeing them up close? I know some people do, but it's not necessarily the smartest thing to do.
Excellent post
Thanks Rjanyg
If a Schoen went this route it would be a fun ride but odds are he’d be out of a job sooner rather than later. There just isn’t a heck of a lot of time to build that plan out if results don’t accumulate quickly. It’s probably why this Jones scenario is what it is because moving on has a lot of downside many on here don’t want to recognize for some reason.
Fair enough.
I know what I am thinking is a bit odd. I just think paying $45+ mill to one player so severely limits the team's ability to improve by adding better supporting players. Plus if QB #1 gets hurt(season ending) - that is the end of the season if the team is built totally around him.
Like JonC and a few others, I am still a bit skeptical on Jones. He absolutely improved this year(more so than I believed possible). But stinkers like Philly make you nervous. Yet, it was a complete team failure and I include the coaching.
I am thinking that Schoen is saying that Jones has earned the right to return and prove that he is capable of still improving to the next level, but there will be a limit to what the Giants will pay for that continued learning curve.
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there’s the very massive gray area you are leaving out. NFL GMs aren’t chasing unicorns and they aren’t selling ownership on getting by with the Purdy’s of the world. They’ve got 3 maybe 4 years to make their mark, thus, the gray area is almost always the route taken.
If a Schoen went this route it would be a fun ride but odds are he’d be out of a job sooner rather than later. There just isn’t a heck of a lot of time to build that plan out if results don’t accumulate quickly. It’s probably why this Jones scenario is what it is because moving on has a lot of downside many on here don’t want to recognize for some reason.
Fair enough.
I know what I am thinking is a bit odd. I just think paying $45+ mill to one player so severely limits the team's ability to improve by adding better supporting players. Plus if QB #1 gets hurt(season ending) - that is the end of the season if the team is built totally around him.
Like JonC and a few others, I am still a bit skeptical on Jones. He absolutely improved this year(more so than I believed possible). But stinkers like Philly make you nervous. Yet, it was a complete team failure and I include the coaching.
I am thinking that Schoen is saying that Jones has earned the right to return and prove that he is capable of still improving to the next level, but there will be a limit to what the Giants will pay for that continued learning curve.
In fairness, most QBs had stinkers vs the Eagles this year..😎
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In comment 16026439 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16026343 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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Ok..But, as you know the QB market pays absurd dollars to QBs, so anything less than 35-40 mill in this absurd market, would probably be a steal, no?
Therein lies the problem. Many of us don't believe he has earned that kind of contract yet.
Teams will eventually realize that paying above average QBs big money is not worth it and is detrimental to the team. The Raiders are ahead of the curve already. They know that they can't compete in their division paying Carr $40M a year when Mahomes makes $45M a year. We will see what they do with the team going forward but they do not have a chance to build a team good enough to win that division with Carr's contract on the books.
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likely not. Can’t prove it of course but Jones strikes me as a player who can get up to very good status (top 10 for me). But “elite” I’m reserving for the big 4 right now and Jones is several rungs below that which is fine as long as the pay goes hand in hand with it (which it likely won’t).
Fair enough. I'd qualify 'very good' as a QB you can win a Super Bowl with as Mara once put it.
Personally, I think he can make just as big a jump as Hurts did with the floor being 'very good' given an appropriately improved roster around him.
There’s a bunch of QBs that can win a Super Bowl, and I’m not sure there’s any way to know who, in the non elite group, can and can’t do it until they get some chances.
I’m not focused on making sure I can answer that question because there’s quite a lot of luck and circumstance for that if you aren’t a top tier player. My focus is finding a guy that gets me to the playoffs every year since it’s something we can measure and will allow more opportunities to get hot and go on a run.
I'm very interested to see the decision Schoen makes if Jones' camp is aiming well above the value placed on him. It would not shock me if they tag him based on a similar perspective and opinion. While they need to improve the roster, it's going to be an offseason of re-signing their own guys, focusing on assembling a strong draft, and not going wild on the UFA market. imv. They will most likely be able to afford the non-exclusive tag and move forward with negotiations. If Jones wants to go, take the draft picks and go find your QB.
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“The agents like to keep driving it up, and I totally understand that, and it seems like there is always one team that pays,” a third exec said. “You just have to have the guts to not do it. Those good coaches like Brian Daboll can get more from the cheaper guys.
If we assume the bold is true, and I would say most of the board leans that way, than a very good argument can be made that Jones' skills are fungible.
Outside of his plus running skills, which were certainly key this year, there are no other skills in the plus category for Jones. Everything else falls squarely into the average zone vis-a-vis the rest of his peers. He just isn't a special player/talent.
It's much more prudent to reward special - which Sean suggests earlier in this thread - than over-pay a guy who is going to require even more offensive investments (cap resources) just to find out if we can possibly win big prizes with him.
I'm very interested to see the decision Schoen makes if Jones' camp is aiming well above the value placed on him. It would not shock me if they tag him based on a similar perspective and opinion. While they need to improve the roster, it's going to be an offseason of re-signing their own guys, focusing on assembling a strong draft, and not going wild on the UFA market. imv. They will most likely be able to afford the non-exclusive tag and move forward with negotiations. If Jones wants to go, take the draft picks and go find your QB.
Only problem with the tag is that it is $32 mill locked up without being able to push $$ to other years while reducing the cap hit.
I think 3 yrs near the tag # allows for further evals while not totally handcuffing them. Would love two years, but I doubt they can get an agreement with his agents there.
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The most difficult part of scouting football was. Sy’s answer was “small sample sizes.”
The current evaluation of Jones has this problem in spades.
Same with Hurts as an example. One either believes Daboll and company will continue to help DJ elevate his game, or not..They will have to make the long or longer term decision as to whether or not DJ’s “small sample” size has shown them enough to move forward with him as their franchise. Unfortunately, they’ve only had the one year to evaluate given that they rightly refused (imo) his 5th year option..
Schoen and Daboll have had more than one year to evaluate Jones. They are in the football business and most certainly watched, discussed and/or put together evals on him when he was in college, coming out for the draft and playing for the NYG for several years before they showed up. Not exercising the 5th year option was clearly based on more than just a meet-and-greet last February.
With that said, if Schoen didn't like what the 2022 draft had in terms of QB prospects and knowing that Jones was already paid for in 2022, it really wasn't all that hard a decision to still give him the starting job last season. Expectations for the team had to have been pretty low for the new regime.
But now hitching a $35M+ price tag for several years to that same wagon...big decision for this regime. Even with a noticeable improvement in Jones' game. These are the kind of decisions that cause GMs and HCs to get turned over.
Use the franchise tag and keep everybody on their toes for 2023. And if there is also a QB that makes the grade in the first couple rounds and within reach, then certainly give it a go as well.
I would use the tag as a tool but I think the time is now to gamble on Jones if the two sides can agree on something reasonable. If he is holding out for Kyler money? Sure tag him. But I'd rather roll the dice now and take my medicine in a couple of years than kick the can with the potential looming for those salaries exploding. If you have to pull the cord on Jones later on, you're presumably replacing him with a rookie salary which should ease the pain.
There's also the fringe benefit of having the franchise tag available. It can be used on Jones this year and we may need it for Dex next year if he's looking to blow up the DT market. X is another guy that actually strikes me as a perfect tag candidate. This is a fringe benefit, not the reason to rush to sign Jones, but something worth considering.
Outside of his plus running skills, which were certainly key this year, there are no other skills in the plus category for Jones. Everything else falls squarely into the average zone vis-a-vis the rest of his peers. He just isn't a special player/talent.
Have to disagree that his only above average skill is running(and it is well above average). He was virtually as accurate as any QB in the NFL 67% with these WRs is pretty good. His INT rate was #1. His lack of fumbles was near the top...
The rubber will meet the road soon, and then we'll know how they view Jones, Saquon, Love, et al in terms of being core and within the cap and value structures, not to mention restructure targets, eg Leonard and Adoree. It would not shock me if some of the new contracts are short while they're working on the foundation and bringing him so many new faces.
Bingo, DJ is an excellent QB and the REAL evaluators know it. If he doesn't get his deal from the Giants, he will somewhere else. Some on this board will be surprised on the deal he gets.
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In comment 16026431 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Yep.
You totally whiffed on him and so your concession to the year he’s had is to say he elevated himself to just an average passer now?
He is an average passer according to nearly every advanced metric (QBR, DVOA, PFF). His elite skill is running, which is also verified by every advanced metric. The reason he jumped from the 25th best QB in the league to the 12th or 13th this season is because his passing progressed from 'among the worst in the league' to 'average,' while his running progressed from good to outstanding.
It's a good development and he's earned more years at QB (under a reasonable cost) but there's more progress to be made before he could crack the top-ten purely as a passer.
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In comment 16026152 christian said:
Outside of his plus running skills, which were certainly key this year, there are no other skills in the plus category for Jones. Everything else falls squarely into the average zone vis-a-vis the rest of his peers. He just isn't a special player/talent.
Have to disagree that his only above average skill is running(and it is well above average). He was virtually as accurate as any QB in the NFL 67% with these WRs is pretty good. His INT rate was #1. His lack of fumbles was near the top...
Jones played in a low risk offense. I believe that drove the notable INT%.
The completion% is derivative of having one of the lowest air-yards traveled in the NFL.
I don't mind you pointing those out, but there are legitimate causes for those results.
He is an average passer according to nearly every advanced metric (QBR, DVOA, PFF). His elite skill is running, which is also verified by every advanced metric. The reason he jumped from the 25th best QB in the league to the 12th or 13th this season is because his passing progressed from 'among the worst in the league' to 'average,' while his running progressed from good to outstanding.
It's a good development and he's earned more years at QB (under a reasonable cost) but there's more progress to be made before he could crack the top-ten purely as a passer.
I'll add that this past season isn't his only stretch of above-average play. His performance in the first four games of 2021 were actually pretty good, then he got concussed against Dallas and rushed back, and Judge went into a shell with the offensive injuries. His performance fell off from there until his neck injury.
The completion% is derivative of having one of the lowest air-yards traveled in the NFL.
I don't mind you pointing those out, but there are legitimate causes for those results.
And could it be argued that those very same metrics are at the same time part of the reason his average-ness stays below the next tier? That is to say, scheme will strongly influence metrics that value more yds attempt/completions.
And Eli had WRs and an OL on an entire different level than DJ has had for much of his career.
You had a lot of questions on the OL going into the season and then the SL injury to start. Neal was a better run blocker than pass one. Bellinger was more of a blocker and needed to develop as a receiver. Journeyman center.
Then the really big issue which was the WR's. I would not be surprised if they knew KG was damaged good in OTA's. The camp reports highlighted KG having separation issues. Toney was already being Toney and that stayed the same. Wandale was a rookie. Then a bunch of players they were trying to find a role.
Where are people coming with this outstanding air attack potential? In the NFCE on top of it with all three division teams having outstanding fronts.
BD correctly identified the teams strength and went that way imv. Jones was a big part of its success.
And Eli had WRs and an OL on an entire different level than DJ has had for much of his career.
Sorry, that's not logic.
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore Jones is as good as Eli.
Sorry, your conclusion doesn't follow your propositions. Much more likely is the following:
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore, people assume Jones is same as Eli and he gets a big contract. Jones can't play up to the contract.
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This is eerily similar.
And Eli had WRs and an OL on an entire different level than DJ has had for much of his career.
Sorry, that's not logic.
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore Jones is as good as Eli.
Sorry, your conclusion doesn't follow your propositions. Much more likely is the following:
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore, people assume Jones is same as Eli and he gets a big contract. Jones can't play up to the contract.
The point really is properly accounting for the variables at play here. QB play is not judged in a vacuum.
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In comment 16026431 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Yep.
Not surprising, given you believed DJ was a goner after this year, didn’t believe Daboll would elevate his play as some of us believed he would, that he had too many flaws to be a franchise guy. You totally whiffed on him and so your concession to the year he’s had is to say he elevated himself to just an average passer now? Even Joey, who arguably knows more than anyone on this board has completely come around, completely seen and bought into his skillset and admitted he was totally wrong on DJ..And no, at no time has he said DJ was/is a great QB, just one we could win with moving forward, esp. with added pieces. You don’t have to be great or elite to get to/win a SB
The emotion behind this post.
When?
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In comment 16026602 CornerStone246+17 said:
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This is eerily similar.
And Eli had WRs and an OL on an entire different level than DJ has had for much of his career.
Sorry, that's not logic.
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore Jones is as good as Eli.
Sorry, your conclusion doesn't follow your propositions. Much more likely is the following:
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore, people assume Jones is same as Eli and he gets a big contract. Jones can't play up to the contract.
The point really is properly accounting for the variables at play here. QB play is not judged in a vacuum.
But actual talent to play the position is one of the variables, and I think, the biggest variable.
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When things were equal the kid DOMINATED!!!
When?
They're making up their own reality. They don't want to deal with any of the warning signs.
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In comment 16026619 Producer said:
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In comment 16026602 CornerStone246+17 said:
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This is eerily similar.
And Eli had WRs and an OL on an entire different level than DJ has had for much of his career.
Sorry, that's not logic.
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore Jones is as good as Eli.
Sorry, your conclusion doesn't follow your propositions. Much more likely is the following:
Fans questioned Eli and now fans are questioning Jones. And Jones has a lesser team. Therefore, people assume Jones is same as Eli and he gets a big contract. Jones can't play up to the contract.
The point really is properly accounting for the variables at play here. QB play is not judged in a vacuum.
But actual talent to play the position is one of the variables, and I think, the biggest variable.
Which is very true. However that is determined by what was mentioned above in that how often is he making or creating a good play when there is an actual play to made. I think given the more limited opportunities he has had due to the stark talent disparity between this offense and many of the QBs hes compared to, he has done remarkably well.
Playing vs Minny he was able to show how elite he can be when his WRs get open on a semi-consistent basis. Problem is neither this OL in pass pro nor the WRs were good enough to resemble anything even close to functional vs stronger defenses most of the time this year.
Jones is a good QB at this point, by good I mean he is in the top 16 in the league and after you get through the top 4-5 there is a 2nd tier of QBs from 5-16 or so and then after that you have a few guys who are OK and then the rest of the teams looking for a QB. Every QB has their own situation whether it be coaching or bad offense or a perfect fit. I think Jones right now is in a perfect fit after being crippled by Garrett/Judge. His stock is on the rise.
We just got the team going in the right direction and I would hate to start over with a rookie QB or Taylor or any other option. A deal with Jones is going to get done. It would be avery bad look for Schoen if Jones is stuck on the FT next year and it hampers our offseason again. So in my opinion a deal will get done with Jones, I really dont care of the length or the money as long as the cap number this year is low maybe $15 Mil so we can add some pieces in FA andnot have to go vet minimum on every contract. The cap is going to go up by $10 - $20 mil every year so even at $40 mil a year it will be a decent deal going forward. And if Jones falls flat they can absorb the hit in one year and be low enough in the draft ot get a new QB.
Im not sure why so many people hate on Jones. He works hard, he reps the team well and he is giving everything he has to become the best he can be. Thats a guy I want to root for. If he wasnt working hard and was an asshole thats a different story but we can do a lot worse than Jones. Just look at the Jets revolving door at QB and all of the teams who struggle to find the guy, they consistently pick in the top 10. We just got out of the top 10 and I am not interested in going back. For those that think its a small sample, look at Jones rookie year and the promise he showed and then the Judge effect for 2 years and now back on the right track.
Jones played in a low risk offense. I believe that drove the notable INT%.
The completion% is derivative of having one of the lowest air-yards traveled in the NFL.
I don't mind you pointing those out, but there are legitimate causes for those results.
I agree it was a low risk offense and you can attribute that to:
1.) Learning a new offense and the WRs were slow to acquire it. Remember Shepard yelling at the WRs to learn their jobs. It took until mid-season to pare down the WRS and add Hodgins.
2.) OLine just could not consistently pass block
3.) Jones was not confident in his reads - for whatever reason, some of which was on him until late in the year
4.) They depended on Barkley to carry the load.
5.) IMV, while he had spurts of growth early on, it wasn't until the Washington 2nd game that they let him loose.
6.) yard per attempt - ok but he was identical to Herbert and ahead of Rodgers, for instance. The Giants just did not have the WRs to do much else. I would like to see his y/a in the final quarter of the year.
But all in all, I am not totally sold, quite yet. I am encouraged and at least I do not feel despair at the position.
The rubber will meet the road soon, and then we'll know how they view Jones, Saquon, Love, et al in terms of being core and within the cap and value structures, not to mention restructure targets, eg Leonard and Adoree. It would not shock me if some of the new contracts are short while they're working on the foundation and bringing him so many new faces.
Sorry, I had to do some chores before my boss got home.
I agree that Schoen is not doing much in FA - maybe a second level player or two. Most new people will be draftees, UDFA, late cuts, etc.
I suppose after cuts(Golladay) and some restructures/extensions (Williams and Jackson hopefully) they will have room to maneuver. If they do not upgrade the line and the WRs, then there will be not much else to evaluate Jones on. I'd be ok with the Tag, if there is enough left in the cap to get deals done with Dex, AT, hopefully Love and bring in better WRs.
I do not disagree with what you are saying, that we need to see more for them to go full in on Jones. IDK, maybe Daboll and Schoen have seen enough...
I think he showed better as a HC this year than his work he did as a offensive guru which is more important.
You like to pop off BBS. Perhaps get the details down first so you don't sound stupider than those you like to call out.
Birds of a feather...
The owner's comments will be irrelevant. Schoen is running the show and I believe he has the owners ear and confidence.
Whatever "leverage" you imagine Jones has, and I agree he has a little, it won't force a $200M contract if Schoen doesn't believe he is the answer. If Schoen caves on his honest eval because of Jones' leverage, then we are screwed.
Jones has less leverage than you think.
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I have one. Jones is going to cost more than most of us would like. He has leverage and the owner said stupid stuff at the start of the season that is going to cost us more than 10 million at the bargaining table over the course of his contract. The Giants will not make him play on the tag.
Whatever "leverage" you imagine Jones has, and I agree he has a little, it won't force a $200M contract if Schoen doesn't believe he is the answer. If Schoen caves on his honest eval because of Jones' leverage, then we are screwed.
Jones has less leverage than you think.
Since we don't know what Schoen's honest eval of Jones is, how would we know that he caved?
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In comment 16026731 Thegratefulhead said:
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I have one. Jones is going to cost more than most of us would like. He has leverage and the owner said stupid stuff at the start of the season that is going to cost us more than 10 million at the bargaining table over the course of his contract. The Giants will not make him play on the tag.
Whatever "leverage" you imagine Jones has, and I agree he has a little, it won't force a $200M contract if Schoen doesn't believe he is the answer. If Schoen caves on his honest eval because of Jones' leverage, then we are screwed.
Jones has less leverage than you think.
Since we don't know what Schoen's honest eval of Jones is, how would we know that he caved?
I agree. It will be largely speculation.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, that will tell us something. If there is a hold up over 2+ yrs guaranteed vs 4 yrs guaranteed, that might tell us something.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, that will tell us something. If there is a hold up over 2+ yrs guaranteed vs 4 yrs guaranteed, that might tell us something.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, Jones will be playing for someone else.
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Producer said:
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, that will tell us something. If there is a hold up over 2+ yrs guaranteed vs 4 yrs guaranteed, that might tell us something.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, Jones will be playing for someone else.
It will be fascinating to watch how this unfolds. I really have no idea what the Giants are thinking.
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In comment 16026801 Producer said:
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Producer said:
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, that will tell us something. If there is a hold up over 2+ yrs guaranteed vs 4 yrs guaranteed, that might tell us something.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, Jones will be playing for someone else.
It will be fascinating to watch how this unfolds. I really have no idea what the Giants are thinking.
I'd agree.
February 21 – March 7: Teams may designate Franchise or Transition Players.
I'm very interested to see the decision Schoen makes if Jones' camp is aiming well above the value placed on him. It would not shock me if they tag him based on a similar perspective and opinion. While they need to improve the roster, it's going to be an offseason of re-signing their own guys, focusing on assembling a strong draft, and not going wild on the UFA market. imv. They will most likely be able to afford the non-exclusive tag and move forward with negotiations. If Jones wants to go, take the draft picks and go find your QB.
Exactly right. Modest two year bridge contract or non-exclusive franchise tag. The lessons learned from the disastrous contracts of less than elite quarterbacks are incontrovertible. It is hard to fathom the continued delusional notion that DJ is anything more than an average passer with above average mobility but it appears it will continue to fester despite four years of self-evident facts to the contrary. Let's hope you are right Jon.
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we need to decide whether we tag DJ or not?
February 21 – March 7: Teams may designate Franchise or Transition Players.
Thank you
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
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we need to decide whether we tag DJ or not?
February 21 – March 7: Teams may designate Franchise or Transition Players.
Or decide to tag Saquon or not.
Quite the dilemma, so many critical players to keep for the future and so few tags.
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Producer said:
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, that will tell us something. If there is a hold up over 2+ yrs guaranteed vs 4 yrs guaranteed, that might tell us something.
If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, Jones will be playing for someone else.
No team is giving Jones 4 yrs fully guaranteed.
If Jones turns down whatever the Giants best and final is, why wouldn't the Giants tag him? I know you think (probably correctly) it's a last resort. But you think they'll tag and trade him?
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If the Giants hold the line at 3 yrs, 2+yrs guaranteed, Jones will be playing for someone else.
If Jones turns down whatever the Giants best and final is, why wouldn't the Giants tag him? I know you think (probably correctly) it's a last resort. But you think they'll tag and trade him?
If they tag him, they will not trade him unless they get blown away by an offer. I truly think Daboll wants him at QB.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
This was fun reading as well.
Didn't realize that the next few weeks will decide that all the critics were completely wrong and Daniel Jones future as a forever star NFL QB is being engraved in stone.
We will also need to examine your posts more closely to determine all the correct paths the NY Giants should take from now on with their players as well.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
Lol. Yes, he doesn't suck and he has improved a lot. But if he gets the contract you all are so insistent he deserves, then he will just join the group of grossly overpaid above average to good quarterbacks with flawed teams who are not good enough to win a Superbowl. Cousins, Tanehill, Carr, Prescott, Goff, Murray, Jones.
Let's not forget that the Eagles were the beneficiary of the Titans being forced to trade Brown because they could not afford to keep him. Guess who has by far the biggest cap hit on their team?
I pray he takes a huge jump next year, but I am not holding my breath. But no one is allowed to complain about the pieces around DJ once he gets his contract.
JPA
@jasrifootball
Report: The belief is that the #Giants will be able to re-sign star RB Saquon Barkley before free agency opens up, per
@TonyPauline
Saquon could become one of the leagues highest paid backs after racking up 1,650 total yards and 10 touchdowns
Not. What did I read here today. Only two QBs in the last 30 years have played on the tag. DJ won't be the third.
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Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
Lol. Yes, he doesn't suck and he has improved a lot. But if he gets the contract you all are so insistent he deserves, then he will just join the group of grossly overpaid above average to good quarterbacks with flawed teams who are not good enough to win a Superbowl. Cousins, Tanehill, Carr, Prescott, Goff, Murray, Jones.
Let's not forget that the Eagles were the beneficiary of the Titans being forced to trade Brown because they could not afford to keep him. Guess who has by far the biggest cap hit on their team?
I pray he takes a huge jump next year, but I am not holding my breath. But no one is allowed to complain about the pieces around DJ once he gets his contract.
Hurts was looked upon as a joke before this year...he made a huge leap.
And why would no one be able to complain about the mediocre WRs and Oline if they aren't improved just because Jones got paid? Even Mahomes looked mundane when all his WRs got hurt vs the Bengals - yes his ankle too. But all he had was Kelce and Pacheco. They could not move the ball.
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In comment 16026894 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
Lol. Yes, he doesn't suck and he has improved a lot. But if he gets the contract you all are so insistent he deserves, then he will just join the group of grossly overpaid above average to good quarterbacks with flawed teams who are not good enough to win a Superbowl. Cousins, Tanehill, Carr, Prescott, Goff, Murray, Jones.
Let's not forget that the Eagles were the beneficiary of the Titans being forced to trade Brown because they could not afford to keep him. Guess who has by far the biggest cap hit on their team?
I pray he takes a huge jump next year, but I am not holding my breath. But no one is allowed to complain about the pieces around DJ once he gets his contract.
Hurts was looked upon as a joke before this year...he made a huge leap.
And why would no one be able to complain about the mediocre WRs and Oline if they aren't improved just because Jones got paid? Even Mahomes looked mundane when all his WRs got hurt vs the Bengals - yes his ankle too. But all he had was Kelce and Pacheco. They could not move the ball.
Hurts was not looked at as a joke before this year. That's your bias. He certainly wasn't a sure thing but he had made encouraging strides. And it's important to remember Hurts' strides have been enormous from one year to the next.
He's had one helluva season & is going to become a very, very rich man.
I pray he takes a huge jump next year, but I am not holding my breath. But no one is allowed to complain about the pieces around DJ once he gets his contract.
If Schoen is worth his salt, he will sign Jones to a salary cap friendly deal (at least in the first few years) that will allow him to get pieces around Jones.
Hell, getting just ONE good piece (WR) would be a huge boost..
It is hard to fathom the continued delusional notion that DJ is anything more than an average passer with above average mobility but it appears it will continue to fester despite four years of self-evident facts to the contrary. Let's hope you are right Jon.
FOUR years?! LOL. Like there was any "evidence" that could be used to assess any player in the org - much less the QB - during the Judge era? The only evidence that came out of that was Joe Judge was a fucking incompetent moron. And Garrett wasn't much better.
JPA
@jasrifootball
Report: The belief is that the #Giants will be able to re-sign star RB Saquon Barkley before free agency opens up, per
@TonyPauline
Saquon could become one of the leagues highest paid backs after racking up 1,650 total yards and 10 touchdowns
If this is true, specifically the part about making SB one of the highest paid RBs, it makes me start to doubt Schoen as the GM.
Quote:
JPA
@jasrifootball
Report: The belief is that the #Giants will be able to re-sign star RB Saquon Barkley before free agency opens up, per
@TonyPauline
Saquon could become one of the leagues highest paid backs after racking up 1,650 total yards and 10 touchdowns
If this is true, specifically the part about making SB one of the highest paid RBs, it makes me start to doubt Schoen as the GM.
Well, that didn’t take long
It just makes me sick when teams pay big second contracts to RBs. The evidence is pretty clear that it's almost always a bad investment in today's NFL.
It just makes me sick when teams pay big second contracts to RBs. The evidence is pretty clear that it's almost always a bad investment in today's NFL.
I would not pay Barkley one dime more than the franchise tender this year and how much per season after that depends on length and ability to extricate from the contract.
Hurts was not looked at as a joke before this year. That's your bias. He certainly wasn't a sure thing but he had made encouraging strides. And it's important to remember Hurts' strides have been enormous from one year to the next.
Ok, whatever because you are so unbiased...
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Or has it been pretty tight lipped?
It's quiet re: negotiations, but fans are overrating him relative to reality, from what I've heard. eg, 3/105 ballpark is much more realistic than 5/200.
I was thinking 4/135 or 4/140 (75 - 80M gtd) range with an easy out after 3 years.
But also an extra year of control at a reasonable number that can be used as leverage for an extension if warranted
Quote:
Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
This was fun reading as well.
Didn't realize that the next few weeks will decide that all the critics were completely wrong and Daniel Jones future as a forever star NFL QB is being engraved in stone.
We will also need to examine your posts more closely to determine all the correct paths the NY Giants should take from now on with their players as well.
I think it s almost a fact he will be signing a contract north of 30 mill, also very good chance it s with the Giants. Rereading my posts I must have missed the part guaranteeing he d be a star, he might become one, but that wasn’t part of my post
Don’t get your reference to checking with me about paths the team should take in the future. Being correct about what they would do with Jones doesn’t qualify me for that, but thanks for the confidence
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Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
Lol. Yes, he doesn't suck and he has improved a lot. But if he gets the contract you all are so insistent he deserves, then he will just join the group of grossly overpaid above average to good quarterbacks with flawed teams who are not good enough to win a Superbowl. Cousins, Tanehill, Carr, Prescott, Goff, Murray, Jones.
Let's not forget that the Eagles were the beneficiary of the Titans being forced to trade Brown because they could not afford to keep him. Guess who has by far the biggest cap hit on their team?
I pray he takes a huge jump next year, but I am not holding my breath. But no one is allowed to complain about the pieces around DJ once he gets his contract.
Stating he will get it is not the same as saying he deserves it.
I obviously think he is better than his detractors, and his play this season will get him the money. Whether it ends up being the correct decision has yet to be determined.
Obviously the Giants have seen enough to want to bring him back
JPA
@jasrifootball
Report: The belief is that the #Giants will be able to re-sign star RB Saquon Barkley before free agency opens up, per
@TonyPauline
Saquon could become one of the leagues highest paid backs after racking up 1,650 total yards and 10 touchdowns
Not sure I would lean on this source.
What I have said is that QBs can be assessed in isolation from their context, and that Jones' isolated traits aren't elite. I also said that he would have better production with better coaching/weapons but he would remain essentially the same QB with the same deficits. Finally, I have said, don't expect an enormous bump in production when surroundings get better, and so far, I'm right, hello 15 TD passes in 16 games. And if we add better wide outs, I say, Jones will not throw 35 TDs.
QBs do not have to elite traits, there are very few who do.
It is ultimately the combination of the traits that can make a player great.
Brady by his own admission has stated that he did not have any one elite ability. And his lack of elite traits dropped him to the 6th round of the draft.
But he is the GOAT.
And bye the way Jones does have a great trait. He is among the top three running QBs in the league.
I believe that Jones will create 30 or more tds next year. Jones had 7 rushing TDs along with his 15 passing TDs for a total of 22 tds. You have conveniently left out the 7 rushing TDs when you degrade his scoring. I guess it does not help your narrative.
You do not like Daniel Jones so you take every opportunity to attack his ability, traits, and potential.
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What I have said is that QBs can be assessed in isolation from their context, and that Jones' isolated traits aren't elite. I also said that he would have better production with better coaching/weapons but he would remain essentially the same QB with the same deficits. Finally, I have said, don't expect an enormous bump in production when surroundings get better, and so far, I'm right, hello 15 TD passes in 16 games. And if we add better wide outs, I say, Jones will not throw 35 TDs.
QBs do not have to elite traits, there are very few who do.
It is ultimately the combination of the traits that can make a player great.
Brady by his own admission has stated that he did not have any one elite ability. And his lack of elite traits dropped him to the 6th round of the draft.
But he is the GOAT.
And bye the way Jones does have a great trait. He is among the top three running QBs in the league.
I believe that Jones will create 30 or more tds next year. Jones had 7 rushing TDs along with his 15 passing TDs for a total of 22 tds. You have conveniently left out the 7 rushing TDs when you degrade his scoring. I guess it does not help your narrative.
You do not like Daniel Jones so you take every opportunity to attack his ability, traits, and potential.
Agreed on all points. He showed he can florush in this offense and made the right plays more often than not. Even created off script when the line blocked well enough for him to escape. At least to the best of what his supporting cast could give him. Get him anything near what Jalen Hurts had and he is going to look just as good as Jalen did.
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In comment 16026894 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
This was fun reading as well.
Didn't realize that the next few weeks will decide that all the critics were completely wrong and Daniel Jones future as a forever star NFL QB is being engraved in stone.
We will also need to examine your posts more closely to determine all the correct paths the NY Giants should take from now on with their players as well.
I think it s almost a fact he will be signing a contract north of 30 mill, also very good chance it s with the Giants. Rereading my posts I must have missed the part guaranteeing he d be a star, he might become one, but that wasn’t part of my post
Then I must have missed the part why it’s not okay to question giving a player who is not a star a contract north of $30 mill.
Quote:
What I have said is that QBs can be assessed in isolation from their context, and that Jones' isolated traits aren't elite. I also said that he would have better production with better coaching/weapons but he would remain essentially the same QB with the same deficits. Finally, I have said, don't expect an enormous bump in production when surroundings get better, and so far, I'm right, hello 15 TD passes in 16 games. And if we add better wide outs, I say, Jones will not throw 35 TDs.
I believe that Jones will create 30 or more tds next year. Jones had 7 rushing TDs along with his 15 passing TDs for a total of 22 tds. You have conveniently left out the 7 rushing TDs when you degrade his scoring. I guess it does not help your narrative.
He better create more than 30 TDs next year. You can add in the 7 rushing TDs. Jones had 22 total touchdowns. Mahomes had 45.
Mahomes' contract averages $45M per year. We are discussing Daniel Jones getting $40M per year. That doesn't seem utterly absurd to you?
He better create more than 30 TDs next year. You can add in the 7 rushing TDs. Jones had 22 total touchdowns. Mahomes had 45.
Mahomes' contract averages $45M per year. We are discussing Daniel Jones getting $40M per year. That doesn't seem utterly absurd to you?
Very few, if any, are advocating Jones getting $40 mill per. And once Jones gets the weapons Mahomes has, maybe he will get to 35 TDs. Most people are talking close to the tag level up to maybe $35 mill. That is what starting NFL QBs get paid - like it or not.
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He better create more than 30 TDs next year. You can add in the 7 rushing TDs. Jones had 22 total touchdowns. Mahomes had 45.
Mahomes' contract averages $45M per year. We are discussing Daniel Jones getting $40M per year. That doesn't seem utterly absurd to you?
Very few, if any, are advocating Jones getting $40 mill per. And once Jones gets the weapons Mahomes has, maybe he will get to 35 TDs. Most people are talking close to the tag level up to maybe $35 mill. That is what starting NFL QBs get paid - like it or not.
Then tag him. He isn't worth $35M per year either.
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In comment 16026144 giantBCP said:
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In comment 16026139 gidiefor said:
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comparing it to Cousins in Minn, Smith in Seattle, and "Daboll's ability to get more out of a lesser QB."
Daboll, the career failure before Buffalo, makes more with “lesser” QBs, like Josh Allen, a #5 overall draft pick, and Daniel Jones, a #6 overall draft pick. It’s an interesting take.
Career failure? You are such a fucking clown.
Natties at Bama and rings with NE don’t count. If they did, then Joe Judge would be considered an esteemed coach. Who did he “coach up” in his various stints as an OC before he got to work with elite talent?
Well, they sure as shit don't count as failures either.
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
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In comment 16026455 JonC said:
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In comment 16026431 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16026290 JonC said:
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That's where I am. Jones played well but it brought him up to average passer, plus runner, imv. Now is now the time to commit big to Jones.
Jones is an average passer? LOL..
Yep.
Not surprising, given you believed DJ was a goner after this year, didn’t believe Daboll would elevate his play as some of us believed he would, that he had too many flaws to be a franchise guy. You totally whiffed on him and so your concession to the year he’s had is to say he elevated himself to just an average passer now? Even Joey, who arguably knows more than anyone on this board has completely come around, completely seen and bought into his skillset and admitted he was totally wrong on DJ..And no, at no time has he said DJ was/is a great QB, just one we could win with moving forward, esp. with added pieces. You don’t have to be great or elite to get to/win a SB
The emotion behind this post.
Right? And to think of all the pearl clutching over Terps' comparatively neutral posts.
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
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In comment 16026907 chick310 said:
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In comment 16026894 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
This was fun reading as well.
Didn't realize that the next few weeks will decide that all the critics were completely wrong and Daniel Jones future as a forever star NFL QB is being engraved in stone.
We will also need to examine your posts more closely to determine all the correct paths the NY Giants should take from now on with their players as well.
I think it s almost a fact he will be signing a contract north of 30 mill, also very good chance it s with the Giants. Rereading my posts I must have missed the part guaranteeing he d be a star, he might become one, but that wasn’t part of my post
Then I must have missed the part why it’s not okay to question giving a player who is not a star a contract north of $30 mill.
I thought the discussion was about whether the Giants thought he was worth that money. Didn’t realize it was about you.
How about a five year contract, that the Giants can get out of after 2-3 years if needed? Of course, including those terms would likely bump up the dollars.
Personally, with his upward trending results with one of the lowest ranked olines (pass blocking specifically) and the worst group of WRs, I believe he ended up 2022 as top 10/15 QB easily. So yes, imagine if he had Jalen Hurst #1 oline and top 5 WRs? You don’t have to be a genius to see the obvious. Daboll knows.
Right? And to think of all the pearl clutching over Terps' comparatively neutral posts.
Show me one neutral post/thread by Terps on Jones...
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they will offer $112.5 for three years
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
The 3 year idea is because we don’t know whether Jones is the guy but also know he may be the guy. Your assertion that Schoen knows one way or the other other is just that, an assertion.
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they will offer $112.5 for three years
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
I asked you yesterday about this - why is black and white the only options? Schoen operates almost exclusively in between, as does any GM. There are tremendous risks with not bringing Jones back, just can’t gloss over that. Jones is 100% a proven starting NFL QB at this point, the question is how good and that why there’s uncertainty with cost and deal length.
You can’t operate in the “give him the biggest contract at the position because he’s your guy or nothing at all” space. It’s Madden world.
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In comment 16027209 uconngiant said:
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they will offer $112.5 for three years
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
The 3 year idea is because we don’t know whether Jones is the guy but also know he may be the guy. Your assertion that Schoen knows one way or the other other is just that, an assertion.
The other point is that "it takes two to tango." I think Schoen would love a 2 year deal if he could get it. I think Jones' agents want 4/5 years.
Three years is the middle. Something along the line of 2 years guaranteed and a third year bump up may be the sweet spot. The Giants could let Jones go after the 2nd year if he stagnates, but keep him and extend if he takes the next step(s) in the 3rd year.
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In comment 16027033 joeinpa said:
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In comment 16026907 chick310 said:
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In comment 16026894 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Some critics of Jones, after he and this team got to a place they said couldn’t happen, clinging to their narrative of Daniel by moving the goal posts.
I know it s difficult to admit you were wrong, but the fact that, Daniel whom many stated with authority would be a career as a back up, will soon be signing a 30+ million contract for a team, those same critics said he would never play for after this season, suggests you were indeed wrong
This was fun reading as well.
Didn't realize that the next few weeks will decide that all the critics were completely wrong and Daniel Jones future as a forever star NFL QB is being engraved in stone.
We will also need to examine your posts more closely to determine all the correct paths the NY Giants should take from now on with their players as well.
I think it s almost a fact he will be signing a contract north of 30 mill, also very good chance it s with the Giants. Rereading my posts I must have missed the part guaranteeing he d be a star, he might become one, but that wasn’t part of my post
Then I must have missed the part why it’s not okay to question giving a player who is not a star a contract north of $30 mill.
I thought the discussion was about whether the Giants thought he was worth that money. Didn’t realize it was about you.
Pretty sure this call-out post of yours attempted to open up the discussion up to a larger group...no?
Absent the guarantees, it's not a vote of confidence or commitment to the player. It's a bargaining win by the team in exchange for cash upfront.
Team Jones doesn't want a 5 year deal unless at least years 3 and 4 have mechanisms to make it hard for the Giants to cut him and his new cash compensation is pegged to cap inflation.
Absent the guarantees, it's not a vote of confidence or commitment to the player. It's a bargaining win by the team in exchange for cash upfront.
Team Jones doesn't want a 5 year deal unless at least years 3 and 4 have mechanisms to make it hard for the Giants to cut him and his new cash compensation is pegged to cap inflation.
If the agreed to contract is looked at in the right way meaning amount of gtd $$$ ,AAV etc. it will tell us quite a bit of what the Giants currently think of DJ.
Absent the guarantees, it's not a vote of confidence or commitment to the player. It's a bargaining win by the team in exchange for cash upfront.
Team Jones doesn't want a 5 year deal unless at least years 3 and 4 have mechanisms to make it hard for the Giants to cut him and his new cash compensation is pegged to cap inflation.
And therein, lies the rub...
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In comment 16027209 uconngiant said:
Quote:
they will offer $112.5 for three years
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
I asked you yesterday about this - why is black and white the only options? Schoen operates almost exclusively in between, as does any GM. There are tremendous risks with not bringing Jones back, just can’t gloss over that. Jones is 100% a proven starting NFL QB at this point, the question is how good and that why there’s uncertainty with cost and deal length.
You can’t operate in the “give him the biggest contract at the position because he’s your guy or nothing at all” space. It’s Madden world.
Sorry I missed your reply. The 3 year deal hinges on this “the question is how good and that why there’s uncertainty with cost and deal length.” I addressed that in my post when I said “And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares your uncertainly one way or the other.“. The idea that Schoen/Daboll don’t know for certain one way or the other about Jones I just don’t believe is true. Four years in the league, one year under their management and they didn’t know? Then we have the wrong leadership. We may not know but they do and because of that the 3 year deal doesn’t make sense for the reasons I explained.
Absent the guarantees, it's not a vote of confidence or commitment to the player. It's a bargaining win by the team in exchange for cash upfront.
Team Jones doesn't want a 5 year deal unless at least years 3 and 4 have mechanisms to make it hard for the Giants to cut him and his new cash compensation is pegged to cap inflation.
This. I think both sides are likely on the same page in terms of what tier DJ is in, the whole negotiation will hinge around team or player control. If Team Jones is dug in on these protections that deep into the deal and the Giants are dug in on some kind of early hedge, then that's where I can see the tag coming into play. I don't think this will be about contract/player value which I think is where most fans and the national media (local media is very sharp on this imo) are focused on. If the Giants are genuine in wanting to get a deal done with Jones, then they know exactly what waters they're swimming in and I don't think Team Jones is going to dig in for 2nd tier franchise QB money (Dak and Murray at the time of signing).
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In comment 16027209 uconngiant said:
Quote:
they will offer $112.5 for three years
$35 year one, 37.5 year two, and $40 year three
Just don’t get the three year contracts. Is he the guy or nor. If not then giving a three year $37.5m AAV contract to a guy you don’t believe in is a big mistake . It’s nuts, actually. If he is the guy then only giving him a three year contract and giving him a 2nd bit at the apple in probably two years and certainly three is also a mistake. And if this is based on you not being sure about DJ then I doubt Schoen shares you uncertainly one way or the other.
I asked you yesterday about this - why is black and white the only options? Schoen operates almost exclusively in between, as does any GM. There are tremendous risks with not bringing Jones back, just can’t gloss over that. Jones is 100% a proven starting NFL QB at this point, the question is how good and that why there’s uncertainty with cost and deal length.
You can’t operate in the “give him the biggest contract at the position because he’s your guy or nothing at all” space. It’s Madden world.
Pretty hard to have a new and exciting argument after a few hundred threads and tens of thousands of posts on the same subject....ha ha.
You don’t think there are teams out there that would give DJ a 5 year deal. I think there are a number of them. That’s the reality of the market. DJ, his agent and Joe Schoen all know that. And that flexibility you think is important works against the team if they are committed to him. Top guys at a lot of positions get four and five year deals all the time. They are hardly outliers in the NFL. Roquan Smith got 5/100 but they are going to tell DJ they only want to commit to three. Doesn’t seem likely to me.
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other than the top guys who are the list of QBs that GMs are dying to give 5+ year deals to? It’s a short list. Any GM would love to stay flexible if possible (which isn’t really as much of a need if you have a Mahomes or Allen or Burrow). But 25+ other teams would love 2-3 year deals for their QBs, IMO. Doesn’t mean they don’t believe in them it means they are trying to keep risk low and remain flexible. That’s why the is he or is he not our guy argument doesn’t apply in most cases because the answer is usually yes, but how cheap can we get this?
You don’t think there are teams out there that would give DJ a 5 year deal. I think there are a number of them. That’s the reality of the market. DJ, his agent and Joe Schoen all know that. And that flexibility you think is important works against the team if they are committed to him. Top guys at a lot of positions get four and five year deals all the time. They are hardly outliers in the NFL. Roquan Smith got 5/100 but they are going to tell DJ they only want to commit to three. Doesn’t seem likely to me.
You might be right. You could just as well be wrong. It's a market. And markets don't operate as you suggest. Jones has obvious flaws and comes with risk. He may be too risky at this moment for any team to commit 5 years or the kind of money some are talking about. Just because X player got years or dollars doesn't mean Jones gets it. He has some upside, sure. But we know he is not universally loved, and his game carries significant risk. You don't get to have Daboll as a package with Jones.
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other than the top guys who are the list of QBs that GMs are dying to give 5+ year deals to? It’s a short list. Any GM would love to stay flexible if possible (which isn’t really as much of a need if you have a Mahomes or Allen or Burrow). But 25+ other teams would love 2-3 year deals for their QBs, IMO. Doesn’t mean they don’t believe in them it means they are trying to keep risk low and remain flexible. That’s why the is he or is he not our guy argument doesn’t apply in most cases because the answer is usually yes, but how cheap can we get this?
You don’t think there are teams out there that would give DJ a 5 year deal. I think there are a number of them. That’s the reality of the market. DJ, his agent and Joe Schoen all know that. And that flexibility you think is important works against the team if they are committed to him. Top guys at a lot of positions get four and five year deals all the time. They are hardly outliers in the NFL. Roquan Smith got 5/100 but they are going to tell DJ they only want to commit to three. Doesn’t seem likely to me.
The key is your statement that "Top guys at a lot of positions get four and five year deals all the time". Do you actually think Daniel Jones, DANIEL JOINES, is a "top guy"? C'mon man.
On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.
On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.
Minny was the worst pass D in the league. They also have slow LBs which dramatically opened QB runs for Jones. Adding better WRs will not turn every defense they meet into the Vikings. There is a lot of wishful thinking on this board.
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Because the WRs won on a ton more routes. All year when there was an actual opportunity to make a play or even create one, DJ did a great job in doing so more often than not.
On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.
Minny was the worst pass D in the league. They also have slow LBs which dramatically opened QB runs for Jones. Adding better WRs will not turn every defense they meet into the Vikings. There is a lot of wishful thinking on this board.
I do wonder at what point the light bulb will turn on for you fwith DJ. My guess is you'll need to see him win a Superbowl. It was the same with some for Eli. They just couldn't see the intangibles beforehand.
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In comment 16027505 CornerStone246+17 said:
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Because the WRs won on a ton more routes. All year when there was an actual opportunity to make a play or even create one, DJ did a great job in doing so more often than not.
On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.
Minny was the worst pass D in the league. They also have slow LBs which dramatically opened QB runs for Jones. Adding better WRs will not turn every defense they meet into the Vikings. There is a lot of wishful thinking on this board.
I do wonder at what point the light bulb will turn on for you fwith DJ. My guess is you'll need to see him win a Superbowl. It was the same with some for Eli. They just couldn't see the intangibles beforehand.
Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
I believe the tag option is not in any way on the table. What did I read here the other day. Only two QBs have played on the tag in the last 30 years. DJ isn’t going to be the third. And whether he gets to FA or not that still sets the market. This is your franchise QB. You can’t tag him or force him to take a below market contract. That just is not done.
Agreed on pass pro, but the eye test and yea leaves suggest that’s not the case at WR. Schoen seems very willing to upgrade WR and Sy has made many comments recently about the gap in talent. It’s clearly a big need.
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of course I do, but those teams would be bidding on him in Free Agency and don’t have the tag at their disposal. To an extend the Giants are only competing with themselves since they own the right to tag (multiple times if they want to). Unrestricted Free Agency is a completely different ballgame.
I believe the tag option is not in any way on the table. What did I read here the other day. Only two QBs have played on the tag in the last 30 years. DJ isn’t going to be the third. And whether he gets to FA or not that still sets the market. This is your franchise QB. You can’t tag him or force him to take a below market contract. That just is not done.
Well if they tag him or hold the line on a deal you think is "below market" you have your answer to the question: do the Giants view Jones as a franchise QB?
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of course I do, but those teams would be bidding on him in Free Agency and don’t have the tag at their disposal. To an extend the Giants are only competing with themselves since they own the right to tag (multiple times if they want to). Unrestricted Free Agency is a completely different ballgame.
I believe the tag option is not in any way on the table. What did I read here the other day. Only two QBs have played on the tag in the last 30 years. DJ isn’t going to be the third. And whether he gets to FA or not that still sets the market. This is your franchise QB. You can’t tag him or force him to take a below market contract. That just is not done.
Jones has gone against what history has shown quite a lot so far, not sure it matters. And the threat of the tag will be there until it isn’t (a deal or we let him walk). It’s a massive negotiating tactics that only we have.
I think there’s a solid chance he can be the third. If he’s dead set on a 5 year deal with a ton guaranteed I actually think the odds are he gets tagged.
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In comment 16027521 UConn4523 said:
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of course I do, but those teams would be bidding on him in Free Agency and don’t have the tag at their disposal. To an extend the Giants are only competing with themselves since they own the right to tag (multiple times if they want to). Unrestricted Free Agency is a completely different ballgame.
I believe the tag option is not in any way on the table. What did I read here the other day. Only two QBs have played on the tag in the last 30 years. DJ isn’t going to be the third. And whether he gets to FA or not that still sets the market. This is your franchise QB. You can’t tag him or force him to take a below market contract. That just is not done.
Jones has gone against what history has shown quite a lot so far, not sure it matters. And the threat of the tag will be there until it isn’t (a deal or we let him walk). It’s a massive negotiating tactics that only we have.
I think there’s a solid chance he can be the third. If he’s dead set on a 5 year deal with a ton guaranteed I actually think the odds are he gets tagged.
You do understand that if you tag him and he no shows at even OTAs (much less training camp or half the season) that blows up the franchise and becomes the biggest story in the league. It also probably blows up Schoen as GM. That a negotiating tactic only he has. No GM takes that risk.
As I said before the Tag is there until it isn’t regardless of what you think of it as a tool. If Jones wants to call Schoens bluff I think he will lose.
By the way Connor Hughes from SNY says he will be tagged if a deal isn’t completed, so take that for whatever it’s worth (he’s not the first person to make that claim).
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In
You do understand that if you tag him and he no shows at even OTAs (much less training camp or half the season) that blows up the franchise and becomes the biggest story in the league. It also probably blows up Schoen as GM. That a negotiating tactic only he has. No GM takes that risk.
Hyperbole much? If Daniel Jones is tagged and holds out (which he will NEVER do) it doesn't blow up the franchise. That's laughable.
Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?
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In comment 16027542 UConn4523 said:
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In
You do understand that if you tag him and he no shows at even OTAs (much less training camp or half the season) that blows up the franchise and becomes the biggest story in the league. It also probably blows up Schoen as GM. That a negotiating tactic only he has. No GM takes that risk.
Hyperbole much? If Daniel Jones is tagged and holds out (which he will NEVER do) it doesn't blow up the franchise. That's laughable.
What will never be done is putting your franchise QB on a tag. And I don’t know what you would call having a $32m hit on your salary cap and having no QB but I don’t think it’s too far from blown up. And you know jack about what DJ will NEVER do.
You boys are cute.
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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?
You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.
The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.
Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.
And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.
And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.
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In comment 16027554 BillT said:
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In comment 16027542 UConn4523 said:
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In
You do understand that if you tag him and he no shows at even OTAs (much less training camp or half the season) that blows up the franchise and becomes the biggest story in the league. It also probably blows up Schoen as GM. That a negotiating tactic only he has. No GM takes that risk.
Hyperbole much? If Daniel Jones is tagged and holds out (which he will NEVER do) it doesn't blow up the franchise. That's laughable.
What will never be done is putting your franchise QB on a tag. And I don’t know what you would call having a $32m hit on your salary cap and having no QB but I don’t think it’s too far from blown up. And you know jack about what DJ will NEVER do.
Daniel Jones isn't good enough to hold out.
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In comment 16027528 Producer said:
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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?
You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.
The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.
Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.
And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.
And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.
You are full of shit. You always have been and you continue to be so.
Just who was Jones to throw deep to this year, a guy that cannot catch the ball that hits him in the hands or the guy that is too slow to get open on a deep ball.
Don't bring up Sy or JonC. You conveniently ignore them when they say something contrary to your opinion and you are misquoting them now. I would suggest you go back an read Sy's review of the team. You dismissed him then and you will continue to dismiss him in the future.
I pretty much agree with JonC on most things. He is reasonable and well thought out, unlike your bombastic retorts.
I am done with you and I was stupid to even engage you here.
+1!!!!!!!!
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In comment 16027516 Producer said:
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In comment 16027505 CornerStone246+17 said:
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Because the WRs won on a ton more routes. All year when there was an actual opportunity to make a play or even create one, DJ did a great job in doing so more often than not.
On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.
Minny was the worst pass D in the league. They also have slow LBs which dramatically opened QB runs for Jones. Adding better WRs will not turn every defense they meet into the Vikings. There is a lot of wishful thinking on this board.
I do wonder at what point the light bulb will turn on for you fwith DJ. My guess is you'll need to see him win a Superbowl. It was the same with some for Eli. They just couldn't see the intangibles beforehand.
Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
Your fully 'dug in' with your judgment on Jones. The book is closed. There is nothing else to say at this point as your stance will remain unchanged. What I and others said above is likely the case. You don't see what he has and nothing short of a Super Bowl where he is the MVP will probably convince you otherwise. Eli had a few fans with the same issue before he won the whole thing.
He should take his $32M and thank the Giants.
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In comment 16027572 section125 said:
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In comment 16027528 Producer said:
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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.
What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?
You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.
The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.
Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.
And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.
And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.
You are full of shit. You always have been and you continue to be so.
Just who was Jones to throw deep to this year, a guy that cannot catch the ball that hits him in the hands or the guy that is too slow to get open on a deep ball.
Don't bring up Sy or JonC. You conveniently ignore them when they say something contrary to your opinion and you are misquoting them now. I would suggest you go back an read Sy's review of the team. You dismissed him then and you will continue to dismiss him in the future.
I pretty much agree with JonC on most things. He is reasonable and well thought out, unlike your bombastic retorts.
I am done with you and I was stupid to even engage you here.
More dodging and specious arguments and intellectual cowardice. You got owned. Seeya.
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what does that even mean? You really do just make stuff up. Lots of players haven’t held out because financially it’s a terrible move for them. Are none of them good enough either? Who’s good enough to hold out?
He should take his $32M and thank the Giants.
Cool.
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whatever I reply with won’t matter, so don’t worry about it
the hyperbole in your statement.
You haven’t displayed any ability to have a decent convo without your typical, predictable replies. My reasons aren’t worth mentioning to you. Ever wonder why you get the replies that you so often do on this site? Is it everyone else or maybe just you?
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whatever I reply with won’t matter, so don’t worry about it
the hyperbole in your statement.
You haven’t displayed any ability to have a decent convo without your typical, predictable replies. My reasons aren’t worth mentioning to you. Ever wonder why you get the replies that you so often do on this site? Is it everyone else or maybe just you?
More dodging and specious arguments and intellectual cowardice. You got owned. Seeya.
Wow, I can't think of a better example on this site of the pot calling the kettle black.
Your lack of self awareness is stunning....
On the flip side, DJ is a product of a dumbed down, dink and dunk, offense...and the Giants would be stupid to give a QB, that hasn't thrown for more than 15 TDs in 3 consecutive seasons, a multiyear deal.
I hope they walk away from DJ, but I expect him to get tagged.walkibg away is way better than locking into an average QB that can't do anything against good defenses,or win conference games.
We don’t have the opportunity to go back in time and hire Schoen/Daboll in 2020 to see if the same thing would happen here but I’m fairly confident they won’t be tagging him or giving him a contract if they didn’t think he can throw more than 15 TDs. So bringing it up, and citing a Joe Judge offense couldn’t be more pointless.
We don’t have the opportunity to go back in time and hire Schoen/Daboll in 2020 to see if the same thing would happen here but I’m fairly confident they won’t be tagging him or giving him a contract if they didn’t think he can throw more than 15 TDs. So bringing it up, and citing a Joe Judge offense couldn’t be more pointless.
That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Do you think Schoen/Daboll don’t know if Jones can throw for more than 15 TDs? That’s what I don’t get about this argument. If they think that’s what defines Jones then Jones won’t be our QB anymore.
That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...
It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..
But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...
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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...
It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..
But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...
Regardless of circumstances, you can't commit to a QB for 3-4 years because you "HOPE" he'll make the jump Hurts made.
"What if" you sign another big contract WR, and draft another, and DJ still throws for 15-18 TDs? What if this is peak DJ? Happy you signed him to a multiyear deal?
You like DJ...great. You still can't commit to a QB longterm until he produces TDs and scores points. If you're wrong, it's gonna set the franchise back at least 5 years (3 with DJ, and 2-3 with a new QB). If Schoen is dead set on bringing him back, just tag him and make him earn an extension with real franchise QB numbers.
That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Hurts still bothers me as a passer, but he absolutely showed progress in YR2 (2021). And that was with a receiving corp that was compromised of: rookie DSmith, Reagor, Watkins, Goedert.
From his rookie year, his completion% increased almost 10 percentage points, he passed for 10 more TD passes, and his QBR increased from 33 to 54+. And he ran for nearly 800 yards and 10 rushing TDs.
Frankly, I think the reason Roseman went for AJ Brown was because he was convinced that Hurts was the long-term solution from that YR2 performance.
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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...
It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..
But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...
Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.
Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?
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In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:
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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...
It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..
But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...
Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.
Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?
Not sure why you are giving me "credit" now, as I've made these same points over and over - and over - again. But whatever.
I've said before that he has shown me enough this season to warrant a contract offer. He's checked every box they've asked of him, they don't need another year to figure out what they've got. And of course, the FT would limit their ability to get him the legit weapons he - and this offense -desperately needs. He can use several of course, but one will be a really good start
The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).
Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.
Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.
Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?
Not sure why you are giving me "credit" now, as I've made these same points over and over - and over - again. But whatever.
I've said before that he has shown me enough this season to warrant a contract offer. He's checked every box they've asked of him, they don't need another year to figure out what they've got. And of course, the FT would limit their ability to get him the legit weapons he - and this offense -desperately needs. He can use several of course, but one will be a really good start
The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).
Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.
No limiting anything. If he is worth $32-$25M per year then that is the annual standard figure to put under the cap and let's see what we can do. Don't play the year to year game with moving money around under the cap and dodge the question.
It may mean losing Saquon or Big Leonard in order to put some IOLs/WRs on the roster but that's the salary cap game.
Is DJ worth the squeeze at $35M for 2-3 years or not?
The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).
Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.
It isn't "too much". It's market value. Kirk Cousins made $35m and we all know Jones is better than him. Remamber. people complained about Eli's 2nd contract. QBs get paid and they don't get lowballed by their teams. If anything they get a bit more. That's just the way the NFL works.
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The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).
Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.
It isn't "too much". It's market value. Kirk Cousins made $35m and we all know Jones is better than him. Remamber. people complained about Eli's 2nd contract. QBs get paid and they don't get lowballed by their teams. If anything they get a bit more. That's just the way the NFL works.
How is DJ better than Cousins? That's crazy! In no universe, stat wise, can DJ sniff Cousins, and he's been putting up numbers for years, pre-Jefferson and with 2 different franchises. DJ isn't as good as Cousins, and it's not close. If you're basing that on who won one playoff game, that's silly...Minnesota had the 2nd worst total yard defense in the NFL, lots of QBs played as well, or better, than DJ against the Vikes.
In the NFL, you get paid for production...not feel good stories. DJ has 36 passing TDs in the last 3 years combined. That's not good and doesn't warrant a multiyear deal.
They didn't give him a 5th year, they didn't negotiate with him during the bye, and by all accounts, haven't started a negotiation as of now. Do I think they want to see what DJ can do next year? Yes. Have I seen anything to make me believe they're going to give him a multiyear deal at crazy money? No.
I think DJ gets tagged. Being wrong on a multiyear deal for DJ is a career ender for Schoen...I doubt he wants to bet his career on a QB who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since 2019 (when he was a turnover machine.)
Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
Why do you need to insult people? "fanboys" Does that make you feel important? Superior?
I have reservations on a long term deal - been expressed numerous times.
Question for you - what if Daboll and Schoen are convinced he is the guy that can lead the team to the Super Bowl, but because he is a running QB, the chance of injury is higher than a drop back, pocket passer. What if Schoen wants to protect the team from a career ending injury and wants to get him for 3 years to minimize the loss in case of injury? All you need to do is look around the league at the QBs hurt to see that hedging may be what Schoen is looking at.
Just look at some of the comments in this thread..
"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"
"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."
Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.
It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.
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take your fan hat off for a second. It’s quite possible Schoen and Judge believe he’s taken that jump already. In fact, I’d say that’s likely given that they are in discussions for his next contract.
They didn't give him a 5th year, they didn't negotiate with him during the bye, and by all accounts, haven't started a negotiation as of now. Do I think they want to see what DJ can do next year? Yes. Have I seen anything to make me believe they're going to give him a multiyear deal at crazy money? No.
I think DJ gets tagged. Being wrong on a multiyear deal for DJ is a career ender for Schoen...I doubt he wants to bet his career on a QB who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since 2019 (when he was a turnover machine.)
Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
The 5th year reason is as pointless as the joe judge production (and actually a direct result from it). Gettelman left our cap in shambles and DJ wasn’t good enough yet to warrant it. They just worked with him for a year, that kinda matters a hell of a lot more.
And if you are going to call people fanboys, even people like me who are perfectly fine moving on if that’s what our GM thinks is the best course, don’t expect anyone to converse with you seriously.
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Why do you need to insult people? "fanboys" Does that make you feel important? Superior?
That's rich coming from you. It's your bread and butter.
It's highly controversial in Vikings circles to say it's worked out. They had pretty good teams but no real championship contenders. Is that where we want to go? Because I'll say right now, fuhhgettaboutit.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
Just look at some of the comments in this thread..
"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"
"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."
Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.
It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.
LOL - jones haters continue to ignore facts that don't support their argument.
Fact:
He hasn't had a good - or even a mediocre - pass blocking OL that will give him more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.
Jones haters: "He hasn't thrown the ball deep all year, he sucks!"
Fact:
His WR's are mediocre at best.
Jones haters: "His passing numbers suck, and he only has 15 TD's!"
Fact:
For 2021 and 2022, his HC was Joe fucking Judge, and his OC was Jason fucking Garrett
Jones haters: "elite QB's are supposed to elevate the players around him; his numbers suck, therefore he's a shitty player"
Also Jones haters: "Trevor Lawrence sucked last year because of the HC was awful"
Also Jones haters: "Part of the reason why Russell Wilson sucked this year was the coaching"
There are many more examples, but I'll stop there....
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
christian, you may be right Schoen said that but I just don't see how they do that. First, they decline his option and now want a second "bite at the apple" by franchising him Only if you're using him as a stop gap and that's possible. But, I don't think you can do that and then have him as your franchise QB. I think that burns that bridge.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
I agree, historicals are interesting to follow and are often good benchmarks, but they aren’t gospel. Jones’ entire tenure has been outside of the norm, Giants fans should be used to it by now. Nothing matters more than what happened in 2022 no matter how much people want to live in the past.
No limiting anything. If he is worth $32-$25M per year then that is the annual standard figure to put under the cap and let's see what we can do. Don't play the year to year game with moving money around under the cap and dodge the question.
It may mean losing Saquon or Big Leonard in order to put some IOLs/WRs on the roster but that's the salary cap game.
Is DJ worth the squeeze at $35M for 2-3 years or not?
What in the fuck are you talking about?
Do I need to explain the basics of how the salary cap works? The FT means the hit happens in all one year, so it limits the amount of resources that can be allocated elsewhere. If they sign him to a 3,4 (or 5) year deal, with signing bonuses it can make the first few years very cap friendly, thus allowing to sign other weapons.
Yes, he's "worth the squeeze" for 2-3 years at a 35 per. But again, that's very different from what his salary cap price will be for those 2-3 years.
Sorry you weren't aware how the cap works, I hope this short lesson was educational for you.
Taking advantage of how the salary cap works isn't "dodging the question", it's how most successful teams operate in the most efficient way possible....
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
How many other QB's had to deal with the shit/clown show known as Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett for not one but TWO FUCKING YEARS??
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??
Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...
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Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
How many other QB's had to deal with the shit/clown show known as Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett for not one but TWO FUCKING YEARS??
You need a hug and a Care Bear. On what planet does that have anything to do with what I posted?
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Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??
Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...
Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.
Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.
Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.
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In comment 16027834 christian said:
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Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??
Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...
Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.
Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.
Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.
Those things that Lawrence and Wilson accomplished, Jones throwing 15 TDs and beating the Vikings is better [/s]
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In comment 16027866 speedywheels said:
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In comment 16027834 christian said:
Quote:
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.
I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??
Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...
Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.
Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.
Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.
Those things that Lawrence and Wilson accomplished, Jones throwing 15 TDs and beating the Vikings is better [/s]
Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.
Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.
I'm a Giants fan who thinks Jones ain't it. I've made consistent and logical arguments in support of my position. I don't change my opinion every week. I think the player is the player, unless he clearly demonstrates a new tier of play. As good as the Vikings performance was, the Eagles performance was every bit as bad. Jones is basically the same player he always has been with the same passing deficits. Sorry this offends you.
I don't believe we can win a championship with this QB. Many share the opinion that Jones is not a championship QB. If we sign him for 5 yrs I believe we are in for 5 years of 3rd place finishes and early playoff exits. And we will have wasted close to a decade with a QB who is just ok.
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In comment 16027893
Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.
I'm a Giants fan who thinks Jones ain't it. I've made consistent and logical arguments in support of my position. I don't change my opinion every week. I think the player is the player, unless he clearly demonstrates a new tier of play. As good as the Vikings performance was, the Eagles performance was every bit as bad. Jones is basically the same player he always has been with the same passing deficits. Sorry this offends you.
I don't believe we can win a championship with this QB. Many share the opinion that Jones is not a championship QB. If we sign him for 5 yrs I believe we are in for 5 years of 3rd place finishes and early playoff exits. And we will have wasted close to a decade with a QB who is just ok.
I can tell you based on everything we've seen and heard he won over Daboll and Schoen and almost this entire organization to a man loves the kid and believe in him.
They also have been clear and realize that they haven't provided Daniel with anywhere near a good enough support system consisting of the combination of good scheme, quality WRs and functional pass protecting offensive line. I take this organziations take on DJ much higher than the other opinions out there.
Daboll the new guy and offensive mind has had plenty of tape amd time to breakdown DJ more than anyone of us and seems geniunely all in on him. Thats plenty enough for me to believe my convictions I already had on him have been confirmed.
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Coming off a season where Kyler Murray was 9-5 as a starter, and lost in the Wild Card round -- the Cardinals gave him a 5 year extension. Which technically doesn't even kick in until 2024.
That's commitment. That's saying we want you here for the next 7 years.
Does anyone think the Giants are about to do that with Jones?
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Producer, I agree the contract will tell a story.
On the organization, you kind of get senses of what they think and you piece it together. I see greatness in this kid. I really do. Everyone of the Giants bigtime QBs of the last 40 years went through a 'rite of passage' so to speak before they became great. First Simms and then Eli. Lots amd lots of fans questioning them until they emerged. With DJ he has had just some disgustingly bad components around him. I see him making plays and sometimes special ones in the many fewer opportunies he has been afforded due to usually 2 of the 3 of pass pro, receivers or system being extremely unfavorable or poor.
He has special wiring . He never complains, always fights. DG when they selected him said they were blown away by the way the kid handles adversity. The talent is there too and now that we have a respectable system , it will come out when there are enough adequate or better pieces around him. Hopefully with a good JS offseason, it'll be next year.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
Coming off a season where Kyler Murray was 9-5 as a starter, and lost in the Wild Card round -- the Cardinals gave him a 5 year extension. Which technically doesn't even kick in until 2024.
That's commitment. That's saying we want you here for the next 7 years.
Does anyone think the Giants are about to do that with Jones?
Think it’s possible. Think a 5 year deal is in the cards if they think he’s the guy. Now, maybe they don’t but that’s not what I think they believe.
Coming off a season where Kyler Murray was 9-5 as a starter, and lost in the Wild Card round -- the Cardinals gave him a 5 year extension. Which technically doesn't even kick in until 2024.
That's commitment. That's saying we want you here for the next 7 years.
Does anyone think the Giants are about to do that with Jones?
So true, re: Murray. And that was coming off a playoff meltdown.
In regard to Jones. I think some believe the Giants are in, hook, line and sinker, so they would be unsurprised by 5 years guaranteed. And some of those are asking, why give him anything if JS has any uncertainty. Which may be a set up for, any deal equals faith in Jones.
This is an interesting moment. High drama.
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But lets not use the contract for Cousins to justify anything. Cousins is way overpaid. That doesn't mean Jones needs to be too.
Just look at some of the comments in this thread..
"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"
"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."
Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.
It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.
LOL - jones haters continue to ignore facts that don't support their argument.
Fact:
He hasn't had a good - or even a mediocre - pass blocking OL that will give him more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.
Jones haters: "He hasn't thrown the ball deep all year, he sucks!"
Fact:
His WR's are mediocre at best.
Jones haters: "His passing numbers suck, and he only has 15 TD's!"
Fact:
For 2021 and 2022, his HC was Joe fucking Judge, and his OC was Jason fucking Garrett
Jones haters: "elite QB's are supposed to elevate the players around him; his numbers suck, therefore he's a shitty player"
Also Jones haters: "Trevor Lawrence sucked last year because of the HC was awful"
Also Jones haters: "Part of the reason why Russell Wilson sucked this year was the coaching"
There are many more examples, but I'll stop there....
You don't get 3-4 year contracts because fans "THINK" you'll be good when a QB has all the weapons they think he should have. You produce, and then you get paid.
Let's talk loving the goal posts. Before the season, there was a thread about what DJ needed to do to get an extension. There were a ton of posters who said he needed to throw for 25 or more TDs. Now, he throws for much less than that, but let's psy him anyway and will give excuse after excuse to justify it.
As far as comparisons...DJ can't, and won't, make the throws other QBs make. It's that simple. You hear football people a lot smartwr than you say Jones misses big plays all the time...but you choose to ignore it. Wanna know why DJ doesn't throw TDs...because he misses big plays all the time. Jalen Hurts had a higher air yards per attempt average in year 2 (before Brown) than DJ had in year 4. DJ had a lower AYPA tis year than last, with a worse Oline. It proves Daboll and Kafka made a dink and dunk offense to fit DJs strengths.
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Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
There’s a decent likelihood Jones is a better QB than Cousins. It wasn’t 1 game, although that 1 game was huge when analyzing the two players. But Jones was the better player in 2022. You can keep posting stats if it makes you feel better, and I’ll just post their QBRs and WR/TE corps.
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In comment 16027783 UConn4523 said:
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take your fan hat off for a second. It’s quite possible Schoen and Judge believe he’s taken that jump already. In fact, I’d say that’s likely given that they are in discussions for his next contract.
They didn't give him a 5th year, they didn't negotiate with him during the bye, and by all accounts, haven't started a negotiation as of now. Do I think they want to see what DJ can do next year? Yes. Have I seen anything to make me believe they're going to give him a multiyear deal at crazy money? No.
I think DJ gets tagged. Being wrong on a multiyear deal for DJ is a career ender for Schoen...I doubt he wants to bet his career on a QB who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since 2019 (when he was a turnover machine.)
Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
The 5th year reason is as pointless as the joe judge production (and actually a direct result from it). Gettelman left our cap in shambles and DJ wasn’t good enough yet to warrant it. They just worked with him for a year, that kinda matters a hell of a lot more.
And if you are going to call people fanboys, even people like me who are perfectly fine moving on if that’s what our GM thinks is the best course, don’t expect anyone to converse with you seriously.
DJ wasn't good enough to warrant a 5th year option. He throws 15 TDs in 16 games, and now he's a franchise QB worthy of a 3-4 year contract? I hope that sounds as silly when you're reading it as it does when you say it.
What does the 5th year option have to do with Jones being a better QB than Cousins in the 2022 NFL season, not just 1 game? Try to stay on topic, you are approaching auto ignore status at this point.
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Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
Why do you need to insult people? "fanboys" Does that make you feel important? Superior?
I have reservations on a long term deal - been expressed numerous times.
Question for you - what if Daboll and Schoen are convinced he is the guy that can lead the team to the Super Bowl, but because he is a running QB, the chance of injury is higher than a drop back, pocket passer. What if Schoen wants to protect the team from a career ending injury and wants to get him for 3 years to minimize the loss in case of injury? All you need to do is look around the league at the QBs hurt to see that hedging may be what Schoen is looking at.
I don't see "fanboys" as insulting but I'll use "DJ fans" if it makes you feel better.
You hit the nail on the head. DJ is an average, at best, pocket passer. 200 yards per game passing and less than a TD per game (2022 stats) is terrible, among NFL QBs. His best weapon is his running ability, without it, he's literally a NFL backup statistically.
Injuries should definitely be a major concern...DJ has been hurt and missed games 3 out of 4 years. The more DJ gets hit, the higher the likelyhood of injury. The older he gets and more he gets hit, the less effective his running will be. It definitely should factor into how Schoen negotiates, or moves on.
DJ, in his current state, isn't someone you can count on as a longterm answer. He would need to double his passing numbers and run a lot less. If DJ needs to run 120 times a year to be moderately successful, you can't commit to him longterm.
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But lets not use the contract for Cousins to justify anything. Cousins is way overpaid. That doesn't mean Jones needs to be too.
Just look at some of the comments in this thread..
"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"
"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."
Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.
It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.
LOL - jones haters continue to ignore facts that don't support their argument.
Fact:
He hasn't had a good - or even a mediocre - pass blocking OL that will give him more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.
Jones haters: "He hasn't thrown the ball deep all year, he sucks!"
Fact:
His WR's are mediocre at best.
Jones haters: "His passing numbers suck, and he only has 15 TD's!"
Fact:
For 2021 and 2022, his HC was Joe fucking Judge, and his OC was Jason fucking Garrett
Jones haters: "elite QB's are supposed to elevate the players around him; his numbers suck, therefore he's a shitty player"
Also Jones haters: "Trevor Lawrence sucked last year because of the HC was awful"
Also Jones haters: "Part of the reason why Russell Wilson sucked this year was the coaching"
There are many more examples, but I'll stop there....
You are a tool. What did I say in my post that was not reasonable? I don't hate Jones.
You can continue to spew that Jones has never had receivers and had Joe Judge as a coach and a bad o-line. I am not denying any of those things.
Waiving your pom poms and crying about what has been around him doesn't change anything. He has not produced like a top 10 QB and you have no way of proving he will with better pieces around him.
It is entirely reasonable to be skeptical about giving him a huge contract based on what he may or may not do with better receivers.
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In comment 16027813 Sean said:
Quote:
Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
There’s a decent likelihood Jones is a better QB than Cousins. It wasn’t 1 game, although that 1 game was huge when analyzing the two players. But Jones was the better player in 2022. You can keep posting stats if it makes you feel better, and I’ll just post their QBRs and WR/TE corps.
A playoff win is nice, but neither game against the Vikes was huge statistically when you consider how bad their defense was. DJ had three 300 yard passing games this year...all three came against the 31st and 32nd ranked passing defenses. Weird how your WR/TEs were good enough in those games, isn't it?
Cousins had almost 4600 total yards and 31 TDs, DJ had 3900 and 22 TDs...but DJ was better last year? Do you even believe the stuff you say?
DJ wasn't better last year and will most likely never put up numbers comparative to Cousins.
What does the 5th year option have to do with Jones being a better QB than Cousins in the 2022 NFL season, not just 1 game? Try to stay on topic, you are approaching auto ignore status at this point.
Actually, only you have...and you said this...
"The 5th year reason is as pointless as the joe judge production (and actually a direct result from it). Gettelman left our cap in shambles and DJ wasn’t good enough yet to warrant it."
So I have a poor interpretation, when even you admit DJ wasn't good enough? Seriously, do you ever make a good point?
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In comment 16027981 GMen72 said:
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In comment 16027813 Sean said:
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Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
There’s a decent likelihood Jones is a better QB than Cousins. It wasn’t 1 game, although that 1 game was huge when analyzing the two players. But Jones was the better player in 2022. You can keep posting stats if it makes you feel better, and I’ll just post their QBRs and WR/TE corps.
A playoff win is nice, but neither game against the Vikes was huge statistically when you consider how bad their defense was. DJ had three 300 yard passing games this year...all three came against the 31st and 32nd ranked passing defenses. Weird how your WR/TEs were good enough in those games, isn't it?
Cousins had almost 4600 total yards and 31 TDs, DJ had 3900 and 22 TDs...but DJ was better last year? Do you even believe the stuff you say?
DJ wasn't better last year and will most likely never put up numbers comparative to Cousins.
How do DJ and Cousins numbers look if they switched places? Drastically different I promise you that. Cousins does a whole lot less than DJ did if he was stuck with our offensive players. DJ probably does equal or better than Cousins did.
You are a tool. What did I say in my post that was not reasonable? I don't hate Jones.
You can continue to spew that Jones has never had receivers and had Joe Judge as a coach and a bad o-line. I am not denying any of those things.
Waiving your pom poms and crying about what has been around him doesn't change anything. He has not produced like a top 10 QB and you have no way of proving he will with better pieces around him.
It is entirely reasonable to be skeptical about giving him a huge contract based on what he may or may not do with better receivers.
Are you intentionally being this stupid, or does it come naturally?
How the fuck can he be a top 10 QB in 2020 and 2021 given the facts i presented.
How could ANYONE be a top 10 QB??
PS - based on QBR, he was a top 10 QB this year. Or are you going to be like bw in dc and downplay that rating system because it fucks with your narrative?
🙄
A playoff win is nice, but neither game against the Vikes was huge statistically when you consider how bad their defense was.
LOL, here is the “but he played a bad defense!” argument.
Sigh….
Justin Hebert had 6 wins against the following terrible teams: DEN, LV, HOU, ATL, CLE and AZ. Do those game diminish Hebert’ performance, because they all suck so bad? If jones gets diminished for his playoff performance; then it’s only right the same thing is done to Hebert.
He also lost to TEN, scoring only 14 points. At home no less! Jones beat that same team. On the road. Using your warped logic, shouldn’t Hebert get dinged and Jones get credit for that?
Christ, trying to reason with people like you is so exhausting.
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You are a tool. What did I say in my post that was not reasonable? I don't hate Jones.
You can continue to spew that Jones has never had receivers and had Joe Judge as a coach and a bad o-line. I am not denying any of those things.
Waiving your pom poms and crying about what has been around him doesn't change anything. He has not produced like a top 10 QB and you have no way of proving he will with better pieces around him.
It is entirely reasonable to be skeptical about giving him a huge contract based on what he may or may not do with better receivers.
Are you intentionally being this stupid, or does it come naturally?
How the fuck can he be a top 10 QB in 2020 and 2021 given the facts i presented.
How could ANYONE be a top 10 QB??
PS - based on QBR, he was a top 10 QB this year. Or are you going to be like bw in dc and downplay that rating system because it fucks with your narrative?
🙄
Dumbass. I don't have a narrative. Why are you not able to comprehend my point? I agree with your comments about the situation he has been in. That has nothing to do with what I am saying.
My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that. I don't care about the QBR. His running ability is what got him there, and he is a great runner. That is his best asset. I don't hate Jones and I hope he does blossom into a great quarterback.
I want to see him with better receivers. But paying him a long term, very lucrative contract based on what you think will happen with a better team around him is reckless. I have stated that the best option is to tag him and make him show that he deserves that massive extension.
You have tossed a 5 year, $200M contract as what he should get. So what you are saying is that Jones is worth almost as much as Patrick Mahomes. That is nonsense based on what he has done in his NFL career. Regardless of the circumstances he has been in.You are so arrogant in your conviction about Jones that you are unable to have a resonable, warranted discussion and call people who don't agree with you stupid. Stop being a fucking asshole.
My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that.
When in his career to this point has he had the quality of talent around him that would've given him the chance to prove he was capable of being a top 10 QB?
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No limiting anything. If he is worth $32-$25M per year then that is the annual standard figure to put under the cap and let's see what we can do. Don't play the year to year game with moving money around under the cap and dodge the question.
It may mean losing Saquon or Big Leonard in order to put some IOLs/WRs on the roster but that's the salary cap game.
Is DJ worth the squeeze at $35M for 2-3 years or not?
What in the fuck are you talking about?
Do I need to explain the basics of how the salary cap works? The FT means the hit happens in all one year, so it limits the amount of resources that can be allocated elsewhere. If they sign him to a 3,4 (or 5) year deal, with signing bonuses it can make the first few years very cap friendly, thus allowing to sign other weapons.
Yes, he's "worth the squeeze" for 2-3 years at a 35 per. But again, that's very different from what his salary cap price will be for those 2-3 years.
Sorry you weren't aware how the cap works, I hope this short lesson was educational for you.
Taking advantage of how the salary cap works isn't "dodging the question", it's how most successful teams operate in the most efficient way possible....
You really can't follow this line of thinking and opine on paying Jones a much high salary without the built in excuses?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Yes, you need a Care Bear as noted above earlier.
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multiple people have called out your very poor interpretation of the 5th year option not being exercised yet here you are still citing it like it’s some silver bullet. We’ve all given you several reasons why that occurred, you ignore it everything time.
What does the 5th year option have to do with Jones being a better QB than Cousins in the 2022 NFL season, not just 1 game? Try to stay on topic, you are approaching auto ignore status at this point.
Actually, only you have...and you said this...
"The 5th year reason is as pointless as the joe judge production (and actually a direct result from it). Gettelman left our cap in shambles and DJ wasn’t good enough yet to warrant it."
So I have a poor interpretation, when even you admit DJ wasn't good enough? Seriously, do you ever make a good point?
You listed all the reasons why the Giants won’t want to sign Jones to a long term deal. My response was that not picking up the 5th year option was the correct move to make at the time but completely irrelevant to how Schoen now views Jones. Ditto for his performance under Judge. You are downplaying 2022 so much it’s like it didn’t even happen. You are doing what a lot of people on this site do - pump up what supports your argument and ignore what doesn’t.
As for my Jones/Cousins comment I’m 100% serious that Jones performed better than him this year and was the more valuable player. Not just in the playoff game but the season. Cousins had better stats than a bunch of QBs I think performed better than him this year, in fact.
That said, the Vikings offense asks a tremendous amount more of Cousins. Cousins averaged close to 10 more attempts per game, had 1800 more intended air yards, and was hit 30 more times (most in the league).
I'm not sure either guy would do as well if they swappped situations. I don't think Cousins has the wheels to play the style of ball the Giants do. And I don't think Jones has the pocket presence and ability to hold on until the last second like Cousins does.
That said, the Vikings offense asks a tremendous amount more of Cousins. Cousins averaged close to 10 more attempts per game, had 1800 more intended air yards, and was hit 30 more times (most in the league).
I'm not sure either guy would do as well if they swappped situations. I don't think Cousins has the wheels to play the style of ball the Giants do. And I don't think Jones has the pocket presence and ability to hold on until the last second like Cousins does.
This is quite fair.
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That's cool. I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't call you names. I don't think we know what BD and JS think. Whether they believe in him or not the statements may look exactly the same. HCs and GMs rarely bash their QB.
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Producer, I agree the contract will tell a story.
On the organization, you kind of get senses of what they think and you piece it together. I see greatness in this kid. I really do. Everyone of the Giants bigtime QBs of the last 40 years went through a 'rite of passage' so to speak before they became great. First Simms and then Eli. Lots amd lots of fans questioning them until they emerged. With DJ he has had just some disgustingly bad components around him. I see him making plays and sometimes special ones in the many fewer opportunies he has been afforded due to usually 2 of the 3 of pass pro, receivers or system being extremely unfavorable or poor.
He has special wiring . He never complains, always fights. DG when they selected him said they were blown away by the way the kid handles adversity. The talent is there too and now that we have a respectable system , it will come out when there are enough adequate or better pieces around him. Hopefully with a good JS offseason, it'll be next year.
Sorry, I must have missed this last night. I really do not see these special qualities, other than he runs well into the open field and once there he is getting better weaving through traffic.
I see a QB hampered by some severe limitations in the passing game. There are a few things he does well. He's gotten much better rolling right and throwing on the run. He does a better job looking downfield amid pressure. He is accurate and shows nice zip on intermediate crossers. These are good things. I have listed other qualities I think are deficits ad nauseum and I'll spare you a list here, but I think they outweigh the good.
I'm not as enthused by this "special wiring", doesn't complain, seems tough stuff. A lot of QBs have this makeup, good, bad and in between, it's usually part of the job, and there are great QBs like AR who seem not to have these qualities, and they're fantastic because of their natural talent.
Finally, I don't see the comparisons to Simms and Eli. Eli was a great passer and showed it early on. I don't think you can assume Jones will ascend to greatness because he has been criticized, like Eli.
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My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that.
When in his career to this point has he had the quality of talent around him that would've given him the chance to prove he was capable of being a top 10 QB?
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am not paying him for what he may or may not be. I am paying him for what he has shown to be. That is why the tag is the best option. If he proves to be a top 10 QB, that is great for all of us. But if we lock into a long term contract with him and he flops, we are fucked.
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In comment 16027966 Producer said:
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That's cool. I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't call you names. I don't think we know what BD and JS think. Whether they believe in him or not the statements may look exactly the same. HCs and GMs rarely bash their QB.
I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
Producer, I agree the contract will tell a story.
On the organization, you kind of get senses of what they think and you piece it together. I see greatness in this kid. I really do. Everyone of the Giants bigtime QBs of the last 40 years went through a 'rite of passage' so to speak before they became great. First Simms and then Eli. Lots amd lots of fans questioning them until they emerged. With DJ he has had just some disgustingly bad components around him. I see him making plays and sometimes special ones in the many fewer opportunies he has been afforded due to usually 2 of the 3 of pass pro, receivers or system being extremely unfavorable or poor.
He has special wiring . He never complains, always fights. DG when they selected him said they were blown away by the way the kid handles adversity. The talent is there too and now that we have a respectable system , it will come out when there are enough adequate or better pieces around him. Hopefully with a good JS offseason, it'll be next year.
Sorry, I must have missed this last night. I really do not see these special qualities, other than he runs well into the open field and once there he is getting better weaving through traffic.
I see a QB hampered by some severe limitations in the passing game. There are a few things he does well. He's gotten much better rolling right and throwing on the run. He does a better job looking downfield amid pressure. He is accurate and shows nice zip on intermediate crossers. These are good things. I have listed other qualities I think are deficits ad nauseum and I'll spare you a list here, but I think they outweigh the good.
I'm not as enthused by this "special wiring", doesn't complain, seems tough stuff. A lot of QBs have this makeup, good, bad and in between, it's usually part of the job, and there are great QBs like AR who seem not to have these qualities, and they're fantastic because of their natural talent.
Finally, I don't see the comparisons to Simms and Eli. Eli was a great passer and showed it early on. I don't think you can assume Jones will ascend to greatness because he has been criticized, like Eli.
Producer its obvious at this point you don't see this the same way that I or many of the other Jones believers do..and that's cool. Let me just say this, I am extremely confident its going to show up where the intangibles become clearly tangible bc he will finally have a landing strip for the plane i.e a support system that allows you to see his talent on full display.
I also believe Daboll is all in on DJ and has fully endorsed bringing him back. The upcoming contract will reflect this too. I think the Minny game will be more the norm when players get open more often and that will happen with better players and better pass pro plain and simple.
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In comment 16028089 NYG07 said:
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My point is that it is very risk to pay a quarterback that has not shown top 10 production. You are stating it as absolute fact that with better talent around him he will produce like a top 10 QB. Despite that fact that thus far in his career he has not given us evidence of that.
When in his career to this point has he had the quality of talent around him that would've given him the chance to prove he was capable of being a top 10 QB?
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am not paying him for what he may or may not be. I am paying him for what he has shown to be. That is why the tag is the best option. If he proves to be a top 10 QB, that is great for all of us. But if we lock into a long term contract with him and he flops, we are fucked.
There is a level of projection and reading in between the lines if you will with NFL players. Thats the essence of the draft and even FA to a point too. Teams will and have paid based on looking at a guy and saying his skill set will produce X in the right system. Daboll had a full yuear to evaluate this
Phil Simms and Eli Manning came into the NFL with accolades and accomplishments. Everyone recognized their talent and potential because they excelled at their level. It was easier to say 'Eli will be fine' because we've seen him be excellent.
Jones was an unknown when he was drafted with no track record of success. No one here has any idea if Jones' peak is this or if he has some other level to reach. We would all be projecting and guessing.
There is no risk free way of locking up DJ. You cannot throw completions, TD or otherwise to non-existent talent. You cannot have a deep downfield game when your RT has already lost, just 1 second into the play and your RG insists on introducing you to his bestie DT upclose and personal.
Meanwhile, there is no risk free way of letting DJ go. The intelligence, work ethic, and basic level of physical ability make it more than just a slim possibility that this guy becomes an unquestionable top QB. Hard for a GM survive letting him go unless an almost equal good replacement can be secured in a minimal timeframe. In short, GM does not have the luxury of an extended development and rebuild.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning came into the NFL with accolades and accomplishments. Everyone recognized their talent and potential because they excelled at their level. It was easier to say 'Eli will be fine' because we've seen him be excellent.
Jones was an unknown when he was drafted with no track record of success. No one here has any idea if Jones' peak is this or if he has some other level to reach. We would all be projecting and guessing.
Are you serious that Simms came into the NFL with accolades, accomplishments, and excelled at his level?
Yes, Bill Walsh liked him but in the third round. Even Simms had quotes of being an unknown. Obviously it was a much different era but Simms’ senior year and career numbers do not spell out accomplishments and excelling at his level.
Have you seen the video of him getting drafted? Not too different than the reaction to Jones’ selection.
I love Simms as much as I love Eli and I’m lukewarm on Jones. But at least be accurate when describing Simms coming into the NFL. Much different than Eli and probably much closer to that of Jones.
Jones was a productive offensive weapon in 2022 with no real elite talent at WR or TE. His OL was average, if we're being kind. HE had the big time RB. The Giants offense finished right around average. Jones and Barkley (and coaching of course) were the biggest reasons why the offense wasn't bad.
I don't care about 30 TDs. I care about pts scored. If Jones throws 30 TDs next season but the offense fails to close games out like it did in 2022, we won't care. We will want better play from the QB.
Pts scored. 30 tds can correlate to pts scored and in many cases will, but it's not everything. Jones didn't even craxk 20 passing TDs yet the offense scored an average number of pts.
Running games matter. Build around Barkley and DJ's legs. Add to the OL. Add pass catching talent. Jones is part of the solution, evidenced by 2022.
Jones And Barkley impact how defenses play against the Giants offense. They geared up to stop the ground game yet those two still shredded teams on many occasions. BUILD on that. You add a talented young WR to the mix and a better interior OL, Jones will feast. Barkley will feast.
Jones was a productive offensive weapon in 2022 with no real elite talent at WR or TE. His OL was average, if we're being kind. HE had the big time RB. The Giants offense finished right around average. Jones and Barkley (and coaching of course) were the biggest reasons why the offense wasn't bad.
I don't care about 30 TDs. I care about pts scored. If Jones throws 30 TDs next season but the offense fails to close games out like it did in 2022, we won't care. We will want better play from the QB.
Pts scored. 30 tds can correlate to pts scored and in many cases will, but it's not everything. Jones didn't even craxk 20 passing TDs yet the offense scored an average number of pts.
Running games matter. Build around Barkley and DJ's legs. Add to the OL. Add pass catching talent. Jones is part of the solution, evidenced by 2022.
Winning close games is random. Production is more important to me than close wins or comeback wins because it's consistent from year to year. It's like in baseball, do you wany game winning hits or do you want OPS?
Close wins are a noisy metric.
So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Then why did you say it?
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So we should just give him a contract like he is a top 10 QB? Despite the fact that we don't know that he can produce like one? This point means nothing to me and has nothing to do with what I am saying.
Then why did you say it?
Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
I'm dealing with the hypothetical you presented. The pro-DJ argument is that, given what he accomplished with limited talent surrounding him, he'll do even better with better talent around him.
You say, "There's no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him."
To which I ask, "When has he ever had that better talent around him?"
Leading you to accuse me of asking you to defend an argument you never made, which I literally quoted you making.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
Your measurement is exactly what I stated above - an aggregate. That’s flawed/not what matters. Why would I care about the league aggregate when all that matters to me is how the Giants perform in close games? When it’s crunch time is our offense closing out games or not? And why are or aren’t they? I don’t need science or a math formula for that.
The data comes into play when working on how to optimize personnel, play alls, etc but I certainly wouldn’t classify any of it as random. Random is the weather, or a bad call, or a bad bounce, or a headset malfunction.
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In comment 16028753 UConn4523 said:
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
Well, I believe in science and math, which has shown in baseball for sure, by Bill James 35 years ago, and recently in football as well, that there is no correlation from season to season in close game deviations from Pythagorean win pct.
You are welcome to insist that you have a better idea, because of a gut feeling, but it's not backed by the data.
Your measurement is exactly what I stated above - an aggregate. That’s flawed/not what matters. Why would I care about the league aggregate when all that matters to me is how the Giants perform in close games? When it’s crunch time is our offense closing out games or not? And why are or aren’t they? I don’t need science or a math formula for that.
The data comes into play when working on how to optimize personnel, play alls, etc but I certainly wouldn’t classify any of it as random. Random is the weather, or a bad call, or a bad bounce, or a headset malfunction.
Every analysis I'm aware of pertains to team deviations. It is a truism that good teams win close games. Bill James showed that was false. Good teams win lopsided contests. And teams that won a high percentage of close games were mainly lucky, even though the fan and media narrative was that those teams were "clutch".
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In comment 16028014 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 16027981 GMen72 said:
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In comment 16027813 Sean said:
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Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
One game is a career? Jones wins one game and is overall a better QB? You can't be serious. Cousins has thrown for 25 TDs for 8 straight years...DJ has never thrown for 25 TDs? They're not even comparable as passing QBs. Cousins has thrown for 4000 yards 7 times, Jones has never thrown for 3300? Just stop! DJ isn't Cousins and has no business being paid like Cousins...one win doesn't change that!
There’s a decent likelihood Jones is a better QB than Cousins. It wasn’t 1 game, although that 1 game was huge when analyzing the two players. But Jones was the better player in 2022. You can keep posting stats if it makes you feel better, and I’ll just post their QBRs and WR/TE corps.
A playoff win is nice, but neither game against the Vikes was huge statistically when you consider how bad their defense was. DJ had three 300 yard passing games this year...all three came against the 31st and 32nd ranked passing defenses. Weird how your WR/TEs were good enough in those games, isn't it?
Cousins had almost 4600 total yards and 31 TDs, DJ had 3900 and 22 TDs...but DJ was better last year? Do you even believe the stuff you say?
DJ wasn't better last year and will most likely never put up numbers comparative to Cousins.
How do DJ and Cousins numbers look if they switched places? Drastically different I promise you that. Cousins does a whole lot less than DJ did if he was stuck with our offensive players. DJ probably does equal or better than Cousins did.
You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
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In comment 16028970 GMen72 said:
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
Ha, you are another one that talks crap and acts like it is fact and everyone else is wrong.
BTW, guessing and surmising is the purpose of these threads. It is people talking shit about shit. Yes, that is what this is.
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
Of course, but like I said I don’t think it’s random. What were the scenarios? Who had the ball last? How many bad calls? I’d know the answer to those questions if I watched all 17 of their games.
Many NFL games come down to the 4th QTR especially division games. It where everything is magnified and QB is one piece of many different things to consider.
It’s pretty clear we are talking about two different things. I agree that the large sample size of data suggests close games are “random” but that’s at the aggregate. Do you think Schoen and Daboll think their close games are random? I sure as hell don’t and that’s what I’m talking about.
Every year the playoff turnover is what 40%? I believe that’s what it was before the addition of an extra game. Season to season it seems random but when you independently analyze each team it becomes quite clear why the teams ended up where they did.
Many NFL games come down to the 4th QTR especially division games. It where everything is magnified and QB is one piece of many different things to consider.
Correct. You zoom out and ignore the why and just look at results, sure, it’s random. But what good is that and why should anyone care about that? If you arent one of the 4/5 teams that’s out scoring your opponent la by a big margin you are living in the realm of close 4th quarter games and that’s where QBs, coaches, etc their mark. The Jets aren’t unlucky to lose their close games, their QB stinks.
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In comment 16028985 section125 said:
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In comment 16028970 GMen72 said:
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You actually CAN'T promise that. You're basing your entire argument on hopes and prayers. You have nothing factual to back up your point. Cousins is a true pocket passer that challenges defenses down the field. DJ plays in a dink and dunk, run heavy, offense designed so he won't turn the ball over. If the Vikes had DJ, Jefferson would have to start running nothing but WR screens and 3 yard crossing routes.
Nobody can promise anything, but I'd bet the premise is correct that swapping Jones and Cousins would favor Jones significantly. Watching Cousins just throw balls up toward Jefferson and Hockenson when under duress shows a lot of Cousins completions are chuck and ducks...FWIW
"Bet on a premise"...LOL!
You guys just say shit to say shit. Can't use facts to make DJ a great NFL QB...let's use promises and bets on a premise. Ha!
Ha, you are another one that talks crap and acts like it is fact and everyone else is wrong.
BTW, guessing and surmising is the purpose of these threads. It is people talking shit about shit. Yes, that is what this is.
I use actual stats (DJ doesn't throw TDs, Minnesota sucks on defense) to back up my points...you use premises and feelings to back up yours.
"DJ will be better with better weapons." Ok...how much better? Is he Carr? Is he Dak? Is he Burrow? What if he isn't better. Remember the rallying cry for Darnold? He went to Carolina, got weapons he didn't have with the Jets...and still sucked. Carr got Adams...was he better?
Bottom line... you're guessing and hoping. I can use actual stats to prove DJ isn't that good now, is in a dink and dunk offense, doesn't throw the ball downfield, and will have to completely change who he is (a checkdown first QB) to be successful with more weapons.
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Seriously? Did you actually read my post? Or did you just want to pile on excuses? He has not earned the kind of contract that is commensurate with a top 10 QB. It is simple as that.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. I want to SEE IT before committing that kind of money. This is not controversial.
I'm dealing with the hypothetical you presented. The pro-DJ argument is that, given what he accomplished with limited talent surrounding him, he'll do even better with better talent around him.
You say, "There's no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him."
To which I ask, "When has he ever had that better talent around him?"
Leading you to accuse me of asking you to defend an argument you never made, which I literally quoted you making.
No. My claim wasn't that there is no evidence of DJ ever playing better with better talent around him. My claim was that DJ has never produced like a top 10 quarterback in his 4 years in the NFL. I understand the circumstances he has had. Just point blank that he hasn't done it.
I am fully aware of the pro-DJ argument that he'll do even better with better talent around him. But this has not happened, so you are just projecting what you think is going to happen.
If the Giants trade for Tee Higgins, draft a receiver and beef up the interior line, is DJ going to throw for 4,500 yards and 35 touchdowns next year? If so, yes, I am all for the 5 year deal. But none of us know, so paying him a massive contract is very risky. UCONN, I am aware that not every QB with a top 10 contract is worth it. I don't want DJ added to that list.
That is all I am saying. I don't hate Jones. I am not saying it is impossible he does take a huge jump. I hope he does. But I haven't seen anything personally to indicate that will happen. Which is why I want them to tag him, put better pieces around him, and let him show us. They can make moves with the cap to fit the tag with extending Leo and Adoree, cutting Golladay, etc.
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
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maybe as an aggregate but team to team it’s fairly easy to see why they are or are not winning close games.
There are two recent examples to look at here.
The Minnesota Vikings in 2022 set an NFL record for winning close games (11-0). In 2021 they went 6-8 in the same situation. No one respected the vikings in 2022. The Giants openly salivated at playing them again.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/12/05/the-vikings-are-9-0-in-one-score-games-and-thats-an-nfl-record/
the 2021 Titans went 6-1 in once score games, then went 5-6 in 2021 in the same situation
I believe the Raiders were 7-2 in one score games in 2021.
This year, that got flipped to 4-9. And four of those games made it to OT.
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
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In comment 16029118 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
Agree on Philly but I could have used another team as well. As you know, the eye test argument probably can be used by both camps still.
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In comment 16029334 chick310 said:
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In comment 16029118 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16029116 Carl in CT said:
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It’s leading you team to victory! Period!!! And he basically did it the whole year himself! What other qb can say that? Enough said!
Don’t bother, it’s a waste of time. Truly. We have the eye test. The results. And, all that was accomplished with limited talent compared to the teams with elite receivers. He done pretty good. You know it. I know it. Many others know it. Most importantly, Dabes knows it. 😎
We have the Eye Test?
I guess eyes view things differently in Minnesota and Indy than say Philadelphia.
Oh come on..You know damn well I was referring to watching his growth all year long under the aegis of Daboll, Kafka..
Philly? What teams/QBs haven’t they pummeled this year? A few at best
Agree on Philly but I could have used another team as well. As you know, the eye test argument probably can be used by both camps still.
Ok..In my camp, at worst, DJ is middle of the pack. At best, near top 10..I see him improving further next season. I’m as sure of that as I was before the season started when they first hired Daboll..:)
No worries. He will..😎
The difference in Tua
The difference in Lawrence
From one year to the next when they got a #1 WR or at least a substantial upgrade to their receiving core. The rise in their level of play was substancial. It's more than coincidence.
If Jones could do what he did with very little which was basically maximize what he was given Jones ceiling will be tremendous when he is given much more.
Personally I'm not capping him at top 10 but top 5 is certainly not out of the question if he has anything comparable to what most of the top QBs have right now.
Quote:
Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
Quote:
In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
Quote:
Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
Quote:
In comment 16029347 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
Quote:
Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
Then maybe I should pro-rate this a bit higher:
4,425 yards with 34 TDs
Quote:
In comment 16029353 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 16029347 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16029345 chick310 said:
Quote:
Jones had better improve next season since he will be costing the team about 5X more than he did this year.
No worries. He will..😎
For $30M plus would think something like this works. I took down his rushing somewhat since expect him to be leading with his arm more at that pricetag:
17 games - 4,200 passing yards with 30 TDs and 11 Ints; 400 rushing yards with 4 TDs
The tag that they might use is what, around $32 mill? Here’s my guess: No idea about guarantees, but they’ll want 40, we’ll offer 35 and they’ll settle around 37.5 for 4 years, possibly 5 with opt out after 4?
Then maybe I should pro-rate this a bit higher:
4,425 yards with 34 TDs
Yeah that works. That is what he should be producing if we are paying him only $7.5M less than Patrick Mahomes per year.
Tall order. Regardless of what receivers we put around him.