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"The Giants will not overcommit to Jones or Barkley"

gidiefor : Mod : 2/7/2023 7:34 am
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Part of an NFL Offseason Predictions Article in the Athletic with 5 Prections:

4. Prediction: The Giants will not overcommit to Daniel Jones or Saquon Barkley, giving themselves flexibility to draft a quarterback in 2024.

I’m banking on the Giants signing both players for less than the franchise-tag values at their positions.

Under this scenario, the team would use the franchise or transition tag to help leverage a workable multi-year deal with Barkley before free agency.

At quarterback, the Giants would offer Jones a shorter-term deal at less than the $32 million annual average associated with the franchise tag. The team would be betting on Daboll’s ability to get more from a cheaper free-agent quarterback (or a rookie) if Jones thought he could find a better situation elsewhere.

The hope would be that Jones might value Daboll’s role in his development sufficiently to accept such a deal.

It all sounds so easy, but the Giants face a balancing act as they seek to reward Jones and Barkley for strong seasons while maintaining long-term flexibility.

“For a team that is just getting out of cap trouble, they would be wise to slow-play it, but it is really hard to slow-play two guys,” another exec said. “When you are setting up a program, you want to send the right message to your players, to your coaches. The message is almost as important as the dollars.”

- more linked below - Prediction 4 continues comparing the Giants situation with Barkley to the Rams Situation with RB Todd Gurley in 2017

NFL offseason predictions, from Aaron Rodgers to Derek Carr: Sando’s Pick Six - ( New Window )
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ looked so good vs Minny  
Producer : 2/8/2023 1:21 pm : link
In comment 16027572 section125 said:
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In comment 16027528 Producer said:


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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.



What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?


You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.

The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.

Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.

And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.

And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: BillT  
Producer : 2/8/2023 1:26 pm : link
In comment 16027583 BillT said:
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In comment 16027571 Producer said:


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In comment 16027554 BillT said:


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In comment 16027542 UConn4523 said:


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In

You do understand that if you tag him and he no shows at even OTAs (much less training camp or half the season) that blows up the franchise and becomes the biggest story in the league. It also probably blows up Schoen as GM. That a negotiating tactic only he has. No GM takes that risk.



Hyperbole much? If Daniel Jones is tagged and holds out (which he will NEVER do) it doesn't blow up the franchise. That's laughable.


What will never be done is putting your franchise QB on a tag. And I don’t know what you would call having a $32m hit on your salary cap and having no QB but I don’t think it’s too far from blown up. And you know jack about what DJ will NEVER do.


Daniel Jones isn't good enough to hold out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ looked so good vs Minny  
section125 : 2/8/2023 1:32 pm : link
In comment 16027603 Producer said:
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In comment 16027572 section125 said:


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In comment 16027528 Producer said:


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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.



What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?



You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.

The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.

Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.

And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.

And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.


You are full of shit. You always have been and you continue to be so.
Just who was Jones to throw deep to this year, a guy that cannot catch the ball that hits him in the hands or the guy that is too slow to get open on a deep ball.

Don't bring up Sy or JonC. You conveniently ignore them when they say something contrary to your opinion and you are misquoting them now. I would suggest you go back an read Sy's review of the team. You dismissed him then and you will continue to dismiss him in the future.
I pretty much agree with JonC on most things. He is reasonable and well thought out, unlike your bombastic retorts.

I am done with you and I was stupid to even engage you here.
He isn’t good enough to hold out?  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 1:37 pm : link
what does that even mean? You really do just make stuff up. Lots of players haven’t held out because financially it’s a terrible move for them. Are none of them good enough either? Who’s good enough to hold out?
RE: ...  
.McL. : 2/8/2023 1:44 pm : link
In comment 16027529 christian said:
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The biggest area to address is pass protection -- whether Jones or someone else is QB. Way too much is made of the pass catchers, who performed well despite being backups.

+1!!!!!!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ looked so good vs Minny  
CornerStone246+17 : 2/8/2023 1:54 pm : link
In comment 16027528 Producer said:
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In comment 16027523 CornerStone246+17 said:


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In comment 16027516 Producer said:


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In comment 16027505 CornerStone246+17 said:


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Because the WRs won on a ton more routes. All year when there was an actual opportunity to make a play or even create one, DJ did a great job in doing so more often than not.

On that note, If NYG finally gets better receivers there will be many more opportunities to make plays even against better defenses.



Minny was the worst pass D in the league. They also have slow LBs which dramatically opened QB runs for Jones. Adding better WRs will not turn every defense they meet into the Vikings. There is a lot of wishful thinking on this board.



I do wonder at what point the light bulb will turn on for you fwith DJ. My guess is you'll need to see him win a Superbowl. It was the same with some for Eli. They just couldn't see the intangibles beforehand.



Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.


Your fully 'dug in' with your judgment on Jones. The book is closed. There is nothing else to say at this point as your stance will remain unchanged. What I and others said above is likely the case. You don't see what he has and nothing short of a Super Bowl where he is the MVP will probably convince you otherwise. Eli had a few fans with the same issue before he won the whole thing.
Thanks for confirming  
HomerJones45 : 2/8/2023 2:11 pm : link
Quote:
whatever I reply with won’t matter, so don’t worry about it
the hyperbole in your statement.
RE: He isn’t good enough to hold out?  
Producer : 2/8/2023 2:18 pm : link
In comment 16027620 UConn4523 said:
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what does that even mean? You really do just make stuff up. Lots of players haven’t held out because financially it’s a terrible move for them. Are none of them good enough either? Who’s good enough to hold out?


He should take his $32M and thank the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ looked so good vs Minny  
Producer : 2/8/2023 2:19 pm : link
In comment 16027615 section125 said:
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In comment 16027603 Producer said:


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In comment 16027572 section125 said:


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In comment 16027528 Producer said:


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Jones could not consistently perform in a vertical passing attack even though he had two offensive gurus guiding him. Imagine that. You're guessing he will develop this trait. I am guessing no. He will not become a different QB.



What are you talking about? 1st - he was what(?) #1 in his rookie year in deep ball accuracy. 2nd - And he wasn't asked to throw deep last year..
So as usual, you are spewing complete BS. Why do you feel the need to just spout stuff that is either irrelevant or just false?



You continue to flaunt your ignorance of numbers.

The deep ball number you keep pumping is noisy garbage, and it was 2020 not 2019. It was based on a tiny sample of throws and measuees comp pct. It doesn't make Jones the "best deep ball thrower" anything. And it's noisy because the next year Jones was near the bottom.

Using that number to assert Jones is the best deep ball thrower is a lazy take. And you keep repeating it because you have nothing better.

And if you really feel Jones is the best deep ball thrower, have some courage and tell JonC and Sy they're spouting BS also, because they have consistently agreed with me that Jones' vertical game is clearly lacking. Be consistent and have the courage of your convictions, rather than lambasting only me for having an identical take.

And the idea that Daboll an offensive guru and alleged QB whisperer didn't want or ask Jones to go vertical is farcical on its face. Jones didn't go vertical with consistency because he can't.



You are full of shit. You always have been and you continue to be so.
Just who was Jones to throw deep to this year, a guy that cannot catch the ball that hits him in the hands or the guy that is too slow to get open on a deep ball.

Don't bring up Sy or JonC. You conveniently ignore them when they say something contrary to your opinion and you are misquoting them now. I would suggest you go back an read Sy's review of the team. You dismissed him then and you will continue to dismiss him in the future.
I pretty much agree with JonC on most things. He is reasonable and well thought out, unlike your bombastic retorts.

I am done with you and I was stupid to even engage you here.


More dodging and specious arguments and intellectual cowardice. You got owned. Seeya.
RE: RE: He isn’t good enough to hold out?  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 2:48 pm : link
In comment 16027661 Producer said:
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In comment 16027620 UConn4523 said:


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what does that even mean? You really do just make stuff up. Lots of players haven’t held out because financially it’s a terrible move for them. Are none of them good enough either? Who’s good enough to hold out?



He should take his $32M and thank the Giants.


Cool.
RE: Thanks for confirming  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 2:52 pm : link
In comment 16027651 HomerJones45 said:
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whatever I reply with won’t matter, so don’t worry about it

the hyperbole in your statement.


You haven’t displayed any ability to have a decent convo without your typical, predictable replies. My reasons aren’t worth mentioning to you. Ever wonder why you get the replies that you so often do on this site? Is it everyone else or maybe just you?
RE: RE: Thanks for confirming  
HomerJones45 : 2/8/2023 3:23 pm : link
In comment 16027686 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 16027651 HomerJones45 said:


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whatever I reply with won’t matter, so don’t worry about it

the hyperbole in your statement.



You haven’t displayed any ability to have a decent convo without your typical, predictable replies. My reasons aren’t worth mentioning to you. Ever wonder why you get the replies that you so often do on this site? Is it everyone else or maybe just you?
Thank you. Your opinion is noted and most appreciated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: DJ looked so good vs Minny  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 3:30 pm : link
In comment 16027665 Producer said:
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More dodging and specious arguments and intellectual cowardice. You got owned. Seeya.


Wow, I can't think of a better example on this site of the pot calling the kettle black.

Your lack of self awareness is stunning....
DJ would be stupid to sign a multiyear deal at less than $32 million A  
GMen72 : 2/8/2023 4:00 pm : link
He knows the Giants have to tag him at this point, they can't just let him walk, although they should.

On the flip side, DJ is a product of a dumbed down, dink and dunk, offense...and the Giants would be stupid to give a QB, that hasn't thrown for more than 15 TDs in 3 consecutive seasons, a multiyear deal.

I hope they walk away from DJ, but I expect him to get tagged.walkibg away is way better than locking into an average QB that can't do anything against good defenses,or win conference games.
I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 4:10 pm : link
where he was mocked for only passing for 16 TDs (despite a very good OL and a better WR/TE combo) and a few, myself included, were bracing for impact if he ever improved. Turns out getting Brown allowed for him to take that next step and now will be getting paid.

We don’t have the opportunity to go back in time and hire Schoen/Daboll in 2020 to see if the same thing would happen here but I’m fairly confident they won’t be tagging him or giving him a contract if they didn’t think he can throw more than 15 TDs. So bringing it up, and citing a Joe Judge offense couldn’t be more pointless.
RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
GMen72 : 2/8/2023 4:15 pm : link
In comment 16027748 UConn4523 said:
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where he was mocked for only passing for 16 TDs (despite a very good OL and a better WR/TE combo) and a few, myself included, were bracing for impact if he ever improved. Turns out getting Brown allowed for him to take that next step and now will be getting paid.

We don’t have the opportunity to go back in time and hire Schoen/Daboll in 2020 to see if the same thing would happen here but I’m fairly confident they won’t be tagging him or giving him a contract if they didn’t think he can throw more than 15 TDs. So bringing it up, and citing a Joe Judge offense couldn’t be more pointless.


That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.
I don’t disagree  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 4:22 pm : link
I’m accounting for a top tier OL and good weapons with a competent coaching to Jones’ first 3 years. You either think it matters or you don’t (and it clearly does given when the 2022 Giants pulled off).

Do you think Schoen/Daboll don’t know if Jones can throw for more than 15 TDs? That’s what I don’t get about this argument. If they think that’s what defines Jones then Jones won’t be our QB anymore.
RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 4:28 pm : link
In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:
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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.


Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...

It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..

But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...
RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
GMen72 : 2/8/2023 4:59 pm : link
In comment 16027760 speedywheels said:
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In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:


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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.



Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...

It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..

But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...


Regardless of circumstances, you can't commit to a QB for 3-4 years because you "HOPE" he'll make the jump Hurts made.

"What if" you sign another big contract WR, and draft another, and DJ still throws for 15-18 TDs? What if this is peak DJ? Happy you signed him to a multiyear deal?

You like DJ...great. You still can't commit to a QB longterm until he produces TDs and scores points. If you're wrong, it's gonna set the franchise back at least 5 years (3 with DJ, and 2-3 with a new QB). If Schoen is dead set on bringing him back, just tag him and make him earn an extension with real franchise QB numbers.
RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
bw in dc : 2/8/2023 5:10 pm : link
In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:
Quote:


That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.


Hurts still bothers me as a passer, but he absolutely showed progress in YR2 (2021). And that was with a receiving corp that was compromised of: rookie DSmith, Reagor, Watkins, Goedert.

From his rookie year, his completion% increased almost 10 percentage points, he passed for 10 more TD passes, and his QBR increased from 33 to 54+. And he ran for nearly 800 yards and 10 rushing TDs.

Frankly, I think the reason Roseman went for AJ Brown was because he was convinced that Hurts was the long-term solution from that YR2 performance.
RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
chick310 : 2/8/2023 5:17 pm : link
In comment 16027760 speedywheels said:
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In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:


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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.



Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...

It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..

But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...


Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.

Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?
Gmen72  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 5:31 pm : link
take your fan hat off for a second. It’s quite possible Schoen and Judge believe he’s taken that jump already. In fact, I’d say that’s likely given that they are in discussions for his next contract.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 5:35 pm : link
In comment 16027780 chick310 said:
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In comment 16027760 speedywheels said:


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In comment 16027750 GMen72 said:


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That was year 2 for Hurts, next year will be year 5, and coming off 4 bad/average years, for DJ. Hurts has shown the normal progression a young QB makes.



Hurts also wasn't saddled with a poor OL, even worse WR's and - most importantly - two years of Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett...

It's pretty easy for Hurts to show progression when you have the best OL, two terrific WR's, a really good TE and a top 2 defense to get you the ball back very quickly..

But hey - don't let facts get in the way of a (failing) narrative...



Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.

Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?


Not sure why you are giving me "credit" now, as I've made these same points over and over - and over - again. But whatever.

I've said before that he has shown me enough this season to warrant a contract offer. He's checked every box they've asked of him, they don't need another year to figure out what they've got. And of course, the FT would limit their ability to get him the legit weapons he - and this offense -desperately needs. He can use several of course, but one will be a really good start

The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).

Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
chick310 : 2/8/2023 5:49 pm : link
In comment 16027784 speedywheels said:
Quote:

Speedy with fair points for a change, but only to a degree.

Screams Franchise Tag for DJ right Speedy? Or are you ready to push your chips into middle of the table since you are typically the voice/narrative of reason?



Not sure why you are giving me "credit" now, as I've made these same points over and over - and over - again. But whatever.

I've said before that he has shown me enough this season to warrant a contract offer. He's checked every box they've asked of him, they don't need another year to figure out what they've got. And of course, the FT would limit their ability to get him the legit weapons he - and this offense -desperately needs. He can use several of course, but one will be a really good start

The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).

Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.


No limiting anything. If he is worth $32-$25M per year then that is the annual standard figure to put under the cap and let's see what we can do. Don't play the year to year game with moving money around under the cap and dodge the question.

It may mean losing Saquon or Big Leonard in order to put some IOLs/WRs on the roster but that's the salary cap game.

Is DJ worth the squeeze at $35M for 2-3 years or not?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
BillT : 2/8/2023 5:56 pm : link
In comment 16027784 speedywheels said:
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The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).

Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.

It isn't "too much". It's market value. Kirk Cousins made $35m and we all know Jones is better than him. Remamber. people complained about Eli's 2nd contract. QBs get paid and they don't get lowballed by their teams. If anything they get a bit more. That's just the way the NFL works.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
GMen72 : 2/8/2023 6:07 pm : link
In comment 16027794 BillT said:
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In comment 16027784 speedywheels said:


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The 5/200 I've seen suggested is a bit much. I would go with something 3/110 (80ish guaranteed) or 4/140 (100ish guaranteed).

Will Team Jones go for that, we'll have to wait and see.


It isn't "too much". It's market value. Kirk Cousins made $35m and we all know Jones is better than him. Remamber. people complained about Eli's 2nd contract. QBs get paid and they don't get lowballed by their teams. If anything they get a bit more. That's just the way the NFL works.


How is DJ better than Cousins? That's crazy! In no universe, stat wise, can DJ sniff Cousins, and he's been putting up numbers for years, pre-Jefferson and with 2 different franchises. DJ isn't as good as Cousins, and it's not close. If you're basing that on who won one playoff game, that's silly...Minnesota had the 2nd worst total yard defense in the NFL, lots of QBs played as well, or better, than DJ against the Vikes.

In the NFL, you get paid for production...not feel good stories. DJ has 36 passing TDs in the last 3 years combined. That's not good and doesn't warrant a multiyear deal.
RE: Gmen72  
GMen72 : 2/8/2023 6:17 pm : link
In comment 16027783 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
take your fan hat off for a second. It’s quite possible Schoen and Judge believe he’s taken that jump already. In fact, I’d say that’s likely given that they are in discussions for his next contract.


They didn't give him a 5th year, they didn't negotiate with him during the bye, and by all accounts, haven't started a negotiation as of now. Do I think they want to see what DJ can do next year? Yes. Have I seen anything to make me believe they're going to give him a multiyear deal at crazy money? No.

I think DJ gets tagged. Being wrong on a multiyear deal for DJ is a career ender for Schoen...I doubt he wants to bet his career on a QB who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since 2019 (when he was a turnover machine.)

Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.
GMen72  
Sean : 2/8/2023 6:21 pm : link
Can’t sniff Cousins? This is where you go too far. He just outplayed Cousins on the road in a playoff win. Sick of hearing about Cousins. He’s never done anything in a big spot.
RE: RE: Gmen72  
section125 : 2/8/2023 6:25 pm : link
In comment 16027809 GMen72 said:
Quote:

Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.


Why do you need to insult people? "fanboys" Does that make you feel important? Superior?

I have reservations on a long term deal - been expressed numerous times.
Question for you - what if Daboll and Schoen are convinced he is the guy that can lead the team to the Super Bowl, but because he is a running QB, the chance of injury is higher than a drop back, pocket passer. What if Schoen wants to protect the team from a career ending injury and wants to get him for 3 years to minimize the loss in case of injury? All you need to do is look around the league at the QBs hurt to see that hedging may be what Schoen is looking at.

We don't know that DJ is better than Cousins..  
NYG07 : 2/8/2023 6:31 pm : link
But lets not use the contract for Cousins to justify anything. Cousins is way overpaid. That doesn't mean Jones needs to be too.

Just look at some of the comments in this thread..

"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"

"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."

Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.

It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.
RE: RE: Gmen72  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 6:36 pm : link
In comment 16027809 GMen72 said:
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In comment 16027783 UConn4523 said:


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take your fan hat off for a second. It’s quite possible Schoen and Judge believe he’s taken that jump already. In fact, I’d say that’s likely given that they are in discussions for his next contract.



They didn't give him a 5th year, they didn't negotiate with him during the bye, and by all accounts, haven't started a negotiation as of now. Do I think they want to see what DJ can do next year? Yes. Have I seen anything to make me believe they're going to give him a multiyear deal at crazy money? No.

I think DJ gets tagged. Being wrong on a multiyear deal for DJ is a career ender for Schoen...I doubt he wants to bet his career on a QB who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since 2019 (when he was a turnover machine.)

Here's the problem for the fanboys...what if this is peak DJ? What if he doesn't improve, or only slightly improves? A multiyear deal is a killer, and unnecessary...just tag him if he won't accept a low ball offer.


The 5th year reason is as pointless as the joe judge production (and actually a direct result from it). Gettelman left our cap in shambles and DJ wasn’t good enough yet to warrant it. They just worked with him for a year, that kinda matters a hell of a lot more.

And if you are going to call people fanboys, even people like me who are perfectly fine moving on if that’s what our GM thinks is the best course, don’t expect anyone to converse with you seriously.
Cousins was overpaid but not long term  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 6:38 pm : link
and they continued to choose to overpay him. He didn’t sign a 6 year deal they couldn’t get out of, he’s been signing smaller deals for more money annually and both sides have benefitted, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Gmen72  
Producer : 2/8/2023 6:55 pm : link
In comment 16027818 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16027809 GMen72 said:


Quote:


Why do you need to insult people? "fanboys" Does that make you feel important? Superior?




That's rich coming from you. It's your bread and butter.
RE: Cousins was overpaid but not long term  
Producer : 2/8/2023 6:58 pm : link
In comment 16027826 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and they continued to choose to overpay him. He didn’t sign a 6 year deal they couldn’t get out of, he’s been signing smaller deals for more money annually and both sides have benefitted, IMO.


It's highly controversial in Vikings circles to say it's worked out. They had pretty good teams but no real championship contenders. Is that where we want to go? Because I'll say right now, fuhhgettaboutit.
...  
christian : 2/8/2023 7:06 pm : link
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.
RE: We don't know that DJ is better than Cousins..  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 7:22 pm : link
In comment 16027819 NYG07 said:
Quote:
But lets not use the contract for Cousins to justify anything. Cousins is way overpaid. That doesn't mean Jones needs to be too.

Just look at some of the comments in this thread..

"I believe jones can create 30 TDs next year with better receivers"

"Once DJ has the weapons that Mahomes has, maybe he can have 35 TDs."

Everything is based on projection. We don't know he can do these things until he actually does it against NFL defenses.

It really shouldn't be controversial that not all Giants fans are thrilled with the prospect of Jones being added to the collection of way overpaid above average QBs. I would actually like to see him perform like a top 10 QB before I am ready to give him a cap crippling contract.


LOL - jones haters continue to ignore facts that don't support their argument.

Fact:

He hasn't had a good - or even a mediocre - pass blocking OL that will give him more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.

Jones haters: "He hasn't thrown the ball deep all year, he sucks!"

Fact:

His WR's are mediocre at best.

Jones haters: "His passing numbers suck, and he only has 15 TD's!"

Fact:

For 2021 and 2022, his HC was Joe fucking Judge, and his OC was Jason fucking Garrett

Jones haters: "elite QB's are supposed to elevate the players around him; his numbers suck, therefore he's a shitty player"

Also Jones haters: "Trevor Lawrence sucked last year because of the HC was awful"
Also Jones haters: "Part of the reason why Russell Wilson sucked this year was the coaching"

There are many more examples, but I'll stop there....
Vikings fans can go blame the defense  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 7:23 pm : link
Kirk has technically been cost controlled for his whole tenure there. He signed a 3 year deal, followed by a 2 year deal and now a 1 year deal. They could have moved on after the first deal and didn’t. Same with the second. Had the Vikings drafted better and didn’t have a horrible defense the last 3 years they could have had different results.
RE: ...  
BillT : 2/8/2023 7:23 pm : link
In comment 16027834 christian said:
Quote:
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.

christian, you may be right Schoen said that but I just don't see how they do that. First, they decline his option and now want a second "bite at the apple" by franchising him Only if you're using him as a stop gap and that's possible. But, I don't think you can do that and then have him as your franchise QB. I think that burns that bridge.
RE: ...  
UConn4523 : 2/8/2023 7:26 pm : link
In comment 16027834 christian said:
Quote:
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.


I agree, historicals are interesting to follow and are often good benchmarks, but they aren’t gospel. Jones’ entire tenure has been outside of the norm, Giants fans should be used to it by now. Nothing matters more than what happened in 2022 no matter how much people want to live in the past.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I remember last years Jalen Hurts threads  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 7:31 pm : link
In comment 16027790 chick310 said:
Quote:



No limiting anything. If he is worth $32-$25M per year then that is the annual standard figure to put under the cap and let's see what we can do. Don't play the year to year game with moving money around under the cap and dodge the question.

It may mean losing Saquon or Big Leonard in order to put some IOLs/WRs on the roster but that's the salary cap game.

Is DJ worth the squeeze at $35M for 2-3 years or not?


What in the fuck are you talking about?

Do I need to explain the basics of how the salary cap works? The FT means the hit happens in all one year, so it limits the amount of resources that can be allocated elsewhere. If they sign him to a 3,4 (or 5) year deal, with signing bonuses it can make the first few years very cap friendly, thus allowing to sign other weapons.

Yes, he's "worth the squeeze" for 2-3 years at a 35 per. But again, that's very different from what his salary cap price will be for those 2-3 years.

Sorry you weren't aware how the cap works, I hope this short lesson was educational for you.

Taking advantage of how the salary cap works isn't "dodging the question", it's how most successful teams operate in the most efficient way possible....
RE: ...  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 7:33 pm : link
In comment 16027834 christian said:
Quote:
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.


How many other QB's had to deal with the shit/clown show known as Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett for not one but TWO FUCKING YEARS??
RE: ...  
speedywheels : 2/8/2023 7:35 pm : link
In comment 16027834 christian said:
Quote:
Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.


I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??

Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/8/2023 8:08 pm : link
In comment 16027863 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 16027834 christian said:


Quote:


Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.



How many other QB's had to deal with the shit/clown show known as Joe fucking Judge and Jason fucking Garrett for not one but TWO FUCKING YEARS??


You need a hug and a Care Bear. On what planet does that have anything to do with what I posted?
RE: RE: ...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/8/2023 8:09 pm : link
In comment 16027866 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 16027834 christian said:


Quote:


Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.



I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??

Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...


Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.

Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.

Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 2/8/2023 8:16 pm : link
In comment 16027888 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 16027866 speedywheels said:


Quote:


In comment 16027834 christian said:


Quote:


Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.



I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??

Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...



Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.

Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.

Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.


Those things that Lawrence and Wilson accomplished, Jones throwing 15 TDs and beating the Vikings is better [/s]
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
IchabodGiant : 2/8/2023 8:45 pm : link
In comment 16027893 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 16027888 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 16027866 speedywheels said:


Quote:


In comment 16027834 christian said:


Quote:


Schoen was pretty clear before the season he viewed the franchise tender as a pumped up 5th year option, and he was willing to use it as such.

I don't think the historicals apply to Jones. Off the top of my head I can't think of a QB who had his opinion declined, who then signed with his original team.



I've seen several posters give Trevor Lawrence a pass for last year because of Urban Meyer - and also give Russel Wilson a pass this year because of Nathanial Hackett - yet Jones gets no pass for having Judge/Garrett for two??

Judge makes Meyer and Hackett look like Belichick...



Because Trevor Lawrence is Trevor Lawrence. If there's a college football all decade team he's on it.

Russell Wilson was an all pro QB with a ring.

Accomplishment is what earns a 'pass'.



Those things that Lawrence and Wilson accomplished, Jones throwing 15 TDs and beating the Vikings is better [/s]


Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Producer : 2/8/2023 9:17 pm : link
In comment 16027924 IchabodGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 16027893
Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.


I'm a Giants fan who thinks Jones ain't it. I've made consistent and logical arguments in support of my position. I don't change my opinion every week. I think the player is the player, unless he clearly demonstrates a new tier of play. As good as the Vikings performance was, the Eagles performance was every bit as bad. Jones is basically the same player he always has been with the same passing deficits. Sorry this offends you.

I don't believe we can win a championship with this QB. Many share the opinion that Jones is not a championship QB. If we sign him for 5 yrs I believe we are in for 5 years of 3rd place finishes and early playoff exits. And we will have wasted close to a decade with a QB who is just ok.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
CornerStone246+17 : 2/8/2023 9:32 pm : link
In comment 16027950 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 16027924 IchabodGiant said:


Quote:


In comment 16027893
Worst poster on this site. No value for (primarily) lurkers like me.



I'm a Giants fan who thinks Jones ain't it. I've made consistent and logical arguments in support of my position. I don't change my opinion every week. I think the player is the player, unless he clearly demonstrates a new tier of play. As good as the Vikings performance was, the Eagles performance was every bit as bad. Jones is basically the same player he always has been with the same passing deficits. Sorry this offends you.

I don't believe we can win a championship with this QB. Many share the opinion that Jones is not a championship QB. If we sign him for 5 yrs I believe we are in for 5 years of 3rd place finishes and early playoff exits. And we will have wasted close to a decade with a QB who is just ok.


I can tell you based on everything we've seen and heard he won over Daboll and Schoen and almost this entire organization to a man loves the kid and believe in him.

They also have been clear and realize that they haven't provided Daniel with anywhere near a good enough support system consisting of the combination of good scheme, quality WRs and functional pass protecting offensive line. I take this organziations take on DJ much higher than the other opinions out there.

Daboll the new guy and offensive mind has had plenty of tape amd time to breakdown DJ more than anyone of us and seems geniunely all in on him. Thats plenty enough for me to believe my convictions I already had on him have been confirmed.
CornerStone246  
Producer : 2/8/2023 9:41 pm : link
That's cool. I respect that you have a different opinion. I don't call you names. I don't think we know what BD and JS think. Whether they believe in him or not the statements may look exactly the same. HCs and GMs rarely bash their QB.

I think the upcoming deal will say a lot about what they think of him.
...  
christian : 2/8/2023 9:57 pm : link
Producer, you're 100% correct.

Coming off a season where Kyler Murray was 9-5 as a starter, and lost in the Wild Card round -- the Cardinals gave him a 5 year extension. Which technically doesn't even kick in until 2024.

That's commitment. That's saying we want you here for the next 7 years.

Does anyone think the Giants are about to do that with Jones?
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