in his round up from the combine. the short version:
- The Giants expected DJ to come in at 40m, and expected a pretty easy negotiation to 35. DJ actually came in asking above 45.
- The sense from agent world is that DJ replaced CAA because they told him his expectations were unrealistic.
- There's a lot of skepticism in the league that DJ would get close to what he wants or even what he'll get from the Giants from anyone else. But that it's moot since Giants are committed to him.
- General sense that both Barkley and Love are pricing themselves way above the market for RBs or S.
And then some other good stuff as always. To me, he's always the best Giants beat.
Everything I learned about the Giants at the NFL Scouting Combine - (
New Window )
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
Barkley can walk. Running backs don't do well on their second contract.
I would put non exclusive on DJ. If I get two first round picks let him walk.
Rebuild the time the right way. Build the roster and then get your QB.
Don't overpay. We did that for years and all we got were losing records. There are no quick fixes. You have to draft well.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
Agree with all of this. Stick to your guns on what you think these guys are worth, don't want to dig another hole.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
I like Julian’s versatility, but I just don’t see him as a high priority or even high impact player. Just as many laud how “replaceable” Saquon is I have a similar thought about him. Given how tight the cap$ is about to get once the DJ contract plays out, the remaining money can be better spent other places besides the Safety position.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
Couldn't agree more. It's not like the Giants had top O or D with these guys.
Can't overpay Love or SB.
And, they didn't trust Jones to throw the ball most of the year.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
This needs to be scrolled like the opening scene in Star Wars.
However, you inevitably have to overpay to keep your homegrown players. I see Love as a glue guy in the old R.W. McQuarters role. You can start him, bring him off the bench, move him around during the game, play him on specials, etc. Very valuable piece. Deserves multi-million a year annually.
It's a can't win situation, and it's bad for the league. Wish they could allow the hometown team to get a cap discount for retaining their originally drafted players. Let the player get an offer on the open market, then give the original team a chance to match, with a cap discount, if the player agrees.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
You've hit the nail on the head.
Last year at this time, I was filled with optimism. Unfortunately, I'm getting a very bad feeling that we are heading towards that cap hell. How does it make sense to overpay for a mediocre QB talent? How does it make sense to tag Barkley? Barkley can still dominate at times, but those games are few and far between and certainly the frequency isn't going to increase as he gets older. What does the tag get us? The opportunity to negotiate a long-term deal next year when Barkley enters his age 27 season? That's the time to consider moving on from an RB, especially one with a less than stellar injury history. Looks like we may be heading to having our own Dak and Zeke tandem, with a less talented version of Dak.
I’m going to be fucking pissed. Like WTF
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
exactly-- none of these guys are cap hell worthy- of all the FAs... tagging jones makes the most sense- the others will have to take realistic deals or leave.
need to save money for real difference makers-- Thomas, Lawrence... those types.
Takes a good man to not wavier after 4 years of mostly losing football and somewhat unique scrutiny and criticism of him as a player; to say nothing of new management not picking up his 5 th year option.
He s not easily intimidated which is a quality I have seen in him before.
I don't trust any of the info out there since there seems to be some bad blood between Jones and his old agency. The reporters should be wiser about this too.
That said, if these reports about $45+ million per year are accurate, I would pass. We're not talking about a proven commodity here.
In many of the recent mega deals we’ve handed out it has been noted in most cases we have been just bidding against ourselves.
Agree we should be willing to let players walk to avoid salary cap hell
Takes a good man to not wavier after 4 years of mostly losing football and somewhat unique scrutiny and criticism of him as a player; to say nothing of new management not picking up his 5 th year option.
He s not easily intimidated which is a quality I have seen in him before.
Well that’s an interesting way of looking at Jones ludicrously asking for over $45M, lol.
I don't trust any of the info out there since there seems to be some bad blood between Jones and his old agency. The reporters should be wiser about this too.
That said, if these reports about $45+ million per year are accurate, I would pass. We're not talking about a proven commodity here.
thank you, Eric. I think we’d all be wise not to just mindlessly go along for the ride, and allow ourselves to be played to the tune these ‘sources’ have in mind for us.
rathe than breathlessly hanging in to crumbs intended to sway and influence public opinion, let’s all just see where this lands.
I think we are at the stage where the any BBI poster that pens the next "home-town discount to stay in NY" remark should be ridiculed.
As to Barkley & Love, both can be replaced. RB to me is a much more fungible position than others. I like Barkley but I’d rather they spend $ improving at ILB, DL depth, and on the OL.
I have faith in Schoen.
You can not go into negotiations with the idea that this player is our only option
I think we are at the stage where the any BBI poster that pens the next "home-town discount to stay in NY" remark should be ridiculed.
Im 100% convinced that the best thing for this franchise long term is tagging Jones and letting anyone else walk. Barkley and Love are both replaceable players. All three guys are solid players but not franchise altering talents. The Giants need to remain disciplined and not fall in love with their own players.
You can not go into negotiations with the idea that this player is our only option
You are absolutely correct!
The Giants could have leaked this to put pressure on DJ's team and to give fans a perception that DJ's requests were just too high even though WE love DJ as an organization. But, they too can look bad here if he signed elsewhere for less.
Keep in mind what Schoen said just the other day after meeting with Richardson (QB Fla)- just because you have a GF doesn't mean you stop searching for a WIFE.. Does that quote sound like he is blindly looking to keep DJ at any cost and long-term???
People need to relax here. More crazy news and arguments will happen today and tomorrow, before he either signs or is tagged..
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if Schoen and Co are the goods -- they will prove that these players are all replaceable
You can not go into negotiations with the idea that this player is our only option
You are absolutely correct!
Yes, he is.
You can not go into negotiations with the idea that this player is our only option
Yep. If I’m Schoen I’m giving him the non exclusive tag. If no other team signs him to an offer sheet and he comes back and plays under the tag I’m telling Jones “You want franchise QB money, go be a franchise QB this season. We are taking the train wheels off. Put up franchise QB numbers and you’ll get your money. But no more excuses about the talent around you because if we give you the money you want, this is the type of roster you’ll be playing with throughout your contract because the cap hits are going to have a huge effect on what we can do around you. Good luck.”.
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
That’s an awful contract.
Barkley can walk. Running backs don't do well on their second contract.
I would put non exclusive on DJ. If I get two first round picks let him walk.
Rebuild the time the right way. Build the roster and then get your QB.
Don't overpay. We did that for years and all we got were losing records. There are no quick fixes. You have to draft well.
We overpayed for years?
The Giants have only extended two players in the recent history. obj/shep.
A few million dollars either way on DJ should not be a big deal. If he wants $45 mil it has to be on a 5 year deal with 3 void years. I think it will come on closer to $40. If he wants more let him play at the FT of $32. Everyone knows he’s going to be here. Use the FT, it will hurt FA a little but after no offers come in for $45 mil his numbers will drop. Then the Giants will have the upper hand and can sign him long term. After the draft some good vets will get cut and we will have $$.
As other teams are doing with these big QB contracts is push the money to later years. The cap will go up by at least $10 mil or more each year and every year a FA QB will reset the market. Burrow is next. Clearly the Giants like DJ and think they can win with him or they would only negotiate at the FT number. It will get done. There are currently no better options for the Giants and the FA market is very weak overall not just at QB. We need to keep the momentum from last year and the players seem to love DJ and his work ethic.
That's a flashing sign that says "Over pay"
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
So all this just to get dome cap space in 1 season? Great. What happens next offseason when he counts 42.5 mil?
So all this just to get dome cap space in 1 season? Great. What happens next offseason when he counts 42.5 mil?
You’re right. They wouldn’t front load it this much. Something like 22, 32, 42, etc. makes more sense.
Signing Jones & Barkley long term just seems like… running last years team back out there thinking they’ll magically catch Philly & Dallas.
We don't know what is really happening behind the scenes because the leadership group and Daniel Jones are above board people who prefer to work in private without all the leaks, "splashy Jerrah" stuff, etc.
I trust that Schoen and Daboll spent a lot of sleepless nights last year trying to figure out how to manipulate the horrible cap situation into a viable season.
When you live through the hell, you try not to get back!
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
Even this contract would crush the Giants if Jones can't become a top 10 QB, or worst case scenario, faceplants and turns back into 2020 and 2021 Jones.
The Giants would be awful until 2026 and couldn't do a damn thing about it because of the $42.5 million and $45 million cap hit for Jones.
This is all so crazy for a guy that showed improvement but still has a lot of question marks.
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if Schoen and Co are the goods -- they will prove that these players are all replaceable
You can not go into negotiations with the idea that this player is our only option
Yep. If I’m Schoen I’m giving him the non exclusive tag. If no other team signs him to an offer sheet and he comes back and plays under the tag I’m telling Jones “You want franchise QB money, go be a franchise QB this season. We are taking the train wheels off. Put up franchise QB numbers and you’ll get your money. But no more excuses about the talent around you because if we give you the money you want, this is the type of roster you’ll be playing with throughout your contract because the cap hits are going to have a huge effect on what we can do around you. Good luck.”.
I don't trust any of the info out there since there seems to be some bad blood between Jones and his old agency. The reporters should be wiser about this too.
That said, if these reports about $45+ million per year are accurate, I would pass. We're not talking about a proven commodity here.
So if Schoen and Daboll have doubts they should just go through the motions of pretending to negotiate a multi-year deal but ultimately have him play on the tag. On the other hand, if they truly believe he is their man, the longer the multi-year deal, the better (even if the longer deal, the higher the AAV and the greater the guaranteed money).
Yes. You look at what’s out there where more than half the teams don’t have QBs they trust and you wonder if there would be multiple teams interested. Seems pretty obvious.
He may force the Giants hand. I'm sure AF wants his number to start with a 4. I would ONLY do that if I'm Schoen, if they have an out after 3 years and the avg is less than 40 for that time. Otherwise, they are screwing themselves.
I think JS is smart enough NOT to take the bait.
No. Lol. I really had no issue w the Giants committing to him after a solid year but half of his success was running. While valuable IMO that's fools gold to rely on long term. Kyler Murray and Jackson both had serious leg injuries. You can not rely on the running long term. It's Russian roulette.
AND if he really wants 45 good bye. Franchise him and move on. He is not a true top tier QB. There are maybe 3 guys under 30 that fit that and we all know who they are. I can't imagine any team is going to give him anything over 40 w a long term deal. Someone got in his ear I guess. Schoen and other GMs have to be aware how over priced the Qb market is and at one point be smart enough to walk away.
Also, there’s the presumption in this argument that “real NFLers” know things. Sure, but they get things wrong a lot, despite their knowledge. It’s a tough job.
The Giants control Jones for 3 years at a total of 130M today. Only 33M of that would be fully guaranteed. That's a 43M AAV and an 18% blended average of the Giants total cap 23-25.
Jones has 3 options:
1) 3 years/130M with 33M fully guaranteed
2) 3 years at less than 130M with more than 33M guaranteed
3) More than 3 years and be underpaid probably by year 3
My best guess is the agreement is 3/110M with 70M fully guaranteed.
23: 15B 15S
24: 15B 10S 10RB (NG)
25: 15B 20S (NG) 10RB (NG)
Quote:
He has a lot of confidence in himself.
Takes a good man to not wavier after 4 years of mostly losing football and somewhat unique scrutiny and criticism of him as a player; to say nothing of new management not picking up his 5 th year option.
He s not easily intimidated which is a quality I have seen in him before.
Well that’s an interesting way of looking at Jones ludicrously asking for over $45M, lol.
Lol. What’s really interesting is how this will play out. But I do admire his tenacity
He could easily make them sweat just by not showing up for the offseason program or the voluntarily mini camps. Not saying he would but it would be headline news.
Jones has 3 options:
1) 3 years/130M with 33M fully guaranteed
2) 3 years at less than 130M with more than 33M guaranteed
3) More than 3 years and be underpaid probably by year 3
My best guess is the agreement is 3/110M with 70M fully guaranteed.
23: 15B 15S
24: 15B 10S 10RB (NG)
25: 15B 20S (NG) 10RB (NG) [/quote]
DJ got a raw deal here with the earlier GM - no doubt about it. It is what it is.
Too much roster deficiency to spend that much on DJ. We didn’t even belong on the same field as Philly - the game was over before fans were done tail gating.
Paying DJ and SB essentially means we’ll be marching out the same roster, with an additional rookie class and some bargain free agents
Gettleman didn't have a walk-away number for guys like Solder and Galloday.
There are legit reasons why you can argue that Jones has not been more productive, but at the end of the day, he hasn't been that productive.
As for Barkley, my views on him haven't changed since last offseason when I said the best-case scenario (for me) was for him to have a tremendous first-half of the year, and then trade him. The problem for the Giants were they were 6-2 at the break and there would have been a riot had they traded him at that point.
I still wonder how productive a back he will be over the course of the next 3-4 years. You can come up for reasons why he wasn't terribly productive in the second-half of the year, but bottom line, he wasn't.
If Jones plays hardball, there won't be a deal, he will get tagged and its a 1 year rental most likely.
Quote:
He could easily make them sweat just by not showing up for the offseason program or the voluntarily mini camps. Not saying he would but it would be headline news.
This is true, but I feel like it would come under the heading of "cutting off your nose to spite your face" because as the QB of the team, he needs as much work as possible with the rest of the offense in order to have the kind of season that will lead to a big bucks deal in 2024.
You’re the one who asked and I didn’t say he would or should.
Beaten in 3Q by Lions, Seattle & Dallas
Played Washington to a virtual 9Q standstill over 3 weeks
Wins over Indy & Houston, maybe 2 worst teams in NFL
Giants did play very well vs Vikings.
The Giants clearly would have lost last week of season as the 2 games vs Philly show should they have needed to.
The Giants should not overestimate their own talent here.
LOL. So true.
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
This is a very very realistic scenario IMO. Well done.
Quote:
Proposes a contract that might end up happening.
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
So all this just to get dome cap space in 1 season? Great. What happens next offseason when he counts 42.5 mil?
It's an easy fix. Move some of the money from Years 2 and 3 to Year 1.
If Jones plays hardball, there won't be a deal, he will get tagged and its a 1 year rental most likely.
My guess is a deal gets done and when the numbers are FIRST released, people will be pissed. Then news will come out that the contract is better than it looks.
Joe has to hold the line.
Quote:
and if Duggan's numbers are "accurate", I bet that walk away number is around 38 million. That would mean Jones would have to come down almost 10 million AND his contract would start with a 3. I'm betting AF will NOT settle for that, they want Jones to re-set the flood for contracts at 40 (with Hurts and Herbert coming up).
If Jones plays hardball, there won't be a deal, he will get tagged and its a 1 year rental most likely.
My guess is a deal gets done and when the numbers are FIRST released, people will be pissed. Then news will come out that the contract is better than it looks.
I think Schoen will use the 40 as his closer. He knows the PR aspects from both sides. 5/200 looks right and is perfectly reasonable for Jones in this market which has recently been inflated by new TV deals.
Well shit, may as well pay him $60M/per then! Since there’s not much of a difference and apparently overpaying doesn’t really matter…
Quote:
In comment 16050673 Gogiantsgo said:
Quote:
Proposes a contract that might end up happening.
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
So all this just to get dome cap space in 1 season? Great. What happens next offseason when he counts 42.5 mil?
It's an easy fix. Move some of the money from Years 2 and 3 to Year 1.
So...in essence, you want to give Jones 7 years to prove himself.
Holy friggin' shit!
I still wonder how productive a back he will be over the course of the next 3-4 years. You can come up for reasons why he wasn't terribly productive in the second-half of the year, but bottom line, he wasn't.
A $10M difference could be the ability to tag Barkley or not. In a constrained environment, that's a big deal.
On the flip side, if the argument is Jones needs more weapons, every dollar spent on him is dollars that can't be spent on talent around him. It's self defeating.
If Jones is the guy who can elevate the team, the above point is irrelevant.
Quote:
and if Duggan's numbers are "accurate", I bet that walk away number is around 38 million. That would mean Jones would have to come down almost 10 million AND his contract would start with a 3. I'm betting AF will NOT settle for that, they want Jones to re-set the flood for contracts at 40 (with Hurts and Herbert coming up).
If Jones plays hardball, there won't be a deal, he will get tagged and its a 1 year rental most likely.
My guess is a deal gets done and when the numbers are FIRST released, people will be pissed. Then news will come out that the contract is better than it looks.
This
Then they'll have limited cap space (and one less high draft pick) to upgrade WR and OL (not to mention CB, S, ILB and DL).
Also factor in a tougher schedule and DJ and the O could really struggle next year. At which point Jones might not be able to get the same long-term deal at $38M AAV.
I agree with Eric, more than likely, they hammer out a deal that "looks good" for both sides, by Tue. NEITHER side wants to go to a tag, it has bad optics on both sides.
RB and Safety is a lot easier to replace than it is your QB.
He does have the NEFT with Jones but that does carry some risks for both Schoen and Jones.
The higher he goes on the AAV I hope he gets back with a more manageable way to get out of the deal if needed after 2 or 3 years.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
+1. Don't overpay for anyone. I'm happy letting Jones play on the NEFT to make him prove it again this year. I don't want the Jones negotiations to be a repeat of what DG did with Golladay, namely competing against ourselves for his services. I'd like to resign Love. I'd probably let Barkley go. But I'm fine letting both leave.
Barkley can walk. Running backs don't do well on their second contract.
I would put non exclusive on DJ. If I get two first round picks let him walk.
Rebuild the time the right way. Build the roster and then get your QB.
Don't overpay. We did that for years and all we got were losing records. There are no quick fixes. You have to draft well.
+2.
You're right, CIP. Kind of like a 7th sense. Some might call it cosmic debris.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
+10000000000000000000000000
It seems some on here are willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house for Jones.
Jones wants to stay, they want him, so logically, they will find a happy medium.
Its going to be more than we would pay him, but Schoen still has to build the roster, whether he Tags him or reaches an agreement.
I would love to know this. This has NYG bidding against themselves written all over it.
I'd bet good money the market outside of 1925 Giants Way Dr views Jones as a $30M AAV QB...tops. The smart play is to hedge with a NEFT (I prefer the TT) and dare New Team Jones to get his big offer.
Let’s not confuse paying a FA “too much” and why the giants sucked since 2012. They sucked because they didn’t bring in enough talent. Solder was a bad move in hindsight but that’s not the reason why the giants sucked. The fact that they even had to find a LT from another team, in FA was the bigger issue.
They will pay these guys market value and if they want more than that they will dare Barkley and jones to find it elsewhere. From there it’s anyone’s guess what happens but we aren’t there yet. Odds are they settle here. You usually overpay when it’s a FA from another team.
Let’s not confuse paying a FA “too much” and why the giants sucked since 2012. They sucked because they didn’t bring in enough talent. Solder was a bad move in hindsight but that’s not the reason why the giants sucked. The fact that they even had to find a LT from another team, in FA was the bigger issue.
They will pay these guys market value and if they want more than that they will dare Barkley and jones to find it elsewhere. From there it’s anyone’s guess what happens but we aren’t there yet. Odds are they settle here. You usually overpay when it’s a FA from another team.
And let's not act like they knew what they were doing in FA either. Most of the FA's that a team signs for pretty big - the requirement shouldn't be that they are going to really suck. But with the Giants that seemed the majority of the rule.
As far as FA, the problem was what later Gettleman admitted that he did wrong; he tried to simultaneously believed he could win while rebuild. He admitted later he should have done one or the other. SO, it' not as much as Solder and the FA's sucked; it's the lack of recognition of what your team actually is.
That's their job. They get paid to be right most of the time. When they fail, they deserve all the backlash. By DG going after Solder, it wasn't the issue that he sucked as much as the GM was too stupid to realize he should’ve been in complete rebuild. That's why he and GM's like him are gone quickly. They have a weak grasp of what they have.
Jones wants to stay, they want him, so logically, they will find a happy medium.
Its going to be more than we would pay him, but Schoen still has to build the roster, whether he Tags him or reaches an agreement.
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In comment 16050690 HardTruth said:
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In comment 16050673 Gogiantsgo said:
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Proposes a contract that might end up happening.
$200M/5 years $120M guaranteed
$50M signing bonus prorated over 5 year contract
Year 1: $2.5M base, $12.5M cap hit ($52.5M cash to Jones)
Year 2: $2.5M base, $30M roster bonus, $42.5M cap hit ($32.5M cash to Jones)
Year 3: $35M base, $45M cap hit ($35M cash to Jones)
Out after year 3 with only $20M in dead cap to be distributed over years 4 and 5
If Jones is retained under current contract
Year 4: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Year 5: $40M base, $50M cap hit ($40M cash to Jones)
Dead cap:
Year 1: $85M
Year 2: $72.5M
Year 3: $30M
Year 4: $20M
Year 5: $10M
Void Year
So all this just to get dome cap space in 1 season? Great. What happens next offseason when he counts 42.5 mil?
It's an easy fix. Move some of the money from Years 2 and 3 to Year 1.
So...in essence, you want to give Jones 7 years to prove himself.
Holy friggin' shit!
First, this is sportrac numbers, not mine. Second, you better be ready for it because an extension is three years minimum. And third, "to prove himself" is your biased take. I'm willing to bet that the Giants management (which understands the situation far better than you or me) are not looking at it like that AT ALL. They are looking at it as signing a QB to a long term extension that will help the team win.
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is a dangerous time for the Giants. They should not overvalue any of these guys or they will quickly be back in cap hell.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
+10000000000000000000000000
It seems some on here are willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house for Jones.
No, though there are some here who are realistic about the market for Jones. At least that's how I see it.
You might get more trust if you submitted better posts.
This seems more of the same of why you don't.
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In comment 16050608 Eric from BBI said:
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is a dangerous time for the Giants. They should not overvalue any of these guys or they will quickly be back in cap hell.
Jones had a nice year, but he still has a LOT to prove. Barkley was hampered by the lack of surround threats, but they actually didn't rely on him all that much in the second half of the year and still has the injury history. Love has gotten better every year, but came up small in the games against the Eagles.
+10000000000000000000000000
It seems some on here are willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house for Jones.
No, though there are some here who are realistic about the market for Jones. At least that's how I see it.
You reacted to my post by saying "no." My post clearly said "Some." And you said "No."
Are you saying there is no one who has unrealistic view of paying a very high cost for Jones/looking at alternatives?
Or is it you just wanted to be contrarian and didn't like the tone of the post?
I don't agree with this on certain levels. One is that Imo what you're saying is the trap that big markets fall into why they fail. That "it's only $10m more. Well, that's the reason why you don't sign in the past a DE like Chris Long.
And you have to remember this a chat board that we share ideas. Some of us do think an extra $10m is a lot. And if it fails and the Giants are lousy the next several years in which Jones sucks you have to understand that some of us are going to be mad at Giants Mgmt, right?
And you better believe that if we signed Jones for $40m-plus and it turns out to be awful that there will be posters / some in the media that will say that we HAD to do it and NO ONE was saying we shouldn't.
As a result, if they do go all-in and i doesn't work out, then 2 years or maybe three down the road they would deserve to be ripped for it. Because they DO have alternatives.
Dave Gettleman misunderstood the talent for his team. It is highly possible that we have the same thing happening here.
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I'm kind of with Milton here. If the Giants are willing to pay DJ $35M then trust me $45M just ain't that big a difference. And the fact is that if the Giants win going forward no is going to care what his cap hit is. And if they don't we will be fucked but not because of Jones' cap hit but because we don't have a QB. Fact is it appears that Schoen/Daboll think the team is pretty close to being ready to really rock and roll and have hitched their wagon to DJ not that they have any other realistic choices at this time. And once you have done that you go all in (within reason) because its really really hard to win it all in the NFL.
I don't agree with this on certain levels. One is that Imo what you're saying is the trap that big markets fall into why they fail. That "it's only $10m more. Well, that's the reason why you don't sign in the past a DE like Chris Long.
And you have to remember this a chat board that we share ideas. Some of us do think an extra $10m is a lot. And if it fails and the Giants are lousy the next several years in which Jones sucks you have to understand that some of us are going to be mad at Giants Mgmt, right?
And you better believe that if we signed Jones for $40m-plus and it turns out to be awful that there will be posters / some in the media that will say that we HAD to do it and NO ONE was saying we shouldn't.
As a result, if they do go all-in and i doesn't work out, then 2 years or maybe three down the road they would deserve to be ripped for it. Because they DO have alternatives.
Dave Gettleman misunderstood the talent for his team. It is highly possible that we have the same thing happening here.
I agree with most of your post but your last sentence is asinine. How many times has Schoen mentioned the team has a ton of holes to fill? He’s been incredibly forthright in where he thinks this team is and why getting these guys signed is such a tricky situation. So, no, it IS NOT “highly probable the same thing is happening here”. Shown knows exactly what the talent level of this team is. He’s said so a million times this offseason if you’ve been paying attention
It seems some on here are willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house for Jones.
No, though there are some here who are realistic about the market for Jones. At least that's how I see it.
You reacted to my post by saying "no." My post clearly said "Some." And you said "No."
Are you saying there is no one who has unrealistic view of paying a very high cost for Jones/looking at alternatives?
Or is it you just wanted to be contrarian and didn't like the tone of the post?
You said some here are “willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house”, which is not only not a “realistic” take but rather hyperbolic. I just said no that’s not what some here are doing. Some here are being realistic about the market for Jones. And you’re the one complaining. Wow, just wow.
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I'm kind of with Milton here. If the Giants are willing to pay DJ $35M then trust me $45M just ain't that big a difference. And the fact is that if the Giants win going forward no is going to care what his cap hit is. And if they don't we will be fucked but not because of Jones' cap hit but because we don't have a QB. Fact is it appears that Schoen/Daboll think the team is pretty close to being ready to really rock and roll and have hitched their wagon to DJ not that they have any other realistic choices at this time. And once you have done that you go all in (within reason) because its really really hard to win it all in the NFL.
I don't agree with this on certain levels. One is that Imo what you're saying is the trap that big markets fall into why they fail. That "it's only $10m more. Well, that's the reason why you don't sign in the past a DE like Chris Long.
And you have to remember this a chat board that we share ideas. Some of us do think an extra $10m is a lot. And if it fails and the Giants are lousy the next several years in which Jones sucks you have to understand that some of us are going to be mad at Giants Mgmt, right?
And you better believe that if we signed Jones for $40m-plus and it turns out to be awful that there will be posters / some in the media that will say that we HAD to do it and NO ONE was saying we shouldn't.
As a result, if they do go all-in and i doesn't work out, then 2 years or maybe three down the road they would deserve to be ripped for it. Because they DO have alternatives.
Dave Gettleman misunderstood the talent for his team. It is highly possible that we have the same thing happening here.
Going backwards up your post:
yes Gettleman misunderstood the talent, but since Schoen has been picking winners off other people's PS, I would say you are totally wrong.
Name the alternatives available to the Giants at QB, drafting 25th - there aren't any that are better than what they have, period. Yes, if they hitch their wagon to Jones and he fails, this place will be a zoo. Obviously Schoen and Daboll think they have their horse. Most of us are skeptical, to some degree.
It is a chat board and it does not need to be pointed out what will happen if the Giants and Jones come up short - despite winning this past season people are grousing already.
I agree that $10 mill is a significant amount - that can sign Love, with money to spare for a nice bench player or two, for example.
I agree that $10 mill is a significant amount - that can sign Love, with money to spare for a nice bench player or two, for example.
It really isn’t a $10m gap. I don’t think Schoen in any way thought he was going to sign DJ for 35. Nor do I think DJ thought 45 was going to work. It’s more like 38-42. So, we’ll see. Seems it should be doable but who knows.
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In comment 16050872 Colin@gbn said:
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I'm kind of with Milton here. If the Giants are willing to pay DJ $35M then trust me $45M just ain't that big a difference. And the fact is that if the Giants win going forward no is going to care what his cap hit is. And if they don't we will be fucked but not because of Jones' cap hit but because we don't have a QB. Fact is it appears that Schoen/Daboll think the team is pretty close to being ready to really rock and roll and have hitched their wagon to DJ not that they have any other realistic choices at this time. And once you have done that you go all in (within reason) because its really really hard to win it all in the NFL.
I don't agree with this on certain levels. One is that Imo what you're saying is the trap that big markets fall into why they fail. That "it's only $10m more. Well, that's the reason why you don't sign in the past a DE like Chris Long.
And you have to remember this a chat board that we share ideas. Some of us do think an extra $10m is a lot. And if it fails and the Giants are lousy the next several years in which Jones sucks you have to understand that some of us are going to be mad at Giants Mgmt, right?
And you better believe that if we signed Jones for $40m-plus and it turns out to be awful that there will be posters / some in the media that will say that we HAD to do it and NO ONE was saying we shouldn't.
As a result, if they do go all-in and i doesn't work out, then 2 years or maybe three down the road they would deserve to be ripped for it. Because they DO have alternatives.
Dave Gettleman misunderstood the talent for his team. It is highly possible that we have the same thing happening here.
Going backwards up your post:
yes Gettleman misunderstood the talent, but since Schoen has been picking winners off other people's PS, I would say you are totally wrong.
Name the alternatives available to the Giants at QB, drafting 25th - there aren't any that are better than what they have, period. Yes, if they hitch their wagon to Jones and he fails, this place will be a zoo. Obviously Schoen and Daboll think they have their horse. Most of us are skeptical, to some degree.
The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
Ok, your whole plan is about money and not really whether it can improve the roster spot?
Yes, if you pick a QB at 25, he had better be better than Jones. And Schoen has already made up his mind that Jones is better than what else there is available. If Schoen felt he could do equally as well picking a QB at 25 over Jones, he would let Jones walk.
Yes $3 mill is cheaper than $40 mill, but by the same logic, Taylor would be a lot cheaper too - and at least we know he can actually play QB in the NFL.
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The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
Ok, your whole plan is about money and not really whether it can improve the roster spot?
Yes, if you pick a QB at 25, he had better be better than Jones. And Schoen has already made up his mind that Jones is better than what else there is available. If Schoen felt he could do equally as well picking a QB at 25 over Jones, he would let Jones walk.
Yes $3 mill is cheaper than $40 mill, but by the same logic, Taylor would be a lot cheaper too - and at least we know he can actually play QB in the NFL.
To be fair, we don’t know yet if Schoen is going to get to a point that he lets Jones walk. There is a very real world where he places the NEFT on Jones and if Jones gets an offer Schoen is uncomfortable with, he takes the picks and lets him walk
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In comment 16051460 chick310 said:
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The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
Ok, your whole plan is about money and not really whether it can improve the roster spot?
Yes, if you pick a QB at 25, he had better be better than Jones. And Schoen has already made up his mind that Jones is better than what else there is available. If Schoen felt he could do equally as well picking a QB at 25 over Jones, he would let Jones walk.
Yes $3 mill is cheaper than $40 mill, but by the same logic, Taylor would be a lot cheaper too - and at least we know he can actually play QB in the NFL.
To be fair, we don’t know yet if Schoen is going to get to a point that he lets Jones walk. There is a very real world where he places the NEFT on Jones and if Jones gets an offer Schoen is uncomfortable with, he takes the picks and lets him walk
Nobody is giving two 1st rounders for Jones. Teams are not that desperate to give two 1sts for DJ. Even the biggest Jones supporters would not claim that.
If Houston came in with their 1st this year maybe Schoen deals him...but we all know that is not happening.
Colin, I just don't think this GM messes around. He has clearly stated that they have placed values on their assets and have walk away numbers. He has also stated that he is not afraid to use the tag if DJ won't accept the valuation they have slotted him for. Clearly they are talking about the non-exclusive tag if DJ is at 45 and the Giants are in the 35-39 range. In light of several other contracts coming up, I don't think giving up on their stated position is good for future bargaining. Adding up the tea leaves, a 45 million AVV this year seems highly improbable.
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It seems some on here are willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house for Jones.
No, though there are some here who are realistic about the market for Jones. At least that's how I see it.
You reacted to my post by saying "no." My post clearly said "Some." And you said "No."
Are you saying there is no one who has unrealistic view of paying a very high cost for Jones/looking at alternatives?
Or is it you just wanted to be contrarian and didn't like the tone of the post?
You said some here are “willing to sell the wife, the kids, the house”, which is not only not a “realistic” take but rather hyperbolic. I just said no that’s not what some here are doing. Some here are being realistic about the market for Jones. And you’re the one complaining. Wow, just wow.
But SOME are NOT. I didn't say "ALL." As a result, I AGREE with YOU. SOME are being realistic.
And yet SOME are NOT.
And cna you explain why an obvious hperbole is "wrong?"
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In comment 16050872 Colin@gbn said:
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I'm kind of with Milton here. If the Giants are willing to pay DJ $35M then trust me $45M just ain't that big a difference. And the fact is that if the Giants win going forward no is going to care what his cap hit is. And if they don't we will be fucked but not because of Jones' cap hit but because we don't have a QB. Fact is it appears that Schoen/Daboll think the team is pretty close to being ready to really rock and roll and have hitched their wagon to DJ not that they have any other realistic choices at this time. And once you have done that you go all in (within reason) because its really really hard to win it all in the NFL.
I don't agree with this on certain levels. One is that Imo what you're saying is the trap that big markets fall into why they fail. That "it's only $10m more. Well, that's the reason why you don't sign in the past a DE like Chris Long.
And you have to remember this a chat board that we share ideas. Some of us do think an extra $10m is a lot. And if it fails and the Giants are lousy the next several years in which Jones sucks you have to understand that some of us are going to be mad at Giants Mgmt, right?
And you better believe that if we signed Jones for $40m-plus and it turns out to be awful that there will be posters / some in the media that will say that we HAD to do it and NO ONE was saying we shouldn't.
As a result, if they do go all-in and i doesn't work out, then 2 years or maybe three down the road they would deserve to be ripped for it. Because they DO have alternatives.
Dave Gettleman misunderstood the talent for his team. It is highly possible that we have the same thing happening here.
I agree with most of your post but your last sentence is asinine. How many times has Schoen mentioned the team has a ton of holes to fill? He’s been incredibly forthright in where he thinks this team is and why getting these guys signed is such a tricky situation. So, no, it IS NOT “highly probable the same thing is happening here”. Shown knows exactly what the talent level of this team is. He’s said so a million times this offseason if you’ve been paying attention
I responded to Colin's comment in quotes below:
"Fact is it appears that Schoen/Daboll think the team is pretty close to being ready to really rock and roll"
If the Giants think they are pretty close to be ready-to-rock-n-roll as Colin has suggested in which Mgmt thinks so, - then how does your comment to me that Schoen believes he has a lot of holes ring true?
If you have a lot of holes - how can you say that you are "ready to rock n roll?"
I do think they have players that are ascending and will be part of a contending core in a year or two. But that doesn't include a RB who has lost a step or more going into his 6th season.
The Giants need speed on speed on both sides of the ball, they need run stoppers on the DL and they need two starting ILBs. They need more edge pass rushers. They need a center and two guards and a #1 and #2 WR. They need at TE #1 or #2.And if Barkley leaves they need RBs plural. So of those needs can be found at reasonable prices in FA and the rest need to come from the 2022 and 2023 drat classes.
There are gapping holes at the top of their depth chart at multiple positions on both sides of the ball.
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The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
Ok, your whole plan is about money and not really whether it can improve the roster spot?
Yes, if you pick a QB at 25, he had better be better than Jones. And Schoen has already made up his mind that Jones is better than what else there is available. If Schoen felt he could do equally as well picking a QB at 25 over Jones, he would let Jones walk.
Yes $3 mill is cheaper than $40 mill, but by the same logic, Taylor would be a lot cheaper too - and at least we know he can actually play QB in the NFL.
No you didn't read. I said both from an evaluation and price tag perspective.
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Was thinking about all this overnight and started to wonder if there actually is a walk away number or even a franchise. We keep thinking that the Giants main goal here is to keep the cap in check. My guess is that their real goal is to win a Super Bowl and that they have concluded that they can do so with Jones. He's the QB THE most important component on the team (and whatever is #2 isn't even close) and you aren't going to win one without one. And you aren't going to let him walk to save a few million bucks on the cap. I am also wondering if the Giants really don't want to use the FT on him. Cause if they do and the team takes off like they hope/expect he will command a much bigger deal next year. Get him signed now - even for something like $45M - and 2-3 years down the road it will look like genius when the other top teams are paying their QBs upwards of $60M. In many ways the negotiations here are really about 2025, 2026 etc. The agents can see where all this is going with QB salaries and don't want to be left too far behind, but don't have a ton of leverage. Time will tell.
Colin, I just don't think this GM messes around. He has clearly stated that they have placed values on their assets and have walk away numbers. He has also stated that he is not afraid to use the tag if DJ won't accept the valuation they have slotted him for. Clearly they are talking about the non-exclusive tag if DJ is at 45 and the Giants are in the 35-39 range. In light of several other contracts coming up, I don't think giving up on their stated position is good for future bargaining. Adding up the tea leaves, a 45 million AVV this year seems highly improbable.
Would suggest Colin's post conflates these two concepts: 1) Schoen should conclude that Jones is worth the overpay now because he is convinced Jones can win a superbowl 2) QBs salaries are going up anyway "so what the hell" and aborb the overpay
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If he makes free agency, are multiple teams getting in a bidding war over his services?
I would love to know this. This has NYG bidding against themselves written all over it.
I'd bet good money the market outside of 1925 Giants Way Dr views Jones as a $30M AAV QB...tops. The smart play is to hedge with a NEFT (I prefer the TT) and dare New Team Jones to get his big offer.
How many times do we have to drill it into your thick skull. Transition tags are useless, and they've only been used four times in the past decade in the entire league. Worst case scenario if Joe Schoen can't come to an agreement with Jones is franchise tag at $32 million and trade for a bunch of picks
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The QB that may be available drafting 25th doesn't have to be better than Jones out of the gate, he only has to project better in Schoen's longer term evaluation.
And another key point is the player drafted in 25th slot will cost the NY Giants approx. $3M/year for the next 4 years, slightly less than $35M/year.
Ok, your whole plan is about money and not really whether it can improve the roster spot?
Yes, if you pick a QB at 25, he had better be better than Jones. And Schoen has already made up his mind that Jones is better than what else there is available. If Schoen felt he could do equally as well picking a QB at 25 over Jones, he would let Jones walk.
Yes $3 mill is cheaper than $40 mill, but by the same logic, Taylor would be a lot cheaper too - and at least we know he can actually play QB in the NFL.
Schoen would just as likely tag and trade in that scenario so he can get picks and move up from 25 to get a QB
Not gonna happen.
Hilarious.
Owner
GM
head Coach
Why?
The owner is making them do it?
That weak ass argument is protect your fragile opinion.
Wrong.
Own it.
You embarrass yourselves.
Owner
GM
head Coach
Why?
The owner is making them do it?
That weak ass argument is protect your fragile opinion.
Wrong.
Own it.
You embarrass yourselves.
So one good season out of how many and all of a sudden the Giants brain trust is back to above reproach?
Completely invalid perspective to think that this team is capable of putting personal feelings about a QB above rational business decisions?
This is where we get into the real offensive stuff. See you feel offended but I'm not sitting here telling you your opinion with less data than mine is invalid.
But you are telling me my opinion with more data to back it up is.
Appeals to authority are not facts. I don't know why people treat them as such even after spectacular failures right here on this board.
And yes indeed I can be both very impressed with JS and BD and also worried about how people that run an organization can ruin the work of even the very finest of their employees.
You should be as weary as the Giants owners because you share the same problem here. The Giants consistently overrate their own performance, the performance of their players, their approach, their people, especially new hires who were all the solution to everything before they ever fielded a team.
You can think I'm off base for saying that, that is fine. I think you are ignoring a rather large data set of them doing that. You want to paint the more data driven perspective as crazy and that is crazy.
Quote:
All seem to want Jones back and are willing to pay him like the face of the franchise.
Owner
GM
head Coach
Why?
The owner is making them do it?
That weak ass argument is protect your fragile opinion.
Wrong.
Own it.
You embarrass yourselves.
So one good season out of how many and all of a sudden the Giants brain trust is back to above reproach?
Completely invalid perspective to think that this team is capable of putting personal feelings about a QB above rational business decisions?
This is where we get into the real offensive stuff. See you feel offended but I'm not sitting here telling you your opinion with less data than mine is invalid.
But you are telling me my opinion with more data to back it up is.
Appeals to authority are not facts. I don't know why people treat them as such even after spectacular failures right here on this board.
And yes indeed I can be both very impressed with JS and BD and also worried about how people that run an organization can ruin the work of even the very finest of their employees.
You should be as weary as the Giants owners because you share the same problem here. The Giants consistently overrate their own performance, the performance of their players, their approach, their people, especially new hires who were all the solution to everything before they ever fielded a team.
You can think I'm off base for saying that, that is fine. I think you are ignoring a rather large data set of them doing that. You want to paint the more data driven perspective as crazy and that is crazy.
I am not going to to get drawn into whether or not he should be signed. I do not care at all about your data.
Worthless in this case.
The team won a playoff game away.
They want to win more in 2023.
The easiest way to do that is to sign Jones to a multi year deal that gives them room in 2023.
My opinion is based on the belief that the Giants believe they can win a Super bowl with Jones. I share that belief. There is no appeal to authority.
I think Daboll's internal scouting of Jones is better than your data.
Not unreasonable to believe.
I'm not claiming I know more about if DJ will be good than BD.
But life isn't about single skills. It isn't just about a binary of is DJ good or not good?
There are finances involved and calculations and probabilities of future wins based on how that players contract will affect resource efficiency. That is more JS than BD anyway but that doesn't really matter.
To disavow the idea that someone else has the capabilities to have a valid opinion on that is closed minded. The fact is those are tough calculations to make and easy ones to get wrong even for the very best. And personal opinions and politics can 100% make it even more complicated to get those things right.
I think we will regret giving DJ a big contract. I'm open to the idea that I will be wrong. But it is you that is off base if you think I'm coming from such an uninformed place that you KNOW I'm wrong already because of the glorious experts at the top of the Giants that ran this team into the ground.
How often do you see a CEO run a company into the ground to the bottom of their industry and keep the job? (Slim to none is the answer but let's keep going)
How often do you see a poor performing CEO glossed over because they made a few good recent hires? Is the problem of them leading a poor performing organization before just thrown out the window?
That is because leadership at the top is what matters by far the most and we know John Mara is capable of being a very poor leader and very poor leaders don't have a great track record of suddenly becoming good ones.
And it makes me even more nervous when I see a guy having an open multi-year love affair with his QB, including blaming everyone but him for his failures. Then that QB fires his agent, sits in outrageous demands that has the rest of the league saying the Giants are willing to pay more for this guy than us. Yes that is just a litany of red flags. You want to ignore them fine but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
And who the hell says this is easy for BD or JS? Whatever decision they make I'm sure they labored over and won't be nearly as sure they made the right answer as you are about them. These things are very grey when the resource efficiency is so complex. And it is a terrible thing to have to decide to overpay a QB or start at square one for the most important position on the field.
In a toss up, which paying DJ $40M absolutely is in terms of the ripple effects and calculations associated with them you may just go with your bosses favorite player. And that doesn't make you some pushover it makes you a smart person and I am very much not suggesting JS is a dumb person just because I'm saying in the toss up I'd lean the other way. You are the one simplifying my argument to "JS is just being bossed around by Mara if he signs Jones." But it is 100000% easier to be objective if your boss doesn't make his feelings so clear. Not that it is a fair expectation but it is accurate to say.
You are missing all the grey here. So look at it.