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Pelissero: Jones’ agents leaving Indianapolis tomorrow

Vin_Cuccs : 3/4/2023 11:04 pm
Via Tom Pelissero of NFL Network on Twitter:

Quote:
After several days of meetings at the combine, #Giants officials and Daniel Jones’ agents from Athletes First are expected to leave Indianapolis on Sunday with no contract resolution in sight, per sources.

Clock continuing to tick towards Tuesday’s franchise tag deadline.


If this has been posted, I will gladly delete.
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So he says no contract resolution in sight. Says who?  
Blue21 : 3/5/2023 8:51 am : link
We ve heard all kinds of statements. Did he think it would be done before they left the combine? Why? Who's his source? Doesn't even say he has one.
Just this year  
ajr2456 : 3/5/2023 8:52 am : link
You got very good production from Etienne, Walker, Allgeier, Pierce, Hall and Pacheco. All first year players.

The Giants will be fine if they let Barkley walk.
RE: Meh  
bw in dc : 3/5/2023 8:53 am : link
In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.


Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.
Always Been A Jones Supporter  
Jeffrey : 3/5/2023 9:05 am : link
but there has to be a point of reason beyond which the Giants cut their losses. The kid has had two reasonably good years and while he was certainly hampered by the lack of an OL and decent WRs, if his contract comes in too high he will continue to be hampered by his poor OL and lack of WRs because of the lack of assets to build these units up.

Giants have so many needs the question is whether it is easier to replace Jones than to try and patch together OLs and WRs who are unproven or very limited for the next several years.

Hope that reason prevails and the team can work something out with this kid, but if not go build the rest of the team and draft a young QB to develop. I think that the coaching staff proved last year that they can coach up a QB by scheming to his strengths.
I find it odd  
winoguy : 3/5/2023 9:07 am : link
that some people have no problem letting the QB walk and replaced with draft picks , but insist we can't let a RB go ....
The Jones Team has to be careful...they may get the blame  
upnyg : 3/5/2023 9:09 am : link
for Barkley not coming back. Its been said many times, but the longer this takes on Jones, the shift will be on Barkley being left out.

Players want their team mates to get paid, but they want to keep the good guys too. This has a chance of falling back on Jones and making it easier for the Giants to draft a QB and a RB in this years draft,

Then another "show-Me"year for Jones while a Rookie is waiting.

We will see!
Sports Agents ... the lowest form of white collar life.  
Spider56 : 3/5/2023 9:11 am : link
They all suck.
RE: I find it odd  
BigBlueShock : 3/5/2023 9:11 am : link
In comment 16051475 winoguy said:
Quote:
that some people have no problem letting the QB walk and replaced with draft picks , but insist we can't let a RB go ....

I’m not sure why you find it odd. It’s not as black and white as just saying QB vs. RB. One guy wants $45M or more per year and the other guy isn’t close to that. I’m not defending either side but wondering why some don’t want to pay Jones that much is the odd thing.
RE: RE: Meh  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:11 am : link
In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.


You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 3/5/2023 9:13 am : link
Again, I don't blame him for wanting to score as much coin as he can. But the sense I'm getting is that DJ thinks he's worth a lot more than the NFL-including the Giants-believe he is. It's going to be fascinating to see how this shakes out.
RE: Sports Agents ... the lowest form of white collar life.  
ajr2456 : 3/5/2023 9:14 am : link
In comment 16051479 Spider56 said:
Quote:
They all suck.


I’m offended
Saqoun  
ajr2456 : 3/5/2023 9:15 am : link
Isn’t as good as Faulk, Peterson, Sanders or Jim Brown.
I wonder if a franchise tag  
uconn18 : 3/5/2023 9:21 am : link
Puts Anthony Richardson in play.
All depends on how much Dabs likes him
Stapleton this morning  
Saquon'sQuadz : 3/5/2023 9:26 am : link
https://twitter.com/art_stapleton/status/1632382302582874117?s=46&t=YrR61_saC7qZ_Y4dki-UOQ
BB'56...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2023 9:26 am : link
Those examples you cite are when the game was played much differently than today's game.

I wish the game was still more "smashed-mouth", but it isn't. And that's mostly because rules encouraging more passing, the evolution of the passing game from high school through college, and the shrinking supply of quality OLs.
RE: RE: RE: Meh  
sb from NYT Forum : 3/5/2023 9:27 am : link
In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:


You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop.. [/quote]

The Vikings had only one playoff win with Peterson. They had only 4 winning seasons in the 10 years he was there. Everyone else played a generation ago or longer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Meh  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:34 am : link
In comment 16051497 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:


You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..


The Vikings had only one playoff win with Peterson. They had only 4 winning seasons in the 10 years he was there. Everyone else played a generation ago or longer. [/quote]

Wtf does “played a generation ago” mean? Does it matter WHEN greatness prevailed? Lawd..
Negotiate,,  
Goin Deep : 3/5/2023 9:34 am : link
I know nobody knows
where it comes or where it goes
dream on dream on
dream it util your dreams come true
Aerosmith
RE: BB'56...  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:36 am : link
In comment 16051496 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Those examples you cite are when the game was played much differently than today's game.

I wish the game was still more "smashed-mouth", but it isn't. And that's mostly because rules encouraging more passing, the evolution of the passing game from high school through college, and the shrinking supply of quality OLs.


BS. Effectiveness is effectiveness, regardless of what style of ball you play. Each person cited was effective enough to make their teams contenders..Without them, they were pretenders, in the main
negotiate..  
Goin Deep : 3/5/2023 9:37 am : link
Until
RE: RE: I don't care for the way Jones has handled negotiations  
Brown_Hornet : 3/5/2023 9:37 am : link
In comment 16051405 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051396 kelly said:


Quote:


Quarterbacks have long careers and he will make plenty of money. But 45 million is rediculous. 15 touchdowns!

Draft Stetson Bennet and spend the money and draft picks to build the roster.

Let Jones play some where else. He's worn out his welcome as far as I am concerned.



Why take this personally and why make assumptions about what’s happening based on reports that may not be accurate?
UConn, spot-on.
Way too much hand wringing based on the information we have and the sources that it is coming from.
Add to that the fact that we don't know exactly how the Giants feel about DJ.
there's one thing that flies in the face of your argument Bruce  
gidiefor : Mod : 3/5/2023 9:39 am : link
Barkley and Jones have not been able to beat the NFCE Eagles and Cowboys - and that ain't gonna happen without additions in areas of need -- so if you ask me prioritizing them over building up the rest of the areas in need - may not be the best strategy. It will lead to years of mediocrity with a few fun flashes sprinkled in.
RE: RE: RE: Meh  
The Dude : 3/5/2023 9:40 am : link
In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.



You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..


You're rattling off names from a different generation. Meaningless to this discussion unfortunately. And AP, Vikings made the playoffs 4 times in those 10 years. Won a game in the playoffs just once.

Even the chiefs took their medicine recently. Many thought the Clyde Edwards Helaire pick was strange at the time, a luxury pick for a team picking 32nd. They revamped their O Line and won the superbowl with a 7th rounder in Pacheco and a journeyman in Mckinnon years later.
RE: RE: RE: I don't care for the way Jones has handled negotiations  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:42 am : link
In comment 16051505 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 16051405 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 16051396 kelly said:


Quote:


Quarterbacks have long careers and he will make plenty of money. But 45 million is rediculous. 15 touchdowns!

Draft Stetson Bennet and spend the money and draft picks to build the roster.

Let Jones play some where else. He's worn out his welcome as far as I am concerned.



Why take this personally and why make assumptions about what’s happening based on reports that may not be accurate?

UConn, spot-on.
Way too much hand wringing based on the information we have and the sources that it is coming from.
Add to that the fact that we don't know exactly how the Giants feel about DJ.


To me, Garafolo is the best out there, perhaps by a mile. Watched the podcast with him and Schmeelk and in the 10 minutes or so he was on, he said absolutely nothing. That is, nothing more than we have opined without the sources he has..

This time of year and draft time has by far the most speculative BS out there, yet there are people who buy into the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” stuff..The smoke/fire stuff is the same repetitive bullshit we hear ad. auseam
RE: RE: RE: RE: Meh  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:43 am : link
In comment 16051508 The Dude said:
Quote:
In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.



You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..



You're rattling off names from a different generation. Meaningless to this discussion unfortunately. And AP, Vikings made the playoffs 4 times in those 10 years. Won a game in the playoffs just once.

Even the chiefs took their medicine recently. Many thought the Clyde Edwards Helaire pick was strange at the time, a luxury pick for a team picking 32nd. They revamped their O Line and won the superbowl with a 7th rounder in Pacheco and a journeyman in Mckinnon years later.


Oh please. If I had Mahomes, I too would be fine with a lower round back as well who obviously benefits greatly from Mahomes’ presence
RE: there's one thing that flies in the face of your argument Bruce  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:46 am : link
In comment 16051507 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Barkley and Jones have not been able to beat the NFCE Eagles and Cowboys - and that ain't gonna happen without additions in areas of need -- so if you ask me prioritizing them over building up the rest of the areas in need - may not be the best strategy. It will lead to years of mediocrity with a few fun flashes sprinkled in.


True, but without Barkley, there’s no playoffs, not even close, despite losing to the Cowboys and Eagles..

Of course we’re not going deep without additions as you stated. But at least we made the playoffs despite all those holes that need fortifying
RE: RE: Meh  
Sammo85 : 3/5/2023 9:47 am : link
In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.


And you’re living in delusional territory thinking that we can fix all those areas elsewhere in one off-season. It will take at minimum two. Barkley staying here buys you time to use the draft and develop process properly.
RE: RE: RE: Meh  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:48 am : link
In comment 16051516 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.



And you’re living in delusional territory thinking that we can fix all those areas elsewhere in one off-season. It will take at minimum two. Barkley staying here buys you time to use the draft and develop process properly.


Per usual, you stated this more succinctly that I did/could
RE: RE: BB'56...  
bw in dc : 3/5/2023 9:49 am : link
In comment 16051503 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051496 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Those examples you cite are when the game was played much differently than today's game.

I wish the game was still more "smashed-mouth", but it isn't. And that's mostly because rules encouraging more passing, the evolution of the passing game from high school through college, and the shrinking supply of quality OLs.



BS. Effectiveness is effectiveness, regardless of what style of ball you play. Each person cited was effective enough to make their teams contenders..Without them, they were pretenders, in the main


No, it's reality. If you want to keep swimming against the current than your thinking will fall further and further behind...
RE: RE: RE: BB'56...  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:50 am : link
In comment 16051519 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16051503 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 16051496 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Those examples you cite are when the game was played much differently than today's game.

I wish the game was still more "smashed-mouth", but it isn't. And that's mostly because rules encouraging more passing, the evolution of the passing game from high school through college, and the shrinking supply of quality OLs.



BS. Effectiveness is effectiveness, regardless of what style of ball you play. Each person cited was effective enough to make their teams contenders..Without them, they were pretenders, in the main



No, it's reality. If you want to keep swimming against the current than your thinking will fall further and further behind...


Reality? To? Lol
Ok, nice back and forth.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 9:51 am : link
Gotta work out now…Later
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Meh  
The Dude : 3/5/2023 9:54 am : link
In comment 16051513 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051508 The Dude said:


Quote:


In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.



You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..



You're rattling off names from a different generation. Meaningless to this discussion unfortunately. And AP, Vikings made the playoffs 4 times in those 10 years. Won a game in the playoffs just once.

Even the chiefs took their medicine recently. Many thought the Clyde Edwards Helaire pick was strange at the time, a luxury pick for a team picking 32nd. They revamped their O Line and won the superbowl with a 7th rounder in Pacheco and a journeyman in Mckinnon years later.



Oh please. If I had Mahomes, I too would be fine with a lower round back as well who obviously benefits greatly from Mahomes’ presence


There ya go! You're making a good point. Its a passing league.

What about the rest of the final 4 this year. Eagles ran 3 rb's, sometimes 4 a game. a 2nd rounder, a 5th rounder and a 6th rounder...again with a good Oline. Bengals basically had a 50/50 split at the end of the year with a 2nd rounder (who they already may have to cut cause of his 2nd contract) and a 4th round journeyman, Perine. The niners traded* for a top RB because the last time sunk too much into him. And for the past 5 years niners have ran 6th rounders and journeyman into the NFC championship and Superbowl.

We can stop citing guys that played 20 plus years ago because the game has changed and roster building has changed.
RE: I wonder if a franchise tag  
Pepe LePugh : 3/5/2023 9:55 am : link
In comment 16051493 uconn18 said:
Quote:
Puts Anthony Richardson in play.
All depends on how much Dabs likes him


Also depends on how much Raiders, Falcons, and Panthers……with picks 7,8,9 like him. All have more draft leverage to make a play for Richardson than Giants. That’s assuming Colts, Seahawks, Texans with their top 5 pick and/or multiple first round picks don’t consider Richardson to be one of the top 3 QBs available.
RE: Sports Agents ... the lowest form of white collar life.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/5/2023 9:57 am : link
In comment 16051479 Spider56 said:
Quote:
They all suck.

If you think they're so terrible, you should see the athletes who don't use them.
RE: Saqoun  
nochance : 3/5/2023 10:02 am : link
In comment 16051488 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Isn’t as good as Faulk, Peterson, Sanders or Jim Brown.



And not as necessary. The game has changed a great deal lately favoring passing attacks. Thats why RB's don't make the big money they used to in comparison with other positions
RE: RE: Saqoun  
The Dude : 3/5/2023 10:07 am : link
In comment 16051538 nochance said:
Quote:
In comment 16051488 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Isn’t as good as Faulk, Peterson, Sanders or Jim Brown.




And not as necessary. The game has changed a great deal lately favoring passing attacks. Thats why RB's don't make the big money they used to in comparison with other positions


I typed a whole paragraph above, but this ^^^ is putting it more concisely lol. +1
Looks  
AcidTest : 3/5/2023 10:17 am : link
like the NEFT for Jones, which is the best, or "least bad," option IMO. Make him prove at least for one more year that last season wasn't a fluke. I have no problem with Jones asking for $45M, but like many people here, I'd have a big problem with the Giants paying him that amount.

I don't see any team trading two #1's for Jones AND paying him $40M-$45M a year. I said yesterday the Jets might because they have an excellent defense and are somewhat desperate having wasted two top five picks in the last five years on QBs. But I don't think even they would do so, especially since they could just sign Carr and keep their picks. Carr isn't nearly as mobile as Jones, but that extra mobility isn't worth one, let alone, two #1's.

I do agree that using the NEFT on Jones means Barkley is likely gone.

No interest in Bennett, and I doubt the Giants do either.
From  
AcidTest : 3/5/2023 10:22 am : link
the film I've watched, Richardson looks more like an athlete playing QB than an athletic QB. But there is no way he makes it to #25 so the point is moot.

The Giants not picking up Jones's fifth year option was the right decision, at least partially because the difference between that and the NEFT is only about $10M. We can easily absorb that difference given our cap space, especially since we'll get even more if Barkley leaves or we restructure Leo, or both.

I'd be really surprised if Jones is not the QB for the Giants in 2023.
RE: RE: RE: Meh  
HomerJones45 : 3/5/2023 10:30 am : link
In comment 16051482 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051466 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051418 Sammo85 said:


Quote:


As for Barkley, I think Jones needs Barkley next season a lot more than the other way around if that plays out. It may help fast forward a roster and talent pivot to come on offense for 2024 but this offense will be ugly as hell next year with no Barkley.



Ugly?

So, if we upgrade the OL, add more WR skill, get healthy at TE, and modernize at RB with RBBC, the offense will have a pullback in 2022 because of the loss of Barkley?

The future of this offense is Jones and better surrounding parts. Not Barkley.

I'm continually amazed how many posters think a high-priced, bell cow RB is still a winning formula in today's NFL.



You’re surprised? Do you think Warner and co., would have been as effective without the all-around play of Faulk? Or AP in Minny? Payton in Chicago? Sanders carrying Detroit to the playoffs on his back? Jimmy Brown for Cleveland? All these teams, save for perhaps Detroit, had supportive talent on both sides of the ball and still would have been struggling to make the playoffs, imv..These are just a few examples off the top of my head of first round backs being difference-makers.

It would be easier and more pudent, imo, to keep Barkley than it would be to upgrade the OL, get healthier at TE, add more WR skill and modernize at RB all in one fell swoop..
Good post Doc.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BB'56...  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/5/2023 10:35 am : link
In comment 16051522 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16051519 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 16051503 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 16051496 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Those examples you cite are when the game was played much differently than today's game.

I wish the game was still more "smashed-mouth", but it isn't. And that's mostly because rules encouraging more passing, the evolution of the passing game from high school through college, and the shrinking supply of quality OLs.



BS. Effectiveness is effectiveness, regardless of what style of ball you play. Each person cited was effective enough to make their teams contenders..Without them, they were pretenders, in the main



No, it's reality. If you want to keep swimming against the current than your thinking will fall further and further behind...



Reality? To? Lol

The players that you would need in order to pull off that antiquated style simply do not exist or develop in the quantity or with the frequency that a team would need in order to successfully replicate a style of play that was much more common when those necessary players (most specifically, the OL) did exist more commonly. And none of that acknowledges the rule changes that the NFL has put into place with the sole intent of benefitting NFL passing games.

BW is right about swimming upstream. It's very difficult to win in the NFL based on nostalgia when the rules themselves as well as the evolving player archetypes make it extremely inefficient to do so unless you are taking advantage of the few significant advantages that the cap rules plus established wage scales in order to build your roster.

TL;DR, if you're going to build your team in a way that it reduces your reliance on the passing game, you need to reduce your spend on the passing game. If you're going to follow the blueprint set forth by those championship-caliber teams who were built around elite RBs, you need to also look at what percentage of their overall salary table was allocated to the QB and WR, and try to replicate that roster/cap construction accordingly.

Paying a QB like DJ $40-$45M AAV does not compute with building a smashmouth RB-centric offense, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Meh  
bw in dc : 3/5/2023 10:41 am : link
In comment 16051516 Sammo85 said:
Quote:

And you’re living in delusional territory thinking that we can fix all those areas elsewhere in one off-season. It will take at minimum two. Barkley staying here buys you time to use the draft and develop process properly.


Keeping Barkley doesn't buy time. It slows time because that money could be better spent on more critical positions.

Your approach is backwards. Adding a high-priced RB like Barkley is a luxury item for teams that have the infrastructure already in place and are looking for one more piece to challenge for a SB.

It doesn't work? Really?  
HomerJones45 : 3/5/2023 10:42 am : link
How do you think we made the playoffs? We were 6-2 playing that style. Proceeded to go 3-5-1 after we "opened it up".
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Meh  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/5/2023 10:58 am : link
In comment 16051513 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Oh please. If I had Mahomes, I too would be fine with a lower round back as well who obviously benefits greatly from Mahomes’ presence

So is paying DJ within $3M AAV of Mahomes the solution? Is $3M variance in AAV enough to bridge the gap in QB talent? Now add Barkley at, say, $12M AAV (which would be very favorable for the Giants) - now, with the $3M windfall the Giants have for being microscopically cheaper at QB, plus the additional spend at RB (Barkley @ $12M would be twice what KC spent on all their RBs combined in 2022), the Giants would be at a -$3M deficit compared to the KC roster before we get into the rest of the offense.

DJ needs more than $3M worth of help to bridge the gap between he and Mahomes, IMO. If DJ had Kelce, that would certainly help significantly, but shouldn't Barkley be your Kelce in this scenario? And we know that Barkley isn't enough for DJ to be on Mahomes' level, we've seen that even in DJ's best season. We can probably all agree that DJ needs at least one true alpha in the passing game also, and we can only speculate as to whether that alone is enough.

That alpha WR is likely to cost ~$20M. Maybe you can make it work, because of Barkley, with a lower tier WR1, but that's still probably around $16M. Now subtract the variance in RB cost, and DJ would need to be at least $10M cheaper than Mahomes just to even have a chance at leveling the playing field.

So when DJ asks for $45M AAV, it means either running back this offense pretty much as/is, and relying solely on a draft pick to provide that needed offensive lift (not exactly a 100% likelihood at #25 overall - we could get lucky and get a Justin Jefferson type, or we could get a Jalan Reagor or Kadarius Toney clone), or letting Barkley walk and going with a cheaper RBBC in order to fund the additional toys DJ needs in order to make any contract for him worthwhile. If you're not giving DJ any upgrades at all, why bother paying him even a small fortune? Something on the offense needs to be upgraded in order to justify keeping DJ. Paying DJ what he's currently asking, and keeping Barkley at what we expect he's asking will leave very little left to improve the offense unless it comes at the expense of the defense.

And is DJ the expensive QB you really want for a team that gets top-heavy with offensive spending on the cap and has to cover up for what could end up being a leaky defense once so many resources are shifted to the offensive side of the ball? And if he is, wouldn't you still rather give him the pieces he'd need to be able to strike quickly more frequently so that the Giants can successfully keep up with their own weaknesses on defense that would potentially result from that roster construction?

IMO, DJ and Barkley can only both be kept if their combined AAV lands at or below $50M. Once their combined cap costs exceed that level, it will come with a detrimental impact on Schoen's ability to fix the other holes on the roster, some of which are necessary in order for DJ to achieve anything close to approaching what his new contract will be worth.

If DJ asks for and receives $45M AAV, that's probably the end of Barkley's time with the Giants, strictly as a function of cap management, IMO.
RE: It doesn't work? Really?  
The Dude : 3/5/2023 11:13 am : link
In comment 16051585 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
How do you think we made the playoffs? We were 6-2 playing that style. Proceeded to go 3-5-1 after we "opened it up".


And the schedule. but yes, keep thinking its 1986. Just look around the league. Or the superbowl!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Meh  
Sammo85 : 3/5/2023 11:15 am : link
In comment 16051584 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16051516 Sammo85 said:


Quote:



And you’re living in delusional territory thinking that we can fix all those areas elsewhere in one off-season. It will take at minimum two. Barkley staying here buys you time to use the draft and develop process properly.



Keeping Barkley doesn't buy time. It slows time because that money could be better spent on more critical positions.

Your approach is backwards. Adding a high-priced RB like Barkley is a luxury item for teams that have the infrastructure already in place and are looking for one more piece to challenge for a SB.


Sorry but we will need to part ways amicably here in this debate and simply agree that we do not agree. There is too much “infrastructure” that has to be brought in to meet your expectations. We are not in a bargaining position with cap space or draft capital to build around Jones solely this off-season. Folks need to temper their expectations for a hard offensive regression next year if Barkley isn’t here.
RE: It doesn't work? Really?  
The Dude : 3/5/2023 11:16 am : link
In comment 16051585 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
How do you think we made the playoffs? We were 6-2 playing that style. Proceeded to go 3-5-1 after we "opened it up".


And that 1 rb we rely on shockingly...slowed down.
Last word (to bw) on this topic on this thread:  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 11:24 am : link
The first round backs I mentioned above, would EXCEL in this or ANY era, so different game “then” doesn’t cut it..

See you on another thread, hopefully lne on college players as that’s where I can mostly learn from you.. 😎
about college players  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2023 11:25 am : link
.
The surprise record is clouding a lot of people’s minds  
ajr2456 : 3/5/2023 11:26 am : link
The Giants won a lot of one score games, well above the average. That’s going to regress to the mean.

If two games didn’t bounce the Giants way and they were 7-9-1 would Barkley be looked at as a need to sign to a long term deal?
It's like no one thinks any player on the Giants should get paid  
Boatie Warrant : 3/5/2023 2:36 pm : link
Whatever

DJ and SB are core players currently on this offense. Can they be replaced? Not seeing it this off-season but of course they can. Every player is replaceable at some point, but some are not in specific time frames.

Is Henry replaceable with a late round RB on the Titans? Not right now he isn't.

The Superbowl is won with many different styles of play. Things change and comeback around eventually.

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