Mike Garafolo
@MikeGarafolo
The #Giants and QB Daniel Jones beat the clock on the franchise tag, agreeing to terms on a long-term deal, sources tell me and
@RapSheet
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Jones’ agents and the team worked hard to get this deal done in time. Jones has six fourth-quarter comebacks in his career. Make it seven.
wait for the numbers, but tagging SB is an immediate $10M cap hit, so I assume the year one hit for Jones's contract will be manageable in order to give them enough cap space to sign some FAs.
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Will need to see how much GTD, cap hits in years 3 and 4, how the dead money breaks down.
I’m okay with the deal. Okay with 40 AAV. He can run the offense,and he ran it at a high level down the stretch. He’s 25, has upside.
If you have any doubt- remember that Schoen and Daboll are smart - they’ve had him in the building, they know his worth better than we do. And they didn’t have to pay him- this was not their draft pick.
wait for the numbers, but tagging SB is an immediate $10M cap hit, so I assume the year one hit for Jones's contract will be manageable in order to give them enough cap space to sign some FAs.
They can still work out a deal with SB, so the cap hit could be lower
wait for the numbers, but tagging SB is an immediate $10M cap hit, so I assume the year one hit for Jones's contract will be manageable in order to give them enough cap space to sign some FAs.
I think I read that even with, say a 3 year deal with Barkley, the year 1 cap hit would still be $6-$7M.
Will need to see how much GTD, cap hits in years 3 and 4, how the dead money breaks down.
I’m okay with the deal. Okay with 40 AAV. He can run the offense,and he ran it at a high level down the stretch. He’s 25, has upside.
49aav if he plays like mahomes
If you have any doubt- remember that Schoen and Daboll are smart - they’ve had him in the building, they know his worth better than we do. And they didn’t have to pay him- this was not their draft pick.
who turned lemons into lemonade this year while throwing a league low # of picks. Puts him in Prescott & Stafford territory around 8th/9th in average per year while probably coming in less on the fully guarentees.
RE: If more money is in signing bonus that means cap hit goes down
wait for the numbers, but tagging SB is an immediate $10M cap hit, so I assume the year one hit for Jones's contract will be manageable in order to give them enough cap space to sign some FAs.
They can still work out a deal with SB, so the cap hit could be lower
True.
RE: If more money is in signing bonus that means cap hit goes down
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
Mind putting the rhetoric aside for just a few minutes? Let's celebrate the signing, thinking JS and BD made the right evaluation. You can go back on the attack later.
Everybody knows DJ has to live up to expectations. Duh.
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
It will be the Mara excuse for certain. You will hear a little bit of Schoen lacks experience in negotiating contracts like these but most of the excuses will center on Mara.
What we will not hear is that their perception of Jones' worth was so much different than Schoen's because they were wrong.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I think it means the opposite. I don’t think he’d get more than $100m guaranteed so that only leaves $18m spread over two years. Not ideal but not a death blow.
Fours years and beaucoup bucks, but if he delivers then extend him long term after two years and mitigate the back-end cap. Only the first two years matter here.
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
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7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
So awesome! Plan A for the offseason likely still in effect!
We keep a QB we can solidly win a SuperBowl with. We probably minimize our 1st and maybe 2nd year cap hit....we get to FT Barkley for a pretty manageable number...we modify/extend one of both of Williams and Dex, possibly Adoree to clear more cap space and off we go into FA!
Go GIANTS!!!
The next 2 year cap hits is the BIGGEST info I want to know right now
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
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7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Tom Rock, spot on..Hard, creative work indeed
Great. Since we have no other holes to fill.
WTF are you talking about? They NOW can address other areas..JFC
Depending on the structure of the deal, he will likely be the 13th or 14th highest paid QB once Hurts, Lamar, Burrow, and Herbert get their $45+ extensions.
Depending on the structure of the deal, he will likely be the 13th or 14th highest paid QB once Hurts, Lamar, Burrow, and Herbert get their $45+ extensions.
who don’t see this past season as a positive stepping stone in the career of Daniel Jones and that with the continuity and expertise that Daboll now provides, and competent roster building that Schoen now provides, we will see continued growth from Jones at a somewhat rapid pace compared to the couple of season before Daboll got here.
Schoen and Daboll just tied their NYG careers and maybe even more importantly their NFL careers to Daniel Jones for better or worse. That’s what they just told you. And don’t give me that this cake from Mara. If that was true the option would have been picked up last year.
LOL, so are you saying that the WR’s aren’t a problem? No need to seriously upgrade the unit?
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact; the unit is pretty bad. Maybe bumped up to mediocre on their best day.
Look around the league at cuts this week. It’s very hard to keep teams together paying even elite QBs big money. The supporting cast isn’t going to improve to elite without some serious draft luck. Jones now needs to be elite.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I'm not sure you're thinking of that correctly.
The guaranteed money getting paid out early is good. It makes it easier to escape the contract, or re-structure it. You want to get the big money out of the way now, so in year 3, if it's not working, you can move out without a time bomb of dead money.
LOL, so are you saying that the WR’s aren’t a problem? No need to seriously upgrade the unit?
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact; the unit is pretty bad. Maybe bumped up to mediocre on their best day.
Look around the league at cuts this week. It’s very hard to keep teams together paying even elite QBs big money. The supporting cast isn’t going to improve to elite without some serious draft luck. Jones now needs to be elite.
Dude you’re a ducking cronic complainer. If giants paid jones a bag of donuts you’d bitch and say not our Boston crème!
Mind putting the rhetoric aside for just a few minutes? Let's celebrate the signing, thinking JS and BD made the right evaluation. You can go back on the attack later.
Everybody knows DJ has to live up to expectations. Duh.
and as if having clowns for coaches for 2-3 years and the worst combination of OL and WRs in the league, are just silly illegitimate excuses.
What's going to make the "excuses era over" isn't Jones getting paid. It's good coaching (which we finally have), better pass pro (got better towards end of '22) and some legit WRs (which Schoen will be adding through draft and maybe FA or trade).
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
Albert Breer
@AlbertBreer
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44s
Giants QB Daniel Jones will take home $82 million over the first two years of his four-year, $160 million deal, per source. So the base of the first two years of his deal bests the three-year base in Geno Smith's deal.
no win situation, we sign the man, they overpaid, we dont sign him whos the alternative with fans, me personally I wouldve signed a vet and tag jones, just me.
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
no win situation, we sign the man, they overpaid, we dont sign him whos the alternative with fans, me personally I wouldve signed a vet and tag Barkley, just me.
the cap hit does. We don't know that yet. If they structured this right, its a market contract, the incentives give him numbers to shoot for (which benefit the won loss record), and allow for roster building. Keep your pants on, for crying out loud!
I think the $82 million number is being looked at wrong
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
I asked a question. I don’t root against anyone on the Giants.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I'm not sure you're thinking of that correctly.
The guaranteed money getting paid out early is good. It makes it easier to escape the contract, or re-structure it. You want to get the big money out of the way now, so in year 3, if it's not working, you can move out without a time bomb of dead money.
I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but if he is getting 82 over the first 2 years, that means at least 82 needs to be spent on the cap in the next 3 years (if cut after 2). For the cap hit to get significantly under 32, more of that money is pushed back, so unless next year is a massive hit, there would be very significant dead cap in year 3 if cut. That doesn't account for if there is any non GTD money in year 2, which would add to the total
Next Gen Stats
@NextGenStats
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19m
Daniel Jones displayed improvement under duress in 2022, completing +4.3% of his passes over expected when pressured (3rd in NFL).
Jones has been pressured on 37.5% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL in 2019, the only QB over 35%.
Next Gen Stats
@NextGenStats
·
19m
Daniel Jones displayed improvement under duress in 2022, completing +4.3% of his passes over expected when pressured (3rd in NFL).
Jones has been pressured on 37.5% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL in 2019, the only QB over 35%.
Wow. Better not let the “no more excuses” crowd see that stat.
But guaranteed money is really the heavyweight in these deals. Everything else you can play around with, and if they're paying out the bulk of the guarantees on the front end, this does give the giants more flexibility down the line. It's not an obvious 'out' like an option year, but it helps, doesn't hurt, IMO. Jones gets the security of guaranteed money now, the Giants have a QB under contract and they can re-evaluate the relationship in 2+ years.
No way, the first year of Jones' contract on the cap is WAY below $40 million. In fact it has to be way below the $32M tag number
Report said $82 million guaranteed the first two years.
That's the cash in Jones' pocket. It's not the cap.
His bonus will be amortized.
the 82 will be his Signing bounus olus 1st 2 years salary
probably 60m in signing bounus and then salsries or 2/20.
Guessing 17 mill cap number this year that jumps to 35 next year.
Year 3 would probably contain some bounus that would trigger so that would be the time for Giants to cut or extend Jones as he would likely have cap numbers over 50
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
I asked a question. I don’t root against anyone on the Giants.
Glowinski is now the whipping boy at $8m who can’t block. Just cause he got paid I can’t see him having a better year without better OL and WR play. Remember we played last year with like $60m dead money.
a lot of money for just one year of production, but I agree we need to see how the contract is structured. And as others have said, this is the QB market in the NFL today, especially with the cap expected to increase substantially in the next few years.
I think we will see his numbers improve in year 2 of Daboll/Kafka with Neal maturing and some weapons. Lets add some WRs, another TE, I think Jones can throw for 18 TDs next year.
I keed, I keed. I see him taking a serious step forward with some talent there! And this deal will look like a steal in 2 years when others are getting $60+.
The issues are judging him with a decent O-line, with decent weapons. Let's see if they can get that now. This is no longer a Gettleman pick, it's decisively a Schoen-Dabol pick - and I trust them.
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
When Schoen drafts a WR in rd 1 or 2, are you going to say why? Are you seriously going to say that we don't need to upgrade our WRs? If so, you would be in a very small minority (of people who all have one thing in common).
If WR talent is so irrelevant why have multiple teams, including the Bills and eagles traded multiple picks including first rounders for #1 WRs?
If Josh Allen and Hurts could've done just as well without Diggs and AJ Brown, why would those well run orgs waste multiple picks for them?
But guaranteed money is really the heavyweight in these deals. Everything else you can play around with, and if they're paying out the bulk of the guarantees on the front end, this does give the giants more flexibility down the line. It's not an obvious 'out' like an option year, but it helps, doesn't hurt, IMO. Jones gets the security of guaranteed money now, the Giants have a QB under contract and they can re-evaluate the relationship in 2+ years.
but I'm glad DJ signed the deal and he's going to continue playing for our team. I'll let the money geeks chat about the amounts, but I suspect that JS is going to work around the money to try and get to the fun part of the FA season.
I'm also glad that Saquon Barkley was tagged, keeping Barkley is so important for the ground game of Big Blue.
Stand up for our QB!
GO BIG BLUE!
But some skeptical types I trust on Twitter are saying that the $82 million guaranteed is a good sign and allows the Giants an out after 2 years if it goes South...so I guess I'm ok. Interested to hear more.
Giants offensive weapons were near the bottom of the league. I'm not even a Daniel Jones apologist but to argue otherwise would be pretty ridiculous. I like Hodgins, Robinson missed nearly the entire season, Bellinger was pretty solid but even he was a 4th round TE who missed 5 games (and quite frankly, is he really a major "weapon" or a solid NFL TE?). Richie James and Darius Slayton led the team in receptions...
I've been on BBI long enough to know the debates over hog mollies and the trenches vs. the "shiny new toy" are an annual affair but the Giants receiving corps were remarkably "meh" in 2022. It would be hard for Shoen NOT to improve them this off-season.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
Outside of Barkley which of the other Giants WR's would be starting on another "good" team? How is it "tired"? Their top 2 WR combined for less than 1,300 yards, their #3 WR in yards played in 8/17 games...
Have to see the full structure to see if the Giants can really practically get out with $82m paid.
They wont get out for free but a 60 mill SB leaves 30 mil in dead money vs 100 mill in salary. not an easy out but can still swallow the dead money and see a cap savings
Or the disaster Twitter will make it out to be. It's pretty easy to get a handle on how this thing is structured based on the details. They're essentially paying 11-12M premium on top of the cost of a double tag for the ability to spread out that hit to give them some roster building flexibility now and a couple of option years later on if Jones blossoms.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
Well look at what the AJ Brown weapon did for Philly. Other teams have that number 1 difference-maker as well..I think our O improves exponentially in year two of Daboll, if we get that teue number 1 that opens EVERYTHING else
Would have preferred if they called the agents bluff
and tagged Jones. They were certainly able to leverage the Barkley situation a little to their advantage when looking at the Carr and Geno deals. I guess the Giants really wanted Saquan back though.
..but I am sure the Giants tried to be fair but also give themselves an out if DJ doesn't keep trending upwards.
To me, and I love DJ as a athlete/player/talent, he still needs to prove himself. I think that's obvious, you're always proving yourself but he's had one good year (not counting his rookie year).
Or the disaster Twitter will make it out to be. It's pretty easy to get a handle on how this thing is structured based on the details. They're essentially paying 11-12M premium on top of the cost of a double tag for the ability to spread out that hit to give them some roster building flexibility now and a couple of option years later on if Jones blossoms.
Yeah. They played it safe with the option year and he outperformed it.
If they trust his ability to get better, then this isn't a bad problem. Of course, they need to be correct.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
The weapons thing was brought up in response to the "excuses" thing.
Considering Hodgins, who was unemployed in early Nov., and then became our best WR, I don't think it's a stretch to think that a 1st or 2nd round pick could make us quite a lot better.
And who knows what else Schoen might do either with a mid tier FA or trade. It's clear he wanted to make a move for a WR before the trade deadline, but the value was bad.
We'll also hopefully get Wan dale back, so I expect our weapons to be quite a lot better in '23. And as a result, I expect Jones to take another leap.
Giants offensive weapons were near the bottom of the league. I'm not even a Daniel Jones apologist but to argue otherwise would be pretty ridiculous. I like Hodgins, Robinson missed nearly the entire season, Bellinger was pretty solid but even he was a 4th round TE who missed 5 games (and quite frankly, is he really a major "weapon" or a solid NFL TE?). Richie James and Darius Slayton led the team in receptions...
I've been on BBI long enough to know the debates over hog mollies and the trenches vs. the "shiny new toy" are an annual affair but the Giants receiving corps were remarkably "meh" in 2022. It would be hard for Shoen NOT to improve them this off-season.
There really aren't improvements out there in FA for WR. Trade candidates have steep costs associated possibly in draft capital and precious cap space.
cathartic it was and now this 'offseason' I'm more at peace with whatever happens. I've been a Jones supporter. I love the person Barkley is. Both have flaws. If they hadn't signed I would have been slightly perturbed, but I guess I'm more happy with what we have in Daboll and Schoen, who, if they are as good as last years promise, will be around longer than both Jones and Barkley. $40 per looks like a lot right now. If Jones improves the way he did this season, it will seem like a bargain. If he sucks or gets injured(which I think is likely in the next 2 years) we only have 4 years or less of him to deal with. You could make a case that Barkley carried the team up to the bye, then physically broke down. I think he's an awesome talent and a great locker room guy/leader. Its a business. He has at most 3 good years left depending on how much a team uses him. They need more talent at WR, OL as well as DL, LB and CB. THATS what'll get us to the super bowl. Thats what will tell me if Schoen and Daboll are here long term....Today doesn't justify Gettlemans drafting of DJ, it tells me Daboll(and Schoen) like DJ enough to think they can succeed with him.
I think this is a good deal for the Giants because
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
Another stupid post. Really. None of us have an idea yet of the details and the structure, but you come on here and spout “shitty contract?”
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
Says the 16 year old that hasn’t even seen the contract details just goes by AAV 🤡
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
That argument will pivot to the meddlesome Mara. I predicted this weeks ago. No where in ANY of this will be that Schoen and Daboll felt that Jones was a large part of the success for 2022 and they wanted him to the the tune of 40m AAV because Jones is worth it.
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
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106.7K
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There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Jones had more leverage than the Giants and used it to get a very good deal for himself
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Do you actually have an opinion to contribute?
Huh? The opinion is that Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Stop bulding clocks and start comprehending what you read.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
i dont know how your scale is grading but i think a statistical way to look at it would be to say their weapons were somewhere in the 50 percentile range as they scored very close to the 50th percentile in PPG.
as a passer jones was also probably 50th percentile, so id say he was close to neutral with his receivers, but with his overall value as a qb bumped up by what he contributed as a runner.
i dont think slayton is a loss. a full year of hodgins is an upgrade on slayton. i think he could put up a 1k/8td year which is better than anything slayton has ever done.
it's easier said then done but if they get 1 additional true impact WR that's a force multiplier. i dont know if they can find one but i expect it's high on their to do list (and our most accurate asshat said they were all in on moore at the trade deadline). id personally be open to all options from hopkins, to aiyuk, to dj moore, to moving up in the draft if they love jsn/addison/hyatt. i dont know where the best value deal will be so id be engaged across all the above. i think the only thing id be out on is obj because that plane video of him was pretty bad.
then it's probably time to get off Gettlemans back.
Why?
Gettleman still sucked... Horribly!
Jones doesn't get him off the hook for his piss poor management and FA debacles, and clueless approach to team building.
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
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1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
This was another piece of leverage for Jones. He knew they needed cap relief in 2023. Easy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Giants are now in a Super Bowl window
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Do you actually have an opinion to contribute?
Huh? The opinion is that Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Stop bulding clocks and start comprehending what you read.
I completely agree Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Why wouldn't they? He did everything they asked of him last year: league leader in a bunch of passing efficiency measures, great ground production, protected himself better in the run game, won a playoff game. He had a resounding successful season.
The Giants were 15th in scoring. Very good run game, efficient pass game.
My view is simply it won't be turn key easy to upgrade the passing targets, who played well down the stretch.
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
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106.7K
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1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
This was another piece of leverage for Jones. He knew they needed cap relief in 2023. Easy.
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Jones had more leverage than the Giants and used it to get a very good deal for himself
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
This was EASY to see coming.
Just to be clear, I have no opinion on this yet, I have to see all the numbers...
now its time to get on to more pressing matters; fix the front 7.
prdave the Oline and particularly Neal advancing will do wonders for the offense.
Anyone not recognizing that they need a top WR is a moron but consider the posters suggesting this.
BPA in the draft but this deal allows them to maybe add a impact guy on defense as well.
OL for sure. We just picked a bad year to need a WR in the free agency pool. Not a bumper crop at all. Lots of WRs and WR3s.
The best opportunity looks to be the draft. Maybe a trade or a quality gets unexpectedly cut to get under the cap. But those seems like longer shot solutions at this moment.
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
He's not going to be able show he is elite (which imo he isn't) until he gets better than lousy receivers and he could use a better IOL. I agree though he is not elite.
Oddly, another poster called the Giants now "Super Bowl Contenders" and that poster was never much of a DJ fan. Very odd. There is no way this team is a contender next year.
Great job by Schoen. That's all that matters. The AAV is important to Jones and his agents. As fans, we still have flexibility to improve the roster, sign our guys.
At least it seems like they're only tied to him for a couple of years, so they can cut bait if he continues to be mediocre.
Would you please stop? He was a good QB last year..Not great, not elite and certainly not mediocre..
He is making a complete ass of himself. Let him. This troll is saying the Giants feel he is mediocre after they just signed him to a 4 year deal for 40m AAV that can be worth almost 50m AAV if he hits incentives.
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
If he could handle the pressure of playing a year when 90% of the football world was certain his time as a Giant was done, he can probably handle playing under the scrutiny of critics like you as a multi millionaire.
the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
it's easier said then done but if they get 1 additional true impact WR that's a force multiplier. i dont know if they can find one but i expect it's high on their to do list (and our most accurate asshat said they were all in on moore at the trade deadline). id personally be open to all options from hopkins, to aiyuk, to dj moore, to moving up in the draft if they love jsn/addison/hyatt. i dont know where the best value deal will be so id be engaged across all the above. i think the only thing id be out on is obj because that plane video of him was pretty bad.
That's exactly my point. Among their clear needs is a WR. But I don't think it's a given they'll be able to far and away upgrade last year's skill players.
We're not talking about a bottom 3rd offense, were talking about a top half offense.
We've been over the metrics on James and Slayton enough, they are quality 3 and 4 WRs.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Jones had more leverage than the Giants and used it to get a very good deal for himself
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
This was EASY to see coming.
Just to be clear, I have no opinion on this yet, I have to see all the numbers...
I was going for a little levity.
McL, I know how intelligent you are. There will be nothing in these details that make this look bad for Daniel. I am CONFIDENT I know what happened.
Jones had all the leverage. The Giants moved up a long way from the beginning and blinked even more at the very end.
The tag 32.4m and Jones got 40m AAV.
Why?
RE: Now it's $94M virtually guaranteed per Rapoport
Had a feeling that $82M guaranteed wasn't going to stick.
Have to see how many years of Jones Giants get for $94M.
That's certainly an interesting number and could be a huge difference in this deal. Phrasing sounds like it came from an agent, so very curious to see how that plays out.
RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
JFC, Thank you, got some respect back from me, not that you care, but my god, at least one of you has some character.
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
Good points on the contract.
If there is no eject button, they are indeed seriously hitched to Jones to win big prizes. That's a big bet.
Idiots that think they needed this gigantic emergency cute were people who are stupid enough to not be sold on Jones. I think he has to up his game, no more bullshit, but I also believe he will. Without knowing details other then 18 million year 1, probably total contract worth up to 160 mil with incentives, and sounds like 92 million of thr contract is guaranteed. If this is the case, and it takes a lot to decider through all the bullshit, then the Giants did a great job. Giant fans will be happy.
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
Cap hits of 19M and 10.1M for Jones and Barkley, plus cutting Golladay with a post-June designation leaves the Giants with $32M in cap room. Plenty of room to do as they please.
RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
If this effectively a 3 year commitment, it's effectively 2-3 years less than the big dogs are getting locked into.
it's easier said then done but if they get 1 additional true impact WR that's a force multiplier. i dont know if they can find one but i expect it's high on their to do list (and our most accurate asshat said they were all in on moore at the trade deadline). id personally be open to all options from hopkins, to aiyuk, to dj moore, to moving up in the draft if they love jsn/addison/hyatt. i dont know where the best value deal will be so id be engaged across all the above. i think the only thing id be out on is obj because that plane video of him was pretty bad.
That's exactly my point. Among their clear needs is a WR. But I don't think it's a given they'll be able to far and away upgrade last year's skill players.
We're not talking about a bottom 3rd offense, were talking about a top half offense.
We've been over the metrics on James and Slayton enough, they are quality 3 and 4 WRs.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
JFC, Thank you, got some respect back from me, not that you care, but my god, at least one of you has some character.
My guess on the first year cap hit is they could have structured it like Carr's, but with a lot of cap room this year, adding $12 million this year frees that money up in future years. Having an extra $6 million in 2024 and 2025 can make a big difference in building long term quality. I bet Schoen got exactly what he wanted cap wise for this year.
RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
JFC, Thank you, got some respect back from me, not that you care, but my god, at least one of you has some character.
thanks for the respect back? not sure what i did to lose it but glad it's back in my digital piggyback.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Giants are now in a Super Bowl window
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
Thank you for the kind words.
We were a young team. I felt the product at the end of the year was much better than earlier. We grew as a team. Jones grew as a QB. We opened up the offense. Philly has a cap problem. 5 million over. We are in a much better cap spot in 2023 than we were in 2022.
I do believe we FINALLY made the right hires at GM and HC. The returns from 2022 force me to believe in them until they prove otherwise.
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Yes, again we are agreeing.
If the Giants acquire 5 WRs not on the roster today including a top line guy via a trade, and Robinson recovers well, they could be next year.
Now odds of all that falling into place next year and outperforming the group the Giants had in the homestretch?
If I were investing in the picks and cash, I'd be targeting and IOL.
got and his on field production. I said this two minutes prior to the deal and 8 minutes prior to the deadline. And the point isn't that it is some great prediction but that if it was that obvious we made the negotiation pretty easy for DJs side. And that was always the problem.
In comment 16055116 Sean said: I don’t think he wants to be here
Quote:
.
I think he does and he just knows the Mara's and their feelings about him will force a buckle. I'd say given the news and the way it has played out i'd be very surprised if he isn't signed to the long term deal at $40M+ AAV.
All of these "hey they are meeting again" situations show it is the Giants who are desperate to get something done. Otherwise they should just be like, hey, we are tagging you, you come back to us when you have a more reasonable number.
The Giants are the one with the trump card but it is playing out as Jones exerting the leverage here time and time again. Because he knows how ownership feels about him
I expect this deal doesn't age well. And this was always my problem with DJ, not anything about him just how fond certain people in charge of the team were of him and how harmful that could be to effective negotiations regardless of his production.
I don't really need to argue or care about how much pure agreement JS had on this because the fact is the CEO loves someone so profusely and it changes your perspective on them. And Mara loved this guy more than his output from day one. You build a team well getting value for production.
The proof is in the pudding, we will see how this contract ages. I don't suspect well but I'd love to be wrong. Then we can talk about if JS is just another bad hire or if perhaps there is a different problem. Thread from the quote - ( New Window )
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
Dude....The tag was 32.4 and they paid him 40m AAV. That is a huge endorsement. Holy cow. I mean, he only threw 15 TDs last year, Schoen must be fucking stupid right?
LOL...yeah right.
There will be a fresh batch of them if Jones fails to produce.
once again, how did signing him to a contract change his situation in the offense? Did I miss where we solidified the OL and got him some weapons to throw to? Seriously.. I was not here much for the past two days. Did I miss that?
The 40-50 yard throw jones had to the corner of the end zone that was dropped by Slayton against Minnesota? He’s going to be worth every penny of this contract under Dabs and co
who turned this team around in one off season. The best Giants team (winning a playoff game) since the last Superbowl. Yet, we still have people here who know more than our GM and coach... apparently.
got and his on field production. I said this two minutes prior to the deal and 8 minutes prior to the deadline. And the point isn't that it is some great prediction but that if it was that obvious we made the negotiation pretty easy for DJs side. And that was always the problem.
In comment 16055175 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 16055116 Sean said: I don’t think he wants to be here
Quote:
.
I think he does and he just knows the Mara's and their feelings about him will force a buckle. I'd say given the news and the way it has played out i'd be very surprised if he isn't signed to the long term deal at $40M+ AAV.
All of these "hey they are meeting again" situations show it is the Giants who are desperate to get something done. Otherwise they should just be like, hey, we are tagging you, you come back to us when you have a more reasonable number.
The Giants are the one with the trump card but it is playing out as Jones exerting the leverage here time and time again. Because he knows how ownership feels about him
I expect this deal doesn't age well. And this was always my problem with DJ, not anything about him just how fond certain people in charge of the team were of him and how harmful that could be to effective negotiations regardless of his production.
I don't really need to argue or care about how much pure agreement JS had on this because the fact is the CEO loves someone so profusely and it changes your perspective on them. And Mara loved this guy more than his output from day one. You build a team well getting value for production.
The proof is in the pudding, we will see how this contract ages. I don't suspect well but I'd love to be wrong. Then we can talk about if JS is just another bad hire or if perhaps there is a different problem. Thread from the quote - ( New Window )
More than a month predicted Jones would sign for more than any of you wanted and that you would blame Mara when it happens.
That was as easy to predict as the eventual AAV.
Jones had all the leverage because the tag was 32.4m and he was not easy to replace in the draft or free agency.
IE
You were wrong.
Say it Fonzie!
RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
if the year 1 hit is 19m then years 2-4 are going to average 47m. that's simple math.
the bigger the signing bonus, the more painful and harder it is to trade or cut a player even in year 3.
the bigger signing bonus is the only way to get the year 1 down to 19m while still paying out 82m in the first 2 years.
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
if the year 1 hit is 19m then years 2-4 are going to average 47m. that's simple math.
the bigger the signing bonus, the more painful and harder it is to trade or cut a player even in year 3.
the bigger signing bonus is the only way to get the year 1 down to 19m while still paying out 82m in the first 2 years.
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
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106.7K
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1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
This was another piece of leverage for Jones. He knew they needed cap relief in 2023. Easy.
Good job tagging Barkley. Tender/trade is probably best outcome for the team. Hopefully before this year's draft to maximize draft capital which will now be absolutely vital to ensure this team does not regress.
But allocating on average nearly twenty percent of the cap over the next four years to a middling quarterback is head scratching at best. At worst, it will be one of the worst contracts in NFL history. The dead cap hit in year three will be catastrophic if DJ fails to live up to the elite performance level that the contract demands. Congrats to DJ. This was a master class in how to fleece an NFL organization.
I had thought we had our fill of bad contracts when it was announced that Golladay was going to be cut. But that was a Gettleman disaster. While I do believe Mara again is the primary driver here, that cannot be an excuse. This is Schoen's responsibility now. As DJ goes, so too shall Schoen.
Here's hoping that Daboll is up to the challenge of working his magic again...
then it's probably time to get off Gettlemans back.
Why?
Gettleman still sucked... Horribly!
Jones doesn't get him off the hook for his piss poor management and FA debacles, and clueless approach to team building.
DG sucked. Nothing about a draft pick working out can change that. His legacy is his record. Abysmal.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group.
This is utter nonsense. You've lumped in the RB with the WR';s which is a complete joke.
You've completely dismissed positional value.
When the Giants beat the Bears and Jones threw for so few yards, you were not impressed, right? Because he didn't throw for enough yardage? You separated his running vs his throwing, didn't you? But now all of a sudden you want to lump in both the WR and RB?
C'mon - evaluate the WR's and stop with the other nonsense.
RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
The year two salary, which is surely guaranteed, will be converted into a signing bonus as part of a simple restructure or another extension. This of course depends on Jones performing as Schoen and Daboll expect.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Yes, again we are agreeing.
If the Giants acquire 5 WRs not on the roster today including a top line guy via a trade, and Robinson recovers well, they could be next year.
Now odds of all that falling into place next year and outperforming the group the Giants had in the homestretch?
If I were investing in the picks and cash, I'd be targeting and IOL.
there arent that many good IOL in FA. pocic is maybe the only guy that's an upgrade on what they had last year and that's debateable. bradberry too and he doesnt fit their scheme.
last year over the year they acquired 4 of their 5 leading receivers - james, hodgins, wandale, and bellinger. 2 minimum salaries, a 2nd round pick who got hurt multiple times and a 4th round pick who also missed some games and the 4 of them combined for like 150 receptions, 1500 yards, and 12 touchdowns.
last year they didnt invest more in the receiver position in part bc they had toney and golladay as projected starters under contract but their productivity ended up far below even the lowest predictions. between the 2 of them i think they caught like 4 passes from jones for less than 20 yards combined. toney literally had 0 receiving yards as a nyg last year.
id wager comfortably that they invest more in the WR position than they did last year and as such it's very possible that they upgrade significantly, just as they did last year.
I've been saying we will overpay Jones because of Mara for years.
I've also given him credit for his improvement and his good games.
The following made this a pretty unique situation, not the normal negotiation people suggest:
1) 7 QBs have had the franchise tag used on them in the last 30 years. If you want to get into quality other than Cassell Jones has easily the worst on field performance. It shouldn't have gotten this close, he should have been willing to move more but he knew he had us by the balls.
2) Owners rarely blame teammates for the poor performance of their QB
3) Owners rarely publicly commit to a player being their "QB of the future" right before a contract negotiation
4) EXTREMELY RARE for a player to fire his agent right as negotiations are starting
If you can't see a tie to that and the very real situation here where we overpaid a player relative to comps I don't know what to tell you. It is not some imagined thing, there was smoke and now fire.
Most want to pretend like this isn't the same guy that couldn't even handle giving away free soda because we've had one good year. Insufficient for me. I don't mind taking in current trends and the complete body of data to make my assessments.
I expect these comments to age similarly well to my issues with hiring DG, to my comments on their analytics department being behind and yes even my concern that we would overpay this guy regardless of his production.
I don't have any ax to grind here, but my faith is earned. Let's see how it goes, I win either way in my estimation. Unlike some here I'm happy to admit when I am wrong. And I have admitted and will admit that he did more than I thought this season. But I have very consistently been much more concerned about how much we would pay him for his output than the actual output.
RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
Clearly the GM and coach value DJ far more than the resident experts do.
RE: RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
The year two salary, which is surely guaranteed, will be converted into a signing bonus as part of a simple restructure or another extension. This of course depends on Jones performing as Schoen and Daboll expect.
kicking the can down the road in year 2 of a 4 year extension is the type of thing stupid teams in bad cap situations do. i do not think that's what will happen here btw, im just saying that's a stupid practice typically done by the teams that are perpetually over the cap and scrambling to get under by restructures year after year after year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Giants are now in a Super Bowl window
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
RE: RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
Clearly the GM and coach value DJ far more than the resident experts do.
i think that's going to be a takeaway of this deal, though we need to see the full details to confirm.
this is derek carr $ but not the derek carr structure at all.
RE: Honeymoon over. Welcome to New York Mr. Schoen...
Good job tagging Barkley. Tender/trade is probably best outcome for the team. Hopefully before this year's draft to maximize draft capital which will now be absolutely vital to ensure this team does not regress.
But allocating on average nearly twenty percent of the cap over the next four years to a middling quarterback is head scratching at best. At worst, it will be one of the worst contracts in NFL history. The dead cap hit in year three will be catastrophic if DJ fails to live up to the elite performance level that the contract demands. Congrats to DJ. This was a master class in how to fleece an NFL organization.
I had thought we had our fill of bad contracts when it was announced that Golladay was going to be cut. But that was a Gettleman disaster. While I do believe Mara again is the primary driver here, that cannot be an excuse. This is Schoen's responsibility now. As DJ goes, so too shall Schoen.
Here's hoping that Daboll is up to the challenge of working his magic again...
I'm shocked that more aren't here. Amazing what one good season will do. Agree BD is our shot at making this work and I don't think the task is impossible because of that.
The other thing here is injury. There is some risk of him not taking a step forward, some risk of him taking a step back because the talent around him actually decreases as we have to pay elite money to Dex and AT and also the fact that he has had some injury issues that didn't hold him back in his pay day year but did in the others.
Ultimately this was a risky situation either way for JS IMO. The media circus if Jones was tagged would have been insane, especially if Barkley was lost. Those acting like the only way JS would have agreed to this is because he was 100% down for DJ at these prices are really over-simplifying the situation.
I've been saying we will overpay Jones because of Mara for years.
I've also given him credit for his improvement and his good games.
The following made this a pretty unique situation, not the normal negotiation people suggest:
1) 7 QBs have had the franchise tag used on them in the last 30 years. If you want to get into quality other than Cassell Jones has easily the worst on field performance. It shouldn't have gotten this close, he should have been willing to move more but he knew he had us by the balls.
2) Owners rarely blame teammates for the poor performance of their QB
3) Owners rarely publicly commit to a player being their "QB of the future" right before a contract negotiation
4) EXTREMELY RARE for a player to fire his agent right as negotiations are starting
If you can't see a tie to that and the very real situation here where we overpaid a player relative to comps I don't know what to tell you. It is not some imagined thing, there was smoke and now fire.
Most want to pretend like this isn't the same guy that couldn't even handle giving away free soda because we've had one good year. Insufficient for me. I don't mind taking in current trends and the complete body of data to make my assessments.
I expect these comments to age similarly well to my issues with hiring DG, to my comments on their analytics department being behind and yes even my concern that we would overpay this guy regardless of his production.
I don't have any ax to grind here, but my faith is earned. Let's see how it goes, I win either way in my estimation. Unlike some here I'm happy to admit when I am wrong. And I have admitted and will admit that he did more than I thought this season. But I have very consistently been much more concerned about how much we would pay him for his output than the actual output.
Actually, you have big ax to grind here. You are extremely protective of your opinion.
You win?
Just listen to you.
ZERO self awareness.
Can you find room in that narrow but large mind of yours that Schoen and Daboll might have been the ones pounding the table for more cash to sign Jones?
They exceeded expectations in year 1 and have Jones to blame for it.
id wager comfortably that they invest more in the WR position than they did last year and as such it's very possible that they upgrade significantly, just as they did last year.
Of course they will invest. YoY they'll have lost Golladay, Toney, Slayton, James, and Shepard. That's not debatable, they literally have one healthy WR worth anything.
Odds of them significantly upgrading the output the starters had down the stretch? Very possible? Eh, I'd say possible.
And if they're willing to trade assets and invest money for a Hopkins WR, I'd rather they seek out a trade for an IOL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
Thank you for the kind words.
We were a young team. I felt the product at the end of the year was much better than earlier. We grew as a team. Jones grew as a QB. We opened up the offense. Philly has a cap problem. 5 million over. We are in a much better cap spot in 2023 than we were in 2022.
I do believe we FINALLY made the right hires at GM and HC. The returns from 2022 force me to believe in them until they prove otherwise.
Younger means "better," in all cases? WH can't "better" players trump "younger" players?
You really think the way Philly manages things and their draft pick availability this year the the cap will adversely impact them?
The Giants have no shot to match Philly this year unless injuries destroy them. I might seem negative btu actually this year I expect a downturn so I will not be complaining about w/l record. I expect a good jump in 2024 if they do things right.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: the 19m year 1 cap # is surprising to me and i dont love it
kicking the can down the road in year 2 of a 4 year extension is the type of thing stupid teams in bad cap situations do.
Kicking the can down the road is what every team does every fucking year, so I guess there are 32 teams in the NFL who wish they had your smarts.
and to quote joe schoen he views it as a "last resort". you don't need any kind of special smarts to assume that means it's not something he's doing in year 2 of an extension he just signed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Giants are now in a Super Bowl window
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
Dude wake up yourself you are making it something it isn't
this isn't about JS and BD. Unlike you I actually refuse to speculate on them.
What I do know with a high level of certainty is that when the head of an organization does extremely unorthodox things like publicly blame someone's teammates for their problems and gives them a pass, agents are going to use that as leverage in negotiations.
We clearly overpaid here. It isn't a leap to see the above and other things like saying he's the QB of the future prior to this negotiation hurting your negotiating position.
I don't have random confidence in things. I gain conviction when I see strong logical ties between pieces of information.
I'm not saying JS and DB hate Jones and Mara is forcing their hand. I'm saying that their owner who can't even game theory giving away soda properly often doesn't think through the things he says and that has very real costs for the team. Like overpaying on this contract. He kicks garbage cans like a little kid for gods sake.
There have been and will continue to be real costs for his refusal to properly think through the consequences of his actions. Again I would prefer to be wrong here. I don't know what you are so pissed off about, these are very reasonable perspectives given what has played out in the last 10+ years.
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
I 100% agree with everything you are saying here. I hope Sean feels the same way.
I have to see about the current contract for Jones. I was against signing him for near $40m. IF this contract is like that, - and they don't win enough in 2024, I'm gonna turn big time on these threads like I did with DG. - Though DG I thought he was a moron from the start.
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
I 100% agree with everything you are saying here. I hope Sean feels the same way.
I have to see about the current contract for Jones. I was against signing him for near $40m. IF this contract is like that, - and they don't win enough in 2024, I'm gonna turn big time on these threads like I did with DG. - Though DG I thought he was a moron from the start.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
As I said weeks ago it was always a matter of closing the gap with the guarantees.. They had to get creative but be happy with Schoen and Abrams. They did a good job.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
I think because the expected outcome is to be able to consistently compete to be in the Super Bowl. While I can hope to get into a Super Bowl, the realistic expectation is to get far into the playoffs. Once you get to the playoffs anything can happen.
But for shits and giggles, what do you think the fans of the Browns are thinking with a QB that is getting triple the guaranteed money Jones is getting?
RE: RE: The Giants defense was slow and exposed by Dallas & Philly
OL for sure. We just picked a bad year to need a WR in the free agency pool. Not a bumper crop at all. Lots of WRs and WR3s.
The best opportunity looks to be the draft. Maybe a trade or a quality gets unexpectedly cut to get under the cap. But those seems like longer shot solutions at this moment.
I think the thin FA pool for WRs may work in our favor. 1st, I don't like the mega $$ they will command, at the cost of other, urgently needed upgrades, 2nd, Schoen has proven creative in who he can find among the lost and forgotten, and 3rd, absolutely the draft: now that DJ and SB are, for the moment, set in stone, that unlocks potential maneuvers on draft day, up or down, depending on who they like.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
It's BBI. You have to be happy with everything that happens. No exceptions!
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
this has to go down as one of the funniest posts in years!!
Quote:
I don't have random confidence in things. I gain conviction when I see strong logical ties between pieces of information.
No "random confidence"?? You are the blithering fool who said Jones lacked the personality to succeed based on finding a chair at a press conference. And have stood by that craptastic take.
You are the guy who said that Jones doesn't have swagger and will never have swagger because of the way his body language is.
That's the definition of random confidence, and no amount of posting resumes and credentials is going to change those bomabstic "convictions".
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
How on earth was it fiscally challenging? They didn't have to get creative to fit both under the salary cap. What a weird take from Tom Rock. There was nothing hard or challenging about finding a way to bring both back. The only question was where the Giants would draw the line on what they were willing to pay.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
that's an interesting point.
first obvious thing is they wouldn't have needed to extend him now.
but that aside, the tag is going up next year over 40m, so the next 3 years would actually probably play out pretty similarly in terms of cap #'s.
if jones has a big year that improves his value the nyg will be lucky to have extended him early and if things go the opposite way maybe the opposite will be true. but daboll has coached him for a year now so if he likes jones now i think back to your original question, the only thing that's different is they are in a slightly better negotiating position to get a slightly better deal than they got today but they probably still try to extend him at a similar year 1 #.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
thanks for clearing that up.
question for the "they wont trade for an expensive veteran WR" group
rico said they were all in on dj moore at the deadline. he has a 20m guaranteed salary this year. do you think schoen didnt realize that at the time?
there are a lot of levers they can pull to have room this offseason, and they just pulled a big one by artificially reducing jones salary by 21m less than his AAV and 13m less than the tag amount would have been.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
Trading for someone younger with less tread on the tires than Hopkins.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
it's possible but FA is so thin at WR this year and Robinson's injury status is a big unknown so it's hard to see them chancing it to the draft if they let james/slayton go elsewhere. id rather spend 20m on an impact player like hopkins than giving either of the other 2 a multi-year deal that will probably get inflated beyond where either of them should be paid because of this year's WR crop.
would i prefer someone younger than hopkins? of course but aiyuk is costing a 1st+. i dont think higgins is getting traded. maybe you can get someone like tyler boyd or tim patrick for a day 3. at the moment hopkins is the only guy we know is actually on the trade market.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
but it got done. As we learn more, it’s likely both sides got something they wanted.
The people here that are distinctly unhappy, are part of the “dump Jones for a bag of donuts” crowd. Impossible to make them happy.
For a 30 year old WR who might be on the downturn just seems like a reactionary move.
Just stay patient and keep building.
Much like the 2021 Knicks who had a surprise playoff birth, they shouldn’t give away premium assets just to make a move. If Jones and Daboll are worth their salaries they should be able to get 70% of Hopkins production from another guy on the trade market who is cheaper or younger.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
For a 30 year old WR who might be on the downturn just seems like a reactionary move.
semantics but id do the toney pick which is late day 2 or day 3 pick like cooper last year. either of those picks could be daniel bellinger that contributes a lot or like ezeudu/belton/flott is a typical rookie struggles to get off the bench. you are very unlikely to get a deandre hopkins though. in 9 games last year he averaged 80 ypg and put up 10 more receptions than any giant in the full year.
i wouldnt do the 1st or 2nd because those are basically day 1 starters at this point.
getting an impact player on a 2 year deal at a reasonable aav and with 0 guaranteed money is worth something as long as he has the right attitude.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
RE: Hopkins isn’t coming for a third rounder though
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
RE: The Giants defense was slow and exposed by Dallas & Philly
The Giants are always investing in WR it feels like. Get faster on defense.
Have the Giants invested wisely in WR? The past BAD investments in Golladay and Toney are meaningless; sunk costs. Schoen can't say - oh well, we tried. They weren't even his mistakes to begin with.
I agree we need more talent on defense, but there's no way Schoen doesn't draft a WR in rd 1 or 2 and probably add a mid tier FA too.
I would have franchised jones and let Barkley walk. To me it was an easy decision. The cap hit this year would have been the same as this outcome and they’d have no dead money moving forward if Jones doesn’t improve.
It’s a good RB draft and there are competent RBs in free agency would would have been fine. And running the ball is more about the line and scheme than the RB.
That being said let’s hope Jones improves. Im certainly rooting for him and the team. He definitely improved this year and that was with a bad OL and poor WRs. Im just risk averse w huge contracts and I’m not sure Jones is worth it. The Giants have been burned too many times recently signing guys to big deals who weren’t worth it because “what was the other option?”.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
What about the rest of the team? Why are we expending cap space and premium draft assets for declining players? Schoen needs to use his assets wisely and capture premium value across the roster. Trading high picks and devoting massive cap space only works if there’s a home run hitter at WR.
Hopkins isn’t it. Higgins isn’t it. DJ Moore isnt available. There’s no AJ Brown or Davante Adams available this off-season and probably not next year either.
Glad Barkley is coming back though who ... dare I say, should get more or the credit for the success the Giants had in 2022 than Jones. Boy am I living dangerously? But seriously glad he is playing along side Jones. Jones needs him.
RE: RE: Hopkins isn’t coming for a third rounder though
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
anything is possible, falcons could be a good fit for hopkins but not sure how enthused he'd be if ridder is the qb. bears not as much since they already gave up the 32nd pick for claypool. im just saying id make the call.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
Better option? - simple - anyone but a guy that will cost $34 mill next two years and is over 30. And, I do like him as a player a lot. FWIW, had anyone here ever heard of Hodgins before Schoen brought him in? There are other WRs out there better than Hodgins that we have never heard of but Schoen, Daboll and Kafka know about. IIRC, You brought up DJ Moore as an example of Schoen looking into players with big $$s. Moore is 26? Almost the same $$ as Hopkins with an extra year at $14 mill. 5 years younger. This may be doable.
I think Schoen is looking to re-sign his own guys 1st. He said that. He said no splashes in FA - I think this applies to trades with large contracts attached.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
He most certainly does, big steps.
And the Giants do have to become Super Bowl contenders
He was no mystery. A lot of us were surprised the Giants didn’t claim him in August, or pursue him while he was on Buffalo’s practice squad. Fortunately, they got another chance.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
Just because you re getting push back doesn’t mean you aren’t correct
If Jones and Barkley are going to win a Super Bowl of course this is their window.
RE: Section125: Minor correction on Isaiah Hodgins.
He was no mystery. A lot of us were surprised the Giants didn’t claim him in August, or pursue him while he was on Buffalo’s practice squad. Fortunately, they got another chance.
Fair enough, some knew of him, but hardly well known. Yet, still nobody else in the NFL picked him up either time. But then again, you do make my point. There are good WRs out there that can be had for little to nothing.
and he's probably going to get paid more than 10m per year like mvs did. spotrac projects a slightly higher 3 years 37m with presumably a chunk of that guaranteed (mvs got 15m gtd). that's a hard pass from me.
im taking hopkins remaining 33m all day over spending anything similar on lazard regardless of age. hopkins 9 game numbers last year are basically lazards career year.
On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
LOL, what? Earlier you were bitching about fans making excuses for jones - specifically calling out the season long complaints about the lack of talent at WR - and now you’re admitting they need a “massive influx of talent”??
On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
"75% of Hopkins from two players" is a lower-tier #2 or upper-tier #3 receiver in Lazard and a #3 receiver in Peoples-Jones
Also, saying that you can only get 75% of a #1 WR's production
I hope Jones takes a big step forward and makes the contract look like a great deal.
I also don't mind debating the merits of decisions or the thinking behind them. It doesn't cause me any grief or misery or whatever. Anything I say people can mock on TV all they want. Not going to change what I think.
And I unfortunately I think we will regret this contract and that was a risk before we planted Jones firmly in the drivers seat on these negotiations. But I most definitely will be happily wrong about that. The playoff wins must continue though, nothing short of that will be a success. No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
Getting 75% of that from two guys is a big improvement. More so if Neal takes a step forward and Saqoun remains healthy.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
Oh and psssst: 75% of Hopkins from TWO players is not the massive influx of talent you think it is.
Now 75% from one player? Given the state of the WR roster last year, definitely. But from two players, that’s basically what they had in slayton and James.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Getting 75% of that from two guys is a big improvement. More so if Neal takes a step forward and Saqoun remains healthy.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
Lazard is at most a bottom tier #2, probably a #3 receiver
And his QBs have been Baker, Brissett and 6 games of Watson. He’s improved every year and was better last year than anyone on the Giants roster. It’s too early in his career to peg him as just a #3.
He’s not as good as Diggs, but their first 3 years have a very similar arc. Diggs career didn’t hit its stride until Minnesota got him better QB play. The Giants can improve the weapons by throwing a bunch of darts at a above average younger wide receivers and hoping one or two break out, instead of putting all their eggs in the Hopkins basket and hoping his not on the downside of his career. It’s more cost effective, while also improving the depth in a position room that hasn’t been able to stay healthy over the years.
and he only makes a couple million this year. what's he costing in trade? he's a better player than claypool and we saw what he cost.
the guys on the chopping block are older or higher paid players like hopkins and sutton. just like cooper last year who ended up being probably one of the best bargains of last offseason. tyler boyd is someone id be interested in since it seems like cincy is going to extend higgins. aiyuk is going to be expensive but id make that call. not sure id give up the first for him but maybe. id check back in on dj moore.
bottom line is UFA sucks but they still need to find better players to replace james/slayton. isaiah mckenzie is another guy id try to grab from buffalo since it seemed like shakur kind of took his spot by the end of the year. schoen mentioned upgrading the return game and hed do that too.
The resources I’d rather take my shot on someone younger. I don’t know if it would take a second to get him, and if it did I don’t know if I would part with it but he also is only 23
McKenzie is another guy I would go after, and I’m sure he’s on Schoen’s radar.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Very disappointed with the Giants if these numbers are accurate. .
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Schoen and Daboll: You habe a QB, you have your RB back and you have cap space and draft capital to go out and fill out this roster. No more excuses about the cap constraints, are you going to hit on every player? absolutely not but you gotta hit on 75%. Roster has some pieces but now is the time to identify the keepers and to add to those..
Jones: You are a 40 million dollar QB, the excuses are done, whether you like Jones or not its put up or shut up time. This isnt a knock on Jones this is how it works, you get paid, the expdctations get elevated. You had a good year this year..guess what? next yesr has to be better, i dont cae who the Giants add, next year has to be better
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
RE: RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
Depends on when the additional $12M in "virtual guarantees" is triggered, but if it is not fully guaranteed before start of the 3rd season then the dead cap hit would be $36M if they let him go after 2024 season.
But based on what we know so far, this feels more like a 'win because of' kind of contract, not a 'win with' contract. Let's hope DJ proves to be that sort of player once we get a few weapons around him.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Thank you kdog. That’s a $48mm cap hit if Jones disappoints and the Giants part ways with him after 2024. Jeez. I sure hope Jones keeps making progress.
(48 = 36 (unamortized signing bonus) + 12 in guarantees in 2024/5)
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
We don't know yet. Maybe they are very unlikely like SB MVP or very likely. If the latter, then this contract is really insane paying him nearly 49M AAV. 4M more than Mahomes.
Yeah, Jones is our QB for the next 3 seasons. Period.
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
kdog on another thread someone said year 2 cap # is 38m
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
I did the same exercise here for a 40M signing bonus
[url]https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&
thread=632835&show_all=1#16056360[/url]
I wanted to retain him but boy does that make me nervous.
This year he was going to be the QB on the tag anyway. If he bombs this year or gets hurt, it’s a bad deal.
But then in 2024 he’s got the big cap hit, so if 2023 is a disaster and the Giants are in position to draft someone they still probably will. That’s 2 years.
It’s not like 3 years is that long. They could have had a stop gap for that entire time. Look at Washington.
I swear sometimes I'm certain people here think it's 1973
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
first off those numbers are pretty similar to what i posted but in 2024 the roster bonus making up the difference would be 100% guaranteed and counted the same as salary so it's irrelevant. remember the number that's been reported is 82m guaranteed and paid in the first 2 years. that's what we need to add up to.
a 48m signing bonus gets acocunted for on the cap as 12m hits each year. so your 2023 would be right (12 +7 = 19).
your year 2 wouldn't get jones to 82m guaranteed though. 20 + 7 + 12 + 12 = 51 (plus the remaining 24m SB to be accounted for in years 3+4 = 75m). so there's still 7m guaranteed$ missing that would have to be paid through your roster bonus which would hit the cap exactly the same as salary making his year 2 cap hit 27m + 12m = 39m.
your last 2 years are also light because that adds up to 70m in salary when there's 78m left on the deal. i think there's a 12m roster bonus in 2025 that likely triggers in 2024 and is maybe currently on guaranteed for injury but we will probably get those details today.
what this exercise shows though (your numbers included) is how even with a substantial signing bonus the cap hits are going to accelerate quickly.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
I did a quick example, I didn't figure out the exact numbers. In my scenario, the Giants will have an escape hatch after year 2 where there would be some cap savings and an escape after year 3 with significant cap savings. It also gives them the ability to extend after year 3 by converting his salary to a SB.
Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
I did a quick example, I didn't figure out the exact numbers. In my scenario, the Giants will have an escape hatch after year 2 where there would be some cap savings and an escape after year 3 with significant cap savings. It also gives them the ability to extend after year 3 by converting his salary to a SB.
i dont think there's going to be an escape hatch until year 3 and i dont think it's going to be all that appealing.
in year 2 if they have only accounted for 19m of 82m guaranteed, then the dead money risk is at least 63m. his base that year is likely to be in the 20's or 30's, so to move on from jones next year will probably cost the NYG an extra 30-40m (which is that 75% remainder of the signing bonus not yet accounted for).
RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I was really concerned about whether there would be a favorable out after year 2, but after reflection, things would have to go really bad to get to that scenario so it's almost irrelevant. If Jones plays poor the next two years and the team doesn't make the playoffs, the entire Daboll/Schoen regime would be in serious trouble.
RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
This was a large part of the reason I was soooo confident this deal would get done at the deadline and that the Giants would blink. They wanted room in 2023.
Their words and actions CLEARY show the team BELIEVES they can win hardware with Jones.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
oh please. Can we all play? The pro DJ group conflates team results with Jones' "improvement" and refuses to recognize that DJ wasn't very good the last two years and last season statistically wasn't all that much different than his year 2. They also fail to see one huge advantage DJ was given- he had a 4 year scholarship, now running another 3 anyway, without any challenge to his position as starter despite the last two years.
But no matter, he's here and Daboll and Schoen have hitched their jobs to the DJ-Barkley combo wagon. Let's hope it all works out.
RE: RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
JFC, if they haven't figured that out yet, they are not long for their jobs.
Gene, I think that they do have questions as to how good he can be
That's why they didn't want to go longer than 4 years, and seemed to have structured the deal such that they can replace him fairly easily in a few years. I think they like him, believe he's their best option right now, but aren't necessarily sold on him for the long haul.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
RE: Gene, I think that they do have questions as to how good he can be
That's why they didn't want to go longer than 4 years, and seemed to have structured the deal such that they can replace him fairly easily in a few years. I think they like him, believe he's their best option right now, but aren't necessarily sold on him for the long haul.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
RE: RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
that or there's a veteran on a big 1 year deal they like as low risk short term bandaid (like hopkins) as they get robinson healthy and look to draft more skill talent.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
just commented on the other thread but this is really interesting
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
i think the strategy here is to restructure year to year as they need to as opposed to carrying the dead money risk if traded/cut ahead of time.
very interesting and i dont think ive seen a deal structured this way before where there's such a rapid acceleration above the AAV in year 2.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Here's the thing, IMO - the WR excuse cuts both ways.
You don't know, for example, if KC's WRs are independently better than NYG's because you don't know how much better Mahomes makes them compared to DJ with his own receivers.
I know that when Eli was here, not a single one of his WRs throughout his entire career ever had a better run with any other QB than they had with Eli. So that tells me that Eli elevated their level of play. With DJ, we can't even necessarily say for sure whether any of the WRs he's played with would even make some other teams' rosters, so it's fair to note that as a limitation that DJ has faced, but you also can't say with any certainty exactly how good his WRs would need to be in order for him to flourish.
Does he need two bona fide stud WRs like Hill and Waddle, the way Tua did? Or like Metcalf and Lockett who were a huge part of Geno's late-blossoming career year? Or could he get by with one elite receiving weapon and a bunch of other pretty good receivers (slightly above JAG but not drastically) the way that Mahomes did this past year with Kelce and a handful of interchangeable journeymen at WR, or the way that Josh Allen has with Diggs as his alpha WR1 and then Gabe Davis and others cleaning up in favorable situations due to the attention Diggs commands?
If it's the former (surrounded by excellent receivers), it's going to be challenging and expensive to acquire those receivers, which could in turn mean that DJ's contract may not end up as a great value, if we end up having to spend as much in picks and dollars as an elite QB would cost while also having to pay DJ his money on top of that. If it's the latter (one elite stud, several complementary pieces), not only is the path to improvement significantly easier to navigate, but it also leaves open a much stronger possibility of DJ's new contract representing a potential bargain.
Personally, I don't love this contract, and it has nothing to do with being stubbornly attached to years of criticizing DJ's play. What I don't like about the contract is specifically that it feels half-pregnant to me, and that's a concern I've voiced for months. And as a NY sports fan in general, it's crazy to me to think about DJ making more money per season during this contract than Aaron Judge will make. Different sports, different ages, different levels of guarantee, I get it. But only one of those guys is a legit superstar, and it ain't the one making $40M a year.
I would have be thrilled with a cheaper AAV, obviously. And I would have been very happy to give DJ an even higher AAV and more guarantees a year from now with another good season on the books after making him play 2023 on the tag. What I don't love is being in the middle of those two scenarios. We aren't saving THAT much compared to the next tier of QB salaries above DJ that it gives us any sort of favorable cap advantage for this year (unless the contract is structured in such a way that the implied AAV in cap numbers really jumps for 2024-26), and I'd have rather seen DJ force his way into that next group up and then pay the piper for what would then be, IMO, a proven elite QB.
Obviously that wasn't the way Schoen and Daboll viewed it, and I'm satisfied to continue rooting for DJ and the Giants knowing that the front office braintrust knows more than I do. As it is, I'm excited that DJ already proved enough to earn this contract in the first place, even if I would have tagged him instead - no one but the biggest pollyannas on here would have predicted a nine-figure contract for DJ a year ago. Now let's see what the Giants do next. If they can't get him the receiving help he needs, this contract is going to be a very expensive way to finish in the middle of the league on offense and pray for 9-10 wins per season for the next few years. But if they do get DJ the tools he needs and he takes off, we're in great shape. Nothing to do now but root and wait.
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
That seems better than early reports. If he shits the bed, he can be unloaded for an $18 million cap hit plus whatever portion of 2025 was guaranteed a the end of year 2 and a $9 million dead cap hit for year 4.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
I think you're missing the point. I can only speak for myself here, but I'll go ahead and concede every one of those excuses for you. And I don't even disagree about the general ranking of top 10-15 in the league. Maybe I'd put DJ closer to 15 and you'd put him closer to 10, whatever.
The point, though, is that I generally think it's foolish to get attached (and financially committed) to any player at any position who is just basically around the middle third of the league's starters at that position. I have said it all along (and allude to it in my longer post above): I'd rather pay through the nose for the absolute elite, or go cheap (or at least painless to separate very quickly) for anything below that. There's only three tiers of players in the NFL, IMO: 1) elite, 2) interchangeable, 3) wasting a roster spot. I wouldn't feel great about spending truly big bucks on any player who doesn't fall into the first group, regardless of their position on the field.
That's not the way JS/BD viewed it. Such is life. It's their jobs on the line, not mine. I can trust them to make the right decision and simultaneously acknowledge that it's not the decision I'd have made with the limited information I have available to me.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
I think so, yes. My hunch is that this signing was equal parts them liking Jones and not seeing a preferable alternative. I don't think the playoffs swung their thinking terribly much, although seeing him play well on the road in the playoffs almost certainly didn't hurt either.
details out from PFT - year 2 cap # looks like 44.5m
but i think they expect to convert that to bonus via restructure as necessary (so it's almost like a 2 tier signing bonus). Inside the Daniel Jones deal - ( New Window )
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
I mean it is really simple... if this was a 3 year/127 million dollar contract that would mean his 4th year salary would only be 33million base salary... No way that is the case. No need to freak out.
Agent puts out 82 million over the first two years because he is including the signing bonuses in there which is paid up front.
Most like it is a 50ish million signing bonus which spread over the contract for salary cap purposes. So call it 12.5 million a year spread out over the cost of the contract for signing bonus.
Year one 7Million base + 12.5 Million 19.5 Million cap hit Fully Guaranteed.
Year two 30 million base + 12.5 Million 42.5 Million cap hit fully Guaranteed
Year three 30 million base + 12.5 million 42.5 cap hit
Year four 43 million base + 12.5 Million 55.5 million cap hit
This is just another example of how you can have 82 million over the first two years guaranteed (because the agent is including the signing bonus as part of that) and this would be 3/117... you can work the numbers even more to get it lower. My point being no way his is base salary going to be 33 million in year 4 which is what you have. So yes your math is probably wrong. Let's just wait until we see the numbers and not go by what an agent wants people to think he got his client.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Emphasis mine, inaccuracy yours.
These numbers aren’t “they wanted him badly” numbers. They’re “we think he’s a little better than Geno Smith” numbers.
they’d still try to pay him like Geno due to his 2019-2021 seasons. The Giants really wanted him (otherwise he would have been transition tagged), and also didn’t want to or feel he deserved get top QB pay.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I don't take issue with that statement at all. He was pretty determined to win the Indy and Minny playoff game. He had some 4th quarter comebacks, and it wasn't like he had a great surrounding cast minus AT and Saquon for most of the year. That's a whole lot different than "he's elite" or some of the other things you have there. I am probably as big a Jones supporter as there is on BBI, and I don't think he's elite or near Mahomes level, and I haven't seen it written. Although I do disappear from those thousand page DJ debate threads with a migraine after 4 or 5 pages... lol
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Ok Mr. Detractor and ridiculous OP. Simple question.
Why does Jones deserve more money than Geno Smith? Geno went to the pro bowl this year. They are both had only one season anything even remotely of note. Why does Jones deserve a fair amount more?
Age isn't really relevant because Geno is on a shorter deal that is easy to get out of faster and he really isn't that old.
He had a nice year, after being a journeyman for 7+ years. And good for him, he deserves the $105M dollar deal he was able to garner.
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.
He had a nice year, after being a journeyman for 7+ years. And good for him, he deserves the $105M dollar deal he was able to garner.
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.
You do realize what a bad point this is right? Jones can't get paid what the market dictates if he never hit the market. That is literally inaccurate. And besides we heard from our own beat writer that the Giants were willing to pay more than other teams.
My exact point that you mocked is the whole "situation" thing. I mean I know you don't really understand what a market dictated price is but is it possible for you to understand that when an owner blames the teammates of a player in public for their poor play. When they say he's our QB of the future before a negotiation begins that it might hurt the ability to get the best deal in that negotiation?
And you totally got me man. I wanted our head coach and GM to "hate" a player just like me. No sorry dude. I don't hate Jones at all nor do I want others to. I just actually you know pay for Giants tickets and want them to be good and stuff and overpaying the most expensive and important player on your team off 1 good season I just don't think is a very good way to do that.
Especially when that player is coming off a horrible game in the most important game of his career. And for all of the excusing of his teammates nobody made him make some horrendous decisions and throws as well as plays that had both. Forgive me for not just wanting to be like our fantastic garbage can abusing owner and just only talk about the blessings that Daniel Jones has bestowed upon my life.
It totally makes sense that you don't understand these points if you don't even seem to understand what a market dictated price is.
Jones and Smith both had one good season. Except Smith went to the Pro Bowl and Jones very much did not.
Jones may not have bounced around the league and you can blame Judge and his teammates all you want but normally when you have two horrible seasons followed by 1 good one. That kind of affects your pay a bit, you know?
What can I say. So go root for Geno and Seattle. This is a stupid debate. We get it. A (VERY) vocal group of you don't like our QB. Actually we got it 484,673 posts ago. The fact of the matter is it's not just me that disagrees with you, it's also the current coach(es) and GM. Oh wait, they are being manipulated by the bloody hand.
Yep because that's all it takes to analyze this info
people can't like something and also overpay for it right? Totally impossible?
That is the whole point of the joke you are referring to. But you fail to understand the premise and that is fine. I guess when you can't debate someone anymore it is the old suggest they aren't real fans of the team angle, a real classic!
@MikeGarafolo
The #Giants and QB Daniel Jones beat the clock on the franchise tag, agreeing to terms on a long-term deal, sources tell me and
@RapSheet
.
Jones’ agents and the team worked hard to get this deal done in time. Jones has six fourth-quarter comebacks in his career. Make it seven.
@art_stapleton
·
50s
Giants and Daniel Jones have agreed on a 4-year deal, source confirms, as
@rydunleavy
said.
Giants are tagging Saquon Barkley, per source.
GOOD JOB BY JS
versus the OVERPAY BY JS related threads
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Will need to see how much GTD, cap hits in years 3 and 4, how the dead money breaks down.
I’m okay with the deal. Okay with 40 AAV. He can run the offense,and he ran it at a high level down the stretch. He’s 25, has upside.
If you have any doubt- remember that Schoen and Daboll are smart - they’ve had him in the building, they know his worth better than we do. And they didn’t have to pay him- this was not their draft pick.
They can still work out a deal with SB, so the cap hit could be lower
I think I read that even with, say a 3 year deal with Barkley, the year 1 cap hit would still be $6-$7M.
Will need to see how much GTD, cap hits in years 3 and 4, how the dead money breaks down.
I’m okay with the deal. Okay with 40 AAV. He can run the offense,and he ran it at a high level down the stretch. He’s 25, has upside.
49aav if he plays like mahomes
If you have any doubt- remember that Schoen and Daboll are smart - they’ve had him in the building, they know his worth better than we do. And they didn’t have to pay him- this was not their draft pick.
Not really. It’s only a 4 year deal so you can only amortize so much
Quote:
wait for the numbers, but tagging SB is an immediate $10M cap hit, so I assume the year one hit for Jones's contract will be manageable in order to give them enough cap space to sign some FAs.
They can still work out a deal with SB, so the cap hit could be lower
True.
Lol, yea good luck with that
I don't know. Maybe write Schoen and Daboll a letter and ask them?
Quote:
correct?
Not really. It’s only a 4 year deal so you can only amortize so much
Guaranteed that 4th year is a cap void year. Likely gives Giants at least 25m in amortization.
@BobbySkinner_
·
58s
Daniel Jones’s $40M AAV is 17.7% of the 2023 salary cap.
To compare other unrestricted free agents:
Dak Prescott 21.9%
Kirk Cousins 15.8%
Ryan Tannehill 14.9%
Seems Daniel Jones has set a new precedent for the middle class. Him and his agents won this.
Generally speaking, you spread the signing bonus over the length of the contract. But you can also get creative around that, too.
We just need to see more details.
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Tom Rock, spot on..Hard, creative work indeed
Not gonna talk shit yet, but OH MY…..
CAP HIT IN 23?
lol
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
Really? Curious to see how that money is spread over 2023 and 2024.
Two years ago. Huge difference.
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
Mind putting the rhetoric aside for just a few minutes? Let's celebrate the signing, thinking JS and BD made the right evaluation. You can go back on the attack later.
Everybody knows DJ has to live up to expectations. Duh.
Quote:
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Tom Rock, spot on..Hard, creative work indeed
Great. Since we have no other holes to fill.
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
Quote:
Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
shocking, huh joeinpa?
Quote:
Was 4yrs 160M, 126 total gtd, 96 gtd at signing. For comparison once details emerge.
Two years ago. Huge difference.
Dumbass Jerry Jones.
Not gonna talk shit yet, but OH MY…..
What we will not hear is that their perception of Jones' worth was so much different than Schoen's because they were wrong.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
Quote:
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
Really? Curious to see how that money is spread over 2023 and 2024.
That's the cash in Jones' pocket.
For the cap, a lot of that will be spread over the four years.
Quote:
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I think it means the opposite. I don’t think he’d get more than $100m guaranteed so that only leaves $18m spread over two years. Not ideal but not a death blow.
Quote:
Was 4yrs 160M, 126 total gtd, 96 gtd at signing. For comparison once details emerge.
Two years ago. Huge difference.
Obviously some inflation there but it's worth contextualizing how the guarantees breakdown under similar terms.
Same. Trying to settle myself for what's coming
@BobbySkinner_
·
58s
Daniel Jones’s $40M AAV is 17.7% of the 2023 salary cap.
To compare other unrestricted free agents:
Dak Prescott 21.9%
Kirk Cousins 15.8%
Ryan Tannehill 14.9%
Seems Daniel Jones has set a new precedent for the middle class. Him and his agents won this.
That seems a bit off, 2023 value will be less..
Quote:
In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
football is a fucking team sport. Its not an excuse that the team needs better wrs
Not gonna talk shit yet, but OH MY…..
Maybe wait to talk shit until he plays a few games as a $40 million QB, or you might end up eating it.
I wanted 5 years because I wanted a small cap hit 2023. Very interested in the details now.
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Indeed. Thank Christ.
Will it also end the era of dissecting Jones play weekly with hundreds of posts?? Since it supposedly was done in the vein of figuring out his worth??
I'm guessing not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/11lb3by/rapoport_its_going_to_be_a_4year_deal_worth_160m/
No way, the first year of Jones' contract on the cap is WAY below $40 million. In fact it has to be way below the $32M tag number
So awesome! Plan A for the offseason likely still in effect!
We keep a QB we can solidly win a SuperBowl with. We probably minimize our 1st and maybe 2nd year cap hit....we get to FT Barkley for a pretty manageable number...we modify/extend one of both of Williams and Dex, possibly Adoree to clear more cap space and off we go into FA!
Go GIANTS!!!
The next 2 year cap hits is the BIGGEST info I want to know right now
Quote:
Right?
Will it also end the era of dissecting Jones play weekly with hundreds of posts?? Since it supposedly was done in the vein of figuring out his worth??
I'm guessing not.
Daniel Jones won the day. I think the Giants will win the future as a result.
It’s become hard enough to win paying elite QBs elite QB money. The Giants are going to try to win while paying an average QB elite QB money.
Hope he proves me wrong.
Quote:
In comment 16055287 Anando said:
Quote:
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
Tom Rock, spot on..Hard, creative work indeed
Great. Since we have no other holes to fill.
WTF are you talking about? They NOW can address other areas..JFC
LOL...yeah right.
There will be a fresh batch of them if Jones fails to produce.
Quote:
Right?
Will it also end the era of dissecting Jones play weekly with hundreds of posts?? Since it supposedly was done in the vein of figuring out his worth??
I'm guessing not.
Is it in vain if I don’t care about being wrong or right? Was your Gettleman slurping in vein too?
It’s become hard enough to win paying elite QBs elite QB money. The Giants are going to try to win while paying an average QB elite QB money.
Hope he proves me wrong.
Idiot
Glad he's back. Let's win some fuckin games.
Depending on the structure of the deal, he will likely be the 13th or 14th highest paid QB once Hurts, Lamar, Burrow, and Herbert get their $45+ extensions.
It's reasonable.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
Jets' owner, GM and head coach are flying to meet with Rodgers.
Quote:
In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
LOL, so are you saying that the WR’s aren’t a problem? No need to seriously upgrade the unit?
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact; the unit is pretty bad. Maybe bumped up to mediocre on their best day.
Quote:
A $50 million cap hit next season,
No way, the first year of Jones' contract on the cap is WAY below $40 million. In fact it has to be way below the $32M tag number
Report said $82 million guaranteed the first two years.
Depending on the structure of the deal, he will likely be the 13th or 14th highest paid QB once Hurts, Lamar, Burrow, and Herbert get their $45+ extensions.
It's reasonable.
I’ve been trying to say this for a while now.
Quote:
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
Schoen and Daboll just tied their NYG careers and maybe even more importantly their NFL careers to Daniel Jones for better or worse. That’s what they just told you. And don’t give me that this cake from Mara. If that was true the option would have been picked up last year.
Or is it like Geno’s that went from 35 to 25 once the details came out?
Quote:
I’ll be shocked if we’re ever legit SB contenders while he is here.
It’s become hard enough to win paying elite QBs elite QB money. The Giants are going to try to win while paying an average QB elite QB money.
Hope he proves me wrong.
Idiot
+1
LOL, so are you saying that the WR’s aren’t a problem? No need to seriously upgrade the unit?
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact; the unit is pretty bad. Maybe bumped up to mediocre on their best day.
Look around the league at cuts this week. It’s very hard to keep teams together paying even elite QBs big money. The supporting cast isn’t going to improve to elite without some serious draft luck. Jones now needs to be elite.
Quote:
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I'm not sure you're thinking of that correctly.
The guaranteed money getting paid out early is good. It makes it easier to escape the contract, or re-structure it. You want to get the big money out of the way now, so in year 3, if it's not working, you can move out without a time bomb of dead money.
Quote:
In comment 16055370 jeff57 said:
Quote:
A $50 million cap hit next season,
No way, the first year of Jones' contract on the cap is WAY below $40 million. In fact it has to be way below the $32M tag number
Report said $82 million guaranteed the first two years.
That's the cash in Jones' pocket. It's not the cap.
His bonus will be amortized.
He wasn't since he's been drafted?
Or is it like Geno’s that went from 35 to 25 once the details came out?
No one knows yet.
Quote:
LOL, so are you saying that the WR’s aren’t a problem? No need to seriously upgrade the unit?
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact; the unit is pretty bad. Maybe bumped up to mediocre on their best day.
Look around the league at cuts this week. It’s very hard to keep teams together paying even elite QBs big money. The supporting cast isn’t going to improve to elite without some serious draft luck. Jones now needs to be elite.
Dude you’re a ducking cronic complainer. If giants paid jones a bag of donuts you’d bitch and say not our Boston crème!
Quote:
Right?
Mind putting the rhetoric aside for just a few minutes? Let's celebrate the signing, thinking JS and BD made the right evaluation. You can go back on the attack later.
Everybody knows DJ has to live up to expectations. Duh.
and as if having clowns for coaches for 2-3 years and the worst combination of OL and WRs in the league, are just silly illegitimate excuses.
What's going to make the "excuses era over" isn't Jones getting paid. It's good coaching (which we finally have), better pass pro (got better towards end of '22) and some legit WRs (which Schoen will be adding through draft and maybe FA or trade).
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Sigh.
Incentives have to be earned. So if he plays like it, yeah. If he doesn't, then he doesn't.
Albert Breer
@AlbertBreer
·
44s
Giants QB Daniel Jones will take home $82 million over the first two years of his four-year, $160 million deal, per source. So the base of the first two years of his deal bests the three-year base in Geno Smith's deal.
He resorted to name calling?
You don’t even know the details and how it was structured and you already know the cap hit?
Quote:
Now be really good, or this guy will get fucking destroyed.
He wasn't since he's been drafted?
Yes, but getting this 2nd contract adds to that.
If he turns into the QB version of Kenny Golladay his first 4 years would look like nothing
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wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/11lb3by/rapoport_its_going_to_be_a_4year_deal_worth_160m/
Because they don't know how it's structured or how much is guaranteed.
They see total price (including the incentives and go omgwtfbbq). It's about expectated from the 5 second memory generation.
You do realize those incentives are performance-based, right? Like, he has to play well enough to earn them.
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If so, the DJhaters’ heads are gonna explode.
Not gonna talk shit yet, but OH MY…..
Maybe wait to talk shit until he plays a few games as a $40 million QB, or you might end up eating it.
I did say “not yet”. Are you butt hurt???
I’d guess it’s $100 million with $60 million in signing bonus.
...Daboll and Schoen clearly believe DJ is a top NFL talent.
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In comment 16055410 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
I asked a question. I don’t root against anyone on the Giants.
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In comment 16055330 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
Jones gets $82M guaranteed over the first two years, per
@TomPelissero
82 GTD over the first two years means there is no escape hatch after 2 years. That, or there is barely any cap relief vs the tag, which wouldn't make any sense
I'm not sure you're thinking of that correctly.
The guaranteed money getting paid out early is good. It makes it easier to escape the contract, or re-structure it. You want to get the big money out of the way now, so in year 3, if it's not working, you can move out without a time bomb of dead money.
I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but if he is getting 82 over the first 2 years, that means at least 82 needs to be spent on the cap in the next 3 years (if cut after 2). For the cap hit to get significantly under 32, more of that money is pushed back, so unless next year is a massive hit, there would be very significant dead cap in year 3 if cut. That doesn't account for if there is any non GTD money in year 2, which would add to the total
Next Gen Stats
@NextGenStats
·
19m
Daniel Jones displayed improvement under duress in 2022, completing +4.3% of his passes over expected when pressured (3rd in NFL).
Jones has been pressured on 37.5% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL in 2019, the only QB over 35%.
I don't see how they can afford printing paper after this
How about we just win the NFC East and go from there?
You guys and your stats...
I’d guess it’s $100 million with $60 million in signing bonus.
That's interesting. Curious to see how the cap hits on the guaranteed money looks for 2023 and 2024.
The $60M guaranteed overall looks really low.
Guess I'm confused and need to see more...
I’d guess it’s $100 million with $60 million in signing bonus.
It's probably signing bonus + years 1 and 2 are guaranteed. Probably 45 SB, 13m Year 1 and 24m Year 2 is my guess.
Next Gen Stats
@NextGenStats
·
19m
Daniel Jones displayed improvement under duress in 2022, completing +4.3% of his passes over expected when pressured (3rd in NFL).
Jones has been pressured on 37.5% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL in 2019, the only QB over 35%.
Wow. Better not let the “no more excuses” crowd see that stat.
That's not the full guarantee. That's only the amount of guaranteed dollars in Jones' pocket in 2023 and 2024.
seems like a pretty fair deal
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In comment 16055383 dpinzow said:
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In comment 16055370 jeff57 said:
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A $50 million cap hit next season,
No way, the first year of Jones' contract on the cap is WAY below $40 million. In fact it has to be way below the $32M tag number
Report said $82 million guaranteed the first two years.
That's the cash in Jones' pocket. It's not the cap.
His bonus will be amortized.
the 82 will be his Signing bounus olus 1st 2 years salary
probably 60m in signing bounus and then salsries or 2/20.
Guessing 17 mill cap number this year that jumps to 35 next year.
Year 3 would probably contain some bounus that would trigger so that would be the time for Giants to cut or extend Jones as he would likely have cap numbers over 50
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In comment 16055427 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16055410 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
Can you go away for the rest of the day, and save the negativity until tomorrow, at least? You'll have the next 2-3 years to focus on rooting against our QB. Thanks!
I asked a question. I don’t root against anyone on the Giants.
Glowinski is now the whipping boy at $8m who can’t block. Just cause he got paid I can’t see him having a better year without better OL and WR play. Remember we played last year with like $60m dead money.
Quote:
I’ll be shocked if we’re ever legit SB contenders while he is here.
It’s become hard enough to win paying elite QBs elite QB money. The Giants are going to try to win while paying an average QB elite QB money.
Hope he proves me wrong.
Idiot
Why do you always resort to personal shots when others have a different opinion than yourself?
My money’s on Schoen..:)
I keed, I keed. I see him taking a serious step forward with some talent there! And this deal will look like a steal in 2 years when others are getting $60+.
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In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
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Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
When Schoen drafts a WR in rd 1 or 2, are you going to say why? Are you seriously going to say that we don't need to upgrade our WRs? If so, you would be in a very small minority (of people who all have one thing in common).
If WR talent is so irrelevant why have multiple teams, including the Bills and eagles traded multiple picks including first rounders for #1 WRs?
If Josh Allen and Hurts could've done just as well without Diggs and AJ Brown, why would those well run orgs waste multiple picks for them?
You people make no sense.
Excellent analysis.
I'm also glad that Saquon Barkley was tagged, keeping Barkley is so important for the ground game of Big Blue.
Stand up for our QB!
GO BIG BLUE!
it seems according to some, his weapons were just fine last yr.
You're not alone.
Where was the excuse that he did not have enough money in his wallet?
I've been on BBI long enough to know the debates over hog mollies and the trenches vs. the "shiny new toy" are an annual affair but the Giants receiving corps were remarkably "meh" in 2022. It would be hard for Shoen NOT to improve them this off-season.
seems like a pretty fair deal
Have to see the full structure to see if the Giants can really practically get out with $82m paid.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
Are you man enough to say it?
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
Outside of Barkley which of the other Giants WR's would be starting on another "good" team? How is it "tired"? Their top 2 WR combined for less than 1,300 yards, their #3 WR in yards played in 8/17 games...
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
DeAndre Hopkins
Addison/Njigba/Hyatt
Hodgins
James
Is a transformed WR room.
Quote:
none after the first two years
seems like a pretty fair deal
Have to see the full structure to see if the Giants can really practically get out with $82m paid.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
Well look at what the AJ Brown weapon did for Philly. Other teams have that number 1 difference-maker as well..I think our O improves exponentially in year two of Daboll, if we get that teue number 1 that opens EVERYTHING else
Genuinely curious...
Quote:
The weapons argument is a little tired.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
DeAndre Hopkins
Addison/Njigba/Hyatt
Hodgins
James
Is a transformed WR room.
I would give maybe our last pick in rd 3 for him maybe philly would get him for a 6th
To me, and I love DJ as a athlete/player/talent, he still needs to prove himself. I think that's obvious, you're always proving yourself but he's had one good year (not counting his rookie year).
The team and he have to keep getting better.
Yeah. They played it safe with the option year and he outperformed it.
If they trust his ability to get better, then this isn't a bad problem. Of course, they need to be correct.
Would you please stop? He was a good QB last year..Not great, not elite and certainly not mediocre..
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
The weapons thing was brought up in response to the "excuses" thing.
Considering Hodgins, who was unemployed in early Nov., and then became our best WR, I don't think it's a stretch to think that a 1st or 2nd round pick could make us quite a lot better.
And who knows what else Schoen might do either with a mid tier FA or trade. It's clear he wanted to make a move for a WR before the trade deadline, but the value was bad.
We'll also hopefully get Wan dale back, so I expect our weapons to be quite a lot better in '23. And as a result, I expect Jones to take another leap.
I've been on BBI long enough to know the debates over hog mollies and the trenches vs. the "shiny new toy" are an annual affair but the Giants receiving corps were remarkably "meh" in 2022. It would be hard for Shoen NOT to improve them this off-season.
There really aren't improvements out there in FA for WR. Trade candidates have steep costs associated possibly in draft capital and precious cap space.
Draft is way to go.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Get fucking lost
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Quote:
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Get fucking lost
That said.
He had all the leverage, he had a floor of 32.4 m for 2023. Think how easy it was to play hardball for Jones.
This was really easy to see coming.
Now it’s time to add receiver talent.
Yep, that's the sort of thinking I like.
WR, WR, WR....oh wait.
TE's are nightmare matchups.
Quote:
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
No real problem with that but a no. 1 WR would open so much up for DJ
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16055565 NYG07 said:
Quote:
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
Another stupid post. Really. None of us have an idea yet of the details and the structure, but you come on here and spout “shitty contract?”
Quote:
with it but if we provide him with receiving talent he better be doubling his TD numbers.
How about we just win the NFC East and go from there?
You guys and your stats...
LOL, we can't beat the Cowboys or Eagles. Baby steps.
Well done Football Giants.
Quote:
In comment 16055565 NYG07 said:
Quote:
Terrible deal for the Giants. DJ better get significantly better.
A guy who had fewer than half the total TDs as the best QB in the league is clearly worth only $5M less per year.
As one poster was rooting for, Joe Schoen, Daniel Jones put his dick firmly in your ass.
Need a tissue Nancy?
Nah I am good. I am not 15 years old anymore. I don't have an emotional investment in the Giants. Doesn't change the fact that this is a shit contract.
Says the 16 year old that hasn’t even seen the contract details just goes by AAV 🤡
Quote:
In comment 16055312 drake88 said:
Quote:
with it but if we provide him with receiving talent he better be doubling his TD numbers.
How about we just win the NFC East and go from there?
You guys and your stats...
LOL, we can't beat the Cowboys or Eagles. Baby steps.
No, based on our roster compared to theirs, we couldn’t match up well..Year 2 of Daboll/Jones/Schoen hopefully fills some of the holes
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Quote:
The weapons argument is a little tired.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
Quote:
At least it seems like they're only tied to him for a couple of years, so they can cut bait if he continues to be mediocre.
Would you please stop? ...
Are you seriously asking Greg from LI to stop hating on a Duke alumni?
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Do you actually have an opinion to contribute?
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
That would mean they were wrong about Jones.
Anything is possible but that.
Laughing at the lot of them today.
The spin is hilarious.
We need to sign or draft (preferably draft) a new center and a guard
@JFowlerESPN
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
·
106.7K
Views
1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
prdave the Oline and particularly Neal advancing will do wonders for the offense.
Anyone not recognizing that they need a top WR is a moron but consider the posters suggesting this.
BPA in the draft but this deal allows them to maybe add a impact guy on defense as well.
I completely agree. The big jump from mid tier to top tier for Jones will come when he's not pressured 30%+ of the time.
Hopefully that is a product of Neal rounding into form and an investment in the IOL.
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
This was EASY to see coming.
Quote:
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Do you actually have an opinion to contribute?
Huh? The opinion is that Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Stop bulding clocks and start comprehending what you read.
Quote:
In comment 16055514 christian said:
Quote:
The weapons argument is a little tired.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
A bottom 3 unit in the NFL is a C?
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group. My guess is the Giants don't upgrade the run game, don't upgrade the TE game, and make one high asset investment in the WR group.
My guess is, all things equal the Giants starting skill group next year is pretty similar to 2023, and the lynch pin is how much a rookie WR can outproduce Slayton in year one.
i dont know how your scale is grading but i think a statistical way to look at it would be to say their weapons were somewhere in the 50 percentile range as they scored very close to the 50th percentile in PPG.
as a passer jones was also probably 50th percentile, so id say he was close to neutral with his receivers, but with his overall value as a qb bumped up by what he contributed as a runner.
i dont think slayton is a loss. a full year of hodgins is an upgrade on slayton. i think he could put up a 1k/8td year which is better than anything slayton has ever done.
it's easier said then done but if they get 1 additional true impact WR that's a force multiplier. i dont know if they can find one but i expect it's high on their to do list (and our most accurate asshat said they were all in on moore at the trade deadline). id personally be open to all options from hopkins, to aiyuk, to dj moore, to moving up in the draft if they love jsn/addison/hyatt. i dont know where the best value deal will be so id be engaged across all the above. i think the only thing id be out on is obj because that plane video of him was pretty bad.
Can be put to bed today.
Lol.
Not seeing a lot of character today from posters who have said a lot things with certainty that look really fucking stupid today.
Not impressed
Why?
Gettleman still sucked... Horribly!
Jones doesn't get him off the hook for his piss poor management and FA debacles, and clueless approach to team building.
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
Quote:
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
@JFowlerESPN
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
·
106.7K
Views
1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
Quote:
In comment 16055360 Sean said:
Quote:
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Quote:
In comment 16055619 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
weapons argument is so "tired" that Schoen and Daboll were on board to not only bring back Jones, but to sign him to a 4 year deal.
Seems that they think that Jones performed really well, even without weapons. If we had the weapons, they probably wouldn't have laid so much success last year on Jones.
Is the argument going to pivot to wondering if Schoen and Daboll know what they are doing??
Not only hasn't Jones silenced his "critics", but now they keep inventing new ways to question him.
Do you actually have an opinion to contribute?
Huh? The opinion is that Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Stop bulding clocks and start comprehending what you read.
I completely agree Schoen and Daboll believe in Jones. Why wouldn't they? He did everything they asked of him last year: league leader in a bunch of passing efficiency measures, great ground production, protected himself better in the run game, won a playoff game. He had a resounding successful season.
The Giants were 15th in scoring. Very good run game, efficient pass game.
My view is simply it won't be turn key easy to upgrade the passing targets, who played well down the stretch.
Quote:
Jeremy Fowler
@JFowlerESPN
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
·
106.7K
Views
1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
This was another piece of leverage for Jones. He knew they needed cap relief in 2023. Easy.
Only, they didn’t. Wanted not needed.
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We were bidding against ourselves...
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Jones had more leverage than the Giants and used it to get a very good deal for himself
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
This was EASY to see coming.
Just to be clear, I have no opinion on this yet, I have to see all the numbers...
I was going for a little levity.
prdave the Oline and particularly Neal advancing will do wonders for the offense.
Anyone not recognizing that they need a top WR is a moron but consider the posters suggesting this.
BPA in the draft but this deal allows them to maybe add a impact guy on defense as well.
OL for sure. We just picked a bad year to need a WR in the free agency pool. Not a bumper crop at all. Lots of WRs and WR3s.
The best opportunity looks to be the draft. Maybe a trade or a quality gets unexpectedly cut to get under the cap. But those seems like longer shot solutions at this moment.
Quote:
wow call me shocked ajr acting like a child after the Jones contract news breaks. Give it up already dude.
A child for asking if the kids gloves are off Daniel Jones now? Jones now needs to prove if he’s elite, no “but he doesn’t have this” goalpost moving. I think that’s a fair statement.
If it offends you, go play outside.
He's not going to be able show he is elite (which imo he isn't) until he gets better than lousy receivers and he could use a better IOL. I agree though he is not elite.
Oddly, another poster called the Giants now "Super Bowl Contenders" and that poster was never much of a DJ fan. Very odd. There is no way this team is a contender next year.
Have to see how many years of Jones Giants get for $94M.
Quote:
At least it seems like they're only tied to him for a couple of years, so they can cut bait if he continues to be mediocre.
Would you please stop? He was a good QB last year..Not great, not elite and certainly not mediocre..
Don't ask him to stop.
LAUGH
AT
HIM!
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
Quote:
In comment 16055360 Sean said:
Quote:
Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
If he could handle the pressure of playing a year when 90% of the football world was certain his time as a Giant was done, he can probably handle playing under the scrutiny of critics like you as a multi millionaire.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
That's exactly my point. Among their clear needs is a WR. But I don't think it's a given they'll be able to far and away upgrade last year's skill players.
We're not talking about a bottom 3rd offense, were talking about a top half offense.
We've been over the metrics on James and Slayton enough, they are quality 3 and 4 WRs.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
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In comment 16055632 .McL. said:
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We were bidding against ourselves...
There, I said it! I actually have no idea until all the numbers come out, I just wanted to be the first to say it!
:)
Jones had more leverage than the Giants and used it to get a very good deal for himself
His floor was 32.4m for 2022. It was so easy for him to play hardball. We are lucky he did not get more. He could have kept them from signing anyone until the summer.
This was EASY to see coming.
Just to be clear, I have no opinion on this yet, I have to see all the numbers...
I was going for a little levity.
Jones had all the leverage. The Giants moved up a long way from the beginning and blinked even more at the very end.
The tag 32.4m and Jones got 40m AAV.
Why?
Have to see how many years of Jones Giants get for $94M.
That's certainly an interesting number and could be a huge difference in this deal. Phrasing sounds like it came from an agent, so very curious to see how that plays out.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
Good points on the contract.
If there is no eject button, they are indeed seriously hitched to Jones to win big prizes. That's a big bet.
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
If this effectively a 3 year commitment, it's effectively 2-3 years less than the big dogs are getting locked into.
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it's easier said then done but if they get 1 additional true impact WR that's a force multiplier. i dont know if they can find one but i expect it's high on their to do list (and our most accurate asshat said they were all in on moore at the trade deadline). id personally be open to all options from hopkins, to aiyuk, to dj moore, to moving up in the draft if they love jsn/addison/hyatt. i dont know where the best value deal will be so id be engaged across all the above. i think the only thing id be out on is obj because that plane video of him was pretty bad.
That's exactly my point. Among their clear needs is a WR. But I don't think it's a given they'll be able to far and away upgrade last year's skill players.
We're not talking about a bottom 3rd offense, were talking about a top half offense.
We've been over the metrics on James and Slayton enough, they are quality 3 and 4 WRs.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
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but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
JFC, Thank you, got some respect back from me, not that you care, but my god, at least one of you has some character.
My guess on the first year cap hit is they could have structured it like Carr's, but with a lot of cap room this year, adding $12 million this year frees that money up in future years. Having an extra $6 million in 2024 and 2025 can make a big difference in building long term quality. I bet Schoen got exactly what he wanted cap wise for this year.
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but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
JFC, Thank you, got some respect back from me, not that you care, but my god, at least one of you has some character.
thanks for the respect back? not sure what i did to lose it but glad it's back in my digital piggyback.
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In comment 16055676 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
We were a young team. I felt the product at the end of the year was much better than earlier. We grew as a team. Jones grew as a QB. We opened up the offense. Philly has a cap problem. 5 million over. We are in a much better cap spot in 2023 than we were in 2022.
I do believe we FINALLY made the right hires at GM and HC. The returns from 2022 force me to believe in them until they prove otherwise.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
If the Giants drafting is competent - they should improve a lot. The current group of WR's sucked.
We had a WR cut that was showing off to be our best WR and you are dismissing the idea that the WR can't improve by a lot????
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Yes, again we are agreeing.
If the Giants acquire 5 WRs not on the roster today including a top line guy via a trade, and Robinson recovers well, they could be next year.
Now odds of all that falling into place next year and outperforming the group the Giants had in the homestretch?
If I were investing in the picks and cash, I'd be targeting and IOL.
In comment 16055175 NoGainDayne said:
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.
I think he does and he just knows the Mara's and their feelings about him will force a buckle. I'd say given the news and the way it has played out i'd be very surprised if he isn't signed to the long term deal at $40M+ AAV.
All of these "hey they are meeting again" situations show it is the Giants who are desperate to get something done. Otherwise they should just be like, hey, we are tagging you, you come back to us when you have a more reasonable number.
The Giants are the one with the trump card but it is playing out as Jones exerting the leverage here time and time again. Because he knows how ownership feels about him
I expect this deal doesn't age well. And this was always my problem with DJ, not anything about him just how fond certain people in charge of the team were of him and how harmful that could be to effective negotiations regardless of his production.
I don't really need to argue or care about how much pure agreement JS had on this because the fact is the CEO loves someone so profusely and it changes your perspective on them. And Mara loved this guy more than his output from day one. You build a team well getting value for production.
The proof is in the pudding, we will see how this contract ages. I don't suspect well but I'd love to be wrong. Then we can talk about if JS is just another bad hire or if perhaps there is a different problem.
Thread from the quote - ( New Window )
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as his Oline. Giants need to shore up on the Oline. If it were me, that would be my main priority this entire offseason.
We need to sign or draft (preferably draft) a new center and a guard
^This
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but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
lol.
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Right?
LOL...yeah right.
There will be a fresh batch of them if Jones fails to produce.
once again, how did signing him to a contract change his situation in the offense? Did I miss where we solidified the OL and got him some weapons to throw to? Seriously.. I was not here much for the past two days. Did I miss that?
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In comment 16055465 djm said:
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In comment 16055312 drake88 said:
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with it but if we provide him with receiving talent he better be doubling his TD numbers.
How about we just win the NFC East and go from there?
You guys and your stats...
LOL, we can't beat the Cowboys or Eagles. Baby steps.
No, based on our roster compared to theirs, we couldn’t match up well..Year 2 of Daboll/Jones/Schoen hopefully fills some of the holes
But won't the other teams work to fill their holes too?
In comment 16055175 NoGainDayne said:
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In comment 16055116 Sean said: I don’t think he wants to be here
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.
I think he does and he just knows the Mara's and their feelings about him will force a buckle. I'd say given the news and the way it has played out i'd be very surprised if he isn't signed to the long term deal at $40M+ AAV.
All of these "hey they are meeting again" situations show it is the Giants who are desperate to get something done. Otherwise they should just be like, hey, we are tagging you, you come back to us when you have a more reasonable number.
The Giants are the one with the trump card but it is playing out as Jones exerting the leverage here time and time again. Because he knows how ownership feels about him
I expect this deal doesn't age well. And this was always my problem with DJ, not anything about him just how fond certain people in charge of the team were of him and how harmful that could be to effective negotiations regardless of his production.
I don't really need to argue or care about how much pure agreement JS had on this because the fact is the CEO loves someone so profusely and it changes your perspective on them. And Mara loved this guy more than his output from day one. You build a team well getting value for production.
The proof is in the pudding, we will see how this contract ages. I don't suspect well but I'd love to be wrong. Then we can talk about if JS is just another bad hire or if perhaps there is a different problem. Thread from the quote - ( New Window )
That was as easy to predict as the eventual AAV.
Jones had all the leverage because the tag was 32.4m and he was not easy to replace in the draft or free agency.
IE
You were wrong.
Say it Fonzie!
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but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
if the year 1 hit is 19m then years 2-4 are going to average 47m. that's simple math.
the bigger the signing bonus, the more painful and harder it is to trade or cut a player even in year 3.
the bigger signing bonus is the only way to get the year 1 down to 19m while still paying out 82m in the first 2 years.
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
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In comment 16055727 Eric on Li said:
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but on the positive side something like a hopkins trade becomes a lot more realistic.
i have a feeling when we see more details the biggest story of this contract will be that schoen and daboll didnt give themselves near the emergency chute i would have expected. a lot is still unknown obviously but i think this contract is starting to shape up as a big endorsement of jones as their qb.
I dont know how much you can really say it's an endorsement. They've been clear he's their guy, but it's still 'just' a 4 year deal, and if there's big money in the final two years, it won't be guaranteed money, which means its fluid.
if the year 1 hit is 19m then years 2-4 are going to average 47m. that's simple math.
the bigger the signing bonus, the more painful and harder it is to trade or cut a player even in year 3.
the bigger signing bonus is the only way to get the year 1 down to 19m while still paying out 82m in the first 2 years.
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
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In comment 16055649 wahl35 said:
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Jeremy Fowler
@JFowlerESPN
Daniel Jones' Year 1 cap hit should come in around $19M, I'm told, which seemingly provides flexibility in free agency to address a few positions.
4:59 PM · Mar 7, 2023
·
106.7K
Views
1st year cap hit - ( New Window )
This was another piece of leverage for Jones. He knew they needed cap relief in 2023. Easy.
Only, they didn’t. Wanted not needed.
But allocating on average nearly twenty percent of the cap over the next four years to a middling quarterback is head scratching at best. At worst, it will be one of the worst contracts in NFL history. The dead cap hit in year three will be catastrophic if DJ fails to live up to the elite performance level that the contract demands. Congrats to DJ. This was a master class in how to fleece an NFL organization.
I had thought we had our fill of bad contracts when it was announced that Golladay was going to be cut. But that was a Gettleman disaster. While I do believe Mara again is the primary driver here, that cannot be an excuse. This is Schoen's responsibility now. As DJ goes, so too shall Schoen.
Here's hoping that Daboll is up to the challenge of working his magic again...
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then it's probably time to get off Gettlemans back.
Why?
Gettleman still sucked... Horribly!
Jones doesn't get him off the hook for his piss poor management and FA debacles, and clueless approach to team building.
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In comment 16055514 christian said:
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The weapons argument is a little tired.
How much better do you expect the weapons to be in 2023?
What if the Giants can only roughly replace all of the weapons that are free agents?
hard disagree here. we saw the impact hodgins had in the 2nd half, so finding weapons that make a big impact is possible.
look at olave, wilson, christian watson, pickens, etc last year as rookies.
look at ajb, hollywood, etc and the other vets who changed teams last year.
we've talked through the slayton thing to death but he is a mediocre at best starter, who will get paid (or overpaid) like a mediocre at best starter, and upgrading him shouldn't be challenging. hodgins was an upgrade and he was waived twice/unclaimed by anyone else last year. not saying it's going to be easy to find another hodgins on waivers but they 4 top 100 picks and i'd be gobsmacked if 1 of them isn't a Wr.
The aggregate quality of run and pass weapons of James, Slayton, Hodgins, Bellinger, and Barkley is the baseline.
I'd call that a 7 or solid C group.
This is utter nonsense. You've lumped in the RB with the WR';s which is a complete joke.
You've completely dismissed positional value.
When the Giants beat the Bears and Jones threw for so few yards, you were not impressed, right? Because he didn't throw for enough yardage? You separated his running vs his throwing, didn't you? But now all of a sudden you want to lump in both the WR and RB?
C'mon - evaluate the WR's and stop with the other nonsense.
Genuinely curious...
Tag him.
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As of today the Giants have big questions at 3/4 WR positions.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Yes, again we are agreeing.
If the Giants acquire 5 WRs not on the roster today including a top line guy via a trade, and Robinson recovers well, they could be next year.
Now odds of all that falling into place next year and outperforming the group the Giants had in the homestretch?
If I were investing in the picks and cash, I'd be targeting and IOL.
there arent that many good IOL in FA. pocic is maybe the only guy that's an upgrade on what they had last year and that's debateable. bradberry too and he doesnt fit their scheme.
last year over the year they acquired 4 of their 5 leading receivers - james, hodgins, wandale, and bellinger. 2 minimum salaries, a 2nd round pick who got hurt multiple times and a 4th round pick who also missed some games and the 4 of them combined for like 150 receptions, 1500 yards, and 12 touchdowns.
last year they didnt invest more in the receiver position in part bc they had toney and golladay as projected starters under contract but their productivity ended up far below even the lowest predictions. between the 2 of them i think they caught like 4 passes from jones for less than 20 yards combined. toney literally had 0 receiving yards as a nyg last year.
id wager comfortably that they invest more in the WR position than they did last year and as such it's very possible that they upgrade significantly, just as they did last year.
Can you hear the drums, Anando?.... - ( New Window )
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To the fans upset about this, what exactly did you want the Giants to do? Let him walk for nothing? Draft a QB?
Genuinely curious...
Tag him.
So glad we didn’t!!! That would have been WORST case scenario.
I've also given him credit for his improvement and his good games.
The following made this a pretty unique situation, not the normal negotiation people suggest:
1) 7 QBs have had the franchise tag used on them in the last 30 years. If you want to get into quality other than Cassell Jones has easily the worst on field performance. It shouldn't have gotten this close, he should have been willing to move more but he knew he had us by the balls.
2) Owners rarely blame teammates for the poor performance of their QB
3) Owners rarely publicly commit to a player being their "QB of the future" right before a contract negotiation
4) EXTREMELY RARE for a player to fire his agent right as negotiations are starting
If you can't see a tie to that and the very real situation here where we overpaid a player relative to comps I don't know what to tell you. It is not some imagined thing, there was smoke and now fire.
Most want to pretend like this isn't the same guy that couldn't even handle giving away free soda because we've had one good year. Insufficient for me. I don't mind taking in current trends and the complete body of data to make my assessments.
I expect these comments to age similarly well to my issues with hiring DG, to my comments on their analytics department being behind and yes even my concern that we would overpay this guy regardless of his production.
I don't have any ax to grind here, but my faith is earned. Let's see how it goes, I win either way in my estimation. Unlike some here I'm happy to admit when I am wrong. And I have admitted and will admit that he did more than I thought this season. But I have very consistently been much more concerned about how much we would pay him for his output than the actual output.
nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
Clearly the GM and coach value DJ far more than the resident experts do.
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from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
The year two salary, which is surely guaranteed, will be converted into a signing bonus as part of a simple restructure or another extension. This of course depends on Jones performing as Schoen and Daboll expect.
kicking the can down the road in year 2 of a 4 year extension is the type of thing stupid teams in bad cap situations do. i do not think that's what will happen here btw, im just saying that's a stupid practice typically done by the teams that are perpetually over the cap and scrambling to get under by restructures year after year after year.
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
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nobody has talked about the impact of non-guaranteed years more than i have but from what we know of the structure so far there is likely to be a much bigger camp number in year 2 than i would have predicted and also a lot less flexibility after year 2 to get out. and that's just based on structure not total $.
Clearly the GM and coach value DJ far more than the resident experts do.
i think that's going to be a takeaway of this deal, though we need to see the full details to confirm.
this is derek carr $ but not the derek carr structure at all.
But allocating on average nearly twenty percent of the cap over the next four years to a middling quarterback is head scratching at best. At worst, it will be one of the worst contracts in NFL history. The dead cap hit in year three will be catastrophic if DJ fails to live up to the elite performance level that the contract demands. Congrats to DJ. This was a master class in how to fleece an NFL organization.
I had thought we had our fill of bad contracts when it was announced that Golladay was going to be cut. But that was a Gettleman disaster. While I do believe Mara again is the primary driver here, that cannot be an excuse. This is Schoen's responsibility now. As DJ goes, so too shall Schoen.
Here's hoping that Daboll is up to the challenge of working his magic again...
I'm shocked that more aren't here. Amazing what one good season will do. Agree BD is our shot at making this work and I don't think the task is impossible because of that.
The other thing here is injury. There is some risk of him not taking a step forward, some risk of him taking a step back because the talent around him actually decreases as we have to pay elite money to Dex and AT and also the fact that he has had some injury issues that didn't hold him back in his pay day year but did in the others.
Ultimately this was a risky situation either way for JS IMO. The media circus if Jones was tagged would have been insane, especially if Barkley was lost. Those acting like the only way JS would have agreed to this is because he was 100% down for DJ at these prices are really over-simplifying the situation.
I've also given him credit for his improvement and his good games.
The following made this a pretty unique situation, not the normal negotiation people suggest:
1) 7 QBs have had the franchise tag used on them in the last 30 years. If you want to get into quality other than Cassell Jones has easily the worst on field performance. It shouldn't have gotten this close, he should have been willing to move more but he knew he had us by the balls.
2) Owners rarely blame teammates for the poor performance of their QB
3) Owners rarely publicly commit to a player being their "QB of the future" right before a contract negotiation
4) EXTREMELY RARE for a player to fire his agent right as negotiations are starting
If you can't see a tie to that and the very real situation here where we overpaid a player relative to comps I don't know what to tell you. It is not some imagined thing, there was smoke and now fire.
Most want to pretend like this isn't the same guy that couldn't even handle giving away free soda because we've had one good year. Insufficient for me. I don't mind taking in current trends and the complete body of data to make my assessments.
I expect these comments to age similarly well to my issues with hiring DG, to my comments on their analytics department being behind and yes even my concern that we would overpay this guy regardless of his production.
I don't have any ax to grind here, but my faith is earned. Let's see how it goes, I win either way in my estimation. Unlike some here I'm happy to admit when I am wrong. And I have admitted and will admit that he did more than I thought this season. But I have very consistently been much more concerned about how much we would pay him for his output than the actual output.
You win?
Just listen to you.
ZERO self awareness.
Can you find room in that narrow but large mind of yours that Schoen and Daboll might have been the ones pounding the table for more cash to sign Jones?
They exceeded expectations in year 1 and have Jones to blame for it.
Of course they did not want to start over at QB.
Had to be Mara.
So fucking arrogant.
Of course they will invest. YoY they'll have lost Golladay, Toney, Slayton, James, and Shepard. That's not debatable, they literally have one healthy WR worth anything.
Odds of them significantly upgrading the output the starters had down the stretch? Very possible? Eh, I'd say possible.
And if they're willing to trade assets and invest money for a Hopkins WR, I'd rather they seek out a trade for an IOL.
kicking the can down the road in year 2 of a 4 year extension is the type of thing stupid teams in bad cap situations do.
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In comment 16055688 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16055676 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
Why not?
Why do you think so?
They played an easy schedule. The tougher schdeule so coming while they still have crummy WR''s, a crummy IOL, an OT in Neal still being questioned (by SY among others), and defensive front thta got pushed around by both Philly and Dallas in which we were forced ot play Williams and Lawrence too much. We have poor ILB's so we need if not two, and we need help with another Corner.
Did you feel we were a Contender this year? I find you an excellent poster - but just as a differing opinion - I’m wondering why you think for example that the Giants at this moment are near Philly and San Fran? Frankly not better than Dallas. Seattle and Detroit pushed us around a built. While oy can dismiss the latter 3 maybe 1 or 2 of them but still Dallas is stronger - what is it that you think makes us jump the top teams in the NFC?
Thank you for the kind words.
We were a young team. I felt the product at the end of the year was much better than earlier. We grew as a team. Jones grew as a QB. We opened up the offense. Philly has a cap problem. 5 million over. We are in a much better cap spot in 2023 than we were in 2022.
I do believe we FINALLY made the right hires at GM and HC. The returns from 2022 force me to believe in them until they prove otherwise.
Younger means "better," in all cases? WH can't "better" players trump "younger" players?
You really think the way Philly manages things and their draft pick availability this year the the cap will adversely impact them?
The Giants have no shot to match Philly this year unless injuries destroy them. I might seem negative btu actually this year I expect a downturn so I will not be complaining about w/l record. I expect a good jump in 2024 if they do things right.
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kicking the can down the road in year 2 of a 4 year extension is the type of thing stupid teams in bad cap situations do.
Kicking the can down the road is what every team does every fucking year, so I guess there are 32 teams in the NFL who wish they had your smarts.
and to quote joe schoen he views it as a "last resort". you don't need any kind of special smarts to assume that means it's not something he's doing in year 2 of an extension he just signed.
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In comment 16055676 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
What I do know with a high level of certainty is that when the head of an organization does extremely unorthodox things like publicly blame someone's teammates for their problems and gives them a pass, agents are going to use that as leverage in negotiations.
We clearly overpaid here. It isn't a leap to see the above and other things like saying he's the QB of the future prior to this negotiation hurting your negotiating position.
I don't have random confidence in things. I gain conviction when I see strong logical ties between pieces of information.
I'm not saying JS and DB hate Jones and Mara is forcing their hand. I'm saying that their owner who can't even game theory giving away soda properly often doesn't think through the things he says and that has very real costs for the team. Like overpaying on this contract. He kicks garbage cans like a little kid for gods sake.
There have been and will continue to be real costs for his refusal to properly think through the consequences of his actions. Again I would prefer to be wrong here. I don't know what you are so pissed off about, these are very reasonable perspectives given what has played out in the last 10+ years.
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In comment 16055723 .McL. said:
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In comment 16055676 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
I 100% agree with everything you are saying here. I hope Sean feels the same way.
I have to see about the current contract for Jones. I was against signing him for near $40m. IF this contract is like that, - and they don't win enough in 2024, I'm gonna turn big time on these threads like I did with DG. - Though DG I thought he was a moron from the start.
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In comment 16055866 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055723 .McL. said:
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In comment 16055676 giantstock said:
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In comment 16055407 Sean said:
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In comment 16055400 jintz4life said:
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In comment 16055360 Sean said:
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Led by Jones & Barkley. Probably a 3 year window since I’d imagine Barkley is signed too.
Now it’s time to build the roster.
how can anyone have watched the eagles games and think we're in a super bowl window
I don’t get this logic. The Giants just made a massive commitment to Jones and are bringing back Barkley. And this is the reaction?
They aren't in A Super Bowl window this upcoming year? You don't get that?
I don't think Sean is saying that the Giants are a Super Bowl contender right now.
He is saying that given the players signed and the ramifications that means for the cap, that the team has about 3 years before things start to come crashing down and the cap monster bites.
I hope you're right. But another excellent poster questioned me right after and asked why I thought we weren't. It seemd he though the same too tha twe are one now.
But I agree with you and anyone else that recognizes next year we are not. But if it will take 3 years to be a SB Contender, why sign Barkley or mention the signing in a positive light?
I would have let Barkley walk.
My take on Sean is that he is not happy. His position on this is a challenge. Something like this...
Ok, you spent all this money, if you can't go out and put an SB contender on the field, this was a complete failure. Prove that wrong!
I 100% agree with everything you are saying here. I hope Sean feels the same way.
I have to see about the current contract for Jones. I was against signing him for near $40m. IF this contract is like that, - and they don't win enough in 2024, I'm gonna turn big time on these threads like I did with DG. - Though DG I thought he was a moron from the start.
That's your god-given right as a fan!
LOL you are utterly clueless
They're always investing in it because the last front office failed to find them
I'm with ya Sean
I think because the expected outcome is to be able to consistently compete to be in the Super Bowl. While I can hope to get into a Super Bowl, the realistic expectation is to get far into the playoffs. Once you get to the playoffs anything can happen.
But for shits and giggles, what do you think the fans of the Browns are thinking with a QB that is getting triple the guaranteed money Jones is getting?
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The Giants are always investing in WR it feels like. Get faster on defense.
They're always investing in it because the last front office failed to find them
The last Front Office failed to find a lot of things...
WRs
TEs
IOLs
LBs
Need 2 of these and they only found 1 OT, 1 Edge (maybe), 1 CB (sort of)
I'm not sure the last FO could find their ASS with a roadmap!
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In comment 16055640 prdave73 said:
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as his Oline. Giants need to shore up on the Oline. If it were me, that would be my main priority this entire offseason.
We need to sign or draft (preferably draft) a new center and a guard
.
^This
Agreed. I’d be thrilled if Torrence is there at 25 and is their pick.
The best opportunity looks to be the draft. Maybe a trade or a quality gets unexpectedly cut to get under the cap. But those seems like longer shot solutions at this moment.
It's BBI. You have to be happy with everything that happens. No exceptions!
No "random confidence"?? You are the blithering fool who said Jones lacked the personality to succeed based on finding a chair at a press conference. And have stood by that craptastic take.
You are the guy who said that Jones doesn't have swagger and will never have swagger because of the way his body language is.
That's the definition of random confidence, and no amount of posting resumes and credentials is going to change those bomabstic "convictions".
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
How on earth was it fiscally challenging? They didn't have to get creative to fit both under the salary cap. What a weird take from Tom Rock. There was nothing hard or challenging about finding a way to bring both back. The only question was where the Giants would draw the line on what they were willing to pay.
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In comment 16055764 Eric on Li said:
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
that's an interesting point.
first obvious thing is they wouldn't have needed to extend him now.
but that aside, the tag is going up next year over 40m, so the next 3 years would actually probably play out pretty similarly in terms of cap #'s.
if jones has a big year that improves his value the nyg will be lucky to have extended him early and if things go the opposite way maybe the opposite will be true. but daboll has coached him for a year now so if he likes jones now i think back to your original question, the only thing that's different is they are in a slightly better negotiating position to get a slightly better deal than they got today but they probably still try to extend him at a similar year 1 #.
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any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
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In comment 16056027 ColHowPepper said:
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In comment 16055764 Eric on Li said:
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
thanks for clearing that up.
there are a lot of levers they can pull to have room this offseason, and they just pulled a big one by artificially reducing jones salary by 21m less than his AAV and 13m less than the tag amount would have been.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
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In comment 16056051 Eric on Li said:
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any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
it's possible but FA is so thin at WR this year and Robinson's injury status is a big unknown so it's hard to see them chancing it to the draft if they let james/slayton go elsewhere. id rather spend 20m on an impact player like hopkins than giving either of the other 2 a multi-year deal that will probably get inflated beyond where either of them should be paid because of this year's WR crop.
would i prefer someone younger than hopkins? of course but aiyuk is costing a 1st+. i dont think higgins is getting traded. maybe you can get someone like tyler boyd or tim patrick for a day 3. at the moment hopkins is the only guy we know is actually on the trade market.
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In comment 16056058 section125 said:
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In comment 16056051 Eric on Li said:
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any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
The people here that are distinctly unhappy, are part of the “dump Jones for a bag of donuts” crowd. Impossible to make them happy.
Just stay patient and keep building.
Much like the 2021 Knicks who had a surprise playoff birth, they shouldn’t give away premium assets just to make a move. If Jones and Daboll are worth their salaries they should be able to get 70% of Hopkins production from another guy on the trade market who is cheaper or younger.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
semantics but id do the toney pick which is late day 2 or day 3 pick like cooper last year. either of those picks could be daniel bellinger that contributes a lot or like ezeudu/belton/flott is a typical rookie struggles to get off the bench. you are very unlikely to get a deandre hopkins though. in 9 games last year he averaged 80 ypg and put up 10 more receptions than any giant in the full year.
i wouldnt do the 1st or 2nd because those are basically day 1 starters at this point.
getting an impact player on a 2 year deal at a reasonable aav and with 0 guaranteed money is worth something as long as he has the right attitude.
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
This post took courage
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In comment 16056095 Eric on Li said:
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
Have the Giants invested wisely in WR? The past BAD investments in Golladay and Toney are meaningless; sunk costs. Schoen can't say - oh well, we tried. They weren't even his mistakes to begin with.
I agree we need more talent on defense, but there's no way Schoen doesn't draft a WR in rd 1 or 2 and probably add a mid tier FA too.
It’s a good RB draft and there are competent RBs in free agency would would have been fine. And running the ball is more about the line and scheme than the RB.
That being said let’s hope Jones improves. Im certainly rooting for him and the team. He definitely improved this year and that was with a bad OL and poor WRs. Im just risk averse w huge contracts and I’m not sure Jones is worth it. The Giants have been burned too many times recently signing guys to big deals who weren’t worth it because “what was the other option?”.
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In comment 16056126 Eric on Li said:
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
What about the rest of the team? Why are we expending cap space and premium draft assets for declining players? Schoen needs to use his assets wisely and capture premium value across the roster. Trading high picks and devoting massive cap space only works if there’s a home run hitter at WR.
Hopkins isn’t it. Higgins isn’t it. DJ Moore isnt available. There’s no AJ Brown or Davante Adams available this off-season and probably not next year either.
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.
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
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Right?
This post took courage
that's one way of putting it
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In comment 16056121 ajr2456 said:
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.
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
anything is possible, falcons could be a good fit for hopkins but not sure how enthused he'd be if ridder is the qb. bears not as much since they already gave up the 32nd pick for claypool. im just saying id make the call.
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In comment 16056095 Eric on Li said:
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
Better option? - simple - anyone but a guy that will cost $34 mill next two years and is over 30. And, I do like him as a player a lot. FWIW, had anyone here ever heard of Hodgins before Schoen brought him in? There are other WRs out there better than Hodgins that we have never heard of but Schoen, Daboll and Kafka know about. IIRC, You brought up DJ Moore as an example of Schoen looking into players with big $$s. Moore is 26? Almost the same $$ as Hopkins with an extra year at $14 mill. 5 years younger. This may be doable.
I think Schoen is looking to re-sign his own guys 1st. He said that. He said no splashes in FA - I think this applies to trades with large contracts attached.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
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Right?
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
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In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
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Right?
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
He most certainly does, big steps.
Super Bowl or bust is every teams goal each year.
Just because you re getting push back doesn’t mean you aren’t correct
If Jones and Barkley are going to win a Super Bowl of course this is their window.
Fair enough, some knew of him, but hardly well known. Yet, still nobody else in the NFL picked him up either time. But then again, you do make my point. There are good WRs out there that can be had for little to nothing.
im taking hopkins remaining 33m all day over spending anything similar on lazard regardless of age. hopkins 9 game numbers last year are basically lazards career year.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
It doesn't. In hindsight they should've picked up the option, I think even those that aren't pro Jones would agree. They didn't, doesn't matter.
And also till I see how Jones plays this year. If he regresses, oh my, this place is gonna be fun.
Clearly.
Now, we can fight about why or blame Mara.
Or
We can behind what we finally have.
A core
Jones
Barkley
Thomas
Dex
This
McKinney
Use that and draft and fix some holes.
Get excited.
Also, stupid things you say in this thread could wind up on TV.
Just sayin' they like to.make fun of the trolls in times like these.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
LOL, what? Earlier you were bitching about fans making excuses for jones - specifically calling out the season long complaints about the lack of talent at WR - and now you’re admitting they need a “massive influx of talent”??
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
"75% of Hopkins from two players" is a lower-tier #2 or upper-tier #3 receiver in Lazard and a #3 receiver in Peoples-Jones
I hope Jones takes a big step forward and makes the contract look like a great deal.
I also don't mind debating the merits of decisions or the thinking behind them. It doesn't cause me any grief or misery or whatever. Anything I say people can mock on TV all they want. Not going to change what I think.
And I unfortunately I think we will regret this contract and that was a risk before we planted Jones firmly in the drivers seat on these negotiations. But I most definitely will be happily wrong about that. The playoff wins must continue though, nothing short of that will be a success. No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
Yes they are.
Oh and psssst: 75% of Hopkins from TWO players is not the massive influx of talent you think it is.
Now 75% from one player? Given the state of the WR roster last year, definitely. But from two players, that’s basically what they had in slayton and James.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
You seem to be a very miserable, angry person. Not sure why this opinion has driven you to the point of name calling but whatever floats your boat.
If you can read, I said I’m not talking about stats, just straight talent.
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In comment 16055347 djm said:
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In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
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Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
football is a fucking team sport. Its not an excuse that the team needs better wrs
Of course it is. Ready for me to prove it?
Why didn't DJ throw more than 15 TDs? Quite frankly, that total sucks. What's his excuse?
He’s not as good as Diggs, but their first 3 years have a very similar arc. Diggs career didn’t hit its stride until Minnesota got him better QB play. The Giants can improve the weapons by throwing a bunch of darts at a above average younger wide receivers and hoping one or two break out, instead of putting all their eggs in the Hopkins basket and hoping his not on the downside of his career. It’s more cost effective, while also improving the depth in a position room that hasn’t been able to stay healthy over the years.
the guys on the chopping block are older or higher paid players like hopkins and sutton. just like cooper last year who ended up being probably one of the best bargains of last offseason. tyler boyd is someone id be interested in since it seems like cincy is going to extend higgins. aiyuk is going to be expensive but id make that call. not sure id give up the first for him but maybe. id check back in on dj moore.
bottom line is UFA sucks but they still need to find better players to replace james/slayton. isaiah mckenzie is another guy id try to grab from buffalo since it seemed like shakur kind of took his spot by the end of the year. schoen mentioned upgrading the return game and hed do that too.
McKenzie is another guy I would go after, and I’m sure he’s on Schoen’s radar.
No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
Yes he does. Right now the wr's suck. Nothing has changed yet in that regard.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Very disappointed with the Giants if these numbers are accurate. .
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
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LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
You seem to be a very miserable, angry person. Not sure why this opinion has driven you to the point of name calling but whatever floats your boat.
If you can read, I said I’m not talking about stats, just straight talent.
Yeah, he's basically a poor man's Fatman.
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Now you have to beat the other trucks.
Now you have to beat the other trucks.
Pfft, in baseball it was prove yourself and accept a pay cut...
Schoen and Daboll: You habe a QB, you have your RB back and you have cap space and draft capital to go out and fill out this roster. No more excuses about the cap constraints, are you going to hit on every player? absolutely not but you gotta hit on 75%. Roster has some pieces but now is the time to identify the keepers and to add to those..
Jones: You are a 40 million dollar QB, the excuses are done, whether you like Jones or not its put up or shut up time. This isnt a knock on Jones this is how it works, you get paid, the expdctations get elevated. You had a good year this year..guess what? next yesr has to be better, i dont cae who the Giants add, next year has to be better
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
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If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
Depends on when the additional $12M in "virtual guarantees" is triggered, but if it is not fully guaranteed before start of the 3rd season then the dead cap hit would be $36M if they let him go after 2024 season.
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This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Thank you kdog. That’s a $48mm cap hit if Jones disappoints and the Giants part ways with him after 2024. Jeez. I sure hope Jones keeps making progress.
(48 = 36 (unamortized signing bonus) + 12 in guarantees in 2024/5)
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
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and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
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and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
We don't know yet. Maybe they are very unlikely like SB MVP or very likely. If the latter, then this contract is really insane paying him nearly 49M AAV. 4M more than Mahomes.
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In comment 16056435 kdog77 said:
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and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
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In comment 16056512 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 16056435 kdog77 said:
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and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
I did the same exercise here for a 40M signing bonus
[url]https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&
thread=632835&show_all=1#16056360[/url]
Fucking fact.
Make no mistake his goal 2023 is win enough games to get in the tournament.
Then win more games.
I do not give a flying fuck howany TDs he throws next year.
He is accountable for wins.
That is what being paid 40 AAV means.
Fucking win baby.
.
Jones has to produce.
This year he was going to be the QB on the tag anyway. If he bombs this year or gets hurt, it’s a bad deal.
But then in 2024 he’s got the big cap hit, so if 2023 is a disaster and the Giants are in position to draft someone they still probably will. That’s 2 years.
It’s not like 3 years is that long. They could have had a stop gap for that entire time. Look at Washington.
How do teams win at a high level in the NFL today?
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
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and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
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In comment 16056644 Kmed6000 said:
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and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
first off those numbers are pretty similar to what i posted but in 2024 the roster bonus making up the difference would be 100% guaranteed and counted the same as salary so it's irrelevant. remember the number that's been reported is 82m guaranteed and paid in the first 2 years. that's what we need to add up to.
a 48m signing bonus gets acocunted for on the cap as 12m hits each year. so your 2023 would be right (12 +7 = 19).
your year 2 wouldn't get jones to 82m guaranteed though. 20 + 7 + 12 + 12 = 51 (plus the remaining 24m SB to be accounted for in years 3+4 = 75m). so there's still 7m guaranteed$ missing that would have to be paid through your roster bonus which would hit the cap exactly the same as salary making his year 2 cap hit 27m + 12m = 39m.
your last 2 years are also light because that adds up to 70m in salary when there's 78m left on the deal. i think there's a 12m roster bonus in 2025 that likely triggers in 2024 and is maybe currently on guaranteed for injury but we will probably get those details today.
what this exercise shows though (your numbers included) is how even with a substantial signing bonus the cap hits are going to accelerate quickly.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
i dont think there's going to be an escape hatch until year 3 and i dont think it's going to be all that appealing.
in year 2 if they have only accounted for 19m of 82m guaranteed, then the dead money risk is at least 63m. his base that year is likely to be in the 20's or 30's, so to move on from jones next year will probably cost the NYG an extra 30-40m (which is that 75% remainder of the signing bonus not yet accounted for).
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
2023 = 8% (19m / 229m)
2024 = 15% (38m / 256m)
2025 = 17% (48m / 282m)
2026 = 18% (55m / 308m)
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
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Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
2023 = 8% (19m / 229m)
2024 = 15% (38m / 256m)
2025 = 17% (48m / 282m)
2026 = 18% (55m / 308m)
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
Their words and actions CLEARY show the team BELIEVES they can win hardware with Jones.
Now, go do it.
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
But no matter, he's here and Daboll and Schoen have hitched their jobs to the DJ-Barkley combo wagon. Let's hope it all works out.
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im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
Quote:
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
that or there's a veteran on a big 1 year deal they like as low risk short term bandaid (like hopkins) as they get robinson healthy and look to draft more skill talent.
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
i think the strategy here is to restructure year to year as they need to as opposed to carrying the dead money risk if traded/cut ahead of time.
very interesting and i dont think ive seen a deal structured this way before where there's such a rapid acceleration above the AAV in year 2.
Quote:
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Here's the thing, IMO - the WR excuse cuts both ways.
You don't know, for example, if KC's WRs are independently better than NYG's because you don't know how much better Mahomes makes them compared to DJ with his own receivers.
I know that when Eli was here, not a single one of his WRs throughout his entire career ever had a better run with any other QB than they had with Eli. So that tells me that Eli elevated their level of play. With DJ, we can't even necessarily say for sure whether any of the WRs he's played with would even make some other teams' rosters, so it's fair to note that as a limitation that DJ has faced, but you also can't say with any certainty exactly how good his WRs would need to be in order for him to flourish.
Does he need two bona fide stud WRs like Hill and Waddle, the way Tua did? Or like Metcalf and Lockett who were a huge part of Geno's late-blossoming career year? Or could he get by with one elite receiving weapon and a bunch of other pretty good receivers (slightly above JAG but not drastically) the way that Mahomes did this past year with Kelce and a handful of interchangeable journeymen at WR, or the way that Josh Allen has with Diggs as his alpha WR1 and then Gabe Davis and others cleaning up in favorable situations due to the attention Diggs commands?
If it's the former (surrounded by excellent receivers), it's going to be challenging and expensive to acquire those receivers, which could in turn mean that DJ's contract may not end up as a great value, if we end up having to spend as much in picks and dollars as an elite QB would cost while also having to pay DJ his money on top of that. If it's the latter (one elite stud, several complementary pieces), not only is the path to improvement significantly easier to navigate, but it also leaves open a much stronger possibility of DJ's new contract representing a potential bargain.
Personally, I don't love this contract, and it has nothing to do with being stubbornly attached to years of criticizing DJ's play. What I don't like about the contract is specifically that it feels half-pregnant to me, and that's a concern I've voiced for months. And as a NY sports fan in general, it's crazy to me to think about DJ making more money per season during this contract than Aaron Judge will make. Different sports, different ages, different levels of guarantee, I get it. But only one of those guys is a legit superstar, and it ain't the one making $40M a year.
I would have be thrilled with a cheaper AAV, obviously. And I would have been very happy to give DJ an even higher AAV and more guarantees a year from now with another good season on the books after making him play 2023 on the tag. What I don't love is being in the middle of those two scenarios. We aren't saving THAT much compared to the next tier of QB salaries above DJ that it gives us any sort of favorable cap advantage for this year (unless the contract is structured in such a way that the implied AAV in cap numbers really jumps for 2024-26), and I'd have rather seen DJ force his way into that next group up and then pay the piper for what would then be, IMO, a proven elite QB.
Obviously that wasn't the way Schoen and Daboll viewed it, and I'm satisfied to continue rooting for DJ and the Giants knowing that the front office braintrust knows more than I do. As it is, I'm excited that DJ already proved enough to earn this contract in the first place, even if I would have tagged him instead - no one but the biggest pollyannas on here would have predicted a nine-figure contract for DJ a year ago. Now let's see what the Giants do next. If they can't get him the receiving help he needs, this contract is going to be a very expensive way to finish in the middle of the league on offense and pray for 9-10 wins per season for the next few years. But if they do get DJ the tools he needs and he takes off, we're in great shape. Nothing to do now but root and wait.
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
Link - ( New Window )
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
I think you're missing the point. I can only speak for myself here, but I'll go ahead and concede every one of those excuses for you. And I don't even disagree about the general ranking of top 10-15 in the league. Maybe I'd put DJ closer to 15 and you'd put him closer to 10, whatever.
The point, though, is that I generally think it's foolish to get attached (and financially committed) to any player at any position who is just basically around the middle third of the league's starters at that position. I have said it all along (and allude to it in my longer post above): I'd rather pay through the nose for the absolute elite, or go cheap (or at least painless to separate very quickly) for anything below that. There's only three tiers of players in the NFL, IMO: 1) elite, 2) interchangeable, 3) wasting a roster spot. I wouldn't feel great about spending truly big bucks on any player who doesn't fall into the first group, regardless of their position on the field.
That's not the way JS/BD viewed it. Such is life. It's their jobs on the line, not mine. I can trust them to make the right decision and simultaneously acknowledge that it's not the decision I'd have made with the limited information I have available to me.
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
I think so, yes. My hunch is that this signing was equal parts them liking Jones and not seeing a preferable alternative. I don't think the playoffs swung their thinking terribly much, although seeing him play well on the road in the playoffs almost certainly didn't hurt either.
Inside the Daniel Jones deal - ( New Window )
Quote:
He didn't leave much on the table did he?
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
No. Whatever he paid the agents was worth every penny, and I wonder of Schoen was able to sit down at the press conference.
tell that to Lamarr Jackson...lol
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
Quote:
In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
I mean it is really simple... if this was a 3 year/127 million dollar contract that would mean his 4th year salary would only be 33million base salary... No way that is the case. No need to freak out.
Agent puts out 82 million over the first two years because he is including the signing bonuses in there which is paid up front.
Most like it is a 50ish million signing bonus which spread over the contract for salary cap purposes. So call it 12.5 million a year spread out over the cost of the contract for signing bonus.
Year one 7Million base + 12.5 Million 19.5 Million cap hit Fully Guaranteed.
Year two 30 million base + 12.5 Million 42.5 Million cap hit fully Guaranteed
Year three 30 million base + 12.5 million 42.5 cap hit
Year four 43 million base + 12.5 Million 55.5 million cap hit
This is just another example of how you can have 82 million over the first two years guaranteed (because the agent is including the signing bonus as part of that) and this would be 3/117... you can work the numbers even more to get it lower. My point being no way his is base salary going to be 33 million in year 4 which is what you have. So yes your math is probably wrong. Let's just wait until we see the numbers and not go by what an agent wants people to think he got his client.
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Quote:
In comment 16056888 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Thank you Gatorade.
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Quote:
In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Gotcha
Quote:
In comment 16056825 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Emphasis mine, inaccuracy yours.
These numbers aren’t “they wanted him badly” numbers. They’re “we think he’s a little better than Geno Smith” numbers.
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I don't take issue with that statement at all. He was pretty determined to win the Indy and Minny playoff game. He had some 4th quarter comebacks, and it wasn't like he had a great surrounding cast minus AT and Saquon for most of the year. That's a whole lot different than "he's elite" or some of the other things you have there. I am probably as big a Jones supporter as there is on BBI, and I don't think he's elite or near Mahomes level, and I haven't seen it written. Although I do disappear from those thousand page DJ debate threads with a migraine after 4 or 5 pages... lol
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
Quote:
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Quote:
In comment 16057555 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Tell them to get an actual weapon when ... you mentioned his actual weapon. Barkley chopped liver or something?
Yep. And Barkley's killer 2022 games get erased. Those never happened. MIB pen on BBI?
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In comment 16057570 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16057555 ajr2456 said:
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It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Ok Mr. Detractor and ridiculous OP. Simple question.
Why does Jones deserve more money than Geno Smith? Geno went to the pro bowl this year. They are both had only one season anything even remotely of note. Why does Jones deserve a fair amount more?
Age isn't really relevant because Geno is on a shorter deal that is easy to get out of faster and he really isn't that old.
So what is it then?
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.
You do realize what a bad point this is right? Jones can't get paid what the market dictates if he never hit the market. That is literally inaccurate. And besides we heard from our own beat writer that the Giants were willing to pay more than other teams.
My exact point that you mocked is the whole "situation" thing. I mean I know you don't really understand what a market dictated price is but is it possible for you to understand that when an owner blames the teammates of a player in public for their poor play. When they say he's our QB of the future before a negotiation begins that it might hurt the ability to get the best deal in that negotiation?
And you totally got me man. I wanted our head coach and GM to "hate" a player just like me. No sorry dude. I don't hate Jones at all nor do I want others to. I just actually you know pay for Giants tickets and want them to be good and stuff and overpaying the most expensive and important player on your team off 1 good season I just don't think is a very good way to do that.
Especially when that player is coming off a horrible game in the most important game of his career. And for all of the excusing of his teammates nobody made him make some horrendous decisions and throws as well as plays that had both. Forgive me for not just wanting to be like our fantastic garbage can abusing owner and just only talk about the blessings that Daniel Jones has bestowed upon my life.
It totally makes sense that you don't understand these points if you don't even seem to understand what a market dictated price is.
Jones may not have bounced around the league and you can blame Judge and his teammates all you want but normally when you have two horrible seasons followed by 1 good one. That kind of affects your pay a bit, you know?
That is the whole point of the joke you are referring to. But you fail to understand the premise and that is fine. I guess when you can't debate someone anymore it is the old suggest they aren't real fans of the team angle, a real classic!