When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
It's BBI. You have to be happy with everything that happens. No exceptions!
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
this has to go down as one of the funniest posts in years!!
Quote:
I don't have random confidence in things. I gain conviction when I see strong logical ties between pieces of information.
No "random confidence"?? You are the blithering fool who said Jones lacked the personality to succeed based on finding a chair at a press conference. And have stood by that craptastic take.
You are the guy who said that Jones doesn't have swagger and will never have swagger because of the way his body language is.
That's the definition of random confidence, and no amount of posting resumes and credentials is going to change those bomabstic "convictions".
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
Tom Rock
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
How on earth was it fiscally challenging? They didn't have to get creative to fit both under the salary cap. What a weird take from Tom Rock. There was nothing hard or challenging about finding a way to bring both back. The only question was where the Giants would draw the line on what they were willing to pay.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
that's an interesting point.
first obvious thing is they wouldn't have needed to extend him now.
but that aside, the tag is going up next year over 40m, so the next 3 years would actually probably play out pretty similarly in terms of cap #'s.
if jones has a big year that improves his value the nyg will be lucky to have extended him early and if things go the opposite way maybe the opposite will be true. but daboll has coached him for a year now so if he likes jones now i think back to your original question, the only thing that's different is they are in a slightly better negotiating position to get a slightly better deal than they got today but they probably still try to extend him at a similar year 1 #.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
thanks for clearing that up.
question for the "they wont trade for an expensive veteran WR" group
rico said they were all in on dj moore at the deadline. he has a 20m guaranteed salary this year. do you think schoen didnt realize that at the time?
there are a lot of levers they can pull to have room this offseason, and they just pulled a big one by artificially reducing jones salary by 21m less than his AAV and 13m less than the tag amount would have been.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
Trading for someone younger with less tread on the tires than Hopkins.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
it's possible but FA is so thin at WR this year and Robinson's injury status is a big unknown so it's hard to see them chancing it to the draft if they let james/slayton go elsewhere. id rather spend 20m on an impact player like hopkins than giving either of the other 2 a multi-year deal that will probably get inflated beyond where either of them should be paid because of this year's WR crop.
would i prefer someone younger than hopkins? of course but aiyuk is costing a 1st+. i dont think higgins is getting traded. maybe you can get someone like tyler boyd or tim patrick for a day 3. at the moment hopkins is the only guy we know is actually on the trade market.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
but it got done. As we learn more, it’s likely both sides got something they wanted.
The people here that are distinctly unhappy, are part of the “dump Jones for a bag of donuts” crowd. Impossible to make them happy.
For a 30 year old WR who might be on the downturn just seems like a reactionary move.
Just stay patient and keep building.
Much like the 2021 Knicks who had a surprise playoff birth, they shouldn’t give away premium assets just to make a move. If Jones and Daboll are worth their salaries they should be able to get 70% of Hopkins production from another guy on the trade market who is cheaper or younger.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
For a 30 year old WR who might be on the downturn just seems like a reactionary move.
semantics but id do the toney pick which is late day 2 or day 3 pick like cooper last year. either of those picks could be daniel bellinger that contributes a lot or like ezeudu/belton/flott is a typical rookie struggles to get off the bench. you are very unlikely to get a deandre hopkins though. in 9 games last year he averaged 80 ypg and put up 10 more receptions than any giant in the full year.
i wouldnt do the 1st or 2nd because those are basically day 1 starters at this point.
getting an impact player on a 2 year deal at a reasonable aav and with 0 guaranteed money is worth something as long as he has the right attitude.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
RE: Hopkins isn’t coming for a third rounder though
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
RE: The Giants defense was slow and exposed by Dallas & Philly
The Giants are always investing in WR it feels like. Get faster on defense.
Have the Giants invested wisely in WR? The past BAD investments in Golladay and Toney are meaningless; sunk costs. Schoen can't say - oh well, we tried. They weren't even his mistakes to begin with.
I agree we need more talent on defense, but there's no way Schoen doesn't draft a WR in rd 1 or 2 and probably add a mid tier FA too.
I would have franchised jones and let Barkley walk. To me it was an easy decision. The cap hit this year would have been the same as this outcome and they’d have no dead money moving forward if Jones doesn’t improve.
It’s a good RB draft and there are competent RBs in free agency would would have been fine. And running the ball is more about the line and scheme than the RB.
That being said let’s hope Jones improves. Im certainly rooting for him and the team. He definitely improved this year and that was with a bad OL and poor WRs. Im just risk averse w huge contracts and I’m not sure Jones is worth it. The Giants have been burned too many times recently signing guys to big deals who weren’t worth it because “what was the other option?”.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
What about the rest of the team? Why are we expending cap space and premium draft assets for declining players? Schoen needs to use his assets wisely and capture premium value across the roster. Trading high picks and devoting massive cap space only works if there’s a home run hitter at WR.
Hopkins isn’t it. Higgins isn’t it. DJ Moore isnt available. There’s no AJ Brown or Davante Adams available this off-season and probably not next year either.
Glad Barkley is coming back though who ... dare I say, should get more or the credit for the success the Giants had in 2022 than Jones. Boy am I living dangerously? But seriously glad he is playing along side Jones. Jones needs him.
RE: RE: Hopkins isn’t coming for a third rounder though
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
anything is possible, falcons could be a good fit for hopkins but not sure how enthused he'd be if ridder is the qb. bears not as much since they already gave up the 32nd pick for claypool. im just saying id make the call.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
Better option? - simple - anyone but a guy that will cost $34 mill next two years and is over 30. And, I do like him as a player a lot. FWIW, had anyone here ever heard of Hodgins before Schoen brought him in? There are other WRs out there better than Hodgins that we have never heard of but Schoen, Daboll and Kafka know about. IIRC, You brought up DJ Moore as an example of Schoen looking into players with big $$s. Moore is 26? Almost the same $$ as Hopkins with an extra year at $14 mill. 5 years younger. This may be doable.
I think Schoen is looking to re-sign his own guys 1st. He said that. He said no splashes in FA - I think this applies to trades with large contracts attached.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
He most certainly does, big steps.
And the Giants do have to become Super Bowl contenders
He was no mystery. A lot of us were surprised the Giants didn’t claim him in August, or pursue him while he was on Buffalo’s practice squad. Fortunately, they got another chance.
When you make this kind of commitment in a QB, you do it because you feel he can lead the team to a Super Bowl during the contract. I’m shocked I’m getting pushback on this.
Just because you re getting push back doesn’t mean you aren’t correct
If Jones and Barkley are going to win a Super Bowl of course this is their window.
RE: Section125: Minor correction on Isaiah Hodgins.
He was no mystery. A lot of us were surprised the Giants didn’t claim him in August, or pursue him while he was on Buffalo’s practice squad. Fortunately, they got another chance.
Fair enough, some knew of him, but hardly well known. Yet, still nobody else in the NFL picked him up either time. But then again, you do make my point. There are good WRs out there that can be had for little to nothing.
and he's probably going to get paid more than 10m per year like mvs did. spotrac projects a slightly higher 3 years 37m with presumably a chunk of that guaranteed (mvs got 15m gtd). that's a hard pass from me.
im taking hopkins remaining 33m all day over spending anything similar on lazard regardless of age. hopkins 9 game numbers last year are basically lazards career year.
On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
LOL, what? Earlier you were bitching about fans making excuses for jones - specifically calling out the season long complaints about the lack of talent at WR - and now you’re admitting they need a “massive influx of talent”??
It's BBI. You have to be happy with everything that happens. No exceptions!
No "random confidence"?? You are the blithering fool who said Jones lacked the personality to succeed based on finding a chair at a press conference. And have stood by that craptastic take.
You are the guy who said that Jones doesn't have swagger and will never have swagger because of the way his body language is.
That's the definition of random confidence, and no amount of posting resumes and credentials is going to change those bomabstic "convictions".
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
@TomRock_Newsday
·
7s
It was always going to be fiscally challenging to bring both Jones and Barkley back for 2023. The Giants have figured out a way to do that. Hard, creative work.
Now we wait to see if there is wisdom to it.
How on earth was it fiscally challenging? They didn't have to get creative to fit both under the salary cap. What a weird take from Tom Rock. There was nothing hard or challenging about finding a way to bring both back. The only question was where the Giants would draw the line on what they were willing to pay.
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In comment 16055764 Eric on Li said:
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
that's an interesting point.
first obvious thing is they wouldn't have needed to extend him now.
but that aside, the tag is going up next year over 40m, so the next 3 years would actually probably play out pretty similarly in terms of cap #'s.
if jones has a big year that improves his value the nyg will be lucky to have extended him early and if things go the opposite way maybe the opposite will be true. but daboll has coached him for a year now so if he likes jones now i think back to your original question, the only thing that's different is they are in a slightly better negotiating position to get a slightly better deal than they got today but they probably still try to extend him at a similar year 1 #.
Quote:
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
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In comment 16056027 ColHowPepper said:
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In comment 16055764 Eric on Li said:
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add hopkins and the WR group is in a new stratosphere. him and hodgins as starters with presumably shepard on a min deal, wandale back at some point, 1 or 2 rookies, and 1 or 2 vets on VSBs is a complete facelift on last year's group.
Hopkins too costly and saps from other positions of need. And, no, to Shepard, even at vet min, please. Let the draft come to them, JS has maneuverability now.
any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
They won’t be adding high salaries WRs via trade. It’s just not happening.
thanks for clearing that up.
there are a lot of levers they can pull to have room this offseason, and they just pulled a big one by artificially reducing jones salary by 21m less than his AAV and 13m less than the tag amount would have been.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
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In comment 16056051 Eric on Li said:
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any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
I don’t believe they’re going to trade for a WR though, that improvement is coming from the draft
it's possible but FA is so thin at WR this year and Robinson's injury status is a big unknown so it's hard to see them chancing it to the draft if they let james/slayton go elsewhere. id rather spend 20m on an impact player like hopkins than giving either of the other 2 a multi-year deal that will probably get inflated beyond where either of them should be paid because of this year's WR crop.
would i prefer someone younger than hopkins? of course but aiyuk is costing a 1st+. i dont think higgins is getting traded. maybe you can get someone like tyler boyd or tim patrick for a day 3. at the moment hopkins is the only guy we know is actually on the trade market.
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In comment 16056058 section125 said:
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In comment 16056051 Eric on Li said:
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any move depends on the cost and we dont know the hopkins cost. if he's this years amari cooper id be all over it if he's willing to play on his existing deal. its basically totally non-guaranteed so nyg could reduce hit a little if they want and basically consider it a 1 year prove it deal.
Hopkins is $19 mill this year and $15 mill next year - Giants cost if traded for...
all non guaranteed unless they decide to punt some $ to next year via restructure. i know what his deal is and if he were a FA he'd probably command more than that including a pretty big chunk guaranteed.
If you trade for him, you get his contract. You don't trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for a guy and then tell him he is taking a pay cut.
I am sorry if I am not understanding what you are saying. But if you trade for him, you cannot threaten with cutting him to get him to reduce his pay.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
The people here that are distinctly unhappy, are part of the “dump Jones for a bag of donuts” crowd. Impossible to make them happy.
Just stay patient and keep building.
Much like the 2021 Knicks who had a surprise playoff birth, they shouldn’t give away premium assets just to make a move. If Jones and Daboll are worth their salaries they should be able to get 70% of Hopkins production from another guy on the trade market who is cheaper or younger.
restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
semantics but id do the toney pick which is late day 2 or day 3 pick like cooper last year. either of those picks could be daniel bellinger that contributes a lot or like ezeudu/belton/flott is a typical rookie struggles to get off the bench. you are very unlikely to get a deandre hopkins though. in 9 games last year he averaged 80 ypg and put up 10 more receptions than any giant in the full year.
i wouldnt do the 1st or 2nd because those are basically day 1 starters at this point.
getting an impact player on a 2 year deal at a reasonable aav and with 0 guaranteed money is worth something as long as he has the right attitude.
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
This post took courage
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In comment 16056095 Eric on Li said:
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
Have the Giants invested wisely in WR? The past BAD investments in Golladay and Toney are meaningless; sunk costs. Schoen can't say - oh well, we tried. They weren't even his mistakes to begin with.
I agree we need more talent on defense, but there's no way Schoen doesn't draft a WR in rd 1 or 2 and probably add a mid tier FA too.
It’s a good RB draft and there are competent RBs in free agency would would have been fine. And running the ball is more about the line and scheme than the RB.
That being said let’s hope Jones improves. Im certainly rooting for him and the team. He definitely improved this year and that was with a bad OL and poor WRs. Im just risk averse w huge contracts and I’m not sure Jones is worth it. The Giants have been burned too many times recently signing guys to big deals who weren’t worth it because “what was the other option?”.
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In comment 16056126 Eric on Li said:
He’s a terrible use of cap space. Giants can fill two positions with his cap hit.
They can draft a WR who will cost peanuts.
my bad i forgot the rule that once you trade for a WR you can't use a draft pick on another one.
this team is/has possibly said goodbye to 5 of the top 6 receivers on their depth chart entering camp last year and the 6th tore his acl midseason. hodgins is a start but they need to add several players at WR this offseason. at least 2 vets and probably more than 1 rookie as well.
What about the rest of the team? Why are we expending cap space and premium draft assets for declining players? Schoen needs to use his assets wisely and capture premium value across the roster. Trading high picks and devoting massive cap space only works if there’s a home run hitter at WR.
Hopkins isn’t it. Higgins isn’t it. DJ Moore isnt available. There’s no AJ Brown or Davante Adams available this off-season and probably not next year either.
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amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
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Right?
This post took courage
that's one way of putting it
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In comment 16056121 ajr2456 said:
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amari cooper at age 28 went for what pick last year?
like dallas did with cooper i think bidwell already announced hopkins wont be back, he's 31, and a trading team either needs to redo his deal or have a pretty big chunk of free space even if they manipulate some of his base.
maybe teams will learn from the ridiculousness of the cooper deal last year and pay more this year but i dont think there's going to be a huge market for him bc of the challenges above.
It’s possible but I think the lack of free agency options and the high price tag of the other potential WRs on the trade market I think Hopkins market is going to get pushed up. I could see the Bears and Falcons being in the mix, and both have more attractive draft capital than the Giants, even if it only ends up being a third rounder
anything is possible, falcons could be a good fit for hopkins but not sure how enthused he'd be if ridder is the qb. bears not as much since they already gave up the 32nd pick for claypool. im just saying id make the call.
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In comment 16056095 Eric on Li said:
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restructuring him isn't cutting his pay. a team that trades for him takes on his full 19m (nongtd) but standard in all contracts is the teams ability to write the player a bonus check converting base salary into bonus (restructure). if you write deandre hopkins a 10m check converting half of his base salary into a bonus the day you trade for him his cap number goes down by 5m this year (and 5m gets kicked to next year).
So you are just pushing his hit down the road and he will still be 33 y/o in two years and likely gets a two year extension with his restructure. He is still owed $34 mill at the least.
No Eric, I am not for that. If he were 2 years younger, well then.....
he turns 31 in june so you are getting his age 31 and 32. structuring the jones year 1 cap hit the way they did is a way to accommodate a move like hopkins without needing to restructure him at all and could cut him any time if he doesn't perform.
when on the field last year he was very good and in terms of draft capital you arent going to find a better receiver for a lower trade cost. he's not my top choice but he's the only guy definitively on the trade market right now. if you know of a better option im all ears.
Better option? - simple - anyone but a guy that will cost $34 mill next two years and is over 30. And, I do like him as a player a lot. FWIW, had anyone here ever heard of Hodgins before Schoen brought him in? There are other WRs out there better than Hodgins that we have never heard of but Schoen, Daboll and Kafka know about. IIRC, You brought up DJ Moore as an example of Schoen looking into players with big $$s. Moore is 26? Almost the same $$ as Hopkins with an extra year at $14 mill. 5 years younger. This may be doable.
I think Schoen is looking to re-sign his own guys 1st. He said that. He said no splashes in FA - I think this applies to trades with large contracts attached.
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
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Right?
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
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In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
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Right?
There has been no excuses needed for DJ. Time for the rest of the team to step up or step out. If you are saying Super Bowl or bust you are not being realistic.
Jones doesn’t have more stepping up to do?
He most certainly does, big steps.
Super Bowl or bust is every teams goal each year.
Just because you re getting push back doesn’t mean you aren’t correct
If Jones and Barkley are going to win a Super Bowl of course this is their window.
Fair enough, some knew of him, but hardly well known. Yet, still nobody else in the NFL picked him up either time. But then again, you do make my point. There are good WRs out there that can be had for little to nothing.
im taking hopkins remaining 33m all day over spending anything similar on lazard regardless of age. hopkins 9 game numbers last year are basically lazards career year.
If that’s correct and his first year cap hit is 19.1, how does that effect our view of the contract.
It doesn't. In hindsight they should've picked up the option, I think even those that aren't pro Jones would agree. They didn't, doesn't matter.
And also till I see how Jones plays this year. If he regresses, oh my, this place is gonna be fun.
Clearly.
Now, we can fight about why or blame Mara.
Or
We can behind what we finally have.
A core
Jones
Barkley
Thomas
Dex
This
McKinney
Use that and draft and fix some holes.
Get excited.
Also, stupid things you say in this thread could wind up on TV.
Just sayin' they like to.make fun of the trolls in times like these.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
LOL, what? Earlier you were bitching about fans making excuses for jones - specifically calling out the season long complaints about the lack of talent at WR - and now you’re admitting they need a “massive influx of talent”??