On a guy like Lazard if Green Bay decides to completely blow it up when Rodgers leaves. Donovan People’s Jones would be intriguing as well if available.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
"75% of Hopkins from two players" is a lower-tier #2 or upper-tier #3 receiver in Lazard and a #3 receiver in Peoples-Jones
Also, saying that you can only get 75% of a #1 WR's production
I hope Jones takes a big step forward and makes the contract look like a great deal.
I also don't mind debating the merits of decisions or the thinking behind them. It doesn't cause me any grief or misery or whatever. Anything I say people can mock on TV all they want. Not going to change what I think.
And I unfortunately I think we will regret this contract and that was a risk before we planted Jones firmly in the drivers seat on these negotiations. But I most definitely will be happily wrong about that. The playoff wins must continue though, nothing short of that will be a success. No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
Getting 75% of that from two guys is a big improvement. More so if Neal takes a step forward and Saqoun remains healthy.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
Oh and psssst: 75% of Hopkins from TWO players is not the massive influx of talent you think it is.
Now 75% from one player? Given the state of the WR roster last year, definitely. But from two players, that’s basically what they had in slayton and James.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Getting 75% of that from two guys is a big improvement. More so if Neal takes a step forward and Saqoun remains healthy.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
Lazard is at most a bottom tier #2, probably a #3 receiver
And his QBs have been Baker, Brissett and 6 games of Watson. He’s improved every year and was better last year than anyone on the Giants roster. It’s too early in his career to peg him as just a #3.
He’s not as good as Diggs, but their first 3 years have a very similar arc. Diggs career didn’t hit its stride until Minnesota got him better QB play. The Giants can improve the weapons by throwing a bunch of darts at a above average younger wide receivers and hoping one or two break out, instead of putting all their eggs in the Hopkins basket and hoping his not on the downside of his career. It’s more cost effective, while also improving the depth in a position room that hasn’t been able to stay healthy over the years.
and he only makes a couple million this year. what's he costing in trade? he's a better player than claypool and we saw what he cost.
the guys on the chopping block are older or higher paid players like hopkins and sutton. just like cooper last year who ended up being probably one of the best bargains of last offseason. tyler boyd is someone id be interested in since it seems like cincy is going to extend higgins. aiyuk is going to be expensive but id make that call. not sure id give up the first for him but maybe. id check back in on dj moore.
bottom line is UFA sucks but they still need to find better players to replace james/slayton. isaiah mckenzie is another guy id try to grab from buffalo since it seemed like shakur kind of took his spot by the end of the year. schoen mentioned upgrading the return game and hed do that too.
The resources I’d rather take my shot on someone younger. I don’t know if it would take a second to get him, and if it did I don’t know if I would part with it but he also is only 23
McKenzie is another guy I would go after, and I’m sure he’s on Schoen’s radar.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Very disappointed with the Giants if these numbers are accurate. .
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Schoen and Daboll: You habe a QB, you have your RB back and you have cap space and draft capital to go out and fill out this roster. No more excuses about the cap constraints, are you going to hit on every player? absolutely not but you gotta hit on 75%. Roster has some pieces but now is the time to identify the keepers and to add to those..
Jones: You are a 40 million dollar QB, the excuses are done, whether you like Jones or not its put up or shut up time. This isnt a knock on Jones this is how it works, you get paid, the expdctations get elevated. You had a good year this year..guess what? next yesr has to be better, i dont cae who the Giants add, next year has to be better
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
RE: RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
Depends on when the additional $12M in "virtual guarantees" is triggered, but if it is not fully guaranteed before start of the 3rd season then the dead cap hit would be $36M if they let him go after 2024 season.
But based on what we know so far, this feels more like a 'win because of' kind of contract, not a 'win with' contract. Let's hope DJ proves to be that sort of player once we get a few weapons around him.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Thank you kdog. That’s a $48mm cap hit if Jones disappoints and the Giants part ways with him after 2024. Jeez. I sure hope Jones keeps making progress.
(48 = 36 (unamortized signing bonus) + 12 in guarantees in 2024/5)
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
RE: RE: Played around with OTC contract constructor
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
We don't know yet. Maybe they are very unlikely like SB MVP or very likely. If the latter, then this contract is really insane paying him nearly 49M AAV. 4M more than Mahomes.
Yeah, Jones is our QB for the next 3 seasons. Period.
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
kdog on another thread someone said year 2 cap # is 38m
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
I did the same exercise here for a 40M signing bonus
[url]https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&
thread=632835&show_all=1#16056360[/url]
I wanted to retain him but boy does that make me nervous.
This year he was going to be the QB on the tag anyway. If he bombs this year or gets hurt, it’s a bad deal.
But then in 2024 he’s got the big cap hit, so if 2023 is a disaster and the Giants are in position to draft someone they still probably will. That’s 2 years.
It’s not like 3 years is that long. They could have had a stop gap for that entire time. Look at Washington.
I swear sometimes I'm certain people here think it's 1973
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
first off those numbers are pretty similar to what i posted but in 2024 the roster bonus making up the difference would be 100% guaranteed and counted the same as salary so it's irrelevant. remember the number that's been reported is 82m guaranteed and paid in the first 2 years. that's what we need to add up to.
a 48m signing bonus gets acocunted for on the cap as 12m hits each year. so your 2023 would be right (12 +7 = 19).
your year 2 wouldn't get jones to 82m guaranteed though. 20 + 7 + 12 + 12 = 51 (plus the remaining 24m SB to be accounted for in years 3+4 = 75m). so there's still 7m guaranteed$ missing that would have to be paid through your roster bonus which would hit the cap exactly the same as salary making his year 2 cap hit 27m + 12m = 39m.
your last 2 years are also light because that adds up to 70m in salary when there's 78m left on the deal. i think there's a 12m roster bonus in 2025 that likely triggers in 2024 and is maybe currently on guaranteed for injury but we will probably get those details today.
what this exercise shows though (your numbers included) is how even with a substantial signing bonus the cap hits are going to accelerate quickly.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
I did a quick example, I didn't figure out the exact numbers. In my scenario, the Giants will have an escape hatch after year 2 where there would be some cap savings and an escape after year 3 with significant cap savings. It also gives them the ability to extend after year 3 by converting his salary to a SB.
They don’t need to get 100% of Hopkins from one player. They can try to get 75% of Hopkins from two players and it’s still a massive influx of talent.
"75% of Hopkins from two players" is a lower-tier #2 or upper-tier #3 receiver in Lazard and a #3 receiver in Peoples-Jones
I hope Jones takes a big step forward and makes the contract look like a great deal.
I also don't mind debating the merits of decisions or the thinking behind them. It doesn't cause me any grief or misery or whatever. Anything I say people can mock on TV all they want. Not going to change what I think.
And I unfortunately I think we will regret this contract and that was a risk before we planted Jones firmly in the drivers seat on these negotiations. But I most definitely will be happily wrong about that. The playoff wins must continue though, nothing short of that will be a success. No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
Yes they are.
Oh and psssst: 75% of Hopkins from TWO players is not the massive influx of talent you think it is.
Now 75% from one player? Given the state of the WR roster last year, definitely. But from two players, that’s basically what they had in slayton and James.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
They don’t need to try to hit rich this year just because they paid Jones. Giving up potentially a second rounder for a guy who is going to be here one or two years doesn’t make much sense.
Get a guy like Lazard and draft a WR in round 1 or 2. That floor is probably 75% of Hopkins with the upside of it being more productive than just Hopkins. It also gives you more depth in case of injuries.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
You seem to be a very miserable, angry person. Not sure why this opinion has driven you to the point of name calling but whatever floats your boat.
If you can read, I said I’m not talking about stats, just straight talent.
Quote:
In comment 16055347 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 16055304 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Right?
Keep dying on that hill. They ended in the 2022 season but whatever works for you.
They did? Then why do we keep hearing about the WRs?
football is a fucking team sport. Its not an excuse that the team needs better wrs
Of course it is. Ready for me to prove it?
Why didn't DJ throw more than 15 TDs? Quite frankly, that total sucks. What's his excuse?
He’s not as good as Diggs, but their first 3 years have a very similar arc. Diggs career didn’t hit its stride until Minnesota got him better QB play. The Giants can improve the weapons by throwing a bunch of darts at a above average younger wide receivers and hoping one or two break out, instead of putting all their eggs in the Hopkins basket and hoping his not on the downside of his career. It’s more cost effective, while also improving the depth in a position room that hasn’t been able to stay healthy over the years.
the guys on the chopping block are older or higher paid players like hopkins and sutton. just like cooper last year who ended up being probably one of the best bargains of last offseason. tyler boyd is someone id be interested in since it seems like cincy is going to extend higgins. aiyuk is going to be expensive but id make that call. not sure id give up the first for him but maybe. id check back in on dj moore.
bottom line is UFA sucks but they still need to find better players to replace james/slayton. isaiah mckenzie is another guy id try to grab from buffalo since it seemed like shakur kind of took his spot by the end of the year. schoen mentioned upgrading the return game and hed do that too.
McKenzie is another guy I would go after, and I’m sure he’s on Schoen’s radar.
No he doesn't have the right people around him excuses anymore
Yes he does. Right now the wr's suck. Nothing has changed yet in that regard.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Very disappointed with the Giants if these numbers are accurate. .
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
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LOL, now you’re doubling down on your stupidity.
In his best season, he had 1,600 years (actually 1,572 but I’ll be nice a round up) and 11 TD.
So with your fucked up logic, you’re suggesting it would be a “massive influx of talent” for TWO guys to have 1,200 yards and 8 TD’s between them?
Slayton had 724 yards and 2 TD’s, and Ritchie had 569 and 4. So combined, they had 1291 and 6.
How is 75% of Hopkins a massive upgrade from that?!
Geez, the stupidity by some on this site is amazing.
You seem to be a very miserable, angry person. Not sure why this opinion has driven you to the point of name calling but whatever floats your boat.
If you can read, I said I’m not talking about stats, just straight talent.
Yeah, he's basically a poor man's Fatman.
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Now you have to beat the other trucks.
Now you have to beat the other trucks.
Pfft, in baseball it was prove yourself and accept a pay cut...
Schoen and Daboll: You habe a QB, you have your RB back and you have cap space and draft capital to go out and fill out this roster. No more excuses about the cap constraints, are you going to hit on every player? absolutely not but you gotta hit on 75%. Roster has some pieces but now is the time to identify the keepers and to add to those..
Jones: You are a 40 million dollar QB, the excuses are done, whether you like Jones or not its put up or shut up time. This isnt a knock on Jones this is how it works, you get paid, the expdctations get elevated. You had a good year this year..guess what? next yesr has to be better, i dont cae who the Giants add, next year has to be better
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
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If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
I would think the out year is after year three. Would have preferred year two - but that would be difficult.
But I think we will see what they were thinking when the real numbers come out. .McL. had a pretty decent guesstimate farther back in the thread to that I think is closer.
Depends on when the additional $12M in "virtual guarantees" is triggered, but if it is not fully guaranteed before start of the 3rd season then the dead cap hit would be $36M if they let him go after 2024 season.
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This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Thank you kdog. That’s a $48mm cap hit if Jones disappoints and the Giants part ways with him after 2024. Jeez. I sure hope Jones keeps making progress.
(48 = 36 (unamortized signing bonus) + 12 in guarantees in 2024/5)
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
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and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
Quote:
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
Where do the 35M in incentives fall into this equation.... Can they raise the total to 195M? Or are they part of the contract reaching 160M total. That's a fairly big piece of the calculus I would think.
We don't know yet. Maybe they are very unlikely like SB MVP or very likely. If the latter, then this contract is really insane paying him nearly 49M AAV. 4M more than Mahomes.
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In comment 16056435 kdog77 said:
Quote:
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
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In comment 16056512 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 16056435 kdog77 said:
Quote:
and given what we know about the total guarantees and the first year cap number, it seems probable that Jones got a $72M signing bonus and then base salary/roster bonus that looks like this:
2023 = $1,080,000 + $18,000,000 = $19M cap hit
2024 = $9,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $27M cap hit
2025 = $23,000,000 + $18,000,000 + $12,000,000 roster = $53M cap it
2026 = $43,000,000 + $18,000,000 = $61M cap hit
If I am right then Jones got his $40M AAV and the Giants retained flexibility to move on after 2/3 years without completely killing their cap. Would not be surprised if Giants add void year to further reduce his cap number at some point.
If you are correct, if they wanted to move on after year 2, the dead cap hit is $48 million, no? After year 3 $18 million?
The 12M bonus likely get prorated over the last 2...
So yes 48M dead cap after year 2 (pre June 1), and 24M after Year 3 (pre June 1).
I did a similar exercise with a 40M signing bonus in the contract details thread, but yeah the signing bonus can be larger, it just creates much larger cap hits in the last 2 years deferring more.
The dead mony numbers after year 2 are pretty much prohibitive of a year 2 escape. Really the is no escape until after year 3. Even then it will be painful with a large signing bonus.
I am no capologist, but I don't know how the Giants get to $19M cap hit in first year without a big signing bonus.
I did the same exercise here for a 40M signing bonus
[url]https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&
thread=632835&show_all=1#16056360[/url]
Fucking fact.
Make no mistake his goal 2023 is win enough games to get in the tournament.
Then win more games.
I do not give a flying fuck howany TDs he throws next year.
He is accountable for wins.
That is what being paid 40 AAV means.
Fucking win baby.
.
Jones has to produce.
This year he was going to be the QB on the tag anyway. If he bombs this year or gets hurt, it’s a bad deal.
But then in 2024 he’s got the big cap hit, so if 2023 is a disaster and the Giants are in position to draft someone they still probably will. That’s 2 years.
It’s not like 3 years is that long. They could have had a stop gap for that entire time. Look at Washington.
How do teams win at a high level in the NFL today?
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
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and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
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In comment 16056644 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
and a backloaded salary so we have an easy escape hatch at multiple points.
the 19m year 1 means there is a high signing bonus.
there is no other way to get to 82m cash in the first 2 years with just a 19m cap hit year 1.
there is 63m unaccounted for so even if there's 30m in prorated cap hits from a 40m signing bonus, that would mean the year 2 salary is 33m and cap # 43m, so im pretty sure the SB is higher than 40m.
(40m signing bonus + 9m year 1 salary + 33m year 2 salary = 83m).
for comparison here's the math at a 50m signing bonus:
5.5m year 1 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 19m
26.5m year 2 salary + 12.5m bonus hit = 38m
that would leave 78m left paid through non-gtd base salaries/roster bonus in years 3/4 with those 2 years cap hits averaging right around 50 (my guess is year 3 is mid to high 40's and year 4 is mid-50's).
Why can't there be a higher year 1 salary that's gtd? For example:
4/160/48M signing bonus
2023: 7M salary
2024: 20M salary with a roster bonus
2025: 30M salary
2026: 40M salary
first off those numbers are pretty similar to what i posted but in 2024 the roster bonus making up the difference would be 100% guaranteed and counted the same as salary so it's irrelevant. remember the number that's been reported is 82m guaranteed and paid in the first 2 years. that's what we need to add up to.
a 48m signing bonus gets acocunted for on the cap as 12m hits each year. so your 2023 would be right (12 +7 = 19).
your year 2 wouldn't get jones to 82m guaranteed though. 20 + 7 + 12 + 12 = 51 (plus the remaining 24m SB to be accounted for in years 3+4 = 75m). so there's still 7m guaranteed$ missing that would have to be paid through your roster bonus which would hit the cap exactly the same as salary making his year 2 cap hit 27m + 12m = 39m.
your last 2 years are also light because that adds up to 70m in salary when there's 78m left on the deal. i think there's a 12m roster bonus in 2025 that likely triggers in 2024 and is maybe currently on guaranteed for injury but we will probably get those details today.
what this exercise shows though (your numbers included) is how even with a substantial signing bonus the cap hits are going to accelerate quickly.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.