Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
I did a quick example, I didn't figure out the exact numbers. In my scenario, the Giants will have an escape hatch after year 2 where there would be some cap savings and an escape after year 3 with significant cap savings. It also gives them the ability to extend after year 3 by converting his salary to a SB.
i dont think there's going to be an escape hatch until year 3 and i dont think it's going to be all that appealing.
in year 2 if they have only accounted for 19m of 82m guaranteed, then the dead money risk is at least 63m. his base that year is likely to be in the 20's or 30's, so to move on from jones next year will probably cost the NYG an extra 30-40m (which is that 75% remainder of the signing bonus not yet accounted for).
RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I was really concerned about whether there would be a favorable out after year 2, but after reflection, things would have to go really bad to get to that scenario so it's almost irrelevant. If Jones plays poor the next two years and the team doesn't make the playoffs, the entire Daboll/Schoen regime would be in serious trouble.
RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
This was a large part of the reason I was soooo confident this deal would get done at the deadline and that the Giants would blink. They wanted room in 2023.
Their words and actions CLEARY show the team BELIEVES they can win hardware with Jones.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
oh please. Can we all play? The pro DJ group conflates team results with Jones' "improvement" and refuses to recognize that DJ wasn't very good the last two years and last season statistically wasn't all that much different than his year 2. They also fail to see one huge advantage DJ was given- he had a 4 year scholarship, now running another 3 anyway, without any challenge to his position as starter despite the last two years.
But no matter, he's here and Daboll and Schoen have hitched their jobs to the DJ-Barkley combo wagon. Let's hope it all works out.
RE: RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
JFC, if they haven't figured that out yet, they are not long for their jobs.
Gene, I think that they do have questions as to how good he can be
That's why they didn't want to go longer than 4 years, and seemed to have structured the deal such that they can replace him fairly easily in a few years. I think they like him, believe he's their best option right now, but aren't necessarily sold on him for the long haul.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
RE: Gene, I think that they do have questions as to how good he can be
That's why they didn't want to go longer than 4 years, and seemed to have structured the deal such that they can replace him fairly easily in a few years. I think they like him, believe he's their best option right now, but aren't necessarily sold on him for the long haul.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
RE: RE: RE: Eric, your astute slice & dice of significance of $ appreciated by all
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
that or there's a veteran on a big 1 year deal they like as low risk short term bandaid (like hopkins) as they get robinson healthy and look to draft more skill talent.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
just commented on the other thread but this is really interesting
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
i think the strategy here is to restructure year to year as they need to as opposed to carrying the dead money risk if traded/cut ahead of time.
very interesting and i dont think ive seen a deal structured this way before where there's such a rapid acceleration above the AAV in year 2.
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Here's the thing, IMO - the WR excuse cuts both ways.
You don't know, for example, if KC's WRs are independently better than NYG's because you don't know how much better Mahomes makes them compared to DJ with his own receivers.
I know that when Eli was here, not a single one of his WRs throughout his entire career ever had a better run with any other QB than they had with Eli. So that tells me that Eli elevated their level of play. With DJ, we can't even necessarily say for sure whether any of the WRs he's played with would even make some other teams' rosters, so it's fair to note that as a limitation that DJ has faced, but you also can't say with any certainty exactly how good his WRs would need to be in order for him to flourish.
Does he need two bona fide stud WRs like Hill and Waddle, the way Tua did? Or like Metcalf and Lockett who were a huge part of Geno's late-blossoming career year? Or could he get by with one elite receiving weapon and a bunch of other pretty good receivers (slightly above JAG but not drastically) the way that Mahomes did this past year with Kelce and a handful of interchangeable journeymen at WR, or the way that Josh Allen has with Diggs as his alpha WR1 and then Gabe Davis and others cleaning up in favorable situations due to the attention Diggs commands?
If it's the former (surrounded by excellent receivers), it's going to be challenging and expensive to acquire those receivers, which could in turn mean that DJ's contract may not end up as a great value, if we end up having to spend as much in picks and dollars as an elite QB would cost while also having to pay DJ his money on top of that. If it's the latter (one elite stud, several complementary pieces), not only is the path to improvement significantly easier to navigate, but it also leaves open a much stronger possibility of DJ's new contract representing a potential bargain.
Personally, I don't love this contract, and it has nothing to do with being stubbornly attached to years of criticizing DJ's play. What I don't like about the contract is specifically that it feels half-pregnant to me, and that's a concern I've voiced for months. And as a NY sports fan in general, it's crazy to me to think about DJ making more money per season during this contract than Aaron Judge will make. Different sports, different ages, different levels of guarantee, I get it. But only one of those guys is a legit superstar, and it ain't the one making $40M a year.
I would have be thrilled with a cheaper AAV, obviously. And I would have been very happy to give DJ an even higher AAV and more guarantees a year from now with another good season on the books after making him play 2023 on the tag. What I don't love is being in the middle of those two scenarios. We aren't saving THAT much compared to the next tier of QB salaries above DJ that it gives us any sort of favorable cap advantage for this year (unless the contract is structured in such a way that the implied AAV in cap numbers really jumps for 2024-26), and I'd have rather seen DJ force his way into that next group up and then pay the piper for what would then be, IMO, a proven elite QB.
Obviously that wasn't the way Schoen and Daboll viewed it, and I'm satisfied to continue rooting for DJ and the Giants knowing that the front office braintrust knows more than I do. As it is, I'm excited that DJ already proved enough to earn this contract in the first place, even if I would have tagged him instead - no one but the biggest pollyannas on here would have predicted a nine-figure contract for DJ a year ago. Now let's see what the Giants do next. If they can't get him the receiving help he needs, this contract is going to be a very expensive way to finish in the middle of the league on offense and pray for 9-10 wins per season for the next few years. But if they do get DJ the tools he needs and he takes off, we're in great shape. Nothing to do now but root and wait.
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
That seems better than early reports. If he shits the bed, he can be unloaded for an $18 million cap hit plus whatever portion of 2025 was guaranteed a the end of year 2 and a $9 million dead cap hit for year 4.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
I think you're missing the point. I can only speak for myself here, but I'll go ahead and concede every one of those excuses for you. And I don't even disagree about the general ranking of top 10-15 in the league. Maybe I'd put DJ closer to 15 and you'd put him closer to 10, whatever.
The point, though, is that I generally think it's foolish to get attached (and financially committed) to any player at any position who is just basically around the middle third of the league's starters at that position. I have said it all along (and allude to it in my longer post above): I'd rather pay through the nose for the absolute elite, or go cheap (or at least painless to separate very quickly) for anything below that. There's only three tiers of players in the NFL, IMO: 1) elite, 2) interchangeable, 3) wasting a roster spot. I wouldn't feel great about spending truly big bucks on any player who doesn't fall into the first group, regardless of their position on the field.
That's not the way JS/BD viewed it. Such is life. It's their jobs on the line, not mine. I can trust them to make the right decision and simultaneously acknowledge that it's not the decision I'd have made with the limited information I have available to me.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
I think so, yes. My hunch is that this signing was equal parts them liking Jones and not seeing a preferable alternative. I don't think the playoffs swung their thinking terribly much, although seeing him play well on the road in the playoffs almost certainly didn't hurt either.
details out from PFT - year 2 cap # looks like 44.5m
but i think they expect to convert that to bonus via restructure as necessary (so it's almost like a 2 tier signing bonus). Inside the Daniel Jones deal - ( New Window )
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
I mean it is really simple... if this was a 3 year/127 million dollar contract that would mean his 4th year salary would only be 33million base salary... No way that is the case. No need to freak out.
Agent puts out 82 million over the first two years because he is including the signing bonuses in there which is paid up front.
Most like it is a 50ish million signing bonus which spread over the contract for salary cap purposes. So call it 12.5 million a year spread out over the cost of the contract for signing bonus.
Year one 7Million base + 12.5 Million 19.5 Million cap hit Fully Guaranteed.
Year two 30 million base + 12.5 Million 42.5 Million cap hit fully Guaranteed
Year three 30 million base + 12.5 million 42.5 cap hit
Year four 43 million base + 12.5 Million 55.5 million cap hit
This is just another example of how you can have 82 million over the first two years guaranteed (because the agent is including the signing bonus as part of that) and this would be 3/117... you can work the numbers even more to get it lower. My point being no way his is base salary going to be 33 million in year 4 which is what you have. So yes your math is probably wrong. Let's just wait until we see the numbers and not go by what an agent wants people to think he got his client.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Emphasis mine, inaccuracy yours.
These numbers aren’t “they wanted him badly” numbers. They’re “we think he’s a little better than Geno Smith” numbers.
they’d still try to pay him like Geno due to his 2019-2021 seasons. The Giants really wanted him (otherwise he would have been transition tagged), and also didn’t want to or feel he deserved get top QB pay.
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I don't take issue with that statement at all. He was pretty determined to win the Indy and Minny playoff game. He had some 4th quarter comebacks, and it wasn't like he had a great surrounding cast minus AT and Saquon for most of the year. That's a whole lot different than "he's elite" or some of the other things you have there. I am probably as big a Jones supporter as there is on BBI, and I don't think he's elite or near Mahomes level, and I haven't seen it written. Although I do disappear from those thousand page DJ debate threads with a migraine after 4 or 5 pages... lol
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Ok Mr. Detractor and ridiculous OP. Simple question.
Why does Jones deserve more money than Geno Smith? Geno went to the pro bowl this year. They are both had only one season anything even remotely of note. Why does Jones deserve a fair amount more?
Age isn't really relevant because Geno is on a shorter deal that is easy to get out of faster and he really isn't that old.
He had a nice year, after being a journeyman for 7+ years. And good for him, he deserves the $105M dollar deal he was able to garner.
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.
i dont think there's going to be an escape hatch until year 3 and i dont think it's going to be all that appealing.
in year 2 if they have only accounted for 19m of 82m guaranteed, then the dead money risk is at least 63m. his base that year is likely to be in the 20's or 30's, so to move on from jones next year will probably cost the NYG an extra 30-40m (which is that 75% remainder of the signing bonus not yet accounted for).
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
2023 = 8% (19m / 229m)
2024 = 15% (38m / 256m)
2025 = 17% (48m / 282m)
2026 = 18% (55m / 308m)
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Quote:
Care to take a crack at what % of Giants' cap those Year 2 - 4 hits might account for, against the all too speculative NFL team cap $$ numbers going forward?
sure (these cap #'s are guesses but i think they will be close):
2023 = 8% (19m / 229m)
2024 = 15% (38m / 256m)
2025 = 17% (48m / 282m)
2026 = 18% (55m / 308m)
i think they expect to renegotiate during year 3 if things go well (and obviously dump the 4th year if they go poorly) but im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
Their words and actions CLEARY show the team BELIEVES they can win hardware with Jones.
Now, go do it.
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
But no matter, he's here and Daboll and Schoen have hitched their jobs to the DJ-Barkley combo wagon. Let's hope it all works out.
Quote:
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
Do you think the Giants re-sign him if they missed the playoffs?
Quote:
im surprised they lowered the first year as much as they did. i think that means we are going to see an active month.
I think they want to learn quickly how good Jones is going to be with better players around him on offense. They want to maximize the overall talent on offense which should demonstrate rather definitively in 2023 if Jones can elevate his game enough to be a title-capable QB.
that or there's a veteran on a big 1 year deal they like as low risk short term bandaid (like hopkins) as they get robinson healthy and look to draft more skill talent.
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
@DDuggan21
·
10m
Replying to
@DDuggan21
Still some gaps, but assuming the $82M guaranteed over two years reports are accurate, there’s going to be a monster cap hit in 2024 (back of napkin math in the $45.5M range).
i think the strategy here is to restructure year to year as they need to as opposed to carrying the dead money risk if traded/cut ahead of time.
very interesting and i dont think ive seen a deal structured this way before where there's such a rapid acceleration above the AAV in year 2.
Quote:
Jones now has to step up regardless of the circumstances around him and the Giants also need to improve the WR Corp. Both are true independent of themselves.
And I’m not talking about stats, I’m talking about talent. Slayton and James combined aren’t 75% of the player Hopkins is.
Hard for jones to step up with shit at WR
I mean show me a guy who succeeds with those bums at wr?
Here's the thing, IMO - the WR excuse cuts both ways.
You don't know, for example, if KC's WRs are independently better than NYG's because you don't know how much better Mahomes makes them compared to DJ with his own receivers.
I know that when Eli was here, not a single one of his WRs throughout his entire career ever had a better run with any other QB than they had with Eli. So that tells me that Eli elevated their level of play. With DJ, we can't even necessarily say for sure whether any of the WRs he's played with would even make some other teams' rosters, so it's fair to note that as a limitation that DJ has faced, but you also can't say with any certainty exactly how good his WRs would need to be in order for him to flourish.
Does he need two bona fide stud WRs like Hill and Waddle, the way Tua did? Or like Metcalf and Lockett who were a huge part of Geno's late-blossoming career year? Or could he get by with one elite receiving weapon and a bunch of other pretty good receivers (slightly above JAG but not drastically) the way that Mahomes did this past year with Kelce and a handful of interchangeable journeymen at WR, or the way that Josh Allen has with Diggs as his alpha WR1 and then Gabe Davis and others cleaning up in favorable situations due to the attention Diggs commands?
If it's the former (surrounded by excellent receivers), it's going to be challenging and expensive to acquire those receivers, which could in turn mean that DJ's contract may not end up as a great value, if we end up having to spend as much in picks and dollars as an elite QB would cost while also having to pay DJ his money on top of that. If it's the latter (one elite stud, several complementary pieces), not only is the path to improvement significantly easier to navigate, but it also leaves open a much stronger possibility of DJ's new contract representing a potential bargain.
Personally, I don't love this contract, and it has nothing to do with being stubbornly attached to years of criticizing DJ's play. What I don't like about the contract is specifically that it feels half-pregnant to me, and that's a concern I've voiced for months. And as a NY sports fan in general, it's crazy to me to think about DJ making more money per season during this contract than Aaron Judge will make. Different sports, different ages, different levels of guarantee, I get it. But only one of those guys is a legit superstar, and it ain't the one making $40M a year.
I would have be thrilled with a cheaper AAV, obviously. And I would have been very happy to give DJ an even higher AAV and more guarantees a year from now with another good season on the books after making him play 2023 on the tag. What I don't love is being in the middle of those two scenarios. We aren't saving THAT much compared to the next tier of QB salaries above DJ that it gives us any sort of favorable cap advantage for this year (unless the contract is structured in such a way that the implied AAV in cap numbers really jumps for 2024-26), and I'd have rather seen DJ force his way into that next group up and then pay the piper for what would then be, IMO, a proven elite QB.
Obviously that wasn't the way Schoen and Daboll viewed it, and I'm satisfied to continue rooting for DJ and the Giants knowing that the front office braintrust knows more than I do. As it is, I'm excited that DJ already proved enough to earn this contract in the first place, even if I would have tagged him instead - no one but the biggest pollyannas on here would have predicted a nine-figure contract for DJ a year ago. Now let's see what the Giants do next. If they can't get him the receiving help he needs, this contract is going to be a very expensive way to finish in the middle of the league on offense and pray for 9-10 wins per season for the next few years. But if they do get DJ the tools he needs and he takes off, we're in great shape. Nothing to do now but root and wait.
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
Link - ( New Window )
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
2023: 9.5 + 9 = 18.5 cap hit(fully gtd)
2024: 30.5 + 9 = 39.5M cap hit(fully gtd)
2025: 38 + 9 = 47M cap hit(partially gtd)
2026: 46 + 9 = 55M cap hit
I think you're missing the point. I can only speak for myself here, but I'll go ahead and concede every one of those excuses for you. And I don't even disagree about the general ranking of top 10-15 in the league. Maybe I'd put DJ closer to 15 and you'd put him closer to 10, whatever.
The point, though, is that I generally think it's foolish to get attached (and financially committed) to any player at any position who is just basically around the middle third of the league's starters at that position. I have said it all along (and allude to it in my longer post above): I'd rather pay through the nose for the absolute elite, or go cheap (or at least painless to separate very quickly) for anything below that. There's only three tiers of players in the NFL, IMO: 1) elite, 2) interchangeable, 3) wasting a roster spot. I wouldn't feel great about spending truly big bucks on any player who doesn't fall into the first group, regardless of their position on the field.
That's not the way JS/BD viewed it. Such is life. It's their jobs on the line, not mine. I can trust them to make the right decision and simultaneously acknowledge that it's not the decision I'd have made with the limited information I have available to me.
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
I think so, yes. My hunch is that this signing was equal parts them liking Jones and not seeing a preferable alternative. I don't think the playoffs swung their thinking terribly much, although seeing him play well on the road in the playoffs almost certainly didn't hurt either.
Inside the Daniel Jones deal - ( New Window )
Quote:
He didn't leave much on the table did he?
Cap is going up 50% in the next few years...he knew he could get his $40M #
No. Whatever he paid the agents was worth every penny, and I wonder of Schoen was able to sit down at the press conference.
tell that to Lamarr Jackson...lol
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
Quote:
In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Your math is wrong
Ok, Mr. Genius. No explanation, just that I am wrong!
How is my math wrong?
Do you even have a clue?
Let me help you. It is possible that what is being reported about the contract is wrong. However, we have been told he gets 82M gtd in the first 2 years, and a virtual guarantee of 94M. The virtual guarantee obviously equates to additional bonus that kicks in some time in the first 2 years but is paid in the last 2. So 160 - 94 = 66. That is how much salary he gets in the last 2 years. Split that 33 and 33. Means that he gets 160 - 33 or 127M. No the split of the last 66 may be different maybe it is 30, 36, which would make it 3/124. However, it is in the ballpark.
So Mr. Genius math, have you invented some new calculus and can prove that wrong, or are you just being a <bleep>?
I mean it is really simple... if this was a 3 year/127 million dollar contract that would mean his 4th year salary would only be 33million base salary... No way that is the case. No need to freak out.
Agent puts out 82 million over the first two years because he is including the signing bonuses in there which is paid up front.
Most like it is a 50ish million signing bonus which spread over the contract for salary cap purposes. So call it 12.5 million a year spread out over the cost of the contract for signing bonus.
Year one 7Million base + 12.5 Million 19.5 Million cap hit Fully Guaranteed.
Year two 30 million base + 12.5 Million 42.5 Million cap hit fully Guaranteed
Year three 30 million base + 12.5 million 42.5 cap hit
Year four 43 million base + 12.5 Million 55.5 million cap hit
This is just another example of how you can have 82 million over the first two years guaranteed (because the agent is including the signing bonus as part of that) and this would be 3/117... you can work the numbers even more to get it lower. My point being no way his is base salary going to be 33 million in year 4 which is what you have. So yes your math is probably wrong. Let's just wait until we see the numbers and not go by what an agent wants people to think he got his client.
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Quote:
In comment 16056888 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
Quote:
In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I'll add to this one, at least vaguely (to avoid a direct callout), because the Mahomes is *probably* better than DJ is one of my favorites, too. That gem was provided by a poster from up north that some actually try to trot out as an expert opinion on here.
Thank you Gatorade.
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
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In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
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In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
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This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
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In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
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In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
I never saw that..DJ had some elite games, but very few if any, called him Elite or Great.
I said he was top 10-15. I said he was a good QB with a solid year under Daboll..I think most DJ “get-go” supporters said that..
He’s not elite
You are correct. There were very few that called him elite but there were a few. That was the point, there were a few. It was in response to the original poster's assertion that there are no DJ fans posting unreasonable comments. Most posters on both sides of the debate are reasonable.
I don't believe I ever saw anyone call Jones great. However there was one over the top pro Jones comment about him showing his greatness this season or he has shown Dabol and Schoen his greatness.
Gotcha
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In comment 16056825 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16056418 .McL. said:
Quote:
This contract breaks down to 3/127M.
Carr's is essentially 3/100M
Smith is essentially 3/75
Based on their body of work, I find it extremely hard to rationalize that Jones has that much more value than those guys.
I've come around to the opinion that the Giants overpaid. What is worse, is that he gets incentives that can take it higher. Don't know how achievable they are.
Pure conjecture on my part, but, it seems like the Giants panicked that they might lose Barkley and wanted to tag him, so they caved to Jones.
Exactly. Jones had all the leverage and the Giants blinked. Think how easy it was for Jones to play hardball with NYG because of a 32.4m dollar tag. Not hard to see coming.
Better to have stayed the course, tag Jones, and continue to negotiate from strength.
Of course that means letting Barkley walk. I am good with that.
No, I am glad the Giants are smarter than that. Deadlines and leverage. If they tagged him at what time would Jones leverage increase? Jones could have held them hostage during the whole FA period. Never mind that if they believed he could win the hardware, and wanted to make him the face of the franchise, hardball, was never really an option for NYG.
There was no position of strength for NYG because they wanted him. Badly. The numbers say so.
Emphasis mine, inaccuracy yours.
These numbers aren’t “they wanted him badly” numbers. They’re “we think he’s a little better than Geno Smith” numbers.
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In comment 16056884 BlueVinnie said:
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In comment 16056720 NYG22 said:
Quote:
Usually, with debates, especially that involve a lot of people, the opinions get highly polarized and severe.
However, I don't find that in this case, at least on the Pro-DJ side. This side generally consists of people who think he is now and will continue to be a 10-15th QB in the league with hopes that added weapons may allow ascension beyond that. They recognize his improvement with accuracy, footwork, pocket navigation to go along with high end athletic traits. But, to be clear, you don't hear DJ fans being unreasonable and assessing him at a top tier caliber.
But, oddly, on the other side - the anti-DJ camp, it is often fairly severe. This side rarely concedes the facts that: the OL was the worst in the NFL for his first 3 years, he has never had even an average WR let alone a WR corps that Dak, Hurts, Cousins, Rodgers, Kyler, Burrow --to name a few, have enjoyed and the fact that his growth was stunted due to the Judge/Garrett debacle. They also didn't warm to his obvious improvement last year, even yet still without decent receivers.
Really?!
I've read on this board that;
Jones is elite
Jones is near elite
Jones is a Top 10 QB
Jones has shown his greatness
Jones "willed" this team to victory all year
and of course my favorite; Mahomes is *PROBABLY* better than Jones
and there are many more.
There are delusional folks on both sides of the debate.
What a crock. Show me examples of any of what you just posted. I have seen some argue top 10 but frankly that's just an opinion, and not really a stretch to argue. I have not seen any of the other things you have posted there posted by anybody.
I'll play...
Click on the "The blood on the hands of the meddlesome Mara's" thread and search for the word "willed".
Eveything I posted has been stated on various threads.
I don't take issue with that statement at all. He was pretty determined to win the Indy and Minny playoff game. He had some 4th quarter comebacks, and it wasn't like he had a great surrounding cast minus AT and Saquon for most of the year. That's a whole lot different than "he's elite" or some of the other things you have there. I am probably as big a Jones supporter as there is on BBI, and I don't think he's elite or near Mahomes level, and I haven't seen it written. Although I do disappear from those thousand page DJ debate threads with a migraine after 4 or 5 pages... lol
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
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It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
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In comment 16057555 ajr2456 said:
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It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Tell them to get an actual weapon when ... you mentioned his actual weapon. Barkley chopped liver or something?
Yep. And Barkley's killer 2022 games get erased. Those never happened. MIB pen on BBI?
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In comment 16057570 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16057555 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
It was because the whole team shit the bed. But in games where the whole team plays well, he willed them to a victory?
Where do you come up with this shit? Yes, the whole team shit tge bed against Philly and Dallas-TWICE..And no, he doesn’t will the Giants to victory
It’s literally two posts above
Come on dude. He doesn't specifically say DJ willed the Giants to a post season in EVERY victory. And it's in response to a dumb fucking OP about "Blood on the hands of the meddlesome Maras" from one of DJs biggest detractors - shockingly enough. Geezus. Make it stop please. We KNOW you hate the guy. But Schoen and Daboll clearly do not. They signed the guy because they think he is a good QB with a higher ceiling, with a team that has a TON - A TON - of room to get better. Not because Mara has "blood" on his fucking hands.
Oy vey.
Ok Mr. Detractor and ridiculous OP. Simple question.
Why does Jones deserve more money than Geno Smith? Geno went to the pro bowl this year. They are both had only one season anything even remotely of note. Why does Jones deserve a fair amount more?
Age isn't really relevant because Geno is on a shorter deal that is easy to get out of faster and he really isn't that old.
So what is it then?
Carr, Smith, and Jones are all being paid what the CURRENT MARKET dictates and based on their situations.
I know you guys really wanted Schoen and Daboll to hate the QB as much as you do, but clearly, they do NOT. These guys specifically Schoen and Daboll... AND - Jones - have earned their stripes this year. I would have been comfortable if they decided to move on from DJ, but I'm happy they clearly like him and want to continue building around him.
And now? I root for the team to improve. The whole team. Including DJ. And I'm looking forward to this offseason, the draft, FA, and ultimately seeing how this team rolls next season.