The Contract situation may have been a compromise with Jones, but the result was pretty close to the best possible outcome for the Giants right now.
It might have been better if it was a 5 year contract instead of a 4 year contract for the Giants, but despite the opening salvos this was always looking like a $40 million/year deal. with 2 and a half years guaranteed. With 5 years, year two cap flexibility would have been a little greater, and year 3 dead money a little less, but at first blush, the year two hit is likely to be less than what it would have been if Jones was franchised a second time; and the year three exit is not as bad, as to make it untenable if the Giants want to change direction, and certainly the exit in year 4 is probably very palatable, based on the opening numbers that are guaranteed.
With Jones and Barkley now returning, at cap flexible numbers this year and next, the team is more likely to continue to ascend, assuming that the FO can add a few more key pieces in the coming year.
Changing the QB this year looked fraught with issues. The used cars there were not an improvement, and the incoming class would have been far more expensive and with a limited number of choices. No, I can see no better QB situation for the Giants right now than Jones returning on a team friendly deal.
The reasons for this should be obvious - but last year the team ascended with Jones at the helm, and now this can be built upon; and like it or not, Jones's key weapon all year besides himself was Saquon Barkley, who is/will be returning for reasonable money for a key weapon. It's similar to Black jack, but when your opening two cards are 10s you don't ask for new cards, and I'm going to assert that based on last year's performances - Jones's and Barkley's overall production was pretty solid and the team overall improved and had better results than any Giants team has had in the prior six years.
Eric has stated more than once that Jones and Barkley's fates were/are twined together and that they are a package deal -- and I think Eric was very astute about this.
Now the only argument I can see someone making is that this deal is not a team friendly deal, but I believe that it is a team friendly deal as it provides flexibility in years one and two and an exit tha tis somewhat painful in year three - and not at all in year 4. You can argue that this deal is no good if either one of them or both of them get(s) injured in the next two years, but you can not argue that this package does not preserve the status quo of the Giants being a team in assent.
Now it is incumbent on the front office to get the key pieces this team needs to have a further assent, but they appear to be set up so they can, and right now the pressure is squarely where it needs to be. The pressure is on Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll to further build this team into a winner in the NFCE. The pressure is on Jones and Barkley to prove they can be guys, and if they are not I think you will find that the exit strategy is reasonably built into the new Jones contract after two years, with the third year being a half life.
This is not a bad outcome in my opinion.
interesting
The Giants are clearly looking at maximizing their time now and say prove us right. If he doesn't develop the way they expect with added resources then they have an out in 3 years or even after two.
I do think we go after some weapons here.
Not sure I buy that. Consider your main point, we have a horrible WR room overall. Upgrading that position seems like we should be able to do so with Schoen and Daboll in lockstep together.
Is $40m a year too much? Of course. No professional athlete is worth that but the market is what it is. Glad this is over With.
Do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year? The way I see it any team would want to secure the rights of all players for as long as they can, provided the costs were zero. And with contracts being not guaranteed, the costs can be zero. It's only the agents/players who want more guarantees with longer contracts, right?
So again, do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year?
Barkley is the one who is hurt the most because he is worth more than the tag and can be tagged again hopefully he gets a deal from the Giants at a price less than what he was asking for and we can move on. The offense revolves around him.
We are moving in the right direction.
Does that answer change if the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing (or below)?
Someone posted yesterday all the QBs Daboll has coached in his 20+ years. Some greats and some mediocres. I think the man fully understands QB play and can evaluate QBs. Think of what Schoen and Daboll did to Jones. Basically told him(by not doing the 5th year option) we do not believe you are worthy of a 5th year with the Giants - now go out and show us that you are worthy. They made him play for his football life/career. Not a bad way to see if he can perform under pressure.
I also believe that Barkley's roll will evolve this season. I think they find a banger in the draft and limit Barkley's touches to keep him fresher. Clearly the Houston game took serious tread off the tires.
Schoen and Daboll have a plan on how they will build the Giants. They got their QB, now they will build a team that gives Jones the best players for his attributes.
The cap will be going up and we should probably expect extensions for Dex this year, AT next year and McKinney as well.
The only thing this offense needs is a deep threat which I believe we can find in round 1 or 2 and I feel they will cluster draft the position since we will have 11 picks. Think Hyatt in round 1 with AT Perry in round 3 or 4.
The contracts will always be huge for the QB position, especially a young ascending player like Jones.
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That has to be fixed. How I have no idea but no team can have sustained success with any unit being the worst in the league much less WR in a passing league. Huge issue for Schoen. Love what he’s done so far. But it gets harder not easier.
Not sure I buy that. Consider your main point, we have a horrible WR room overall. Upgrading that position seems like we should be able to do so with Schoen and Daboll in lockstep together.
Our best WR is a #3/4 level player. Love him but that’s what he is. We need a #1 and a #2. FA are for those spots are exorbitantly expensive and this year virtually non existent. So, you draft one say at 25 but he’s a rookie and even the better ones aren’t plug and play. Take another even in the second and now you’ve got two rookies trying to be your best two WR. Does that fix the problem. Maybe, maybe not. Schoen and Daboll may be in lockstep but that doesn’t change that realty.
If for some reason, the team regresses next year (very possible), you try to fix it, not move on from a QB you made the commitment on. This contact is pretty good for both sides. There is no hindsight to judge this contact on today.
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The Giants didn’t want a 5th year
Do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year? The way I see it any team would want to secure the rights of all players for as long as they can, provided the costs were zero. And with contracts being not guaranteed, the costs can be zero. It's only the agents/players who want more guarantees with longer contracts, right?
So again, do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year?
From what I understand getting a fifth year with no guarantees in it would have meant more guarantees earlier in the contract, likely having to guarantee the third year fully which they were a firm no on from the jump.
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The Giants didn’t want a 5th year
The Giants are clearly looking at maximizing their time now and say prove us right. If he doesn't develop the way they expect with added resources then they have an out in 3 years or even after two.
I do think we go after some weapons here.
I agree. I think Schoen has built in the ability to draft a QB if this doesn’t work out.
2. barkley tag - tagging him for basically the = of what engram got off a terrible year last offseason was always a no brainer. the rb position is depressed in value and he's their only good skill player. i dont think there'd be much savings on an extension, but i expect they will reach one before camp bc it would be wise for barkley to grab every guaranteed$ he can now.
for the nyg locking these 2 into their cap structure before extending dex + at gives them cost certainty and 2 players they know can help them compete against most teams.
they are now firmly on the hunt for those 1-2-3 impact players who can put the roster over the top like ajb, reddick, and bradberry did in phi last year. exciting time and should be a fun offseason.
FA?
Wandale
Hodgins
Collin Johnson
Slayton?
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In comment 16056594 ajr2456 said:
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The Giants didn’t want a 5th year
Do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year? The way I see it any team would want to secure the rights of all players for as long as they can, provided the costs were zero. And with contracts being not guaranteed, the costs can be zero. It's only the agents/players who want more guarantees with longer contracts, right?
So again, do you mean they didn't like the price of the fifth year?
From what I understand getting a fifth year with no guarantees in it would have meant more guarantees earlier in the contract, likely having to guarantee the third year fully which they were a firm no on from the jump.
Thanks - I know it's a bit of semantics but I always think the issue isn't the length of the contract for the team, it's the price of the guarantees, and for the player it's the opposite.
Of course it seems backward to most fans because they know teams don't like guarantees and they falsely equate guaranteed dollars with years under contract.
If the Giants could have secured DJ's rights at today's prices for 10 years without another dime in guarantees I'm pretty sure they'd jump on that, since there is no real risk but only upside for them on a deal like that. Even in a deflationary situation being locked into a contract when the cap is reduced would mean nothing if the contract was not guaranteed - they could just cut the player.
We could do nothing but use the two sixth round picks and we'd probably upgrade the WR position.
This is a favorable contract for Jones regardless and the Giants left the tag in the chamber. They kind of blinked here. I get why they did it - 2023 cap flexibility and Barkley. Obviously faith in Jones as well. That tells me they will be much more aggressive than many of us speculated this offseason too. Would not be shocked if they signed OBJ or made a splashy trade for a WR. Why would you prioritize your 26 yr old RB and early cap flexibility if you weren't going to make some kind of push? They kind of went all-in on Jones here, so it would be surprising if they didn't do everything they could to surround him with talent.
1. Jones has had two straight subpar years and the Giants have failed to make the playoffs.
In this scenario, Daboll would be in some serious trouble and Schoen not far behind. Even if the dead cap hit is manageable, they are looking at bringing in a rookie or a stopgap vet (a quality vet would likely be too costly). Daboll would be entering a hot-seat year without a settled QB, which leads me to believe they will get late-round flyer QB pick in the next few years to hedge their bets for this scenario.
2. Jones has played subpar but the team has been competitive due to a strong defense and running game
This is the Goff/Stafford scenario. I could probably see the Giants still sticking with Jones but bringing in serious affordable competition - either rookie or vet. I doubt they do the Rams-type move.
Basically, although I'm hoping for a friendly dead-cap number of year 2 it's basically phryic victory because if Jones underperforms and the team fails, the entire regime is in dire straights. Let's just hope it all works out.
Honestly nowhere to but up. We have Hodgins and Robinson. Sign a vet WR and draft one high. I'd draft 2 WRs this year in the first 2 days.
This is a favorable contract for Jones regardless and the Giants left the tag in the chamber. They kind of blinked here. I get why they did it - 2023 cap flexibility and Barkley. Obviously faith in Jones as well. That tells me they will be much more aggressive than many of us speculated this offseason too. Would not be shocked if they signed OBJ or made a splashy trade for a WR. Why would you prioritize your 26 yr old RB and early cap flexibility if you weren't going to make some kind of push? They kind of went all-in on Jones here, so it would be surprising if they didn't do everything they could to surround him with talent.
I ardently disagree. A loss would have been if they had to tag Jones. Everyone would have lost in that scenario because they would have gone forward with a much smaller window and chance of making improvements and therefore having success.
Correct me if I'm wrong ajr, but isn't it a bit of a wash? Because by year 3, certainly by year 4, Giants will know which way they need to go with Jones: either extend and re-calibrate the cap hit or cut bait. In other words, it's about optionality.
Does that answer change if the dealer has a 5 or 6 showing (or below)?
The only time you split 10's is if you are playing in a tournament where the most money wins in lets say 7 hands. Then you split with the dealer showing a 5 or a 6. Otherwise, never.
yes -- but if he's on the tag the window of resigning Barkley went smaller because he wouldn't have been tagged
Jones and Barkley showed they are optimally a package deal
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That has to be fixed. How I have no idea but no team can have sustained success with any unit being the worst in the league much less WR in a passing league. Huge issue for Schoen. Love what he’s done so far. But it gets harder not easier.
Honestly nowhere to but up. We have Hodgins and Robinson. Sign a vet WR and draft one high. I'd draft 2 WRs this year in the first 2 days.
We don’t have Robinson. He was injured half way through the season. His return to form this year is anything but guaranteed.
I don't know how it gets harder than what he walked into. The NFL is fucking hard and most teams fail.
They solidified the most important and hardest position to fill on a roster.
The other dynamic here is the night and day difference this team is in just one year in the eyes of free agents who are deciding where to play.
Does anyone remember when Whitworth did not want to sign here? We have no idea how many free agents we went after but could not sign because we were viewed as a shit place to land with a horrible GM and equally bad coaches.
Not that anyone is giving the Giants a discount when it comes to a free agent contract, but if the compensation is equal you may now have guys who want to play for Daboll. Players who also want to actually win and not just play for money may want to come here too.
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The Giants didn’t want a 5th year
would love to hear the details of that. Doesn't sound right.
the only way it's right is if buying out a year 5 increased their costs substantially - which it probably did.
it sounds like jones got 92m guaranteed for a 4 year deal. so to "buy" another year it could have cost nyg as much as 20-30m more in guaranteed money.
im sure there is a rate table agents go off based on different factors and to get 1 extra year (20% longer deal) i think the guaranteed money would have had to increase by more than that same 20% and instead of a deal practically guaranteed for 3 years it would have become a deal practically guaranteed for 4.
That was the stated choice. It was already announced that this was what they wanted to do. So if you are saying what they announce/wanted was a poor choice, then that is the argument. But given that it was the direction the team announced it was an optimal outcome, not a blink.
Someone posted yesterday all the QBs Daboll has coached in his 20+ years. Some greats and some mediocres. I think the man fully understands QB play and can evaluate QBs. Think of what Schoen and Daboll did to Jones. Basically told him(by not doing the 5th year option) we do not believe you are worthy of a 5th year with the Giants - now go out and show us that you are worthy. They made him play for his football life/career. Not a bad way to see if he can perform under pressure.
I also believe that Barkley's roll will evolve this season. I think they find a banger in the draft and limit Barkley's touches to keep him fresher. Clearly the Houston game took serious tread off the tires.
Schoen and Daboll have a plan on how they will build the Giants. They got their QB, now they will build a team that gives Jones the best players for his attributes.
Neither side may have not wanted a 5th year. One of the Giants add one more year on it makes getting out of Jones doesn't improve enough much more expensive. Jones I'm sore thinks he will be in his absolute prime and will want to be able to ask for even more at 30 than at 31.
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the Giants blinked, so now it's build the best team they can around Jones and SB, and go to war for the next two, possibly three years. I just hope we didn't see their respective bests in 2022.
That was the stated choice. It was already announced that this was what they wanted to do. So if you are saying what they announce/wanted was a poor choice, then that is the argument. But given that it was the direction the team announced it was an optimal outcome, not a blink.
I don't think Jones' contract terms are optimal for the Giants. But, at this point in time no longer really worth debating. They made their decision(s). My attention turns to hoping they go after talent upgrades, and hopefully they got it right and won't need an escape hatch on Jones in two years.
I don't think Jones' contract terms are optimal for the Giants. But, at this point in time no longer really worth debating. They made their decision(s). My attention turns to hoping they go after talent upgrades, and hopefully they got it right and won't need an escape hatch on Jones in two years.
exactly... and the Giants have cap experts who help them to make this decision.
people here get too wrapped up in the money or the contract. Just watch the games and let smart people do the thinking for you.
Meanwhile, how many people here are questioning every move the fund manager makes with their 401k investment and that is directly impacting your personal finances.
The longer contract would give them control of Jones for an extra year.
It also enables them to spread out the prorated bonus over an extra year reducing the CAP impact.
Jones on the other hand would want a shorter contract. He is able to hit free agency again at 29. The CAP will be significantly higher then and if he is successful, he will be able to get a contract far in excess of the $40M.
Jones will be betting on his potential.
But ok...
The longer contract would give them control of Jones for an extra year.
It also enables them to spread out the prorated bonus over an extra year reducing the CAP impact.
Jones on the other hand would want a shorter contract. He is able to hit free agency again at 29. The CAP will be significantly higher then and if he is successful, he will be able to get a contract far in excess of the $40M.
Jones will be betting on his potential.
If DJ meets the Giants expectations, then there’s nothing to stop them from extending him in a few years..
FUCK the tag. RB tag is one thing, QB is quite another.
PS Jones carried the offense in 22. .
FUCK the tag. RB tag is one thing, QB is quite another.
PS Jones carried the offense in 22. .
Sure, as a last resort, you tag him. I’m thrilled this got done for a bunch of reasons, but I’m also glad we don’t have to go through the same shit next year…:)
The Giants didn’t blink. This is what they wanted at the price they knew it was going to cost. They had two choices, pay or walk away.
This was my take last night...
Not a good deal for the Giants, they caved.
The only reason I can see for caving was to be able to use the tag on SB.
I agree, better to tag DJ and negotiate on the tag and let SB walk.
They panicked unnecessarily.
In comment 16056756 DefenseWins said:
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I don't think Jones' contract terms are optimal for the Giants. But, at this point in time no longer really worth debating. They made their decision(s). My attention turns to hoping they go after talent upgrades, and hopefully they got it right and won't need an escape hatch on Jones in two years.
exactly... and the Giants have cap experts who help them to make this decision.
people here get too wrapped up in the money or the contract. Just watch the games and let smart people do the thinking for you.
Meanwhile, how many people here are questioning every move the fund manager makes with their 401k investment and that is directly impacting your personal finances.
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I can't imagine that the Giants did not want a longer contract.
The longer contract would give them control of Jones for an extra year.
It also enables them to spread out the prorated bonus over an extra year reducing the CAP impact.
Jones on the other hand would want a shorter contract. He is able to hit free agency again at 29. The CAP will be significantly higher then and if he is successful, he will be able to get a contract far in excess of the $40M.
Jones will be betting on his potential.
If DJ meets the Giants expectations, then there’s nothing to stop them from extending him in a few years..
Exactly! The kid might have another 2 pay days left in him if he continues to ascend.
2) If you like DJ the QB (or are Luke-warm but optimistic) it's a good deal for the Giants (and/or both parties). Also, we can now move forward, keep building the team talent/depth, and keep trending upward.
:)
What Eric said above is pretty spot on.
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The Giants didn’t want a 5th year
Correct me if I'm wrong ajr, but isn't it a bit of a wash? Because by year 3, certainly by year 4, Giants will know which way they need to go with Jones: either extend and re-calibrate the cap hit or cut bait. In other words, it's about optionality.
Pretty much.
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It was Barkley driven and to me a signal that they will be attacking a window here. I don't think they should have prioritized Barkley over more favorable terms on a longterm QB extension. That's where the disagreement comes in and that's fine, I understand it.
This was my take last night...
Not a good deal for the Giants, they caved.
The only reason I can see for caving was to be able to use the tag on SB.
I agree, better to tag DJ and negotiate on the tag and let SB walk.
They panicked unnecessarily.
***eye roll***
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In comment 16056700 AcesUp said:
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It was Barkley driven and to me a signal that they will be attacking a window here. I don't think they should have prioritized Barkley over more favorable terms on a longterm QB extension. That's where the disagreement comes in and that's fine, I understand it.
This was my take last night...
Not a good deal for the Giants, they caved.
The only reason I can see for caving was to be able to use the tag on SB.
I agree, better to tag DJ and negotiate on the tag and let SB walk.
They panicked unnecessarily.
***eye roll***
Exactly. The amount of projection here and just plain made up stuff is pretty amazing.
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the Giants blinked, so now it's build the best team they can around Jones and SB, and go to war for the next two, possibly three years. I just hope we didn't see their respective bests in 2022.
The Giants didn’t blink. This is what they wanted at the price they knew it was going to cost. They had two choices, pay or walk away.
Based on what I'd heard early on, the final result was significantly higher than where they started. SB's contract further complicated things. Call it what you will, Giants came way up on Jones.
if Jones performs well next season year two is certain to be restructured
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the Giants blinked, so now it's build the best team they can around Jones and SB, and go to war for the next two, possibly three years. I just hope we didn't see their respective bests in 2022.
The Giants didn’t blink. This is what they wanted at the price they knew it was going to cost. They had two choices, pay or walk away.
It looks like the Giants did quite well.
The key here is deciding as a fan to either listen to the peanut gallery or the Giants coaches.
Jones continues to improve.
Schoen drafts well.
I'm not 100% sold on either happening; Jones could get injured or regress, and Schoen's first draft was OK but not a home run. Daboll was the real home run last year, now it's time for everyone else to reach his level of performance
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It was Barkley driven and to me a signal that they will be attacking a window here. I don't think they should have prioritized Barkley over more favorable terms on a longterm QB extension. That's where the disagreement comes in and that's fine, I understand it.
This was my take last night...
Not a good deal for the Giants, they caved.
The only reason I can see for caving was to be able to use the tag on SB.
I agree, better to tag DJ and negotiate on the tag and let SB walk.
They panicked unnecessarily.
They see him as a QB that can win a Superbowl with and did not want to force him to play on the tag. They had previously declined year 5. Now you're gonna tag him? Sure, if you don't believe in him fully yet.
If you do believe him, you sign him for multiple years and get room in 2023
I think they wanted Barkley, they felt they needed Jones.
I would expect a deal to be negotiated with Barkley, but even if not, this is likely a 2 year window to build a better team around it's 2 offensive stars. I think adding an OC at a minimum on the OL, a high draft pick + FA at WR, and a TE2 sets this team up for more success next year.
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the Giants blinked, so now it's build the best team they can around Jones and SB, and go to war for the next two, possibly three years. I just hope we didn't see their respective bests in 2022.
The Giants didn’t blink. This is what they wanted at the price they knew it was going to cost. They had two choices, pay or walk away.
Of course they didn’t blink
Contenders win by scoring more points than their opponents. We scored fewer points than the opposition. We have a ways to go folks.