2 more reasonable years at similar numbers non-guaranteed after. hasnt seemed as explosive since the knee but he is still a good player. dont think id give up a 2 but the toney pick probably. before the knee injury he looked like he was going to be a monster.
if the comp was a 5th or lower. And Denver would have to eat some of that salary.
Good size for sure, but he's never been an explosive/quick player.
he was pre knee injury. he was a 4.4 guy and his 3 cone was just as fast as jsn even 20 pounds heavier. he was one of the most explosive receivers in the league in his pro bowl year pre-acl.
as JS and Daboll said they want guys who can separate. Not necessarily big body 4.5 guys like Sutton/Golliday (RIP)
Sutton much better than KG. I would do it for a 4th. Salary reasonable. He gets some separation, not just a size guy. Sorta like a bigger ju ju smith shuster.
nextgen stats had him open a lot last year, he had a worse year than normal catching the ball though. not sure if he's just lost some explosiveness since the knee injury or if it's been that he's been on bad offenses. 13 ypc the last 2 years isn't bad but it's not the 15/16 he averaged his first 2 years.
the salary is pretty reasonable though so if the trade cost is reasonable i'd consider him along with hopkins. both of them are kind of like randy moss oakland, they could be done or they could be covered in the stink of bad organizations burning through head coaches.
Torn ACL in 2020. His yards were up last season over 2021, but still less than pre injury. He also has a $14M salary.
I know many people want to trade up in the first round for a WR or trade a day one or two pick for a veteran WR, but it's a mistake.
doesn't that entirely depend on the trade? do you think the browns regret getting cooper for a song last year? or the eagles ajb?
Amari Cooper and A.J. Brown are widely regarded as superb, even before the trade. Sutton has been inconsistent. He's had one pretty good year, and I get it, he got hurt in the middle. But despite the great 3-cone at the combine, it's one where you wondering why he doesn't get more consistent separation between the lines. Doesn't seem to show up on the field.
I don't think he's the worst suggestion, but I'm more inclined to keep the draft ammo for guys that don't have the injury and miles on them and will be on rookie deals. Way better suggestion than Allen Robinson or Adam Thielen, but still prefer to go the young player route.
This is not what we need. We’re need at least 10 good quality starters/backups to fill out the roster. We need guys on cost controlled first contracts or reasonably priced FA. And I’m not trading any draft assets unless it an absolute steal. Even adding in Golladay we only have $20m in cap room. We’ll probably generate some more but we could get 2 good players for Sutton’s hit.
2 more reasonable years at similar numbers non-guaranteed after. hasnt seemed as explosive since the knee but he is still a good player. dont think id give up a 2 but the toney pick probably. before the knee injury he looked like he was going to be a monster.
Says he wants to go somewhere where he is appreciated. That screams wants more money.
RE: this is the exact same 3 cone jsn just ran - except 22 lbs heavier
nextgen stats had him open a lot last year, he had a worse year than normal catching the ball though. not sure if he's just lost some explosiveness since the knee injury or if it's been that he's been on bad offenses. 13 ypc the last 2 years isn't bad but it's not the 15/16 he averaged his first 2 years.
the salary is pretty reasonable though so if the trade cost is reasonable i'd consider him along with hopkins. both of them are kind of like randy moss oakland, they could be done or they could be covered in the stink of bad organizations burning through head coaches.
If its an ACL tear what we have seen is guys generally return after a year but aren't quite as explosive until year 2. Most of the younger guys seem to get their explosion back year 2. Saquon as a prime example.
Sutton has potential as an intriguing option depending on the type of WR Schoen/Daboll want fot this offense as a complement to DJs skillset.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
If he costs less than a 1.... He may not have the upside of Hopkins as Hopkins is a beast when healthy but the age factor makes him a lower risk.
The trade market is going to have a number of WR options and flavors for the Giants to choose from with varying price tags. There may be a surprise or two that could pop up too. Michael Pittman, Adams? Aiyuk...
and I've responded with the same thing and haven't seen anyone comment on it, but isn't Adams pointless to trade for the Raiders and unless you got multiple firsts? I've linked Adams' contract details...
If he's traded pre 6/1 there is a -16M cap hit. His dead cap hit is 31M and his cap hit is only 15M. So they lose money.
If he's traded post 6/1 they will save 7M this year, but have a 23M dead cap hit next year. Link - ( New Window )
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
This is exactly correct. I’m not sayid trade for Sutton, necessarily but BBI repeats the same stuff for ANY player that may be available. “We aren’t one player away”. Well, isn’t the idea to add as many good players as they can? There are many avenues to adding good players. Throwing darts at draft picks is only one way.
Giants fans love to put the cart before the horse. Always dreaming of building some kind of decade long dynasty through the draft. Maybe we should focus on winning the division and a couple rounds of playoff games before we start worrying about dynasties?
We have tons of space/flexibility this year and the next few years. We don't have any albatross contracts anymore that we can't fix. We have a ton of draft picks and we are desperate for high end talent at a position that is vital in todays NFL. Be aggressive.
if Adam's is traded next year, there is significant savings. I think we will see Adams on the Raiders this season.
Yeah dead cap is not favorable but it still wouldnt be greater than his salary if he remained on the team. If the Raiders think they need another QB and dont plan to trade for a vet, teams usually don't expect a guy whos drafted to be ready to compete for a championship until year 2 or 3. Adams is on the back half of his prime. If they get a 1 + a bit more for him that might be enough.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
what's also funny is that many appear to think you can just draft a full wide receiver room.
last year entering camp the top 4 were clearly golladay, toney, shepard, robinson. those were the roster locks.
colin johnson and david sills made some noise in camp, slayton had a camp so bad they tried to get rid of him but nobody wanted him, richie james was under the radar.
out of that entire list they currently have hodgins healthy. that's it.
the fa class is so bad you could make a case slayton or james is the best they could do there. so something has to give.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
We have tons of space/flexibility this year and the next few years. We don't have any albatross contracts anymore that we can't fix. We have a ton of draft picks and we are desperate for high end talent at a position that is vital in todays NFL. Be aggressive.
They could lose Wink next year and DJ's contract kind of gives them a 2 year ish window to be really aggressive. How different are they than the 2021 Eagles who got crushed in the playoffs? They traded for a #1 WR, signed a 2nd M2M CB and added depth to the pass rush and became a powerhouse. We have a clear window now. Go for it!
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
How exactly are you putting all of your eggs in 1 basket? You are suggesting holding onto your eggs until they break in your hands. Go get Jones a high end WR.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
i dont think anyone is advocating putting all eggs in the wr basket, but i would say it's the position group that needs the most eggs of any on the roster.
i think that translates to at least:
1 multi-year starter level vet
1 top 100 draft pick
1 day 3 pick
1 cheaper vet (this could be bringing back 1 or 2 of james/slayton/shepard if cheap enough)
that would put 5 healthy bodies on their depth chart, so they could/should double up in at least 1 of those categories.
is there a thinner position group in the entire nfl right now?they are going to need to add 6+ bodies just to run 2 units and not kill hodgins in mini camp presuming wandale and cj are still rehabbing.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
We also need WR's and to score points. We've been solidifying the OL for a decade.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
what's also funny is that many appear to think you can just draft a full wide receiver room.
last year entering camp the top 4 were clearly golladay, toney, shepard, robinson. those were the roster locks.
colin johnson and david sills made some noise in camp, slayton had a camp so bad they tried to get rid of him but nobody wanted him, richie james was under the radar.
out of that entire list they currently have hodgins healthy. that's it.
the fa class is so bad you could make a case slayton or james is the best they could do there. so something has to give.
None of the top 4 last year will either be on the team or be a great option as ACLs usually take 2 years to get full explosion back.
This unit is by far the thinnest and also a critical impact position.
If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
How exactly are you putting all of your eggs in 1 basket? You are suggesting holding onto your eggs until they break in your hands. Go get Jones a high end WR.
Draft, FA, and trade? At what cost? Who aren't you drafting, signing, or trading for in your zeal to totally revamp your WR corps? I'd listen to Meatloaf. "Two outta three ain't bad."
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
The first thing I'd do is trade a pick for a legitimate NFL WR. Someone who's had success in the NFL. I'd give a 2 for Hopkins. I'd give multiple 3rds for a guy like Sutton or Ayuik. I need to know who else is potentially available, but there are options.
I'd also sign a FA WR who will be inexpensive. Thielen, Slayton, someone of that ilk. I'd also draft someone with 1 of our first 3 picks as well.
Leaves us with plenty of money in FA for other positions, leaves us with 11 other draft picks to work with and now we turned a weakness into a strength.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
There are a lot of inaccurate statements here. First off, the link is from a recent comment about Schoen changing his mindset on how he builds from last year. I also remember many interviews leading up to the Eagles game about how the Giants think they are close. Giants no longer shopping in the bargain bin - ( New Window )
The first thing I'd do is trade a pick for a legitimate NFL WR. Someone who's had success in the NFL. I'd give a 2 for Hopkins. I'd give multiple 3rds for a guy like Sutton or Ayuik. I need to know who else is potentially available, but there are options.
I'd also sign a FA WR who will be inexpensive. Thielen, Slayton, someone of that ilk. I'd also draft someone with 1 of our first 3 picks as well.
Leaves us with plenty of money in FA for other positions, leaves us with 11 other draft picks to work with and now we turned a weakness into a strength.
BAM.
aiyuk is going to cost a 1st plus, but other than that i agree. id very much want to use cap space to be the team that gets an amari cooper-like solid starter for basically cap space and a day 3 (though i'd give up a 3rd for someone like hopkins if necessary).
of fa's i like berrios the most, i think you can get him on an affordable 2 year for less than half of what woods got and he upgrades return game. it's not over resourcing the guy who can place hold for robinson while he rehabs.
2 moves like that give them at least 3 starters you could pencil in an overall upgraded group to have some flexibility with draft. also neither of those routes count toward comp picks so if you give up a day 3, adding guys who dont factor into comp pick formula increase the odds they will get an extra day 3 for slayton/james in 2024.
How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
what healthy late 1st or late 3rd is on the roster to elevate?
they have no WRs on the roster other than hodgins, who obviously fits the description of someone who elevated here with jones. he got cut twice last year and nobody claimed him.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
There are a lot of inaccurate statements here. First off, the link is from a recent comment about Schoen changing his mindset on how he builds from last year. I also remember many interviews leading up to the Eagles game about how the Giants think they are close. Giants no longer shopping in the bargain bin - ( New Window )
No. You’re just being selective in trying to reinforce your echo chamber process.
How about that Eagles game? Quite the wake up call. Close is incredibly subjective.
Nobody said about being bargain bin shoppers. Quite the contrary. Giants need to be judicious with use of cap space and picks.
The Giants are much more likely to be a 6-11 team than an 11-6 team even with a “big” WR, whom is not available at all this off-season anyhow.
You find good solid WRs in the draft.
All Schoens comments reinforce is that he was able to make better evaluations of players in season and move off some preconceived notions that maybe were had of what they’d have to do this off-season. He has consistently stated how much work the roster needs wholesale. He is very concerned about the depth on the lines and on defense too.
I do wonder what Daboll is looking for aside from "good players"
Does he want this kind of size 50/50 player? I know they like Hodgins and he is dirt cheap, does Sutton take his spot as a starter? If so They will still need an X and a Z unless Robinson can come back in time.
How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
Eli had Plaxico, Shockey, Tiki (better receiving back than Saquon), Amani, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Odell Beckham. Which of these 7-8 has DJ ever had anything close to in his career?
There is only so much elevating a QB can do with subpar WR's. If you look at the final 8 playoff teams of last year everyone had a significantly better receiving core than the Giants did. The only one that had just 'ok' WRs has the best TE in the entire game who is the rare equal of a #1 WR.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
Who is the WR you are trading for? Diggs, Brown, Adams, Hill were all alpha receivers and foci of offenses and put up production at levels that were close to elite for multiple seasons and cost significant draft capital and contract commitments?
Who is that WR this off-season? It’s not Tee Higgins or Courtland Sutton.
We do need a deep threat. Those numbers dipped last year but it may be more a factor of coming off the injury and playing in the Hackett/Russ offense. Despite his agility numbers coming out of the draft, he's been pretty mediocre in terms of his seperation on targets - 50th-70th last couple of years.
I was out on him initially because I preferred Jeudy and felt that type of WR would better fit our offense. However, he does bring something to the table that we don't have. We'd still need more speed and we'd still need a separator. Those guys are more available in this particular draft though.
The priority has flipped for the Broncos since the deadline and they're looking to move Sutton over Jeudy now. Makes sense with the coaching change, Jeudy's stronger finish and the $$$ with their cap situation.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
Who is the WR you are trading for? Diggs, Brown, Adams, Hill were all alpha receivers and foci of offenses and put up production at levels that were close to elite for multiple seasons and cost significant draft capital and contract commitments?
Who is that WR this off-season? It’s not Tee Higgins or Courtland Sutton.
We don't know who pries free but:
Aiyuk
Pittman Jr
Adams
Or a 'bridge' like Hopkins who was on pace for 1400 yds last year.
Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
I don't think Sutton is that player. He has air injury history and an expensive contract. No interest.
This obsession by some here with trading draft picks for mediocre or declining players and absorbing massive cap hits is mind boggling to me.
Agreed.
is it really more mind boggling than looking at this depth chart and thinking 'all good, just need some cheap young guys'?
trades off the table, how are you upgrading or even replacing the 3000+ snaps at WR currently vacated from last year? hodgins is literally the only healthy receiver they have right now.
some people see as being aggressive I see as shopping hungry. The whole league knows we need WRs. That by itself will increase the cost of any trade. Sutton and Hopkins are expensive, aging, players with injury histories. They aren't even worth a three IMO.
Some other points:
(1) This draft is also loaded with WRs.
(2) This team has a ton of holes at other position groups, including C, LB, and CB.
(3) We need to extend Lawrence and possibly resign Love.
(4) We can resign Slayton.
I'm not averse to trading a day three pick for a veteran WR, but would not trade a day one or two pick for one, or trade up in the first round for one.
How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
what healthy late 1st or late 3rd is on the roster to elevate?
they have no WRs on the roster other than hodgins, who obviously fits the description of someone who elevated here with jones. he got cut twice last year and nobody claimed him.
entering camp your wr group includes who?
I want to draft a WR...two, depending on how things shake out. One relatively high, 1st or 2nd round; one mid-to-late, trusting in my scouts to earn their paychecks (and that goes with UDFA's, too}. I may not be able to find a "unicorn," a prototypical "X," but I'd be more than happy with two legit "Z's" from this draft.
I might even look to draft a TE, since the class is stacked, and although I'm pretty high on Bellinger, I like the idea of adding strength to strength.
I'd also look to sign a UFA WR, with the caveat that my first priority in free agency would be defense - D-Line, LB, DB's.
What I wouldn't do is sacrifice draft capital on a WR prior to the draft; certainly not a Day 2 pick. I'd want to use that capital to build a more complete team, one that's strong on both sides of the ball and is built for the long haul (unintentional rhyme).
The Giants are not in a win-now mode. I'm sorry, but they're just not. They don't have the talent to compete with the top teams in their division, let alone the rest of the league. A football team has to be more than just a QB and a stellar cast of WR's. As great as the need is to give Jones better weapons, in my view the need to make the Giants a better overall team should take precedence.
At least that's not the public sentiment. Consensus seems to land span anywhere from weak to ok. The value of the WR class tends to be in the late 1 to day 2 range. That's largely a function of there being a strong crop of complimentary guys - a lot of undersized slot guys that may be able to play outside. Some pure slot guys as well.
But I know the answer won't be perfect. The Giants will need to either make a trade or overpay in some capacity in free agency. Even if that overpay is a guy like Chark at 10m or another guy in that tier (Woods just got 7.5).
At least that's not the public sentiment. Consensus seems to land span anywhere from weak to ok. The value of the WR class tends to be in the late 1 to day 2 range. That's largely a function of there being a strong crop of complimentary guys - a lot of undersized slot guys that may be able to play outside. Some pure slot guys as well.
I don’t think we should just casually chalk up attention to “public sentiment” and ignore folks that follow college football and the draft.
That’s totally false. This is a deep and stacked WR group. You will see lot of production in this class 5 yrs from now. People are getting numb because they see the WR classes deeper year over year and are slathering over a generational receiver in Harrison next year that isnt in this years class and overreacting to Wilson and Olave last season and leveling those expectations out of the gate on this group.
I mean the guys that scout and cover the draft for a living. The strength of this WR class is wildly overrated on this board. It's not awful, you can find dudes but no where else would you find is described as strong.
RE: if you trade for hopkins he has 0 guaranteed $
robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
But I know the answer won't be perfect. The Giants will need to either make a trade or overpay in some capacity in free agency. Even if that overpay is a guy like Chark at 10m or another guy in that tier (Woods just got 7.5).
Texans overpaid for a declining Woods because they are a dumpster fire last half decade and need veteran support. They are trying to get rid of Cooks and his bad attitude and bad contract they gave him in first place.
Some folks keep seemingly want us to accept and emulate fairly consistently rundown and questionably managed franchises like the Jags, Browns, Cards, Texans in these “market” arguments. I want us to be far away from that. These are teams that shop hungry and run themselves stupid. They’re the reason NFL enforces parity so they get lucky now and then.
And options available. We overpaid for Glowinski last year, Schoen isn't immune when it's required to plug a leak.
I'm not saying that the Giants should go on a spending spree at the position but I can almost guarantee you they will make at least 1 move before the draft that looks gross on the surface.
Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
drafting 2 wrs + 1 te is no issue, they have 11 picks
but if you don't add someone with starting experience you're entering the draft not just hungry but malnourished with hodgins as your most experienced wr with all of 10 starts.
6 wide receivers went top 18 last year and it wasn't even that great of a year at the position. what happens if nolan smith or joey porter is the best player available on the clock? another year of sills starting game 1?
i think there's a lot of eyes wide shut on how bad this fa wr class is (slayton likely being one of the best is case in point). i'd imagine he'll get more than the 10m guaranteed robert woods just got off a worse season in every statistical measure and 5 years older. richie james too possibly since most of that applies to him too. unless either comes in way under that it's a hard pass and there literally arent any wr's in fa who played better than they did last year except meyers who is going to get paid a lot more than that.
by contrast there are a lot of multi-year starters at ilb, dl, and even cb/fs available in fa.
some people see as being aggressive I see as shopping hungry. The whole league knows we need WRs. That by itself will increase the cost of any trade. Sutton and Hopkins are expensive, aging, players with injury histories. They aren't even worth a three IMO.
Some other points:
(1) This draft is also loaded with WRs.
(2) This team has a ton of holes at other position groups, including C, LB, and CB.
(3) We need to extend Lawrence and possibly resign Love.
(4) We can resign Slayton.
I'm not averse to trading a day three pick for a veteran WR, but would not trade a day one or two pick for one, or trade up in the first round for one.
No day 1 OR day 2 pick? Then the guy we get back is simply not going to be that good and our WR room is practically empty right now.
Not waiting for a rookie WR to be some sort of savior next year either.
RE: drafting 2 wrs + 1 te is no issue, they have 11 picks
but if you don't add someone with starting experience you're entering the draft not just hungry but malnourished with hodgins as your most experienced wr with all of 10 starts.
6 wide receivers went top 18 last year and it wasn't even that great of a year at the position. what happens if nolan smith or joey porter is the best player available on the clock? another year of sills starting game 1?
i think there's a lot of eyes wide shut on how bad this fa wr class is (slayton likely being one of the best is case in point). i'd imagine he'll get more than the 10m guaranteed robert woods just got off a worse season in every statistical measure and 5 years older. richie james too possibly since most of that applies to him too. unless either comes in way under that it's a hard pass and there literally arent any wr's in fa who played better than they did last year except meyers who is going to get paid a lot more than that.
by contrast there are a lot of multi-year starters at ilb, dl, and even cb/fs available in fa.
Unless someone thinks Jacoby has a pretty decent amount of untapped potential, the FA class is about as barren as it gets.
And options available. We overpaid for Glowinski last year, Schoen isn't immune when it's required to plug a leak.
I'm not saying that the Giants should go on a spending spree at the position but I can almost guarantee you they will make at least 1 move before the draft that looks gross on the surface.
I’ll bet against you on that.
RE: RE: if you trade for hopkins he has 0 guaranteed $
robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
2d
#AZCardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins admitted on @PatMcAfeeShow that he’s “been hearing a lot of trade talks.” On that subject, my understanding is if a trade did happen, he’d be flexible on the last two years of his contract – rather than shoot for a top-of-the-market deal.
his current deal is 2 years 34m, $0 guaranteed - which is probably the best low risk non-rookie contract of any player with a legitimate case to being considered a WR1 in the entire NFL right now.
This organization showed a tremendous amount of aggressiveness
When they thought they had a strong coaching staff in place with JJ/Garrett/Graham off a nice but not even spectacular finish to the regular season 2 years ago.
They went out and got KG who at the time was in theory the best available FA WR on the market who when healthy DID show #1 WR traits and production. Then spent a 1st on Toney and spent 14M on Rudolph as out complement to Engram.
How much more so after a 9.5 win season and a playoff win with less on each side of the ball talent wise with the Coach of the year in Brian Daboll and a bonafide great DC with a track record to match AND some cap space and a ton more in 2024 to hedge against.....will they not also be just as aggressive this year and trying to take the next step???
Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
It's a bad idea because he has a $19.5M salary and a long injury history. Again, everybody knows we need WRs, which only increases the price. Don't shop hungry.
Who are the active WRs in Week 1? Hodgins and Wan'Dale are the only guys that either have reps or draft pedigree as starts here. Keep in mind, there's a chance Wan'Dale starts the season on PUP. They're going to have a least 5 guys active on game day. Who are they? YOu don't have to tell me exactly who, but paint a picture on what the depth chart looks like.
It's ok if you disagree with me here but I'm just curious what the alternatives are? You're either trading for a WR, overpaying in the 15 AAV range for the top of the market on a WR2/3 or overpaying for a fading vet/underachieving 2nd contract in the 5-10 AAV range. Unless you think they're drafting 3+ WRs and having all or most of them active on game day. Nevermind the poor strategy of entering the draft absolutely NEEDING a WR with your first pick.
Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
It's a bad idea because he has a $19.5M salary and a long injury history. Again, everybody knows we need WRs, which only increases the price. Don't shop hungry.
Tlin this case, the potential benefit greatly outweighs the risk of not taking the swing at all.
RE: RE: RE: if you trade for hopkins he has 0 guaranteed $
robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
Quote:
Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
2d
#AZCardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins admitted on @PatMcAfeeShow that he’s “been hearing a lot of trade talks.” On that subject, my understanding is if a trade did happen, he’d be flexible on the last two years of his contract – rather than shoot for a top-of-the-market deal.
his current deal is 2 years 34m, $0 guaranteed - which is probably the best low risk non-rookie contract of any player with a legitimate case to being considered a WR1 in the entire NFL right now.
He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
RE: This organization showed a tremendous amount of aggressiveness
When they thought they had a strong coaching staff in place with JJ/Garrett/Graham off a nice but not even spectacular finish to the regular season 2 years ago.
They went out and got KG who at the time was in theory the best available FA WR on the market who when healthy DID show #1 WR traits and production. Then spent a 1st on Toney and spent 14M on Rudolph as out complement to Engram.
How much more so after a 9.5 win season and a playoff win with less on each side of the ball talent wise with the Coach of the year in Brian Daboll and a bonafide great DC with a track record to match AND some cap space and a ton more in 2024 to hedge against.....will they not also be just as aggressive this year and trying to take the next step???
There’s an entirely new front office, scouting staff and coaching staff. You are using the “organization” precedent very loosely here.
has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
those are all injuries that he played through and/or cost him practice time. The dude missed 2 games in his first 8 years and then last year missed games for suspension.
2021 was the only year where injuries cost him games.
has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
Some people on this board need to accept the reality that we're out of groceries. So you shop hungry in the draft or a little bit in other markets. I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation. They need to give themselves options early in the draft, can't be tied to WR. Being more aggressive than my own preference is something I understand as well. DG left the cupboard pretty bare here and we're still sorting through it after having to attack other priorities first last offseason.
The reality is that we're not building this thing entirely through the draft in 1 offseason so at a minimum we'll be shopping for a couple of stop gaps. And at the WR position, they're not going to be dirt cheap.
those are all injuries that he played through and/or cost him practice time. The dude missed 2 games in his first 8 years and then last year missed games for suspension.
2021 was the only year where injuries cost him games.
At his age, and with his contract, it's cumulatively too much IMO. Same for Sutton, and his ACL tear was in September 2020 IIRC.
RE: RE: RE: RE: if you trade for hopkins he has 0 guaranteed $
He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
your twisting what rapoport reported. none of us know what his priorities are or how strong his market is. what we know is the cardinals owner came out and said they are moving on from him and he's under contract under market so they are unlikely going to cut him - which means it's a situation that's possibly exploitable not unlike the cowboys/cooper last year. especially after the ped suspension (which also voided his ntc). the chiefs, giants, and patriots were the rumored teams at the combine per a cardinals beat reporter. the pats just got his former coach BOB so that makes sense. chiefs are a little harder to see happening because they dont have a lot of cap room.
whoever trades for him likely converts some of his salary this year into bonus money to lower his cap # but how robust his market is remains to be seen. it's not unlike bradberry last year where teams were willing to trade for him but not willing to meet his contract demands, so he ended up playing for less money than a trade. giving up a 3rd for the existing contract is imo a no-brainer and i could live with a conditional pick in 2024 depending on whether or not the nyg keep him beyond 2023.
the WR market is not the same as the IOL market last year
I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
there isn't a perfect solution. There is risk no matter what we do. However, once we signed Jones, we've become a team ready to win. I'd rather take my chances with a guy that's proven to be a top 3 WR in the NFL and still has some game left.
has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
The Giants do not have a "window now." That is wishful thinking. This team has a ton of holes, including journeymen backups and unproven commodities except for Thomas on the OL, and real needs at LB and CB.
I vote for none of your options. People are deluding themselves if they think Schoen is going to trade a first for a veteran WR, especially when one of Addison, JSN, Flowers, or Johnston will be available at #25. I don't see him trading a second or third for one either.
RE: the WR market is not the same as the IOL market last year
I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
RE: RE: the WR market is not the same as the IOL market last year
I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
i think 1 of the key parts of this offense is players not being 1 dimensional. slayton and hodgins both spent a good amount of time in the slot, not just james.
hardman is interesting since he can help on ST (which schoen commented on wanting to improve) and knows kafka. he would be an upgrade on slayton and james, kind of a blend of the 2 of them, so depending on cost i could see that.
berrios and mckenzie are 2 names i like at a cheaper end to replace james. but guys like hopkins and sutton are big enough upgrades on slayton i think they are worth it if the trade cost is reasonable.
I actually think this offense improved when they got WRs with specific skillsets into certain roles. We didn't have that guy that could win at all 3 levels but between the three of Slayton (deep), Hodgins (intermediate) and James (short) we were able to open some things up once they emerged. We had a basketball team. I think they should build next years team with an eye towards that strategy as well but maybe aim for a little more juice. The draft should be used for BPA - both positionwise and regarding which WRs they target.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: if you trade for hopkins he has 0 guaranteed $
He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
your twisting what rapoport reported. none of us know what his priorities are or how strong his market is. what we know is the cardinals owner came out and said they are moving on from him and he's under contract under market so they are unlikely going to cut him - which means it's a situation that's possibly exploitable not unlike the cowboys/cooper last year. especially after the ped suspension (which also voided his ntc). the chiefs, giants, and patriots were the rumored teams at the combine per a cardinals beat reporter. the pats just got his former coach BOB so that makes sense. chiefs are a little harder to see happening because they dont have a lot of cap room.
whoever trades for him likely converts some of his salary this year into bonus money to lower his cap # but how robust his market is remains to be seen. it's not unlike bradberry last year where teams were willing to trade for him but not willing to meet his contract demands, so he ended up playing for less money than a trade. giving up a 3rd for the existing contract is imo a no-brainer and i could live with a conditional pick in 2024 depending on whether or not the nyg keep him beyond 2023.
How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
Eli had Plaxico, Shockey, Tiki (better receiving back than Saquon), Amani, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Odell Beckham. Which of these 7-8 has DJ ever had anything close to in his career?
There is only so much elevating a QB can do with subpar WR's. If you look at the final 8 playoff teams of last year everyone had a significantly better receiving core than the Giants did. The only one that had just 'ok' WRs has the best TE in the entire game who is the rare equal of a #1 WR.
Now how well did any of those guys do without Eli?
I actually think this offense improved when they got WRs with specific skillsets into certain roles. We didn't have that guy that could win at all 3 levels but between the three of Slayton (deep), Hodgins (intermediate) and James (short) we were able to open some things up once they emerged. We had a basketball team. I think they should build next years team with an eye towards that strategy as well but maybe aim for a little more juice. The draft should be used for BPA - both positionwise and regarding which WRs they target.
i think we need to start from the place of they didnt win deep nearly enough last year. slayton as the best deep threat still only had 2 tds, and the one against jax may have actually been a drop. the challenge for the nyg fo is that there's no deep threat in UFA better than slayton.
the reason slayton isnt more of a consideration to return is that his limitations (specifically dropping easy ones when he had plenty of seperation) held them back and almost cost them a few games (wild card and first wash game included). swapping slayton with someone like sutton or hopkins in addition to drafting a top 100 WR would be a significant upgrade if trade costs are reasonable.
james was very good at his role so i wouldn't have as big of an issue bringing him back i just expect he'll cost more than someone like berrios who can do that role similarly.
i dont think it's out of the question that slayton gets paid like mvs this year (10m aav) or james gets paid similarly to zay jones/robert woods (7-9m aav). im sure thats what their agents are looking for.
has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
The Giants do not have a "window now." That is wishful thinking. This team has a ton of holes, including journeymen backups and unproven commodities except for Thomas on the OL, and real needs at LB and CB.
I vote for none of your options. People are deluding themselves if they think Schoen is going to trade a first for a veteran WR, especially when one of Addison, JSN, Flowers, or Johnston will be available at #25. I don't see him trading a second or third for one either.
Acid personally I think it will be a 'double dip' both in FA/Trade market and the draft. The draft is a much more unknown commidity than the vet established WR . The draft if you guess right on the talent, guess right on if he is injury prone or not and then after all that if he has a relatively short learning curve.
RE: RE: RE: the WR market is not the same as the IOL market last year
I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
i think 1 of the key parts of this offense is players not being 1 dimensional. slayton and hodgins both spent a good amount of time in the slot, not just james.
hardman is interesting since he can help on ST (which schoen commented on wanting to improve) and knows kafka. he would be an upgrade on slayton and james, kind of a blend of the 2 of them, so depending on cost i could see that.
berrios and mckenzie are 2 names i like at a cheaper end to replace james. but guys like hopkins and sutton are big enough upgrades on slayton i think they are worth it if the trade cost is reasonable.
But I get it. If Hopkins or Sutton were available for a 3 or 3+, I think it would be worth it because those are picks that can easily be recouped by trading back with our first or second picks. It gets dicey for me at 2 or more when you have to worry about Hopkins not being what he was as soon as next season and Sutton having not yet proven himself to be that guy. I don't see either contract as bad though, actually a positive when looking at the current and future WR markets. If Hopkins wants a new contract or a lot of new money then that's another one that gets a little hairy depending on his ask.
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
But I get it. If Hopkins or Sutton were available for a 3 or 3+, I think it would be worth it because those are picks that can easily be recouped by trading back with our first or second picks. It gets dicey for me at 2 or more when you have to worry about Hopkins not being what he was as soon as next season and Sutton having not yet proven himself to be that guy. I don't see either contract as bad though, actually a positive when looking at the current and future WR markets. If Hopkins wants a new contract or a lot of new money then that's another one that gets a little hairy depending on his ask.
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
pretty much agree all around.
1 hidden cost of the UFA market is that you are possibly canceling out a day 3 pick comp. if slayton gets paid similar to engram, that could be a 5th round comp pick in 2024. so resigning him or signing someone at a similar price level (hardman) that cancels him out isn't "free".
so if sutton costs pick #100 but saves you from having to give out guaranteed $ in UFA that also costs you pick #175 in 2024, the value spread isnt as different as it seems.
signing golladay not only cost the giants $, he cancelled out a dalvin tomlinson 4th round comp pick in the 2022 draft. that would have been a higher pick than the browns gave up for amari cooper. or they could have used the pick to draft khalil shakur or kyle phillips (both 5th rounders).
But I get it. If Hopkins or Sutton were available for a 3 or 3+, I think it would be worth it because those are picks that can easily be recouped by trading back with our first or second picks. It gets dicey for me at 2 or more when you have to worry about Hopkins not being what he was as soon as next season and Sutton having not yet proven himself to be that guy. I don't see either contract as bad though, actually a positive when looking at the current and future WR markets. If Hopkins wants a new contract or a lot of new money then that's another one that gets a little hairy depending on his ask.
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
Very fair take Aces. I would think if they spend a 2 or a 1 they will be highly confident on what they are bringing in including the risks involved.
Personally I think as opposed to KG who from the get go showed he was extremely injury prone in Detroit a guy like Hopkins has been quite durable throughout his career. I think he would be worth the risk personally even at a low 2 pick or even noreso if he is a 3. Sutton to me has quite a bit of untapped potential and should make a full recovery from the injury. Definitely not interested if they ask for a 1 but a 2 or less and Im quite intrigued.
But you want to draft WRs if you can draft studs up to RD 4. The same people who keep saying the Giants have all this cap space then will be whining sue Wells's Dex or McKinney.
but this is supposed to be a good mid range draft - hoping we can find our WR in Rd1-2, maybe 3 - instead of giving that pick up for a guy we will then need to sign for pretty decent $. Something people always seem to forget on these trades - the HUGE benefit of draft picks is the cost control for a few years; that's the only way to afford these huge QB contracts and keeping your own key position guys (OT, DL/Edge, CB/WR etc).
It's the same reason you have to be careful spending too much draft capital/cap $ on the less impactful positions, unless you have a true difference maker there (RB, TE/FB, interior OL, S and off ball LB)
Good post and I understand the point. But one thing I think people need to start to look at is that there isn’t a single move at pass catcher short of a Higgins trade that would take us out of the premium draft pick at WR discussion. We can trade for Sutton and draft Zay Flowers in the first and that wouldn’t be remotely close to overkill. The cupboard is that bare. We have Hodgins, who I believe is only under contract through this year and Wan’Dale who is coming off an ACL and probably needs to be looked at as a slot only when discussing team building. There’s multiple markets and potentially multiple draft classes needed to build this out.
It’s not either or when discussing a trade/signing or high draft pick at the position. It extends to tight end too, they just need multiple pass catchers in both the short and long term.
Whenever I hear about the necessity of a championship team having elite wide receivers, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think of the receivers they had on their four playoff runs that ended in Super Bowl wins.
Parcells' receivers: Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey, Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson, Stephen Baker (Touchdown Maker), Mark Ingram, Odessa Turner. Other names that are not familiar to me.
Coughlin's receivers: Plaxico, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, David Tyree, Domenik Hixon, Sinorice Moss, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Mario Manningham. I have left out the most obscure receivers.
Nicks and Manningham and Steve Smith made some receptions worthy of an elite receiver, but all were out of football three years later.
I wonder which brings the most improvement to a quarterback's passing: an elite receiver or two more seconds in the pocket?
Whenever I hear about the necessity of a championship team having elite wide receivers, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think of the receivers they had on their four playoff runs that ended in Super Bowl wins.
Parcells' receivers: Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey, Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson, Stephen Baker (Touchdown Maker), Mark Ingram, Odessa Turner. Other names that are not familiar to me.
Coughlin's receivers: Plaxico, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, David Tyree, Domenik Hixon, Sinorice Moss, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Mario Manningham. I have left out the most obscure receivers.
Nicks and Manningham and Steve Smith made some receptions worthy of an elite receiver, but all were out of football three years later.
I wonder which brings the most improvement to a quarterback's passing: an elite receiver or two more seconds in the pocket?
why not attempt to improve both? they have 11 picks and cap room so they can improve more than 1 spot this offseason. they improved virtually every position group on the team last offseason with mostly minimum salary players.
nicks and cruz were absolutely elite WRs when the nyg won the 2nd super bowl - and that allowed them to beat a lot of good teams despite a mediocre OL and the least productive running game in football.
Good size for sure, but he's never been an explosive/quick player.
Good size for sure, but he's never been an explosive/quick player.
he was pre knee injury. he was a 4.4 guy and his 3 cone was just as fast as jsn even 20 pounds heavier. he was one of the most explosive receivers in the league in his pro bowl year pre-acl.
Sutton much better than KG. I would do it for a 4th. Salary reasonable. He gets some separation, not just a size guy. Sorta like a bigger ju ju smith shuster.
I know many people want to trade up in the first round for a WR or trade a day one or two pick for a veteran WR, but it's a mistake.
the salary is pretty reasonable though so if the trade cost is reasonable i'd consider him along with hopkins. both of them are kind of like randy moss oakland, they could be done or they could be covered in the stink of bad organizations burning through head coaches.
I know many people want to trade up in the first round for a WR or trade a day one or two pick for a veteran WR, but it's a mistake.
doesn't that entirely depend on the trade? do you think the browns regret getting cooper for a song last year? or the eagles ajb?
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Torn ACL in 2020. His yards were up last season over 2021, but still less than pre injury. He also has a $14M salary.
I know many people want to trade up in the first round for a WR or trade a day one or two pick for a veteran WR, but it's a mistake.
doesn't that entirely depend on the trade? do you think the browns regret getting cooper for a song last year? or the eagles ajb?
Amari Cooper and A.J. Brown are widely regarded as superb, even before the trade. Sutton has been inconsistent. He's had one pretty good year, and I get it, he got hurt in the middle. But despite the great 3-cone at the combine, it's one where you wondering why he doesn't get more consistent separation between the lines. Doesn't seem to show up on the field.
I don't think he's the worst suggestion, but I'm more inclined to keep the draft ammo for guys that don't have the injury and miles on them and will be on rookie deals. Way better suggestion than Allen Robinson or Adam Thielen, but still prefer to go the young player route.
+1
agreed signed me up for Juedy as well. He can be our Devont Smith
Next year you might be in a position for a big time acquisition ala Diggs to Buff.
Says he wants to go somewhere where he is appreciated. That screams wants more money.
the salary is pretty reasonable though so if the trade cost is reasonable i'd consider him along with hopkins. both of them are kind of like randy moss oakland, they could be done or they could be covered in the stink of bad organizations burning through head coaches.
If its an ACL tear what we have seen is guys generally return after a year but aren't quite as explosive until year 2. Most of the younger guys seem to get their explosion back year 2. Saquon as a prime example.
Sutton has potential as an intriguing option depending on the type of WR Schoen/Daboll want fot this offense as a complement to DJs skillset.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
If he costs less than a 1.... He may not have the upside of Hopkins as Hopkins is a beast when healthy but the age factor makes him a lower risk.
The trade market is going to have a number of WR options and flavors for the Giants to choose from with varying price tags. There may be a surprise or two that could pop up too. Michael Pittman, Adams? Aiyuk...
If he's traded pre 6/1 there is a -16M cap hit. His dead cap hit is 31M and his cap hit is only 15M. So they lose money.
If he's traded post 6/1 they will save 7M this year, but have a 23M dead cap hit next year.
Link - ( New Window )
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
This is exactly correct. I’m not sayid trade for Sutton, necessarily but BBI repeats the same stuff for ANY player that may be available. “We aren’t one player away”. Well, isn’t the idea to add as many good players as they can? There are many avenues to adding good players. Throwing darts at draft picks is only one way.
Giants fans love to put the cart before the horse. Always dreaming of building some kind of decade long dynasty through the draft. Maybe we should focus on winning the division and a couple rounds of playoff games before we start worrying about dynasties?
Yeah dead cap is not favorable but it still wouldnt be greater than his salary if he remained on the team. If the Raiders think they need another QB and dont plan to trade for a vet, teams usually don't expect a guy whos drafted to be ready to compete for a championship until year 2 or 3. Adams is on the back half of his prime. If they get a 1 + a bit more for him that might be enough.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
what's also funny is that many appear to think you can just draft a full wide receiver room.
last year entering camp the top 4 were clearly golladay, toney, shepard, robinson. those were the roster locks.
colin johnson and david sills made some noise in camp, slayton had a camp so bad they tried to get rid of him but nobody wanted him, richie james was under the radar.
out of that entire list they currently have hodgins healthy. that's it.
the fa class is so bad you could make a case slayton or james is the best they could do there. so something has to give.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
They could lose Wink next year and DJ's contract kind of gives them a 2 year ish window to be really aggressive. How different are they than the 2021 Eagles who got crushed in the playoffs? They traded for a #1 WR, signed a 2nd M2M CB and added depth to the pass rush and became a powerhouse. We have a clear window now. Go for it!
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If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
How exactly are you putting all of your eggs in 1 basket? You are suggesting holding onto your eggs until they break in your hands. Go get Jones a high end WR.
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If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
i dont think anyone is advocating putting all eggs in the wr basket, but i would say it's the position group that needs the most eggs of any on the roster.
i think that translates to at least:
1 multi-year starter level vet
1 top 100 draft pick
1 day 3 pick
1 cheaper vet (this could be bringing back 1 or 2 of james/slayton/shepard if cheap enough)
that would put 5 healthy bodies on their depth chart, so they could/should double up in at least 1 of those categories.
is there a thinner position group in the entire nfl right now?they are going to need to add 6+ bodies just to run 2 units and not kill hodgins in mini camp presuming wandale and cj are still rehabbing.
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If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
We also need WR's and to score points. We've been solidifying the OL for a decade.
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
what's also funny is that many appear to think you can just draft a full wide receiver room.
last year entering camp the top 4 were clearly golladay, toney, shepard, robinson. those were the roster locks.
colin johnson and david sills made some noise in camp, slayton had a camp so bad they tried to get rid of him but nobody wanted him, richie james was under the radar.
out of that entire list they currently have hodgins healthy. that's it.
the fa class is so bad you could make a case slayton or james is the best they could do there. so something has to give.
None of the top 4 last year will either be on the team or be a great option as ACLs usually take 2 years to get full explosion back.
This unit is by far the thinnest and also a critical impact position.
Now look at the hit rate of draft picks. The hit rate on draft picks after 25 are minimal and the chances that guy becomes a WR1 is miniscule.
Now look at the Giants WR room and tell me we don't have to do major work at the position.
WR hit rate....Chart is a little old, but still telling - ( New Window )
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In comment 16060038 Kmed6000 said:
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If it's for a 3rd or even both 3rds, I think I'd do it. We need to drastically improve the WR room via draft, FA and the trade market. Sutton has a ton of upside and was in a brutally bad offense last year.
You can't put all of your eggs in a WR basket. Well, you can, but it wouldn't be prudent,
The Giants need to solidify their offensive line, and they also need upgrades at all three levels of defense. Don't let the fact that they had a good season against relatively weak opponents (especially Minnesota) fool you. They still have a ton of work to do if they want to be competitive within their division, as well as with the better teams outside of it.
How exactly are you putting all of your eggs in 1 basket? You are suggesting holding onto your eggs until they break in your hands. Go get Jones a high end WR.
Draft, FA, and trade? At what cost? Who aren't you drafting, signing, or trading for in your zeal to totally revamp your WR corps? I'd listen to Meatloaf. "Two outta three ain't bad."
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
I'd also sign a FA WR who will be inexpensive. Thielen, Slayton, someone of that ilk. I'd also draft someone with 1 of our first 3 picks as well.
Leaves us with plenty of money in FA for other positions, leaves us with 11 other draft picks to work with and now we turned a weakness into a strength.
BAM.
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
There are a lot of inaccurate statements here. First off, the link is from a recent comment about Schoen changing his mindset on how he builds from last year. I also remember many interviews leading up to the Eagles game about how the Giants think they are close.
Giants no longer shopping in the bargain bin - ( New Window )
I'd also sign a FA WR who will be inexpensive. Thielen, Slayton, someone of that ilk. I'd also draft someone with 1 of our first 3 picks as well.
Leaves us with plenty of money in FA for other positions, leaves us with 11 other draft picks to work with and now we turned a weakness into a strength.
BAM.
aiyuk is going to cost a 1st plus, but other than that i agree. id very much want to use cap space to be the team that gets an amari cooper-like solid starter for basically cap space and a day 3 (though i'd give up a 3rd for someone like hopkins if necessary).
of fa's i like berrios the most, i think you can get him on an affordable 2 year for less than half of what woods got and he upgrades return game. it's not over resourcing the guy who can place hold for robinson while he rehabs.
2 moves like that give them at least 3 starters you could pencil in an overall upgraded group to have some flexibility with draft. also neither of those routes count toward comp picks so if you give up a day 3, adding guys who dont factor into comp pick formula increase the odds they will get an extra day 3 for slayton/james in 2024.
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
what healthy late 1st or late 3rd is on the roster to elevate?
they have no WRs on the roster other than hodgins, who obviously fits the description of someone who elevated here with jones. he got cut twice last year and nobody claimed him.
entering camp your wr group includes who?
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In comment 16060039 Kmed6000 said:
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
There are a lot of inaccurate statements here. First off, the link is from a recent comment about Schoen changing his mindset on how he builds from last year. I also remember many interviews leading up to the Eagles game about how the Giants think they are close. Giants no longer shopping in the bargain bin - ( New Window )
No. You’re just being selective in trying to reinforce your echo chamber process.
How about that Eagles game? Quite the wake up call. Close is incredibly subjective.
Nobody said about being bargain bin shoppers. Quite the contrary. Giants need to be judicious with use of cap space and picks.
The Giants are much more likely to be a 6-11 team than an 11-6 team even with a “big” WR, whom is not available at all this off-season anyhow.
You find good solid WRs in the draft.
All Schoens comments reinforce is that he was able to make better evaluations of players in season and move off some preconceived notions that maybe were had of what they’d have to do this off-season. He has consistently stated how much work the roster needs wholesale. He is very concerned about the depth on the lines and on defense too.
Eli had Plaxico, Shockey, Tiki (better receiving back than Saquon), Amani, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Odell Beckham. Which of these 7-8 has DJ ever had anything close to in his career?
There is only so much elevating a QB can do with subpar WR's. If you look at the final 8 playoff teams of last year everyone had a significantly better receiving core than the Giants did. The only one that had just 'ok' WRs has the best TE in the entire game who is the rare equal of a #1 WR.
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In comment 16060039 Kmed6000 said:
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
Who is the WR you are trading for? Diggs, Brown, Adams, Hill were all alpha receivers and foci of offenses and put up production at levels that were close to elite for multiple seasons and cost significant draft capital and contract commitments?
Who is that WR this off-season? It’s not Tee Higgins or Courtland Sutton.
I was out on him initially because I preferred Jeudy and felt that type of WR would better fit our offense. However, he does bring something to the table that we don't have. We'd still need more speed and we'd still need a separator. Those guys are more available in this particular draft though.
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In comment 16060096 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16060039 Kmed6000 said:
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The Giants just went to the playoffs and have said the whole way that they think they are close to being a top team. They just signed Jones to a massive contract that essentially gives this group(Jones, Daboll, Schoen) a 2/3 year window to show what they can do. They do not think they are a solid "10" good starters away.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
Total bullshit.
They absolutely have not said that at all. Schoen, Brown and Daboll have not preached “going for it”. They have consistently stated their plan annd restating it ad hominem and building through draft and sizing opportunities for players to add when the fit is right and value optimal to Giants.
The Giants cannot afford to give away lots of draft picks given state of roster and absorb huge cap hits given they have commitments in queue for a franchise LT and DT coming plus some other starters.
Let’s take a deep breath before we “go” and just add some Golladay or Brandon Marshall type mistake at WR. At least with those guys it was just cap space.
Yet for every Kenny Holladay there are a Stefon Diggs, AJ Brown, Devante Adams, Tyreek Hill, Hopkins. They just have to choose wisely as so many other teams did.
Who is the WR you are trading for? Diggs, Brown, Adams, Hill were all alpha receivers and foci of offenses and put up production at levels that were close to elite for multiple seasons and cost significant draft capital and contract commitments?
Who is that WR this off-season? It’s not Tee Higgins or Courtland Sutton.
We don't know who pries free but:
Aiyuk
Pittman Jr
Adams
Or a 'bridge' like Hopkins who was on pace for 1400 yds last year.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Agreed.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
This team can win now and they need to be aggressive and ballsy. Everyone just wants to build through the draft. Draft picks have like a 25% hit rate. Go for it. Go get a high upside WR for Jones and lets fuckin go.
I don't think Sutton is that player. He has air injury history and an expensive contract. No interest.
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This obsession by some here with trading draft picks for mediocre or declining players and absorbing massive cap hits is mind boggling to me.
Agreed.
is it really more mind boggling than looking at this depth chart and thinking 'all good, just need some cheap young guys'?
trades off the table, how are you upgrading or even replacing the 3000+ snaps at WR currently vacated from last year? hodgins is literally the only healthy receiver they have right now.
Some other points:
(1) This draft is also loaded with WRs.
(2) This team has a ton of holes at other position groups, including C, LB, and CB.
(3) We need to extend Lawrence and possibly resign Love.
(4) We can resign Slayton.
I'm not averse to trading a day three pick for a veteran WR, but would not trade a day one or two pick for one, or trade up in the first round for one.
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How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
what healthy late 1st or late 3rd is on the roster to elevate?
they have no WRs on the roster other than hodgins, who obviously fits the description of someone who elevated here with jones. he got cut twice last year and nobody claimed him.
entering camp your wr group includes who?
I want to draft a WR...two, depending on how things shake out. One relatively high, 1st or 2nd round; one mid-to-late, trusting in my scouts to earn their paychecks (and that goes with UDFA's, too}. I may not be able to find a "unicorn," a prototypical "X," but I'd be more than happy with two legit "Z's" from this draft.
I might even look to draft a TE, since the class is stacked, and although I'm pretty high on Bellinger, I like the idea of adding strength to strength.
I'd also look to sign a UFA WR, with the caveat that my first priority in free agency would be defense - D-Line, LB, DB's.
What I wouldn't do is sacrifice draft capital on a WR prior to the draft; certainly not a Day 2 pick. I'd want to use that capital to build a more complete team, one that's strong on both sides of the ball and is built for the long haul (unintentional rhyme).
The Giants are not in a win-now mode. I'm sorry, but they're just not. They don't have the talent to compete with the top teams in their division, let alone the rest of the league. A football team has to be more than just a QB and a stellar cast of WR's. As great as the need is to give Jones better weapons, in my view the need to make the Giants a better overall team should take precedence.
I don’t think we should just casually chalk up attention to “public sentiment” and ignore folks that follow college football and the draft.
That’s totally false. This is a deep and stacked WR group. You will see lot of production in this class 5 yrs from now. People are getting numb because they see the WR classes deeper year over year and are slathering over a generational receiver in Harrison next year that isnt in this years class and overreacting to Wilson and Olave last season and leveling those expectations out of the gate on this group.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
Texans overpaid for a declining Woods because they are a dumpster fire last half decade and need veteran support. They are trying to get rid of Cooks and his bad attitude and bad contract they gave him in first place.
Some folks keep seemingly want us to accept and emulate fairly consistently rundown and questionably managed franchises like the Jags, Browns, Cards, Texans in these “market” arguments. I want us to be far away from that. These are teams that shop hungry and run themselves stupid. They’re the reason NFL enforces parity so they get lucky now and then.
I'm not saying that the Giants should go on a spending spree at the position but I can almost guarantee you they will make at least 1 move before the draft that looks gross on the surface.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
6 wide receivers went top 18 last year and it wasn't even that great of a year at the position. what happens if nolan smith or joey porter is the best player available on the clock? another year of sills starting game 1?
i think there's a lot of eyes wide shut on how bad this fa wr class is (slayton likely being one of the best is case in point). i'd imagine he'll get more than the 10m guaranteed robert woods just got off a worse season in every statistical measure and 5 years older. richie james too possibly since most of that applies to him too. unless either comes in way under that it's a hard pass and there literally arent any wr's in fa who played better than they did last year except meyers who is going to get paid a lot more than that.
by contrast there are a lot of multi-year starters at ilb, dl, and even cb/fs available in fa.
Some other points:
(1) This draft is also loaded with WRs.
(2) This team has a ton of holes at other position groups, including C, LB, and CB.
(3) We need to extend Lawrence and possibly resign Love.
(4) We can resign Slayton.
I'm not averse to trading a day three pick for a veteran WR, but would not trade a day one or two pick for one, or trade up in the first round for one.
No day 1 OR day 2 pick? Then the guy we get back is simply not going to be that good and our WR room is practically empty right now.
Not waiting for a rookie WR to be some sort of savior next year either.
6 wide receivers went top 18 last year and it wasn't even that great of a year at the position. what happens if nolan smith or joey porter is the best player available on the clock? another year of sills starting game 1?
i think there's a lot of eyes wide shut on how bad this fa wr class is (slayton likely being one of the best is case in point). i'd imagine he'll get more than the 10m guaranteed robert woods just got off a worse season in every statistical measure and 5 years older. richie james too possibly since most of that applies to him too. unless either comes in way under that it's a hard pass and there literally arent any wr's in fa who played better than they did last year except meyers who is going to get paid a lot more than that.
by contrast there are a lot of multi-year starters at ilb, dl, and even cb/fs available in fa.
Unless someone thinks Jacoby has a pretty decent amount of untapped potential, the FA class is about as barren as it gets.
I'm not saying that the Giants should go on a spending spree at the position but I can almost guarantee you they will make at least 1 move before the draft that looks gross on the surface.
I’ll bet against you on that.
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robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
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#AZCardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins admitted on @PatMcAfeeShow that he’s “been hearing a lot of trade talks.” On that subject, my understanding is if a trade did happen, he’d be flexible on the last two years of his contract – rather than shoot for a top-of-the-market deal.
his current deal is 2 years 34m, $0 guaranteed - which is probably the best low risk non-rookie contract of any player with a legitimate case to being considered a WR1 in the entire NFL right now.
They went out and got KG who at the time was in theory the best available FA WR on the market who when healthy DID show #1 WR traits and production. Then spent a 1st on Toney and spent 14M on Rudolph as out complement to Engram.
How much more so after a 9.5 win season and a playoff win with less on each side of the ball talent wise with the Coach of the year in Brian Daboll and a bonafide great DC with a track record to match AND some cap space and a ton more in 2024 to hedge against.....will they not also be just as aggressive this year and trying to take the next step???
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Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
It's a bad idea because he has a $19.5M salary and a long injury history. Again, everybody knows we need WRs, which only increases the price. Don't shop hungry.
It's ok if you disagree with me here but I'm just curious what the alternatives are? You're either trading for a WR, overpaying in the 15 AAV range for the top of the market on a WR2/3 or overpaying for a fading vet/underachieving 2nd contract in the 5-10 AAV range. Unless you think they're drafting 3+ WRs and having all or most of them active on game day. Nevermind the poor strategy of entering the draft absolutely NEEDING a WR with your first pick.
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In comment 16060187 allstarjim said:
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Your plan is to trade for a 31 year old receiver and pay him over $20M plus for what will be very likely serious declining performance very shortly, and to sacrifice likely what would cost a 1st, or your very generous assumption of a 2nd round pick acquisition cost.
That plan blows chunks.
All those guys Eli had were free agent signees and draft picks.
You don't spend premium draft picks on 30+ year old receivers and then pay premium dollars. That's crazy.
There's more than one way to build a winner. You can sign JJSS for less money. You can sign OBJ for less money, or Jakobi Meyers for less money. You can draft a couple of guys and not have to pay them. Put the money in the defense and on the OL.
Hopkins clock as a useful NFL player is ticking louder and louder.
Re:Hopkins. If he doesn't cost a #1 and serves as a bridge WR until a high draft pick or 2 take over, how exactly is that a bad idea? The guy was on pace for like 1400yds last year and clearly still has it!
It's a bad idea because he has a $19.5M salary and a long injury history. Again, everybody knows we need WRs, which only increases the price. Don't shop hungry.
Tlin this case, the potential benefit greatly outweighs the risk of not taking the swing at all.
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In comment 16060192 Eric on Li said:
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robert woods just got 10m guaranteed and hopkins outproduced him in half as many games.
just last year christian kirk got 37m gtd, allen robinson 30m, russell gage 20m, marquez valdez scantling 15m, zay jones 14m, cedrick wilson 12m, dj chark 10m.
at TE cj uzomah got 15m guaranteed, tyler conklin got 10m, gerald everett got 8m, evan engram got 8m, austin hooper got 6m.
all of those numbers are just the GUARANTEED $.
sutton comes with 13.5m guaranteed this year only as salary, could be cut for $0 dead money next year.
trades are a lot less cap risky than giving UFAs guaranteed money. guaranteed money is what creates dead cap in the future.
trades may cost a little more cap room in the present but id personally rather have the future flexibility because that's when thomas and lawrence are going to start costing more. adding a hopkins or sutton now is a 1-2 year bandaid to give the team time to find more cost controlled young talent like hodgins/robinson. then they can cut bait without dead money in 12-24 months.
We are going to have to disagree given the robust debate and watch what Schoen does this coming week or so. I just don’t see it happening and I simply don’t agree it’s the right play. I’m always willing to eat crow if something works out but I’m highly skeptical on a play for Hopkins even with a 3rd given he will want guaranteed money reworked into his deal for next two years.
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Ian Rapoport @RapSheet
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#AZCardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins admitted on @PatMcAfeeShow that he’s “been hearing a lot of trade talks.” On that subject, my understanding is if a trade did happen, he’d be flexible on the last two years of his contract – rather than shoot for a top-of-the-market deal.
his current deal is 2 years 34m, $0 guaranteed - which is probably the best low risk non-rookie contract of any player with a legitimate case to being considered a WR1 in the entire NFL right now.
He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
They went out and got KG who at the time was in theory the best available FA WR on the market who when healthy DID show #1 WR traits and production. Then spent a 1st on Toney and spent 14M on Rudolph as out complement to Engram.
How much more so after a 9.5 win season and a playoff win with less on each side of the ball talent wise with the Coach of the year in Brian Daboll and a bonafide great DC with a track record to match AND some cap space and a ton more in 2024 to hedge against.....will they not also be just as aggressive this year and trying to take the next step???
There’s an entirely new front office, scouting staff and coaching staff. You are using the “organization” precedent very loosely here.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Here you go. Looks pretty lengthy to me.
Link - ( New Window )
2021 was the only year where injuries cost him games.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
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long injury history? In his first 8 seasons he didn't miss a game and last year was suspended. Where is this long injury history lol
Here you go. Looks pretty lengthy to me. Link - ( New Window )
Its football... that list is not major injuries that have robbed him of his ability like KG for instance.
The reality is that we're not building this thing entirely through the draft in 1 offseason so at a minimum we'll be shopping for a couple of stop gaps. And at the WR position, they're not going to be dirt cheap.
2021 was the only year where injuries cost him games.
At his age, and with his contract, it's cumulatively too much IMO. Same for Sutton, and his ACL tear was in September 2020 IIRC.
He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
your twisting what rapoport reported. none of us know what his priorities are or how strong his market is. what we know is the cardinals owner came out and said they are moving on from him and he's under contract under market so they are unlikely going to cut him - which means it's a situation that's possibly exploitable not unlike the cowboys/cooper last year. especially after the ped suspension (which also voided his ntc). the chiefs, giants, and patriots were the rumored teams at the combine per a cardinals beat reporter. the pats just got his former coach BOB so that makes sense. chiefs are a little harder to see happening because they dont have a lot of cap room.
whoever trades for him likely converts some of his salary this year into bonus money to lower his cap # but how robust his market is remains to be seen. it's not unlike bradberry last year where teams were willing to trade for him but not willing to meet his contract demands, so he ended up playing for less money than a trade. giving up a 3rd for the existing contract is imo a no-brainer and i could live with a conditional pick in 2024 depending on whether or not the nyg keep him beyond 2023.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
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has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
The Giants do not have a "window now." That is wishful thinking. This team has a ton of holes, including journeymen backups and unproven commodities except for Thomas on the OL, and real needs at LB and CB.
I vote for none of your options. People are deluding themselves if they think Schoen is going to trade a first for a veteran WR, especially when one of Addison, JSN, Flowers, or Johnston will be available at #25. I don't see him trading a second or third for one either.
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I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
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In comment 16060279 AcesUp said:
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I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
i think 1 of the key parts of this offense is players not being 1 dimensional. slayton and hodgins both spent a good amount of time in the slot, not just james.
hardman is interesting since he can help on ST (which schoen commented on wanting to improve) and knows kafka. he would be an upgrade on slayton and james, kind of a blend of the 2 of them, so depending on cost i could see that.
berrios and mckenzie are 2 names i like at a cheaper end to replace james. but guys like hopkins and sutton are big enough upgrades on slayton i think they are worth it if the trade cost is reasonable.
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He’s going to demand it become guaranteed though Eric. That’s the rub. He’s saying he’ll be flexible in working the cap hit out with years added on. He’s not saying he’ll just accept wherever he’s traded.
your twisting what rapoport reported. none of us know what his priorities are or how strong his market is. what we know is the cardinals owner came out and said they are moving on from him and he's under contract under market so they are unlikely going to cut him - which means it's a situation that's possibly exploitable not unlike the cowboys/cooper last year. especially after the ped suspension (which also voided his ntc). the chiefs, giants, and patriots were the rumored teams at the combine per a cardinals beat reporter. the pats just got his former coach BOB so that makes sense. chiefs are a little harder to see happening because they dont have a lot of cap room.
whoever trades for him likely converts some of his salary this year into bonus money to lower his cap # but how robust his market is remains to be seen. it's not unlike bradberry last year where teams were willing to trade for him but not willing to meet his contract demands, so he ended up playing for less money than a trade. giving up a 3rd for the existing contract is imo a no-brainer and i could live with a conditional pick in 2024 depending on whether or not the nyg keep him beyond 2023.
Ok. They can have a 7th round pick.
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How about expecting your expensive QB to elevate some of the lesser talented WR's he's "burdened" with? Eli had one of his best seasons with a late 1st round pick, a late 3rd round pick, a UDFA, and UDFA TE. Jones ought to be able to do the same. Hell, look what he did with Hodgins.
Eli had Plaxico, Shockey, Tiki (better receiving back than Saquon), Amani, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Odell Beckham. Which of these 7-8 has DJ ever had anything close to in his career?
There is only so much elevating a QB can do with subpar WR's. If you look at the final 8 playoff teams of last year everyone had a significantly better receiving core than the Giants did. The only one that had just 'ok' WRs has the best TE in the entire game who is the rare equal of a #1 WR.
Now how well did any of those guys do without Eli?
i think we need to start from the place of they didnt win deep nearly enough last year. slayton as the best deep threat still only had 2 tds, and the one against jax may have actually been a drop. the challenge for the nyg fo is that there's no deep threat in UFA better than slayton.
the reason slayton isnt more of a consideration to return is that his limitations (specifically dropping easy ones when he had plenty of seperation) held them back and almost cost them a few games (wild card and first wash game included). swapping slayton with someone like sutton or hopkins in addition to drafting a top 100 WR would be a significant upgrade if trade costs are reasonable.
james was very good at his role so i wouldn't have as big of an issue bringing him back i just expect he'll cost more than someone like berrios who can do that role similarly.
i dont think it's out of the question that slayton gets paid like mvs this year (10m aav) or james gets paid similarly to zay jones/robert woods (7-9m aav). im sure thats what their agents are looking for.
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In comment 16060264 AcidTest said:
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has a long injury history before he even arrived here. Gettleman simply bid against himself, which he often did in FA. See Solder, Omameh, Steward, Ogletree, and Price. Price is in fact a perfect example of the dangers of shopping hungry.
Toney and Rudolph were just two more DG mistakes, although my recollection is that Toney was a Judge pick and that DG wanted Darrisaw. But both players had injury histories. Rudolph was also an aging veteran.
Good teams don't trade for aging, expensive, injured players at all, let alone part with day one or two draft picks to do so. The scouts found Hodgins. It's their responsibility to find someone similar in FA and a #1 in the draft who will be on a rookie contract.
Schoen has also stressed the importance of building through the draft, and resigning the players already "in the building."
Building organically or solely through the draft usually has a longer timeline and more unknown and therefore a higher risk factor.
Giants have a window now and need to strike. Is it a #1 younger guy like Aiyuk or Pittman who likely costs a #1? Or a bridge or a bit higher risk guy that costs a #2? Or do you gamble on probably the ONLY FA out there in Jakoby Myer who could have some untapped potential in a better system with a better QB to vecome a decnt or better WR1? Its probably going to be one of those 3 options.
The Giants do not have a "window now." That is wishful thinking. This team has a ton of holes, including journeymen backups and unproven commodities except for Thomas on the OL, and real needs at LB and CB.
I vote for none of your options. People are deluding themselves if they think Schoen is going to trade a first for a veteran WR, especially when one of Addison, JSN, Flowers, or Johnston will be available at #25. I don't see him trading a second or third for one either.
Acid personally I think it will be a 'double dip' both in FA/Trade market and the draft. The draft is a much more unknown commidity than the vet established WR . The draft if you guess right on the talent, guess right on if he is injury prone or not and then after all that if he has a relatively short learning curve.
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In comment 16060285 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16060279 AcesUp said:
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I personally would like them to attack the sub 10 AAV UFA market on two pass catchers to set a floor at the position. The same way they attacked the OL last year when we were in a similar situation.
the best 2 sub 10m AAV receivers are probably james and slayton. we've seen that floor and it's a hard pass from me to spend 10m+ in combined AAV to reunite it.
I kind of agree. I'd try to focus on one dimensional guys that bring something we're lacking that might have a higher ceiling. Chark, Mecole and Campbell for speed with Chark being the preference, although I'm worried he gets into the 10-12 range. I'd also pivot to the move TE market since WR is baren. Gesicki on the high end if you can get him on the Engram deal from last year or Irv Smith Jr on the cheap. Supplement those guys by focusing on more complete WRs in the draft.
i think 1 of the key parts of this offense is players not being 1 dimensional. slayton and hodgins both spent a good amount of time in the slot, not just james.
hardman is interesting since he can help on ST (which schoen commented on wanting to improve) and knows kafka. he would be an upgrade on slayton and james, kind of a blend of the 2 of them, so depending on cost i could see that.
berrios and mckenzie are 2 names i like at a cheaper end to replace james. but guys like hopkins and sutton are big enough upgrades on slayton i think they are worth it if the trade cost is reasonable.
Solid perspective.
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
pretty much agree all around.
1 hidden cost of the UFA market is that you are possibly canceling out a day 3 pick comp. if slayton gets paid similar to engram, that could be a 5th round comp pick in 2024. so resigning him or signing someone at a similar price level (hardman) that cancels him out isn't "free".
so if sutton costs pick #100 but saves you from having to give out guaranteed $ in UFA that also costs you pick #175 in 2024, the value spread isnt as different as it seems.
signing golladay not only cost the giants $, he cancelled out a dalvin tomlinson 4th round comp pick in the 2022 draft. that would have been a higher pick than the browns gave up for amari cooper. or they could have used the pick to draft khalil shakur or kyle phillips (both 5th rounders).
The only two strategies I'm against at WR are: 1) Doing nothing - I don't think it's even realistic when looking at our depth chart. Plus, we did not go through the effort of extending DJ with a low year 1 hit to do nothing about his pass catchers this year outside of a premium rookie. 2) Shopping at the very top of the second contract UFA WR market for guys that don't really bring an elite skillset to the table (the DG method). Everything in between should be on the table for the Giants though.
Very fair take Aces. I would think if they spend a 2 or a 1 they will be highly confident on what they are bringing in including the risks involved.
Personally I think as opposed to KG who from the get go showed he was extremely injury prone in Detroit a guy like Hopkins has been quite durable throughout his career. I think he would be worth the risk personally even at a low 2 pick or even noreso if he is a 3. Sutton to me has quite a bit of untapped potential and should make a full recovery from the injury. Definitely not interested if they ask for a 1 but a 2 or less and Im quite intrigued.
It's the same reason you have to be careful spending too much draft capital/cap $ on the less impactful positions, unless you have a true difference maker there (RB, TE/FB, interior OL, S and off ball LB)
It’s not either or when discussing a trade/signing or high draft pick at the position. It extends to tight end too, they just need multiple pass catchers in both the short and long term.
Parcells' receivers: Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey, Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson, Stephen Baker (Touchdown Maker), Mark Ingram, Odessa Turner. Other names that are not familiar to me.
Coughlin's receivers: Plaxico, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, David Tyree, Domenik Hixon, Sinorice Moss, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Mario Manningham. I have left out the most obscure receivers.
Nicks and Manningham and Steve Smith made some receptions worthy of an elite receiver, but all were out of football three years later.
I wonder which brings the most improvement to a quarterback's passing: an elite receiver or two more seconds in the pocket?
Parcells' receivers: Lionel Manuel, Phil McConkey, Bobby Johnson, Stacy Robinson, Stephen Baker (Touchdown Maker), Mark Ingram, Odessa Turner. Other names that are not familiar to me.
Coughlin's receivers: Plaxico, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, David Tyree, Domenik Hixon, Sinorice Moss, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Mario Manningham. I have left out the most obscure receivers.
Nicks and Manningham and Steve Smith made some receptions worthy of an elite receiver, but all were out of football three years later.
I wonder which brings the most improvement to a quarterback's passing: an elite receiver or two more seconds in the pocket?
why not attempt to improve both? they have 11 picks and cap room so they can improve more than 1 spot this offseason. they improved virtually every position group on the team last offseason with mostly minimum salary players.
nicks and cruz were absolutely elite WRs when the nyg won the 2nd super bowl - and that allowed them to beat a lot of good teams despite a mediocre OL and the least productive running game in football.