for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

the real case for mecole hardman (other thread is broken)

Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 1:37 pm
not necessarily saying he'd be my top target of all the wrs rumored available in both trade/fa, but in a year where there aren't many options there's a lot to like about him depending on where his price comes in. pff projects 3 years 21m with 13m guaranteed, spotrac projects more at 4x40m.

so what's there to like? he's kind of a combination of the best of richie james mixed with darius slayton's explosiveness. for his career his 14 ypc is close to that of slayton's, but his 70% catch rate (which has trended up each season) and very strong drop rate (which is under 3% over the past 2 years) are a lot closer to the way richie james played. he's also probably a better return guy than james was.

he's also pretty young at 25 years old and has experience with kafka from KC.

he's played roughly 50% in the slot and 50% outside over his career so he will not only come in knowing some of the offense but has the flexibility to line up wherever they need him.

despite being smaller he's even been pretty good on contested catches over his career with a 41% contested catch rate (9 catches on 22 contested targets).

athletically he compares pretty favorably with wan'dale and as mentioned he has the flex to play some slot while wandale is rehabbing but also move outside some after robinson gets back.



i think the spotrac valuation is a little rich but at the pff number he'd make a lot of sense, and i think that one is probably more likely after seeing where meyers came in this am.
The Giants OC knows him very well  
ZogZerg : 3/14/2023 1:39 pm : link
If he thought he was the goods, I'm sure the Giants will be interested.
No  
eric2425ny : 3/14/2023 1:44 pm : link
He’s inconsistent, nicked up a lot, and will want more than he’s worth. He’s a fast, but slightly slower version of Tyreek Hill. Except he doesn’t run great routes, doesn’t have great hands, fumbles randomly, and doesn’t cut or accelerate like Hill.
RE: The Giants OC knows him very well  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 1:44 pm : link
In comment 16063374 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
If he thought he was the goods, I'm sure the Giants will be interested.


agreed. their current depth chart pretty much guarantees they've got stuff working at wr we havent seen surface yet, not sure if this will be it but it seems like probably the best they can do in UFA.
RE: No  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 1:46 pm : link
In comment 16063384 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
He’s inconsistent, nicked up a lot, and will want more than he’s worth. He’s a fast, but slightly slower version of Tyreek Hill. Except he doesn’t run great routes, doesn’t have great hands, fumbles randomly, and doesn’t cut or accelerate like Hill.


fair point, let's cross every wr who doesn't cut or accelerate like hill off the list.

now the new list of viable additions is:

tyreek hill
(end of list)
I really loved him as a draft prospect  
SirYesSir : 3/14/2023 1:48 pm : link
so I'm interested, but the fact he was so underwhelming in the Chiefs offense, even after Hill left, is concerning. If they really liked him they wouldn't have needed to go after Toney, right?

And they aren't bringing him back. Strikes me as a guy with immense talent but some practice or effort issue holding him back.
RE: RE: No  
eric2425ny : 3/14/2023 1:49 pm : link
In comment 16063387 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16063384 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


He’s inconsistent, nicked up a lot, and will want more than he’s worth. He’s a fast, but slightly slower version of Tyreek Hill. Except he doesn’t run great routes, doesn’t have great hands, fumbles randomly, and doesn’t cut or accelerate like Hill.



fair point, let's cross every wr who doesn't cut or accelerate like hill off the list.

now the new list of viable additions is:

tyreek hill
(end of list)


I brought up Hill because when Hill was in legal trouble years ago they touted Hardman as his potential replacement when he was drafted. It’s also a worthwhile comparison because Hardman has that same build and his strength is speed. But he’s just not a very consistent player. I’d rather draft a younger player than overpay one that’s not that great. That’s how you get into cap trouble.
RE: I really loved him as a draft prospect  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 1:51 pm : link
In comment 16063391 SirYesSir said:
Quote:
so I'm interested, but the fact he was so underwhelming in the Chiefs offense, even after Hill left, is concerning. If they really liked him they wouldn't have needed to go after Toney, right?

And they aren't bringing him back. Strikes me as a guy with immense talent but some practice or effort issue holding him back.


he got hurt early last year but before that was starting to play a more prominent role.

trading for toney was likely more of a long term pick up knowing the only 2 WRs they had under contract beyond 2022 were MVS (who underwhelmed) and Skyy Moore (who also probably underwhelmed). plus jjss and hardman had been banged up over the year so they needed depth.
RE: RE: No  
allstarjim : 3/14/2023 1:52 pm : link
In comment 16063387 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16063384 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


He’s inconsistent, nicked up a lot, and will want more than he’s worth. He’s a fast, but slightly slower version of Tyreek Hill. Except he doesn’t run great routes, doesn’t have great hands, fumbles randomly, and doesn’t cut or accelerate like Hill.



fair point, let's cross every wr who doesn't cut or accelerate like hill off the list.

now the new list of viable additions is:

tyreek hill
(end of list)


Hasn't he been discussed like three times in the past week or so?

The problem with Mecole has never been his AA. It's that's all he is, an athlete, not a football player. He basically has no idea what he's doing when he steps between the lines, concerning for someone in the league as long as he has.

I guess you can bet on the AA that you can coach him up, but the fact he has been in the league for 4 years and hasn't yet put it together, it's concerning to me. I think he's missing at least two out of the three in the "smart, tough, dependable" criterion.
I believe he was brought up as a potential target by Go Deep  
Rjanyg : 3/14/2023 1:59 pm : link
You need depth and speed and he may not be a WR1 but he is a good return guy and like I had said in another thread our OC knows him.

If you go look at any highlight videos of Hardman you can actually see the staple WR plays they use for him: jet sweeps, WR screens and deep go routes. He was also used inside and outside.

Injuries, questionable hands, all that can be brought up but keep in mind that you need depth and versatility with WR.

I like the idea of bringing him in and going WR early on day 1 or 2 in the draft.
weird he has no idea what he's doing but he caught 72%  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 1:59 pm : link
of the passes thrown to him the last 2 years and in less than half the season last year caught 4 touchdowns. his 59 receptions in 2021 behind hill would have been most on nyg this past year.
RE: weird he has no idea what he's doing but he caught 72%  
allstarjim : 3/14/2023 2:19 pm : link
In comment 16063413 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
of the passes thrown to him the last 2 years and in less than half the season last year caught 4 touchdowns. his 59 receptions in 2021 behind hill would have been most on nyg this past year.


Yeah but he was playing with Mahomes in Andy Reid's offense. A guy like him should've been blowing it up. All I'm saying is, I've seen the guy screw up a lot or routes and make bone-headed decisions.

If they sign him, then they believe he can coach him up, I'll be hopeful they are right. In the smart, tough, dependable, I think there's different kinds of all three of those categories. For dependable, I would say one definition might be your accountability to your team, coaches, and teammates to show up on time and practice hard, and do the requisite film study and so forth.

But dependable also has an on-the-field meaning, and that's where I think Hardman struggles...do you know instantly the right route you should run based on the leverage of the corner and where the safety help is? Are you going to be in that spot that the QB is expecting you to be? I think Mecole needs to get a lot better in the finer points of the position. To me, he's still an athlete playing football. And he's had some successes, because he's an incredible athlete and can still run past people. But he is still a project.
What $$$ numbers are they predicting  
section125 : 3/14/2023 2:21 pm : link
for him..?
RE: RE: weird he has no idea what he's doing but he caught 72%  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 2:28 pm : link
In comment 16063446 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16063413 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


of the passes thrown to him the last 2 years and in less than half the season last year caught 4 touchdowns. his 59 receptions in 2021 behind hill would have been most on nyg this past year.



Yeah but he was playing with Mahomes in Andy Reid's offense. A guy like him should've been blowing it up. All I'm saying is, I've seen the guy screw up a lot or routes and make bone-headed decisions.

If they sign him, then they believe he can coach him up, I'll be hopeful they are right. In the smart, tough, dependable, I think there's different kinds of all three of those categories. For dependable, I would say one definition might be your accountability to your team, coaches, and teammates to show up on time and practice hard, and do the requisite film study and so forth.

But dependable also has an on-the-field meaning, and that's where I think Hardman struggles...do you know instantly the right route you should run based on the leverage of the corner and where the safety help is? Are you going to be in that spot that the QB is expecting you to be? I think Mecole needs to get a lot better in the finer points of the position. To me, he's still an athlete playing football. And he's had some successes, because he's an incredible athlete and can still run past people. But he is still a project.


last year was the first year he missed games, and it was unlucky in that it was also the first year there were targets up for grabs with hill gone. only 2 fumbles in 4 years, not a lot of drops, good catch rate. again the question isn't if he's the ideal receiver it's if he's the best they can do this offseason. i dont think there's a better fit in UFA.

RE: What $$$ numbers are they predicting  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 2:29 pm : link
In comment 16063450 section125 said:
Quote:
for him..?


pff projects 3x7m (21m total, 12m guaranteed)
spotrac projects 4x10m

i think the meyers deal probably signals the pff projection being closer.

with slayton likely to get something like 5m per year i think hardman at a comparable price is a better buy.
RE: I really loved him as a draft prospect  
SirLoinOfBeef : 3/14/2023 2:39 pm : link
In comment 16063391 SirYesSir said:
Quote:
so I'm interested, but the fact he was so underwhelming in the Chiefs offense, even after Hill left, is concerning. If they really liked him they wouldn't have needed to go after Toney, right?

And they aren't bringing him back. Strikes me as a guy with immense talent but some practice or effort issue holding him back.


If that's the case, then they'll love Toney...
RE: RE: What $$$ numbers are they predicting  
Rjanyg : 3/14/2023 3:12 pm : link
In comment 16063479 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16063450 section125 said:


Quote:


for him..?



pff projects 3x7m (21m total, 12m guaranteed)
spotrac projects 4x10m

i think the meyers deal probably signals the pff projection being closer.

with slayton likely to get something like 5m per year i think hardman at a comparable price is a better buy.


He is a good replacment for Slayton for sure. Again, he brings versatility.

We still have the draft and I expect at least 1 WR if not 2 drafted.

Robinson will be coming off of injury as will Shep. Hardman could start in the slot them move outside once the others are healthy.
RE: RE: RE: What $$$ numbers are they predicting  
Eric on Li : 3/14/2023 3:30 pm : link
In comment 16063692 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 16063479 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 16063450 section125 said:


Quote:


for him..?



pff projects 3x7m (21m total, 12m guaranteed)
spotrac projects 4x10m

i think the meyers deal probably signals the pff projection being closer.

with slayton likely to get something like 5m per year i think hardman at a comparable price is a better buy.



He is a good replacment for Slayton for sure. Again, he brings versatility.

We still have the draft and I expect at least 1 WR if not 2 drafted.

Robinson will be coming off of injury as will Shep. Hardman could start in the slot them move outside once the others are healthy.


exactly. and now with waller (and hodgins) they have some bigger targets, so they could use some more speed. hardman is probably 1 of the few guys left in FA who has more speed than slayton. paris campbell another but he's been a lot more injury prone. as 3rd/4th options he and robinson can run all the same gadgety stuff kc runs with jet sweeps and motion to get uncovered.

Eric on LI  
AG5686 : 3/14/2023 3:34 pm : link
In comment 16063387 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16063384 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


He’s inconsistent, nicked up a lot, and will want more than he’s worth. He’s a fast, but slightly slower version of Tyreek Hill. Except he doesn’t run great routes, doesn’t have great hands, fumbles randomly, and doesn’t cut or accelerate like Hill.



fair point, let's cross every wr who doesn't cut or accelerate like hill off the list.

now the new list of viable additions is:

tyreek hill
(end of list)

Haaaaaaaaaaa
Lots of hyperbole  
RomanWH : 3/14/2023 4:34 pm : link
Hardman's hands:
2019: 1 drop in 41 targets
2020: 8 drops in 62 targets
2021: 2 drops in 83 targets
2022: 1 drop in 34 targets

Compare that to Slayton who has 2, 6, 6, and 7 in the past 4 years.

Hardman's Catch rate vs Slayton:
2019: 63.4% vs 57.1%
2020: 66.1% vs 52.1%
2021: 71.7% vs 44.8%
2022: 73.5% vs 64.8%

Regarding Hardman being used on plays like Jet sweeps or WR screens:

Hardman total rushing attempts:
2019: 4 for 17 yards
2020: 4 for 31 yards
2021: 8 for 46 yards
2022: 4 for 31 yards

I don't get where the idea came from that Hardman was some gadget only player or that he has really bad hands. He had one year of bad drops, he only had a handful of rushing plays per season, and he has improved his catch rate every year he's been in the league.

Hardman spent three seasons in Tyreek Hill's shadow playing a complementary role. This past season he was finally going to be given more looks but they went out and got JuJu and MVS. He was hobbled coming into the season but once he got healthy he started performing:

Week 5 vs LV: 4 for 73 yds
Week 6 vs Buf: 3 for 42 yds and 1 TD
Week 7 vs SF: 4 for 32 yds and 1 TD
Week 8 vs Ten: 6 for 79 and 1 TD

The abdominal injury he suffered at that last game ended his season.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's this all world beating WR. He's a mid tier FA that the Chiefs elected to not bring back. I have no delusions about him being an outstanding player. But given the rest of the less-than-outstanding talent available, I'd bet on Hardman's potential over the other choices.
Even with Hill and Kelce...  
bw in dc : 3/14/2023 5:39 pm : link
in KC together, if Mahomes/Reid thought Hardman could provide more production, they would have certainly exploited it. They are the best passing game duo - QB/HC - in the NFL.

As far as I'm concerned, Hardman has a ceiling and he hit it in KC. I just don't think he brings anything interesting to the table if we added him.
Back to the Corner