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Field Yates
@FieldYates
Darren Waller is under contract for 4 more seasons. Here’s what the Giants owe him:
2023: $11M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2024: $10.525M salary, 200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2025: $11.525M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2026: $13.525M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
which i would guess the nyg bonus day 1 to lower his cap hit this year. really interesting addition. he has had some games where he is borderline uncoverable if he can stay healthy. cap #'s for nyg are 1.275m per year less than the far right column since LV eats their previously paid signing bonus.
Is Waller breaking down? Some guys once they start to get hurt at age 30 plus never really get back their explosion or just become injury prone.
Since the signing bonus is absorbed against Las Vegas's cap we can restructure the entire remaining balance however we feel like assuming Waller agrees.
am usually not a fan of trading day one or two picks for veterans, but this is a great move. As others have noted, Waller is a very credible threat down the seam and is a fantastic pick up. Great trade by Schoen, especially since we apparently got a sixth in return.
My guess is the Giants pivoted to trading for a receiving TE when they couldn't trade for a WR.
Think this opens up their options at WR in the draft too
And this is the consolation. TBH I may still try to pry him away and I might even consider the 2 after rewatching some clips this past year. Second rounders are gold but it's a late 2 and I'm having a hard time envisioning someone coming in and having a bigger impact.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
And proposed to trade Waller (healthy) for Toney I would have been at a dead sprint to make that trade.
He's a little older and off of a season where he missed some games, but the contract is flexible and he can make a massive impact if he returns to form.
RE: RE: Good trade. Some things to be concerned over:
I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
Hmm - good point. No guarantees after this season...
I figured the Giants would want to bolster the TE corps and would look to draft a TE. But TE is hard position to learn. A rookie TE can't necessarily be counted on to contribute right away. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. So with Waller, they have a proven TE, not a rookie, to upgrade the TE room.
They may still draft a TE but now the pressure is off, they can draft a developmental guy with upside on Day 3.
I said, the Giants likely did this after not being able to trade for a WR, and maybe Schultz. They probably also know that Slayton is leaving. And look what happened to the offense after Bellinger got hurt? We need credible receiving threats. Despite his age and injury history, I much prefer this trade than trading a one or two for a WR.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
(as Sy said). What he can bring to the offense is a TON. He's a little older, has had some injury concerns, and they have to massage his salary a bit. But for a very late 3rd? Excellent!!
Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
One great season 3 years ago... ignores previous 90 catch, 1100 yard season.
He has little wear on the tires... he barely played before 2019. He was out of football because of addiction to painkillers but went to rehab and turned his life around.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
I wanted D Washington in the draft for this reason. 12 Personnel is key to getting some easy playcalling. Washington MOVES people in the run game. LT body that runs 4.6 and is 6'7"
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Good point re typical 31 year-old
RE: This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
after this year. On friday his entire salary becomes guarenteed. if ita alreqdy guarenteed are we allowed to convert to a bounus and spread it out over the 4 years and drop his cap number to 3-3.5?
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Good trade. Some things to be concerned over:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Agreed.
Flexibility is a big part of both the offense and defense under Dabes.
NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good trade. Some things to be concerned over:
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Obsessed with age because he's stating a fact? It's something to take into consideration. He's not young anymore, and I think he has the highest per year contract for a TE. You also have to consider his injury history. This is a good deal with plenty of upside for the Giants, but IMO this isn't a slam dunk home run type deal.
thinking, this staff is willing to try things. Should be relatively low risk for us, not sure his cap/salary but Oak eats any bonus amort, and it's only a 3rd (and the later 3rd). Still leaves us good draft capital and provides a receiving threat, on par or better than basically any FA WR.
I'm sure we still draft a WR low, but arguably we don't NEED to in rd1 now. Good job filling holes - let's see what's coming for C/S - not expecting big names/$, but solid lower price guys (which could mean Love, maybe Feliciano coming back and drafting a C, or S).
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
YoY I think you're right about Hill. But Reid's had years where he was in 12 30% of the time. It's a staple he's utilized when he's had the talent.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Sure, ideally, I always want to build with young talent. Not always possible, I know..My concern was more about giving up a 3rd for a guy who was soon to be 31 and coming off injuries (albeit and thankfully not serious ones), than age per se. But as I said a few times on here, I trust Schoen
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think that's a reference to the 6th we already got, in the Toney trade.
for an OC that can perhaps use him like the Chiefs use Kelce. Kafka will be able to get him open and the ball in space. All he needs is to stay healthy and he's gonna get 100+ targets this year.
NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
Overrated by BBI? Sure. A lot of fanatics on this site who overrate our 3rd string left guard. That's what we're here for. You don't like Bennett, that's fine. But you can't say Daniel Bellinger is better than him, especially if you compare the 1 year team totals against each other.
RE: Art Stapleton says we're also getting a 6th round pick:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
taking a TE in draft in Rds 1-5 for future development, but probably kills off any trade for a WR and puts Dalton Schultz possibility to bed.
I disagree with folks who think this doesn't necessitate a WR add in draft still, if anything I think it heightens likelihood they will draft perhaps both WR/TE.
Injury history a concern but for a late third I like the risk. It's a very deep draft in TE so I don't think that would stop them from adding another. They can evaluate him year to year.
They don't need to be a 5k plus pass team and with adding a good WR in the draft and what they have with this addition they can certainly hit 4k plus.
The OL will need to a big step to make this work and I would not be surprised if they look at a IOL early this draft.
RE: RE: This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
We got a 6th for Toney. Think that's what he means.
I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Injury history a concern but for a late third I like the risk. It's a very deep draft in TE so I don't think that would stop them from adding another. They can evaluate him year to year.
I agree this does not take us out on TE in this draft, especially on Day 3. It's a position that sometimes takes an entire rookie contract to develop and Waller is probably only here for 3 of those remaining 4 years - I think we're going to restructure the shit a couple of times and dummy his last year. Also, if we're highlighting 12 and 13 they're going to need a guy that could get some looks.
I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Yup. It's a worthy risk even if just one season, hopefully squeeze two. He has dimensions/skillset that can change an offense as a threat and this way not a ton of pressure on a rookie WR, buys time for Wandale to come back. But he has to stay on the field.
love this move. We now have TIGHT ENDS. 2 TE sets. Jones and Barkley are dual threats. Two TEs that can both catch and block as needed. Two WRs. Good luck stopping a high % passing offense that can rip off chunk plays on the ground with the best of them. It's 30 degrees and windy? No problem.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
Feels a lot like the Plaxico acquisition - they are virtually identical in terms of their size. But Waller is faster. Been waiting for a decade for Waller's skill set. Can't believe Raiders let him go for a late third round compensatory pick. Absolute steal by Schoen.
RE: I want to dry hump the two tight end offense and always have
love this move. We now have TIGHT ENDS. 2 TE sets. Jones and Barkley are dual threats. Two TEs that can both catch and block as needed. Two WRs. Good luck stopping a high % passing offense that can rip off chunk plays on the ground with the best of them. It's 30 degrees and windy? No problem.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
I am very high on having two TE's as a matchup nightmare on slower LBs and smaller DB's so the Giants are thinking this right.
too much to give up for a 30 year old TE. This is also a strong TE draft. Having said that he is a vertical threat. I do think there will be a lot of 2 TE sets.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
8.25 is guaranteed now but on friday the rest of his 2023 salary(2.75) becomes guaranteed. You can convert his salary to a bonus and drop his cap hit to 3-3.5 mil for this year and create 8.25 in dead money after this year.
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
I believe that.
So why did the Raiders trade him? Was this financial?
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017
Maybe that eye injury makes him somewhat gun shy (despite now wearing the shield) and the coaches noticed it. In any event, the Giants now have the ability to go two TEs with two competent TEs.
$11 mill per season??? Money is going away quickly.
(not to you directly, just this post reminded me of others) Remember when the Giants weren't going to be able to build a team because DJ stole all their money?
Pepp farm remembers...
So NYG signed a highly touted LB. TRaded for a highly touted and decently highly paid TE. A decent paid DT. And probably more to come.
a great talent with skills right there with Kelce.
As many have mentioned, there is, however, a serious issue with availability. Can't remember the last time Waller has come close to playing a full season.
..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017
That's where I saw it then.
I'm all for rooting for guys like this....just worried about the age amongst the obvious but the Giants probably looked at all the draftable TEs and thought for that third rounder, this was their best option.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
8.25 is guaranteed now but on friday the rest of his 2023 salary(2.75) becomes guaranteed. You can convert his salary to a bonus and drop his cap hit to 3-3.5 mil for this year and create 8.25 in dead money after this year.
It is still $11 mill this year and nothing after...I think I would wait until mid-season before tweaking his contract to see how he does before guaranteeing anything else.
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
Maybe that eye injury makes him somewhat gun shy (despite now wearing the shield) and the coaches noticed it. In any event, the Giants now have the ability to go two TEs with two competent TEs.
This is going to be nice for SB as well.
RE: Waller just married Kelsey Plum from the Las Vegas Aces (WNBA)
if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
No 6th round pick... it was a misinterpretation of a tweet from a report that we basically traded toney for waller and a 6th... they are not sending a 6 back to the giants in this trade.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
No 6th round pick... it was a misinterpretation of a tweet from a report that we basically traded toney for waller and a 6th... they are not sending a 6 back to the giants in this trade.
Ok thanks.
RE: I want to dry hump the two tight end offense and always have
love this move. We now have TIGHT ENDS. 2 TE sets. Jones and Barkley are dual threats. Two TEs that can both catch and block as needed. Two WRs. Good luck stopping a high % passing offense that can rip off chunk plays on the ground with the best of them. It's 30 degrees and windy? No problem.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
OMG I love this!!! Joe and Dabs are cooking!!! Waller and Bellinger add a couple of more speed guys on outsdie -offense looking potent now!!
if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
And I've got a used Mercedes to sell you. (Not Lewis).
RE: remember waller isn't just a TE - he plays slot and wide
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
Good info there.
Low risk moves on shepard and waller with exceptional upside. Nothing really lost if these guys can't get healthy, and there's no one in the WR or TE market that can do what they do as well without a significant trade.
This offense is gonna be so much better next season.
if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
Agreed, no financial risk. Only in-season injury risk. But we’ve been dealing with that for ages including 22 year old rookies so it is what it is at this point.
And don't forget, Hodgins (and James) are coming back, too. Just need Evan Neal to show improvement. I'm ready to play Week 1 tomorrow!
Not without major improvement from Neal. Remember we also lost Gates and he hasn’t been replaced (yet) so net/net you can say at this stage our line as is is worse.
if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
Agreed, no financial risk. Only in-season injury risk. But we’ve been dealing with that for ages including 22 year old rookies so it is what it is at this point.
Yeah, it’s like we get or draft someone, they tweak whatever at OTAs or Camp and they’re “day to day” and suddenly it’s game 4 or 5 before they make their initial appearance. Uncanny.
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
This is exactly the point. He is a wide receiver with an elite talent ceiling who can play in line tight end. But he is paid like an above average tight end, not an elite wide receiver. Exactly the kind of economic calculus needed for this team to progress in 2023.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
I wanted D Washington in the draft for this reason. 12 Personnel is key to getting some easy playcalling. Washington MOVES people in the run game. LT body that runs 4.6 and is 6'7"
I've thought the most likely outcome was the Giants invest at TE either in first wave UFA or premium draft pick exactly for that reason.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
·
24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Do we have cap space?
uh yes?
KG will free up over 6 mil. You still have a leo and adoree extension (both can and should happen). You have a barkely LTD and a Dex deal. The giants have plenty of money and can free more. money really isnt an issue here and if youre adding someone like jeudy, he is VERY affordable.
Especially with how TE salaries are valued vs WR salaries these days, having a top-notch TE can be a huge advantage. See the Chiefs, 49ers, Eagles, Bills, etc. We've finally got an individual talent who at least has the potential to be part of that conversation.
Maybe that eye injury makes him somewhat gun shy (despite now wearing the shield) and the coaches noticed it. In any event, the Giants now have the ability to go two TEs with two competent TEs.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
This article says there is an opt out clause after this year. Does anyone know is it the teams option or the players option for opt out? I assume it’s the players option.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
This article says there is an opt out clause after this year. Does anyone know is it the teams option or the players option for opt out? I assume it’s the players option.
Good question. The article is unclear. I also assume it's the player's option but I did a little research and didn't see an answer. Of course if he opts out, at his age, he may not do as well as the contract.
And Waller was unstoppable in 2020, especially the latter part of the season.
You could not cover him.
Slowed by injuries the last two years but I still think this is a great deal. Waller plays fast and he is a big, strong dude. Nobody wants to tackle him.
I think we are going to see some Eagle-like TE screens with Mr Waller. I think Daboll and Joe S saw Eagles run over the Giants CBs and DBs and are looking to do the same.
As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
It matches what the team is trying to do by re-signing Jones and Barkley. If you are going to go for it- then go for it. And you go for it not by getting a team's "3rd WR" like bozo DG did getting Philly's WR.
And Waller was unstoppable in 2020, especially the latter part of the season.
You could not cover him.
Slowed by injuries the last two years but I still think this is a great deal. Waller plays fast and he is a big, strong dude. Nobody wants to tackle him.
I think we are going to see some Eagle-like TE screens with Mr Waller. I think Daboll and Joe S saw Eagles run over the Giants CBs and DBs and are looking to do the same.
He was unstoppable for sure. But we're getting the 2023 Darren Waller, not the 2020 version.
Let's put it this way, his fantasy stock plummeted this year. So, while there is upside, we should temper the enthusiasm.
a great talent with skills right there with Kelce.
As many have mentioned, there is, however, a serious issue with availability. Can't remember the last time Waller has come close to playing a full season.
Google can be your friend; last full season was 2020, when he caught 107 passes. Caught 90 the year before...
As others have already said - this really opens things up on the offense; he can line up all over the field, giving the offense a much needed weapon...
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
He is listed at 238 on NFL.com. The Raiders site lists him at 255. So who knows. Injuries wear on the body much more than playing.
As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
Don't we also have Nick Varnett on the roster at 6'5 257??
As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
I doubt this means the end of Cager. Lots of teams carry 3 TE. Cager will still have plenty of opportunities. Especially if Waller continues to show durability issues
don't think this is necessarily the end of Cager. We have no guaranteed money owed to Waller after this year. If Cager blossoms and Waller can't stay healthy, then we can resign the former and cut the latter. And if that happens, then all we did was burn a very late third round pick to see if Waller could recapture his 2020 form. That is a much better option than trading a one or two for Jeudy, Sutton, Aiyuk, etc.
As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
I was alluding to the fact that he was a WR and buried on practice squads until 2019. Injuries are a risk/concern, which is why it only cost us the 100th pick when they were asking for a 2 from the Packers at the last deadline.
I don't think it means the end of Cager, they're probably carrying 4 TEs if they plan on featuring multiple TE looks. He'll have to compete for sure.
As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
I doubt this means the end of Cager. Lots of teams carry 3 TE. Cager will still have plenty of opportunities. Especially if Waller continues to show durability issues
You would have to think that the third tight end would be someone with top blocking skills.
has tweeted his displeasure with the trade (linked above) and Davonte Adams seems disappointed his QB is Jimmy G. and not Rodgers. Gonna be fun to watch noted assclown Josh McDaniels try to maintain order in that locker room.
RE: RE: RE: Waller just married Kelsey Plum from the Las Vegas Aces (WNBA)
Hope they are ok with a long-distance relationship.
At least the WNBA and NFL seasons don't overlap much.
Kelsey could just ask to play for the Liberty LOL…if you’ve seen her you know Waller is winning in the game of life as well as football.
Great trade by Schoen but only concern is Waller’s injury history
Ionescu for Plum?!
Chiming in with the others, I hope he's healthy.
.
Can Kelsey Plum play WR, when she is not playing hoops?
I like this move for Waller, very athletic, would like to see him add a few pounds to that frame.
Isn't this about the same as a Dalton Shultz contract minus the signing bonus and guarantees? But in the Asshat FA thread I thought it was kind of agreed this was too rich for the Giants to spend on a TE? Or did I not get the point?
Not criticizing this move at all. I like the trade! I just don't understand why they wouldn't have spent similar or slightly more (with the bonus) for Shultz who is younger and ascending (assuming he would have signed here).
I know Waller has been very good. Is he clearly above Shultz likely ceiling? Can someone help me grasp how this is a better move than signing Shultz would have been?
Either way, I am really happy we have a TE1. Our TE position is now at least solid, probably going to be a strength.
RE: Art Stapleton says we're also getting a 6th round pick:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think folks are mis-reading this (or I could be): Stapleton is simply referring to the intial consideration for trade of Toney to KC: its compensatory 3rd and a 6th, it's the same 6th as we got for Toney. Art is combining the '22 + '23 consideration
it’s possible we liked Schultz but not at his price. We can’t make players sign. And if he drags his feet, Waller gets traded else where then we get outbid on Schultz, our plans at TE are fucked.
Schoen identified a need, found a good deal and jumped on it. Waiting usually doesn’t work well.
RE: RE: Art Stapleton says we're also getting a 6th round pick:
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
yep, just getting to your post now...late as usual
Isn't this about the same as a Dalton Shultz contract minus the signing bonus and guarantees? But in the Asshat FA thread I thought it was kind of agreed this was too rich for the Giants to spend on a TE? Or did I not get the point?
We don't know where Schultz comes in but he's going to be 2x in guarantees on Waller's 10 at a minimum. Potentially up to 3x if he can get Kittle/Andrews money. That's significant.
Also, the Giants needed an offensive weapon. Not just another TE. While Schultz is a threat as a receiver, he doesn't challenge defenses like Waller does when he's healthy. They're different players and we were really lacking a couple key elements from Waller's game in our skill group.
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
good analysis, not sure I agree with the Wan'Dale part. But for sure it takes some pressure off having to go WR earlier than his and BB's board dictate for their highest rated on their board.
he's over 30 and production hasn't been there since 2019/2020. I don't know how the cap will work on this, but it appears he will be off the books in about 2 or 3 years...same as DJ.
I'm not actually debbie downer on this, just not gonna inhale the koolaid. I hope this leads to a lot of creative schemes 2 TE and 3 TE schemes. It's great that we were able to get DJ at least one weapon before the draft as well.
As for what we got him for, a late 3 I think is a good deal for him.
he's over 30 and production hasn't been there since 2019/2020. I don't know how the cap will work on this, but it appears he will be off the books in about 2 or 3 years...same as DJ.
I'm not actually debbie downer on this, just not gonna inhale the koolaid. I hope this leads to a lot of creative schemes 2 TE and 3 TE schemes. It's great that we were able to get DJ at least one weapon before the draft as well.
As for what we got him for, a late 3 I think is a good deal for him.
He’s off the books in one year if it doesn’t work out. No dead cap hit after 2023. Great deal, trade a literally end of third round pick for a guy with top 5 TE potential and can either keep him for four years or cut him after one if their not happy.
I'd rather save the money for a "just as shiny penny" somewhere else. If the guy can stay healthy, it's win for sure!
I'm neutral on this trade I guess.
I’m kind of on the same page but he can line up all over the field. So this move essentially ensures the big WR everyone wanted who’s way more talented than anything likely to hit the market at WR at a reasonable cost.
Duggan - Why the Giants couldn’t resist Darren Waller’s upside
Waller will allow coach Brian Daboll and offensive coordinator Mike Kafka to tap into their creativity. Kafka took over as the Giants’ offensive coordinator last year after five seasons as part of a Chiefs offensive staff that weaponized Kelce like no tight end in NFL history. Daboll was the Patriots’ tight ends coach from 2013-16 when Rob Gronkowski was in his prime.
He will thrive in a Daboll/Kafka offense.
Again he needs to stay healthy
Schoen surprised me with this trade as I was confident he was going to draft a TE in the deep TE class
No complaints here.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
He will thrive in a Daboll/Kafka offense.
Again he needs to stay healthy
Schoen surprised me with this trade as I was confident he was going to draft a TE in the deep TE class
No complaints here.
Pro bowl player NOW for essentially a 4th rnd pick, less miles on the wheels rehabbing. We could get some serious production the next 3-4 years. Better than having to teach up an unknowen rookie. They needed immediate help. He could also show Bellinger a thing or two.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
This might be one decision I disagree with but I’m not the one holding the blueprints.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story..
This might be one decision I disagree with but I’m not the one holding the blueprints.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
It’s a 3rd rounder, if it doesn’t work out it doesn’t work out. But it has a better likelihood of working out than whoever we would be taking with the pick. There almost no risk here.
Pardon me for asking, but is Waller currently healthy?
Or is he still injured and rehabbing?
If he is still injured, what is the most reasonable, untruthful prediction about when he will be ready to start practicing and when he will be ready to play.
This might be one decision I disagree with but I’m not the one holding the blueprints.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
It’s a 3rd rounder, if it doesn’t work out it doesn’t work out. But it has a better likelihood of working out than whoever we would be taking with the pick. There almost no risk here.
On the grand scheme of things, I agree . I am ok with the risk/reward. I’m just going to dip my toes into the excitement pool on this one.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
RE: Pardon me for asking, but is Waller currently healthy?
Or is he still injured and rehabbing?
If he is still injured, what is the most reasonable, untruthful prediction about when he will be ready to start practicing and when he will be ready to play.
He’s healthy. He returned for the last four games of the season
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
This might be one decision I disagree with but I’m not the one holding the blueprints.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
That's all fair.
Waller is easy to root for because of his struggles with addiction. He's been through some serious darkness in his life and has managed to come out the other side still in one piece and with a new perspective. And I admire his honestly in sharing his journey.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
Color me confused too. I see no opt-outs in his contract anywhere
it's fair to call this a risk - same as a hopkins or sutton trade
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is one thing that bothers me
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
Color me confused too. I see no opt-outs in his contract anywhere
Again. It’s mentioned in the linked article. Whether it’s true or not is a different story. As already mentioned by others, there is really nothing to worry about either. Darren Walker article - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is one thing that bothers me
Again. It’s mentioned in the linked article. Whether it’s true or not is a different story. As already mentioned by others, there is really nothing to worry about either. Darren Walker article - ( New Window )
The Giants can get out after this year with no dead money which is the opt out referenced. The author likely saw on sportrac that after this year there’s a “potential out” which is just how the site displays when a team can cut a player with little dead money for cap savings.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Lol fox news. Dumb ass writer is probably confusing the fact that he has no guarantees after 23, hence they can "opt out" of the deal and release him with no cap hit.
Be careful what you parrot, and always consider the source.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Don't think it's a player opt out. Pretty sure the Giants can opt out after this year without any dead money.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Don't think it's a player opt out. Pretty sure the Giants can opt out after this year without any dead money.
Yes that’s correct they can just cut him with no dead money. It’s not really a “clause” like the article suggests it’s just how it’s structured. As has been mentioned here they could try to restructure it to lower his cap hit this year.
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
With his 11M cap hit (which may or may not be lowered) and a bit highr injury risk , I really think this pushes us towards a younger receiver still on a rookie contract.
Jeudy, Pittman Jr, Aiyuk etc. Jeudy has this year and a 5th year option so he may be most ideal. Aiyuk too but he probably costs a #1.
RE: it's fair to call this a risk - same as a hopkins or sutton trade
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
I disagree on Bellinger. I think he could be at least a mid-level TE in this league. He already showed signs of being really good as a rookie and that position is hard to learn right away at the NFL level.
Waller is on what is effectively a year-to-year deal so the Giants can cut him loose if he doesn't work out. Glad we didn't go for Lazard and give a #3 WR $22 million guaranteed. I would probably pass on OBJ too because of the injury history, not because of his attitude. I don't care that OBJ isn't a Boy Scout, but I do care about that left knee being reconstructed twice
im not saying that doesnt have value, i like bellinger. he can be a quality tight end. i dont think he'll ever be a guy that keeps another team awake the night before the game. most 3rd/4th round picks aren't, which is why i dont mind trading them for a player like waller who does when the opportunity fits.
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
I disagree on Bellinger. I think he could be at least a mid-level TE in this league. He already showed signs of being really good as a rookie and that position is hard to learn right away at the NFL level.
Waller is on what is effectively a year-to-year deal so the Giants can cut him loose if he doesn't work out. Glad we didn't go for Lazard and give a #3 WR $22 million guaranteed. I would probably pass on OBJ too because of the injury history, not because of his attitude. I don't care that OBJ isn't a Boy Scout, but I do care about that left knee being reconstructed twice
I like Bellinger. He may have a bit more upside to him. But if u can improve position, u do it. Waller a match up nitemare. Almost shockey like if healthy. They will both be on the field quiet a bit since I bet Waller split out 1/2 the time.
Call Waller a TE or Call him a WR, He's an alpha receiver
His RAS score as a TE is 9.85. But since he's not really an inline TE and serves more a WR, his RAS score as a WR is 8.86. His 40 was 4.46. A 6'6 guy with 4.46 speed is dang fast and he's got hands and separation abilities. Where do you suppose you would draft a WR with that size and speed? That sounds like a top-10 player in the draft to me! And we got him for a late 3rd rounder because he's got injury concerns. If he had no injury concerns, do you really think we could get him for a 3rd rounder? This was a steal and Daniel Jones will be thrilled to have him.
Waller has four years and $52.5 million remaining on his contract. His $11 million salary this year is the only guarantee the Giants inherit. Waller will count $12.4 million on the Giants’ cap, per OverTheCap.com. The Giants do have the ability to convert Waller’s base salary to signing bonus, spreading out the cap hit over those remaining four years, if they wish to create more cap space for this year.
listed already.
Not sure I get that it lists Waller as getting a $1.275 mill roster bonus per game - that just is not correct. Is he getting 1/17 of $1.275 mill per game - is that the total he can earn in the season?
It’s hit/miss. If he stays healthy, great weapon for DJ.
Hes 31+. Played 9 games last year, 11 the one before. We’ll see how he fares. But healthy? No question I like it.
The health concerns are baked into the cost to acquire him though. If he had no health concerns, you probably have to give up a first. A classic buy low.
It’s hit/miss. If he stays healthy, great weapon for DJ.
Hes 31+. Played 9 games last year, 11 the one before. We’ll see how he fares. But healthy? No question I like it.
The health concerns are baked into the cost to acquire him though. If he had no health concerns, you probably have to give up a first. A classic buy low.
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
If he opts out for a better contract, we should get a comp pick - maybe a 3rd round comp pick.
good day for the Giants. If Waller is healthy he will be a huge
About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
If he opts out for a better contract, we should get a comp pick - maybe a 3rd round comp pick.
He cannot opt out. The Giants can cut him with little impact, but he cannot just walk away.
asset for the offense. Dust off that old Giants TE seam play!
Sy' likes it, says huge for this offense, compares Waller to....EE in terms of skill set, e.g., Giants are not getting him for his in-line blocking role, but cites 'sure hands' !! Will be extra interesting to see where JS/BB and Kafka want to go from here in the receiver group.
What happened to him the last few years? It's not like Carr isn't a good passer. I've followed Waller closely for the past 3 years as I've had him on my keeper team in fantasy.
He went from a bonafide TE1 to a JAG. Someone who's targets went down drastically and who caught a lower % of passes he was thrown. Even when healthy he's been a shell of himself. Why?
This trade isn't without risk, but I certainly understand and like the move. If we can figure out what happened, we have a real threat in the passing game. Big body, long arms, good routes.
i like this trade but wouldn't expect massive numbers from Waller.
To me, this is a low risk move to get another weapon in the offense to provide Jones some help over the middle. High upside player who doesn't cost much, and if he continues to get dinged up, they can move along.
Problem last few years with Waller has been nagging injuries.....
He’ll be 31 this year also, but hey Travis Kelce is 33 and so you can still be a huge target in the passing game at his age, which to me is not a big deal. Keeping him on the field is and probably the primary reason for his drop off in production too. I like the move and time will tell how it works, of course, but I’m starting to see the offense take some shape now.
RE: Sorry if German...may be buried in this very long thread
You are not wrong here. McDaniels is total crap when it comes to relationships. He is not going to make it. He's kind of the Russell Wilson of HCs. He assumes he knows what to do at the level above him because he's had so much success, but he clearly does not know how to work it and it takes its toll in expense with his relationships with others.
This is Joe Judge's and Pencil ear's problem too.
Daboll seems to be an exception to the rule coming for the same coaching tree.
he STILL trails only Kelce and Andrews for receptions and yards in the last 3 year. He can be dominant. No brainer for a sandwich pick between the third and fourth rounds.
You are not wrong here. McDaniels is total crap when it comes to relationships. He is not going to make it. He's kind of the Russell Wilson of HCs. He assumes he knows what to do at the level above him because he's had so much success, but he clearly does not know how to work it and it takes its toll in expense with his relationships with others.
This is Joe Judge's and Pencil ear's problem too.
Daboll seems to be an exception to the rule coming for the same coaching tree.
Daboll had significant experience in the Bill Parcells line as OC for Eric Mangini, Tony Sparano Sr., and Romeo Crennel. Let's not forget that Joe Schoen's first management role was under Bill Parcells (before that he was an Area Scout).
Fucking fanTASTIC
Schoen
We
Fucking
Trust
Out-fucking-standing
Time to earn your $$$ Giants training staff.
. - ( New Window )
We need the top 2 picks to fill OL/DT/LB/CB.
And I hope LW gave back enough to extend Sexy Dexy and this.
So JG is throwing to Meyers and?
In 12 games last year (11 starts), Bellinger caught 30 passes for 268 yards and two TDs.
Cap impact?
Apparently makes one a pollyanna.
But...
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Field Yates
@FieldYates
Darren Waller is under contract for 4 more seasons. Here’s what the Giants owe him:
2023: $11M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2024: $10.525M salary, 200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2025: $11.525M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
2026: $13.525M salary, $200K workout bonus, up to $1.25M in per-game bonuses
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In 12 games last year (11 starts), Bellinger caught 30 passes for 268 yards and two TDs.
Cool. in 2019-20 he had 197 catches, 2300 yards and 12 TD's
AND Toney helped beat the Eagles. Win-win-win!
Oh well, I trust in Schoen
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Sad as the BBI Mock Draft GM for the Giants that I have one less draft pick to play with, but I think I'll live.
Yea seems high to me too. Like the signing. Don't love the dollars but apparently his guarenteeds left aren't high $
fucking 4D chess
Since the signing bonus is absorbed against Las Vegas's cap we can restructure the entire remaining balance however we feel like assuming Waller agrees.
31 in Sept
We need the top 2 picks to fill OL/DT/LB/CB.
And I hope LW gave back enough to extend Sexy Dexy and this.
So JG is throwing to Meyers and?
Davante Adams....
Hunter renfrow...
For a late, very late 3rd? Why not.
3 years ago!
jk - I think.
Oh well, I trust in Schoen
I feel similar.
Hopefully I’m wrong.
Desperately needed a vertical threat and I trust this staff to leverage that.
Plus I think for Jones skillset a guy like Waller is a bigger difference maker than an outside receiver.
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
My guess is the Giants pivoted to trading for a receiving TE when they couldn't trade for a WR.
Schoen
We
Fucking
Trust
Worries me because that saying reminds me of Reese.
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a 3rd rounder for a 31 year-old(in Sept)?
Oh well, I trust in Schoen
I feel similar.
Hopefully I’m wrong.
Me too, but as I said, I trust in Schoen
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
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Vertical threat from TE is a big time asset for an offense - Waller is one of maybe 5 TE in league that is a credible vertical threat
Sy', thanks: he's long and he can be vertical. Can he block like a TE?
As a blocker - he is a taller/longer Engram
One rumor is he was really tight with Carr and was super pissed about how they handled that entire ordeal last season
Anyone else coming to the party lol
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Didn't he have injury/concussion issues?
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
No it’s not. Bennett had a heckuva year for us before leaving in FA
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Anybody else we should be keeping an eye on? Thanks!
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
I agree. Seems that he's bit older and has started to breakdown.
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but what do we think LV was thinking to dump him for this price? I'm a little curious what LV thinks they are getting out of this deal.
One rumor is he was really tight with Carr and was super pissed about how they handled that entire ordeal last season
interesting. that's the bullish take. injury risk is my bearish "cloud attached to the silver lining" take.
He's a little older and off of a season where he missed some games, but the contract is flexible and he can make a massive impact if he returns to form.
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
At least the WNBA and NFL seasons don't overlap much.
If not, still probably provides as much value as Toney would have, or even the draft pick.
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
I'm laughing at the "H" you added to his name.
I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
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In comment 16063525 Sy'56 said:
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Vertical threat from TE is a big time asset for an offense - Waller is one of maybe 5 TE in league that is a credible vertical threat
Sy', thanks: he's long and he can be vertical. Can he block like a TE?
As a blocker - he is a taller/longer Engram
So you're saying he can't block huh??
Lol
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
Hmm - good point. No guarantees after this season...
They may still draft a TE but now the pressure is off, they can draft a developmental guy with upside on Day 3.
CB looks like a draft priority this year.
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
^This. Brilliant addition to the offense.
Credit to Grit, mentioned above...you were on this days ago. Ok big whoop, who ya got next? Lol.
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It’s for no more than the KC picks, if that.
We need the top 2 picks to fill OL/DT/LB/CB.
And I hope LW gave back enough to extend Sexy Dexy and this.
So JG is throwing to Meyers and?
Davante Adams....
Hunter renfrow...
Thanks. Somehow forgot about Adams.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
I agree. Seems that he's bit older and has started to breakdown.
that's why it was only a comp 3rd
One great season 3 years ago... ignores previous 90 catch, 1100 yard season.
He has little wear on the tires... he barely played before 2019. He was out of football because of addiction to painkillers but went to rehab and turned his life around.
Like with so many of these guys, if they can play, the deal is great. If he plays 9 games not so much.
Link - ( New Window )
Like with so many of these guys, if they can play, the deal is great. If he plays 9 games not so much.
Given the Giants two year injury luck, that's the entire team you can say that for.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
Keep Toney.
Use the 3rd round comp pick.
Trade the comp pick for Waller and a sixth.
I'll take door #3 please.
Exactly..There are other ways to make the point. This is not one of them..😎
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
my post was not to suggest that he is a HOF'er, and was simply about age not being a huge factor at the TE position.
I thought you could have put two and two together.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
Or outright WR role...
He would be less injured.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
There's no argument for this. He's not a better blocker and has no production.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
At what, checkers?
Just want to point out that Kelce has missed less games in his entire career than Waller has in the past 2 years.
I'm totally cool with this trade though. This is going to be fun.
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In comment 16063565 Poktown Pete said:
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
He's also never had Kafka or Daboll coaching him.
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So he was sidelined by significant injury?
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Good point re typical 31 year-old
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
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604 catches from age 31 to 37. 86 catches a year.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
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In comment 16063575 DefenseWins said:
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
my post was not to suggest that he is a HOF'er, and was simply about age not being a huge factor at the TE position.
I thought you could have put two and two together.
Sorry went over my head
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it?
Link - ( New Window )
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Flexibility is a big part of both the offense and defense under Dabes.
We can if all these guys are worried about his age, which has been the only comparison Ive seen
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
I'm laughing at the "H" you added to his name.
Why are you putting so much emphasis on the H? Cool (h)whip. Jason (H)witten.
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In comment 16063568 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 16063565 Poktown Pete said:
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
He's also never had Kafka or Daboll coaching him.
Ain't gonna help if he can't stay on the field.
his contract also seems very easy to convert salary to a signing bonus to free up more space if they need to
and this guy when healthy, which is the key, is a true #1 weapon in the passing game
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Obsessed with age because he's stating a fact? It's something to take into consideration. He's not young anymore, and I think he has the highest per year contract for a TE. You also have to consider his injury history. This is a good deal with plenty of upside for the Giants, but IMO this isn't a slam dunk home run type deal.
I'm sure we still draft a WR low, but arguably we don't NEED to in rd1 now. Good job filling holes - let's see what's coming for C/S - not expecting big names/$, but solid lower price guys (which could mean Love, maybe Feliciano coming back and drafting a C, or S).
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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Didn't he have injury/concussion issues?
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
No it’s not. Bennett had a heckuva year for us before leaving in FA
55 catches 625 yards and 5 TD's.
That's 2009 Kevin Boss numbers
The flexibility .... red zone weapon ... Nice!!!!
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
YoY I think you're right about Hill. But Reid's had years where he was in 12 30% of the time. It's a staple he's utilized when he's had the talent.
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In comment 16063592 DCOrange said:
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604 catches from age 31 to 37. 86 catches a year.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
Sure, ideally, I always want to build with young talent. Not always possible, I know..My concern was more about giving up a 3rd for a guy who was soon to be 31 and coming off injuries (albeit and thankfully not serious ones), than age per se. But as I said a few times on here, I trust Schoen
Damn... do I still have that Jerry Reese pictore on my PC?
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think that's a reference to the 6th we already got, in the Toney trade.
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In comment 16063608 Milton said:
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
I never liked Bennett. Always thought he was overrated by BBI. And it didn't surprise me that he was "one and done" with the Giants in his ten year career that spanned five teams. Eli was not sorry to see him go.
Overrated by BBI? Sure. A lot of fanatics on this site who overrate our 3rd string left guard. That's what we're here for. You don't like Bennett, that's fine. But you can't say Daniel Bellinger is better than him, especially if you compare the 1 year team totals against each other.
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
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In comment 16063557 BigBlue7 said:
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In comment 16063546 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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Didn't he have injury/concussion issues?
Either way, I don't mind the trade. NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
That's an insult to Waller.
He's now our best TE since Shockey
No it’s not. Bennett had a heckuva year for us before leaving in FA
55 catches 625 yards and 5 TD's.
That's 2009 Kevin Boss numbers
He had a heckuva year both receiving AND blocking. He was an hellacious blocker
Sorry went over my head
That's okay... have a great day BB56
Nobody thinks Waller has had the career Witten or Gonzalez had. Its merely to say that TEs may have a longer shelf life.
Also, from a sheer talent perspective (again, talent alone, not production), Waller as a receiving tight end is in the argument with anyone.
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Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
got the sixth when they traded Toney away. Stapleton is just putting both together. After the draft they’ll say giants traded Toney and it turned into Waller and (player drafted in the 6th)
Ah ok, thanks.
I disagree with folks who think this doesn't necessitate a WR add in draft still, if anything I think it heightens likelihood they will draft perhaps both WR/TE.
You are not being greedy. Giants know he is a bit of an injury risk and are probably ok since it is essentially a year to year contract.
They almost assuredly are still going to get a vet WR added to the mix.
They don't need to be a 5k plus pass team and with adding a good WR in the draft and what they have with this addition they can certainly hit 4k plus.
The OL will need to a big step to make this work and I would not be surprised if they look at a IOL early this draft.
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a player still on his rookie contract.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
We got a 6th for Toney. Think that's what he means.
OTC also has another chart following cash flow that he is only due 5.4 this year. Not sure what that means.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
I agree this does not take us out on TE in this draft, especially on Day 3. It's a position that sometimes takes an entire rookie contract to develop and Waller is probably only here for 3 of those remaining 4 years - I think we're going to restructure the shit a couple of times and dummy his last year. Also, if we're highlighting 12 and 13 they're going to need a guy that could get some looks.
It feels a lot like 2005.
They sure are. It's all over social media. They must really like this guy...like alot.
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I watched lot of Vegas last two seasons and he's in clear physical decline.
That is upsetting if true. He was a great player, he has not been durable the last few years, but I think it is worth the risk. Not as much a slam dunk as others seem to think, but if we can get a productive tight end and play some 12 formation with decent results--this is a win. Time will tell.
Yup. It's a worthy risk even if just one season, hopefully squeeze two. He has dimensions/skillset that can change an offense as a threat and this way not a ton of pressure on a rookie WR, buys time for Wandale to come back. But he has to stay on the field.
Two TE sets with Bellinger have some appeal.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
I am very high on having two TE's as a matchup nightmare on slower LBs and smaller DB's so the Giants are thinking this right.
@SharpFootball
Daniel Jones on early down attempts
from 12 personnel:
+0.30 EPA/att (#7)
9.3 YPA (#4)
53% success (#12)
85% comp (#3) on 48 att
from 11 personnel:
+0.06 EPA/att (#15)
6.9 YPA (#20)
46% success (#23)
69% comp (#10) on 295 att
Darren Waller allows Daboll/Kafka to use more 12
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1635718081916829699 - ( New Window )
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In comment 16063619 CornerStone246+17 said:
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a player still on his rookie contract.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
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..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
I believe that.
So why did the Raiders trade him? Was this financial?
Hah! Force multiplier. How dare you steal BW's schtick!!
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..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017
It's more of an homage, really
I prefer 11 over 10 as a base-ish personnel.
(not to you directly, just this post reminded me of others) Remember when the Giants weren't going to be able to build a team because DJ stole all their money?
Pepp farm remembers...
So NYG signed a highly touted LB. TRaded for a highly touted and decently highly paid TE. A decent paid DT. And probably more to come.
Apologies accepted. TIA.
As many have mentioned, there is, however, a serious issue with availability. Can't remember the last time Waller has come close to playing a full season.
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In comment 16063700 BillKo said:
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..and also the makeup. Hasn't he had some personal issues?
HE's overcome a lot in his life. Not sure the details but he's been a good player and character guy in Oakland. No reason to think he won't be the same locker room leader here. The Raiders loved him.
He struggled with addiction, there’s a Hard Knocks on it. He’s been sober since 2017
That's where I saw it then.
I'm all for rooting for guys like this....just worried about the age amongst the obvious but the Giants probably looked at all the draftable TEs and thought for that third rounder, this was their best option.
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In comment 16063626 halfback20 said:
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In comment 16063619 CornerStone246+17 said:
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a player still on his rookie contract.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
Yes, if you want the contract to guarantee money after this season, which it does not. He has 4 years left with a base of about $11 mill per, but only $8.25 mill is guaranteed and on this year's contract.
8.25 is guaranteed now but on friday the rest of his 2023 salary(2.75) becomes guaranteed. You can convert his salary to a bonus and drop his cap hit to 3-3.5 mil for this year and create 8.25 in dead money after this year.
It is still $11 mill this year and nothing after...I think I would wait until mid-season before tweaking his contract to see how he does before guaranteeing anything else.
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
This is going to be nice for SB as well.
At least the WNBA and NFL seasons don't overlap much.
Kelsey could just ask to play for the Liberty LOL…if you’ve seen her you know Waller is winning in the game of life as well as football.
Great trade by Schoen but only concern is Waller’s injury history
At least the problem last year was just a hammy......
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
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24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
That's awesome!
link - ( New Window )
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
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24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Time to bring Odell home...
Link - ( New Window )
Indeed
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
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24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Do we have cap space?
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
No 6th round pick... it was a misinterpretation of a tweet from a report that we basically traded toney for waller and a 6th... they are not sending a 6 back to the giants in this trade.
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
No 6th round pick... it was a misinterpretation of a tweet from a report that we basically traded toney for waller and a 6th... they are not sending a 6 back to the giants in this trade.
Ok thanks.
Waller was dinged up the last 2 seasons but still saw his YPC in 2022 reach a career high with 13.9. He's 30. This is a guy that caught 90 passes in 2019 and 107 in 2020. We got him for very little. Let's fucking go.
Waller - ( New Window )
OMG I love this!!! Joe and Dabs are cooking!!! Waller and Bellinger add a couple of more speed guys on outsdie -offense looking potent now!!
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
What Stapleton was saying was that IN EFFECT we traded Toney for Waller a d the 6th we got from KC
And I've got a used Mercedes to sell you. (Not Lewis).
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
Good info there.
Low risk moves on shepard and waller with exceptional upside. Nothing really lost if these guys can't get healthy, and there's no one in the WR or TE market that can do what they do as well without a significant trade.
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
What Stapleton was saying was that IN EFFECT we traded Toney for Waller a d the 6th we got from KC
Gotcha. OK makes sense. Thanks
James signed?
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if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
Agreed, no financial risk. Only in-season injury risk. But we’ve been dealing with that for ages including 22 year old rookies so it is what it is at this point.
Not without major improvement from Neal. Remember we also lost Gates and he hasn’t been replaced (yet) so net/net you can say at this stage our line as is is worse.
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In comment 16063777 UConn4523 said:
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if this was aged 27/28 Waller he wouldn’t net a 3rd - perspective. We just added the most explosive pass catcher since prime Beckham. There’s risk, but it’s low. Great deal.
I don’t see any risk. They trade a 3rd which they got for Toney for a high upside TE. There is no guaranteed money after 2023. Brilliant move.
Agreed, no financial risk. Only in-season injury risk. But we’ve been dealing with that for ages including 22 year old rookies so it is what it is at this point.
Yeah, it’s like we get or draft someone, they tweak whatever at OTAs or Camp and they’re “day to day” and suddenly it’s game 4 or 5 before they make their initial appearance. Uncanny.
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough?
Trade - ( New Window )
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
This is exactly the point. He is a wide receiver with an elite talent ceiling who can play in line tight end. But he is paid like an above average tight end, not an elite wide receiver. Exactly the kind of economic calculus needed for this team to progress in 2023.
Now we should bring in a vet WR and hopefully draft a WR1
Fix the IOL and im really liking our offense going into the season!
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You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
I wanted D Washington in the draft for this reason. 12 Personnel is key to getting some easy playcalling. Washington MOVES people in the run game. LT body that runs 4.6 and is 6'7"
I've thought the most likely outcome was the Giants invest at TE either in first wave UFA or premium draft pick exactly for that reason.
I'm excited by this move.
Well if there's one organization whose medical staff can help reverse that trend, it's not us.
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Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
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24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Do we have cap space?
uh yes?
KG will free up over 6 mil. You still have a leo and adoree extension (both can and should happen). You have a barkely LTD and a Dex deal. The giants have plenty of money and can free more. money really isnt an issue here and if youre adding someone like jeudy, he is VERY affordable.
With us, that’s a big ask..😂
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
Well if there's one organization whose medical staff can help reverse that trend, it's not us.
LOL
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Maybe that eye injury makes him somewhat gun shy (despite now wearing the shield) and the coaches noticed it. In any event, the Giants now have the ability to go two TEs with two competent TEs.
This is going to be nice for SB as well.
True that.
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
This article says there is an opt out clause after this year. Does anyone know is it the teams option or the players option for opt out? I assume it’s the players option.
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In comment 16063775 Danny Kanell said:
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
This article says there is an opt out clause after this year. Does anyone know is it the teams option or the players option for opt out? I assume it’s the players option.
Good question. The article is unclear. I also assume it's the player's option but I did a little research and didn't see an answer. Of course if he opts out, at his age, he may not do as well as the contract.
The Giants are better team on offense with Waller after yesterday getting better on defense
Aggressive moves by Schoen.
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
So apparently just the player for a third, and no sixth back to us.
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Hope they are ok with a long-distance relationship.
At least the WNBA and NFL seasons don't overlap much.
Kelsey could just ask to play for the Liberty LOL…if you’ve seen her you know Waller is winning in the game of life as well as football.
Great trade by Schoen but only concern is Waller’s injury history
Ionescu for Plum?!
Chiming in with the others, I hope he's healthy.
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In comment 16063775 Danny Kanell said:
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Can someone confirm the deal is:
Waller and the Raiders' 6th rd pick for the Giants 100th overall pick.
This good enough? Trade - ( New Window )
So apparently just the player for a third, and no sixth back to us.
Correct.
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Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
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24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Do we have cap space?
If the Saints got cap space we sure as hell can have space. League opens on Wednesday.. if there were restructures or pay cuts you know then.
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In comment 16063757 Dave in Hoboken said:
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Giants Daily
@NYGDaily
·
24m
"They are not done yet." - @diannaESPN on #Giants adding more skill players (WRs).
Do we have cap space?
If the Saints got cap space we sure as hell can have space. League opens on Wednesday.. if there were restructures or pay cuts you know then.
Folks continue to not understand the cap. If you want a player there is always a way to make it work.
You could not cover him.
Slowed by injuries the last two years but I still think this is a great deal. Waller plays fast and he is a big, strong dude. Nobody wants to tackle him.
I think we are going to see some Eagle-like TE screens with Mr Waller. I think Daboll and Joe S saw Eagles run over the Giants CBs and DBs and are looking to do the same.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
If he is healthy this is a big impact.
You could not cover him.
Slowed by injuries the last two years but I still think this is a great deal. Waller plays fast and he is a big, strong dude. Nobody wants to tackle him.
I think we are going to see some Eagle-like TE screens with Mr Waller. I think Daboll and Joe S saw Eagles run over the Giants CBs and DBs and are looking to do the same.
He was unstoppable for sure. But we're getting the 2023 Darren Waller, not the 2020 version.
Let's put it this way, his fantasy stock plummeted this year. So, while there is upside, we should temper the enthusiasm.
As many have mentioned, there is, however, a serious issue with availability. Can't remember the last time Waller has come close to playing a full season.
Google can be your friend; last full season was 2020, when he caught 107 passes. Caught 90 the year before...
As others have already said - this really opens things up on the offense; he can line up all over the field, giving the offense a much needed weapon...
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So he was sidelined by significant injury?
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
He is listed at 238 on NFL.com. The Raiders site lists him at 255. So who knows. Injuries wear on the body much more than playing.
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As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
Don't we also have Nick Varnett on the roster at 6'5 257??
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As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
I doubt this means the end of Cager. Lots of teams carry 3 TE. Cager will still have plenty of opportunities. Especially if Waller continues to show durability issues
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As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
I was alluding to the fact that he was a WR and buried on practice squads until 2019. Injuries are a risk/concern, which is why it only cost us the 100th pick when they were asking for a 2 from the Packers at the last deadline.
I don't think it means the end of Cager, they're probably carrying 4 TEs if they plan on featuring multiple TE looks. He'll have to compete for sure.
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In comment 16063585 AcesUp said:
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As most 30 year old NFL players. Injuries are a risk/concern but no transaction we could make would be 100% clean.
He doesn't have the same mileage? Injuries add up to more mileage than playing. Waller has had a patella tendon sprain, a concussion (in 2015), 3 hamstring injuries including two last year (coincidentally traded for the Toney draft pick), a sprained shoulder, fractured thumb, 2 knee strains, and 2 ankle injuries.
Not saying he is Waller, but this also means the end for Cager, who is 6-5 220, versus Waller's 6-6 225. Neither is a good blocker. Both are good receivers (Cager had 18 catches in 6 games, 3 starts). And Cager is 5 years younger, has no injury concerns, and is much cheaper. His 40 times was the upper 4.5s, while Waller's was up 4.4s. Was hoping he could develop. But he's likely gone now.
I doubt this means the end of Cager. Lots of teams carry 3 TE. Cager will still have plenty of opportunities. Especially if Waller continues to show durability issues
You would have to think that the third tight end would be someone with top blocking skills.
Will be interesting to see how he and Jones work together
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In comment 16063576 Fan_in_Philly2 said:
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Hope they are ok with a long-distance relationship.
At least the WNBA and NFL seasons don't overlap much.
Kelsey could just ask to play for the Liberty LOL…if you’ve seen her you know Waller is winning in the game of life as well as football.
Great trade by Schoen but only concern is Waller’s injury history
Ionescu for Plum?!
Chiming in with the others, I hope he's healthy.
Can Kelsey Plum play WR, when she is not playing hoops?
I like this move for Waller, very athletic, would like to see him add a few pounds to that frame.
Not criticizing this move at all. I like the trade! I just don't understand why they wouldn't have spent similar or slightly more (with the bonus) for Shultz who is younger and ascending (assuming he would have signed here).
I know Waller has been very good. Is he clearly above Shultz likely ceiling? Can someone help me grasp how this is a better move than signing Shultz would have been?
Either way, I am really happy we have a TE1. Our TE position is now at least solid, probably going to be a strength.
@art_stapleton
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27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
I think folks are mis-reading this (or I could be): Stapleton is simply referring to the intial consideration for trade of Toney to KC: its compensatory 3rd and a 6th, it's the same 6th as we got for Toney. Art is combining the '22 + '23 consideration
Schoen identified a need, found a good deal and jumped on it. Waiting usually doesn’t work well.
yep, just getting to your post now...late as usual
We don't know where Schultz comes in but he's going to be 2x in guarantees on Waller's 10 at a minimum. Potentially up to 3x if he can get Kittle/Andrews money. That's significant.
Also, the Giants needed an offensive weapon. Not just another TE. While Schultz is a threat as a receiver, he doesn't challenge defenses like Waller does when he's healthy. They're different players and we were really lacking a couple key elements from Waller's game in our skill group.
32% slot
23% wide (24% in his 2 best 1k+ yard seasons)
44% inline
last year he actually played in the slot 62% of the time and inline just 17%.
my guess is with bellinger they can afford to move waller around the formation a lot like the chiefs do with kelce. and he has that kind of receiving ability to get himself open that probably no TE other than kelce has. Kelce is also plays slot (44%) and wide (30%) more than inline (26%).
so for 11m per year and a a very late 3rd, the nyg took a chance on an injury prone guy but one who has impact upside at a cheaper price than any other WRs out there.
also with him and hodgins they now have 2 bigger targets. which makes it that much easier to out and add smaller/faster/explosive targets (not unlike Wandale).
good analysis, not sure I agree with the Wan'Dale part. But for sure it takes some pressure off having to go WR earlier than his and BB's board dictate for their highest rated on their board.
Ryan Dunleavy just suggested Giants fans read it to learn about Waller as he opens up to Serby.
Link - ( New Window )
Pat McAfee on Waller trade - ( New Window )
I'm not actually debbie downer on this, just not gonna inhale the koolaid. I hope this leads to a lot of creative schemes 2 TE and 3 TE schemes. It's great that we were able to get DJ at least one weapon before the draft as well.
As for what we got him for, a late 3 I think is a good deal for him.
I'm not actually debbie downer on this, just not gonna inhale the koolaid. I hope this leads to a lot of creative schemes 2 TE and 3 TE schemes. It's great that we were able to get DJ at least one weapon before the draft as well.
As for what we got him for, a late 3 I think is a good deal for him.
He’s off the books in one year if it doesn’t work out. No dead cap hit after 2023. Great deal, trade a literally end of third round pick for a guy with top 5 TE potential and can either keep him for four years or cut him after one if their not happy.
Raiders’ trade grade: B
Link - ( New Window )
Oh well, I trust in Schoen
BB - If somebody is one day over 30 you do not want them. 30 is the new 20 bro.
I'd rather save the money for a "just as shiny penny" somewhere else. If the guy can stay healthy, it's win for sure!
I'm neutral on this trade I guess.
I'd rather save the money for a "just as shiny penny" somewhere else. If the guy can stay healthy, it's win for sure!
I'm neutral on this trade I guess.
I’m kind of on the same page but he can line up all over the field. So this move essentially ensures the big WR everyone wanted who’s way more talented than anything likely to hit the market at WR at a reasonable cost.
The Athletic - ( New Window )
Again he needs to stay healthy
Schoen surprised me with this trade as I was confident he was going to draft a TE in the deep TE class
No complaints here.
Again he needs to stay healthy
Schoen surprised me with this trade as I was confident he was going to draft a TE in the deep TE class
No complaints here.
Pro bowl player NOW for essentially a 4th rnd pick, less miles on the wheels rehabbing. We could get some serious production the next 3-4 years. Better than having to teach up an unknowen rookie. They needed immediate help. He could also show Bellinger a thing or two.
We dont know whats in the contract yet.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story..
Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
It’s a 3rd rounder, if it doesn’t work out it doesn’t work out. But it has a better likelihood of working out than whoever we would be taking with the pick. There almost no risk here.
If he is still injured, what is the most reasonable, untruthful prediction about when he will be ready to start practicing and when he will be ready to play.
And people still bitch and moan
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This might be one decision I disagree with but I’m not the one holding the blueprints.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
It’s a 3rd rounder, if it doesn’t work out it doesn’t work out. But it has a better likelihood of working out than whoever we would be taking with the pick. There almost no risk here.
On the grand scheme of things, I agree . I am ok with the risk/reward. I’m just going to dip my toes into the excitement pool on this one.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
If he is still injured, what is the most reasonable, untruthful prediction about when he will be ready to start practicing and when he will be ready to play.
He’s healthy. He returned for the last four games of the season
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
I don’t know much about Waller’s personality in the room or his intelligence.
I know Toney was a disaster and I would have rid him out of the room, and I was happy we got a 3rd round pick to move forward with another young player.
But we just signed a 31 year old who has has not really played consistently for 2 years and last year he had hamstrings issues. There are some comments out there on the interwebs that some fans questioned if he was even really hurt.
I’m happy that we can at least get out of the contract that if it goes bad but I think I would have kept the pick. I was personally hoping that we could package our 3rds and get back into the second for another young prospect,
As a fan I hope things works out and I hope this risk works out. This does send a stronger message than I expected about competing this year.
That's all fair.
Waller is easy to root for because of his struggles with addiction. He's been through some serious darkness in his life and has managed to come out the other side still in one piece and with a new perspective. And I admire his honestly in sharing his journey.
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In comment 16064204 NYG07 said:
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
Color me confused too. I see no opt-outs in his contract anywhere
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
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In comment 16064206 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 16064204 NYG07 said:
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
I am not worried about that. Assuming Dexter Lawrence gets a new contract, if Waller has a great year and opts out, we can just tag him at a very reasonable price.
Are we sure he can opt out? I know NY can cut him with no consequences, but I’m not aware he can opt out as well.
I don’t know where this came from. There’s no mention anywhere of him being able to opt out.
Color me confused too. I see no opt-outs in his contract anywhere
Again. It’s mentioned in the linked article. Whether it’s true or not is a different story. As already mentioned by others, there is really nothing to worry about either.
Darren Walker article - ( New Window )
Again. It’s mentioned in the linked article. Whether it’s true or not is a different story. As already mentioned by others, there is really nothing to worry about either. Darren Walker article - ( New Window )
The Giants can get out after this year with no dead money which is the opt out referenced. The author likely saw on sportrac that after this year there’s a “potential out” which is just how the site displays when a team can cut a player with little dead money for cap savings.
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Lol fox news. Dumb ass writer is probably confusing the fact that he has no guarantees after 23, hence they can "opt out" of the deal and release him with no cap hit.
Be careful what you parrot, and always consider the source.
This deal is awesome if he’s healthy and not a killer if he’s not
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Don't think it's a player opt out. Pretty sure the Giants can opt out after this year without any dead money.
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In comment 16064165 bLiTz 2k said:
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In comment 16064154 SJGiant said:
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
Not saying this isn't true, but where does it say he has an opt out? Even if he does, he's very well compensated and at his age any potential divorce from the Giants in 2024 would be from the team. No way he's opting out and testing free agency at 32 when he has a very good deal already.
No one's talking about it because it's a non issue.
Here is the reference to the opt out. Whether it’s true is a different story.. Darren Waller article - ( New Window )
Don't think it's a player opt out. Pretty sure the Giants can opt out after this year without any dead money.
Yes that’s correct they can just cut him with no dead money. It’s not really a “clause” like the article suggests it’s just how it’s structured. As has been mentioned here they could try to restructure it to lower his cap hit this year.
1:11 mark - ( New Window )
Nice find.
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
With his 11M cap hit (which may or may not be lowered) and a bit highr injury risk , I really think this pushes us towards a younger receiver still on a rookie contract.
Jeudy, Pittman Jr, Aiyuk etc. Jeudy has this year and a 5th year option so he may be most ideal. Aiyuk too but he probably costs a #1.
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
I disagree on Bellinger. I think he could be at least a mid-level TE in this league. He already showed signs of being really good as a rookie and that position is hard to learn right away at the NFL level.
Waller is on what is effectively a year-to-year deal so the Giants can cut him loose if he doesn't work out. Glad we didn't go for Lazard and give a #3 WR $22 million guaranteed. I would probably pass on OBJ too because of the injury history, not because of his attitude. I don't care that OBJ isn't a Boy Scout, but I do care about that left knee being reconstructed twice
It’s hit/miss. If he stays healthy, great weapon for DJ.
Hes 31+. Played 9 games last year, 11 the one before. We’ll see how he fares. But healthy? No question I like it.
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all 3 may or may not still be in prime years.
but same as those guys the risk is hedged against disaster because he doesn't have much guaranteed money. if you are giving lazard or obj 20m+ guaranteed that extra $10m+ dead money risk is riskier than giving up a pick.
last year they drafted bellinger and belton right around pick #100 and as much as they flashed they are probably replacement level players. giving up picks like that arent the end of the world, and for the upside of a real impact player it's worth it. and you can certainly buy a handful of replacement level vets for the dead money you save by not giving out a UFA deal.
the question im bouncing back and forth on is whether it would have been better to get hockenson at the deadline. i think waller is the better player but obviously carries a lot more mileage/injury risk.
I disagree on Bellinger. I think he could be at least a mid-level TE in this league. He already showed signs of being really good as a rookie and that position is hard to learn right away at the NFL level.
Waller is on what is effectively a year-to-year deal so the Giants can cut him loose if he doesn't work out. Glad we didn't go for Lazard and give a #3 WR $22 million guaranteed. I would probably pass on OBJ too because of the injury history, not because of his attitude. I don't care that OBJ isn't a Boy Scout, but I do care about that left knee being reconstructed twice
I like Bellinger. He may have a bit more upside to him. But if u can improve position, u do it. Waller a match up nitemare. Almost shockey like if healthy. They will both be on the field quiet a bit since I bet Waller split out 1/2 the time.
Waller has four years and $52.5 million remaining on his contract. His $11 million salary this year is the only guarantee the Giants inherit. Waller will count $12.4 million on the Giants’ cap, per OverTheCap.com. The Giants do have the ability to convert Waller’s base salary to signing bonus, spreading out the cap hit over those remaining four years, if they wish to create more cap space for this year.
Not sure I get that it lists Waller as getting a $1.275 mill roster bonus per game - that just is not correct. Is he getting 1/17 of $1.275 mill per game - is that the total he can earn in the season?
It’s hit/miss. If he stays healthy, great weapon for DJ.
Hes 31+. Played 9 games last year, 11 the one before. We’ll see how he fares. But healthy? No question I like it.
The health concerns are baked into the cost to acquire him though. If he had no health concerns, you probably have to give up a first. A classic buy low.
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Can’t call it a HR.
It’s hit/miss. If he stays healthy, great weapon for DJ.
Hes 31+. Played 9 games last year, 11 the one before. We’ll see how he fares. But healthy? No question I like it.
The health concerns are baked into the cost to acquire him though. If he had no health concerns, you probably have to give up a first. A classic buy low.
Yup and agree
nice to see our new LB that far down field in coverage
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Defense wins... 1:11 mark - ( New Window )
nice to see our new LB that far down field in coverage
I think he’ll prove to be a steal..
If he opts out for a better contract, we should get a comp pick - maybe a 3rd round comp pick.
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About this trade that very few people are mentioning. It looks like Waller can opt out after one year. This then becomes a one year deal, almost like a rental.
If he opts out for a better contract, we should get a comp pick - maybe a 3rd round comp pick.
He cannot opt out. The Giants can cut him with little impact, but he cannot just walk away.
Waller can't opt out.
This is a great deal for the Giants.
Link - ( New Window )
He went from a bonafide TE1 to a JAG. Someone who's targets went down drastically and who caught a lower % of passes he was thrown. Even when healthy he's been a shell of himself. Why?
This trade isn't without risk, but I certainly understand and like the move. If we can figure out what happened, we have a real threat in the passing game. Big body, long arms, good routes.
To me, this is a low risk move to get another weapon in the offense to provide Jones some help over the middle. High upside player who doesn't cost much, and if he continues to get dinged up, they can move along.
Hmm... His new wife plays for Las Vegas in the WNBA.
You are not wrong here. McDaniels is total crap when it comes to relationships. He is not going to make it. He's kind of the Russell Wilson of HCs. He assumes he knows what to do at the level above him because he's had so much success, but he clearly does not know how to work it and it takes its toll in expense with his relationships with others.
This is Joe Judge's and Pencil ear's problem too.
Daboll seems to be an exception to the rule coming for the same coaching tree.
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I really don't see it working out for McDaniels.
You are not wrong here. McDaniels is total crap when it comes to relationships. He is not going to make it. He's kind of the Russell Wilson of HCs. He assumes he knows what to do at the level above him because he's had so much success, but he clearly does not know how to work it and it takes its toll in expense with his relationships with others.
This is Joe Judge's and Pencil ear's problem too.
Daboll seems to be an exception to the rule coming for the same coaching tree.
Daboll had significant experience in the Bill Parcells line as OC for Eric Mangini, Tony Sparano Sr., and Romeo Crennel. Let's not forget that Joe Schoen's first management role was under Bill Parcells (before that he was an Area Scout).