I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
Hmm - good point. No guarantees after this season...
I figured the Giants would want to bolster the TE corps and would look to draft a TE. But TE is hard position to learn. A rookie TE can't necessarily be counted on to contribute right away. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. So with Waller, they have a proven TE, not a rookie, to upgrade the TE room.
They may still draft a TE but now the pressure is off, they can draft a developmental guy with upside on Day 3.
I said, the Giants likely did this after not being able to trade for a WR, and maybe Schultz. They probably also know that Slayton is leaving. And look what happened to the offense after Bellinger got hurt? We need credible receiving threats. Despite his age and injury history, I much prefer this trade than trading a one or two for a WR.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
(as Sy said). What he can bring to the offense is a TON. He's a little older, has had some injury concerns, and they have to massage his salary a bit. But for a very late 3rd? Excellent!!
Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
One great season 3 years ago... ignores previous 90 catch, 1100 yard season.
He has little wear on the tires... he barely played before 2019. He was out of football because of addiction to painkillers but went to rehab and turned his life around.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
I wanted D Washington in the draft for this reason. 12 Personnel is key to getting some easy playcalling. Washington MOVES people in the run game. LT body that runs 4.6 and is 6'7"
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Good point re typical 31 year-old
RE: This move could indicate if we trade for a WR it will be
after this year. On friday his entire salary becomes guarenteed. if ita alreqdy guarenteed are we allowed to convert to a bounus and spread it out over the 4 years and drop his cap number to 3-3.5?
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Good trade. Some things to be concerned over:
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it? Link - ( New Window )
You can see the influence Kafka and the Reid system is having on team construction. There was a good discussion during the playoffs on how KC uses Kelce.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Agreed.
Flexibility is a big part of both the offense and defense under Dabes.
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
I think the the risk was worth it. The contract has zero cap impact if he is cut after 2023. And if it doesn't work out, the Giants are out a late (comp) 3rd round pick.
Hmm - good point. No guarantees after this season...
They may still draft a TE but now the pressure is off, they can draft a developmental guy with upside on Day 3.
CB looks like a draft priority this year.
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
^This. Brilliant addition to the offense.
Credit to Grit, mentioned above...you were on this days ago. Ok big whoop, who ya got next? Lol.
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It’s for no more than the KC picks, if that.
We need the top 2 picks to fill OL/DT/LB/CB.
And I hope LW gave back enough to extend Sexy Dexy and this.
So JG is throwing to Meyers and?
Davante Adams....
Hunter renfrow...
Thanks. Somehow forgot about Adams.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
I agree. Seems that he's bit older and has started to breakdown.
that's why it was only a comp 3rd
One great season 3 years ago... ignores previous 90 catch, 1100 yard season.
He has little wear on the tires... he barely played before 2019. He was out of football because of addiction to painkillers but went to rehab and turned his life around.
Like with so many of these guys, if they can play, the deal is great. If he plays 9 games not so much.
Link - ( New Window )
Like with so many of these guys, if they can play, the deal is great. If he plays 9 games not so much.
Given the Giants two year injury luck, that's the entire team you can say that for.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Yeah, he's playing a different position. You're not paying Waller to block and we don't have Jason Garrett here anymore square pegging personnel. This will be a heavy 12 offense but that doesn't mean we're playing smashmouth. The Chiefs pivoted to a pass-forward 12 and 13 offense this past season after moving on from Tyreek.
Keep Toney.
Use the 3rd round comp pick.
Trade the comp pick for Waller and a sixth.
I'll take door #3 please.
Exactly..There are other ways to make the point. This is not one of them..😎
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
my post was not to suggest that he is a HOF'er, and was simply about age not being a huge factor at the TE position.
I thought you could have put two and two together.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
Where'd you buy your rose-colored glasses?
Or outright WR role...
He would be less injured.
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
There's no argument for this. He's not a better blocker and has no production.
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NYG have just landed their best TE since Martellus Bennett.
Bellinger is better than Bennett.
At what, checkers?
Just want to point out that Kelce has missed less games in his entire career than Waller has in the past 2 years.
I'm totally cool with this trade though. This is going to be fun.
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In comment 16063565 Poktown Pete said:
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Dude missed 8 games last year and 6 the year before. He's 30 years old. One great season 3 years ago. Not getting overly excited.
He had back to back 1000 yard seasons.
With the other one even longer ago. And only 3 TD's that year. Seems like a lot to spend (3rd rounder). Not feeling it.
He's also never had Kafka or Daboll coaching him.
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So he was sidelined by significant injury?
6' 6" 228: he's long, can he block and control the edge? Curious minds....
Not sure where you got 228. He's up around 260.
The injuries were more lingering than "significant": hamstring and knee in 2022, after back and knee in 2021. Maybe he's wearing down on the wrong side of 30; but he hardly played at all before he blew up at age 27. So there isn't as much wear on his body as you might expect for a TE approaching his 31st birthday.
Good point re typical 31 year-old
Waller is year to year around 11M but that 11M , I don't think can be restructured into a significantly lower cap hit.
Could they not convert salary into bonus and spread it out over the life of the contract?
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604 catches from age 31 to 37. 86 catches a year.
Not even close to the takent TG was. He was one of the best ever and an incredible ATHLETE
Well your initial post was related to his age. As usual this offseason. You’re way too obsessed with age. Not every player on the team has to be 25 and under…
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In comment 16063575 DefenseWins said:
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In comment 16063536 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 16063529 The_Boss said:
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He’s 30. Hasn’t played a full season since 2020.
31 in Sept
Jason Whitten is laughing at the age posts. So are some of the other hall of fame TEs
He’s not JW or a HOFer
my post was not to suggest that he is a HOF'er, and was simply about age not being a huge factor at the TE position.
I thought you could have put two and two together.
Sorry went over my head
@art_stapleton
·
27m
Giants trading Kadarius Toney for Darren Waller and a sixth round pick has a different feel, doesn't it?
Link - ( New Window )
If you have a TE with legitimate vertical ability, you can start in 12 personnel, and then based on coverage, effectively move to 11. KC does this a ton with Kelce who took 30% of his snap from the slot. He acts and runs like a receiver.
Waller took 25% of his snaps from the slot last year, and I'd expect this to be closer to 30% this year.
I don't think this impacts Bellinger much. I think the Giants just run a bunch of 12 personnel.
Flexibility is a big part of both the offense and defense under Dabes.
We can if all these guys are worried about his age, which has been the only comparison Ive seen